Oklahoma liquor laws

The problem in Oklahoma seems to be there is not a strong coalition or movement supporting change. People can complain all they want about the liquor laws here but until there is a large voice supporting change, there is likely to be zero progress. There is however a strong coalition supporting keeping the laws the way they are. The religious right and the distributors have money and power and they will stop at nothing to prevent any kind of change to the liquor laws here.

This thread started back in 2010. Some bonded whiskey, that started at the same time, is probably ready to be bottled.

It looks like Arkansas may beat Oklahoma to the punch when it comes to establishing truly progressive, modern laws. It helps that the state has a couple of progressive bastions in Little Rock and Fayetteville - something Oklahoma does not have. It will be interesting to see if this passes. The rural areas of Arkansas in the western and northern part of the state are extremely conservative with a wide variety holding firmly to the idea that all alcohol consumption is sinful and should be banned. Those areas of the state are also where most of the dry counties are.

Arkansas Voters May Get to Decide on Minimum Wage, Alcohol Sales | Arkansas Business News | ArkansasBusiness.com

So, other than Sunday sales, exactly what is it you feel is so horrible about OKs laws? Besides wishing you could buy another bottle of Gentleman Jack on Easter, what life-shattering consumption need is not fullfillable? Plenty of more"progressive" states have odd laws, too.

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Originally Posted by mugofbeer

So, other than Sunday sales, exactly what is it you feel is so horrible about OKs laws? Besides wishing you could buy another bottle of Gentleman Jack on Easter, what life-shattering consumption need is not fullfillable? Plenty of more"progressive" states have odd laws, too.

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-Only 3.2 beer in grocery and convenience stores
-Package stores must close at 9PM
-Package stores must sell all product at room temperature
-Package stores cannot sell any items other than liquor (i.e. wine openers)

I honestly don't care about Sunday sales and feel that is actually the least backward part of Oklahoma's system.

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Originally Posted by bchris02

-Only 3.2 beer in grocery and convenience stores
-Package stores must close at 9PM
-Package stores must sell all product at room temperature
-Package stores cannot sell any items other than liquor (i.e. wine openers)

I honestly don't care about Sunday sales and feel that is actually the least backward part of Oklahoma's system.

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Who is this strong religious right lobby that you say is involved in this? Do they have meetings? Run ads? Name names and explain what they are doing, please. Specifically.

That's a good start. How about brew pubs (on premise) also being limited to 3.2abw. There's a reason why we literally have less than a handful in our entire state.

Breweries can't direct sell anything in excess of 3.2abw. They've only recently been able to even serve samples (12oz max).
Just compare the wine laws versus beer, the inequality there is laughable. There's no coincidence why there are 70 or 80 wineries and only a dozen or so breweries.

Have you read through this thread? I'm sure all the major topics have been mentioned several times over. The "4 tier" system in place here is a real killer and a monopoly and to be quite honest I can't see the brokers or distributors wanting the laws to change much.

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Originally Posted by bille

That's a good start. How about brew pubs (on premise) also being limited to 3.2abw. There's a reason why we literally have less than a handful in our entire state.

Breweries can't direct sell anything in excess of 3.2abw. They've only recently been able to even serve samples (12oz max).
Just compare the wine laws versus beer, the inequality there is laughable. There's no coincidence why there are 70 or 80 wineries and only a dozen or so breweries.

Have you read through this thread? I'm sure all the major topics have been mentioned several times over. The "4 tier" system in place here is a real killer and a monopoly and to be quite honest I can't see the brokers or distributors wanting the laws to change much.

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Agreed. The brewery thing is terrible. Could that be changed without a constitutional amendment the way the winery laws were changed?

I'm not sure why any of the pro-wine laws couldn't be modified to give parity with beer.

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Originally Posted by PennyQuilts

Who is this strong religious right lobby that you say is involved in this? Do they have meetings? Run ads? Name names and explain what they are doing, please. Specifically.

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Have you ever wondered why Utah has the strictest liquor laws in the country?

I'll give you a hint, it's not due to them catering to their Muslim population.

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Originally Posted by Buffalo Bill

Have you ever wondered why Utah has the strictest liquor laws in the country?

I'll give you a hint, it's not due to them catering to their Muslim population.

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I'll give you a hint also. PQ isn't talking about Utah.

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Originally Posted by ljbab728

I'll give you a hint also. PQ isn't talking about Utah.

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I don't see how anybody can look at Oklahoma's legislature and deny the influence of the radical religious right and its desire to enforce its very narrow interpretation of the Bible on the lives of all Oklahomans. Why do you think this state has people like Sally Kern? Why do people like her get re-elected?

Using religion is just a convenient front to argue these type of topics but don't think for a second it's not deeply rooted in money.

What needs to happen is a funded grassroots effort to show those that are unaware how the craft beer explosion going on everywhere isn't happening here because of our laws. There'll be much less talk about religion in these discussions when the real potential of income/jobs are discussed I think.

I don't think it's the religious lobby (if that's what you want to call it) as much as it is the liquor lobby (namely the Naifeh's) and MADD types of groups.

The liquor lobby would be losing a lot of money if OKC all of a sudden allowed sales in grocery stores because then there would be less wine sales at liquor stores since they could get it at the grocery store. Also, bigger companies like Costco, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc would bring their alcohol in from their distributors, not the Naifeh's which would also cause them to lost money.

The MADD types of groups think that just because we can sell cold beer at liquor stores, wine and higher point beer at grocery stores, people will be getting more drunk and it will give them easier access to colder alcohol, which they will in turn drink faster (presumably in their car on the way home from the store) and end up getting someone else hurt. It is an absurd accusation and is just one thing they are trying to hold on to. They use the "what about the children" line to get people to believe their way without listening to the facts or understanding someone else's POV.

Any time any group wants to take away freedom, all they have to say is "it's for the children." Both liberals and conservatives use that tactic.

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Originally Posted by warreng88

I don't think it's the religious lobby (if that's what you want to call it) as much as it is the liquor lobby (namely the Naifeh's) and MADD types of groups.

The liquor lobby would be losing a lot of money if OKC all of a sudden allowed sales in grocery stores because then there would be less wine sales at liquor stores since they could get it at the grocery store. Also, bigger companies like Costco, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc would bring their alcohol in from their distributors, not the Naifeh's which would also cause them to lost money.

The MADD types of groups think that just because we can sell cold beer at liquor stores, wine and higher point beer at grocery stores, people will be getting more drunk and it will give them easier access to colder alcohol, which they will in turn drink faster (presumably in their car on the way home from the store) and end up getting someone else hurt. It is an absurd accusation and is just one thing they are trying to hold on to. They use the "what about the children" line to get people to believe their way without listening to the facts or understanding someone else's POV.

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Agreed. Btw, finally checked out the family on linked in, good grief they're in EVERYTHING. Good luck going against those guys.

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Originally Posted by bille

Using religion is just a convenient front to argue these type of topics but don't think for a second it's not deeply rooted in money.

What needs to happen is a funded grassroots effort to show those that are unaware how the craft beer explosion going on everywhere isn't happening here because of our laws. There'll be much less talk about religion in these discussions when the real potential of income/jobs are discussed I think.

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Religion is probably still somewhat responsible, but is secondary to the money...

So how do we start a grassroots funded effort to change things? I am not experienced in that kind of thing, seems like there are some out there who are, but how do we get something started? Attempts have been made over the past few years, but they never got much past the start line, I believe.

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Originally Posted by Buffalo Bill

Have you ever wondered why Utah has the strictest liquor laws in the country?

I'll give you a hint, it's not due to them catering to their Muslim population.

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But I wonder why Utah ratified the 21st Amendment, which was prohibition repeal of alcohol. I don't get that.

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Originally Posted by TheTravellers

Religion is probably still somewhat responsible, but is secondary to the money...

So how do we start a grassroots funded effort to change things? I am not experienced in that kind of thing, seems like there are some out there who are, but how do we get something started? Attempts have been made over the past few years, but they never got much past the start line, I believe.

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Someone, who is rich, needs to start the ball rolling. I tend to doubt there is enough enthusiasm for alcohol law reform in Oklahoma to come up with enough fired up volunteers working for nothing in the major cities to find around 156,000 signatures during the 90 day campaign allowed.

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Originally Posted by Bunty

Someone, who is rich, needs to start the ball rolling. I tend to doubt there is enough enthusiasm for alcohol law reform in Oklahoma to come up with enough fired up volunteers working for nothing in the major cities to find around 156,000 signatures during the 90 day campaign allowed.

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That's what I figured, thanks... I would so love to change so many of the things here (or at least start the ball rolling, as Bunty says), but it takes $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to do so, and I only have $$. Very frustrating to see things in need of change, and possibly know how to change them, but not having any/enough money to do so.

What would be a good way to do it (and I am not the one to organize it, so please don't ask me) is to couple it with a craft brew festival like the one done in May. At least, that would be a great place to get a ton of signatures.

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Originally Posted by warreng88

I don't think it's the religious lobby (if that's what you want to call it) as much as it is the liquor lobby (namely the Naifeh's) and MADD types of groups.

The liquor lobby would be losing a lot of money if OKC all of a sudden allowed sales in grocery stores because then there would be less wine sales at liquor stores since they could get it at the grocery store. Also, bigger companies like Costco, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc would bring their alcohol in from their distributors, not the Naifeh's which would also cause them to lost money.

The MADD types of groups think that just because we can sell cold beer at liquor stores, wine and higher point beer at grocery stores, people will be getting more drunk and it will give them easier access to colder alcohol, which they will in turn drink faster (presumably in their car on the way home from the store) and end up getting someone else hurt. It is an absurd accusation and is just one thing they are trying to hold on to. They use the "what about the children" line to get people to believe their way without listening to the facts or understanding someone else's POV.

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This is wrong and right. Religious lobby has actually stayed mostly out of this.
Naifehs do control the industry. however if wine becomes available in grocery it will still go through central liquor. The 4 tier system is in the state constitution, good luck changing that.

First if you allow wine and grocery you will see a massive lawsuit right off the bat. For 50 years liquor have been allowed to own 1 store, must be a sole proprietor, and be a resident of the state for 10 years and then one day you change all the rules on them.

Second there is a lot of very very powerful companies who really like the system the way it is. Budweiser loves it. They can go direct, sell cold, and have 5 extra hours to sell. No way they're signing off on cold beer in liquor stores. The liquor stores like it. They don't have to compete against chains, there is no bulk discounts, and they don't have to compete against grocery stores. The brokers like the system. All they have to do is rep the products and move the paperwork. The wholesalers like it. (Naifehs)

Third if you support local business and claim to be a local business adovcate and you support putting wine in grocery your either ignorant about how the oklahoma system actually works or you are a massive massive hypocrite of epic proportions. The system oklahoma has in place might be the most local business friendly system in the entire country.

The distillers aren't local.
The brokers are local/national. You have the majors RNDC, Glazers, Gallo but you also have many local brokers. Thirst, premium, select, etc. (Coop Ale works) actually self brokers)
Wholesalers- central, jarboe, action and sterling. All local.
Liquor stores- Every. Single. Store. Is locally owned and operated.

OR we can be "progressive" and go to a Texas system
Distiller-not local
RNDC, southern, Glazers, Gallo are the distributors and will have 90% market share in any given area. They are all multi billion dollar corporations.
Wal Mart, Target, etc.- obviously not local.
Specs and others are massive Texas chains with a few locally owned liquor stores.

Btw there are more wine sku's available in state of oklahoma with its 4,000,000 people then in Texas with its 30,000,000. Think about that. It's an unintentionally brillaint that needs some tweaks.

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Originally Posted by Bunty

Someone, who is rich, needs to start the ball rolling. I tend to doubt there is enough enthusiasm for alcohol law reform in Oklahoma to come up with enough fired up volunteers working for nothing in the major cities to find around 156,000 signatures during the 90 day campaign allowed.

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Aubrey freaking McClendon tried to take on the Naifehs to get the laws changed and failed. Let that sink in. It's going to take someone with power not money. And in the words of frank underwood I pity the man who doesn't know the difference.

Indiana cold beer battle.

Cold beer battle heats up in Indiana - Jul. 17, 2014

Most reputable breweries suggest that their product be refrigerated as it is, in the final analysis, a food product. Sort of like liquid bread. I wonder if there could be a "public health and safety" angle here . . . hmmmmm.....