Full list of proposed MAPS 4 projects

Definitely had an opportunity to build some Dubai type sh!t while we still have oil and gas money flowing in, but, instead, we’re going to blow it on down payments for homeless folks and then stick the tax payers with the mortgage payments when they inevitably default.

Sounds sick, Comrades!

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I meant that as a reference to the efforts and financial efforts on the west coast where it has done nothing and the problem as gotten worse. I believe it is Seattle where the city has spent $100,000 per homeless resident and it has accomplished nothing.

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It's actually gotten worse here. But that has more to do with liberal governing/enforcement (or lack thereof) than it does about the city helping the homeless (which I fully support). The homeless here are violent, very expressive, and get away with everything from public drunkenness, public urination/defecation, nudity, screaming/yelling, purposeful playing chicken with vehicles to actual drug dealing/consumption and criminal street crime (and all of this downtown btw). I don't think OKC has or will have Seattle's problem.

OKC is LONG behind other big cities with regard to municipal support for the homeless - this will help catch up a bit ($50M/2500 = $20,000 per homeless should go very far in OKC, esp when enhanced by private services (which Seattle has very little/none))..

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Originally Posted by chuck5815

Definitely had an opportunity to build some Dubai type sh!t while we still have oil and gas money flowing in, but, instead, we’re going to blow it on down payments for homeless folks and then stick the tax payers with the mortgage payments when they inevitably default.

Sounds sick, Comrades!

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I’ve been involved with a number of projects in Dubai. We NEVER have had that kind of development capital or interest in doing so. May as well compare us to Paris for culture.

Our support of the challenged in OK is embarrassing for a developed country.

Sure, Oklahoma City needs to address its homeless population as does every city. There's always something our city could do; let's not put all of this on the city.

Homeless have to have a will to improve their own individual situations. Any structure we provide should be monitored for upkeep, hold those who benefit accountable for better living standards or you're just building a project that offers a temporary solution to a long-term problem.

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Originally Posted by rover

i’ve been involved with a number of projects in dubai. We never have had that kind of development capital or interest in doing so. May as well compare us to paris for culture.

Our support of the challenged in the USA is embarrassing for a developed country.

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fify

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Originally Posted by Laramie

Sure, Oklahoma City needs to address its homeless population as does every city. There's always something our city could do; let's not put all of this on the city.

Homeless have to have a will to improve their own individual situations. Any structure we provide should be monitored for upkeep, hold those who benefit accountable for better living standards or you're just building a project that offers a temporary solution to a long-term problem.

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In the current economy, the vast majority of homeless are addicted, mentally challenged or ill, physically challenged or undocumented. Few people simply can't find work to the extent they need to beg for money or live the homeless life. Cities generally have multiple organizations to help those who want help. My point is, until the laws allow those who dont want or can't help themselves to be forced into treatment, the problem will never be solved. The law protects homelessness as a choice and begging as speech. I'd far rather see that $100k/homeless money used for mental care and treatment than just a handout.

Not everyone will qualify for the homeless programs. Select those who can benefit the most.

While driving the street next door east of the Jesus House, saw a man (last year or two) wrapped in blankets & cardboard (snow on the ground), it occurred to me the guy could possibly freeze to death. Returned and stopped in front of the Jesus House, talked with security about what I observed--he stated 'sometimes people make a choice, he can't follow rules so he lost privileges.'

Many of these people are ill, minds are badly warped. Maybe it started with drugs or brain injury, who knows. The longer they're out on the streets the more likelihood they will encounter more physical and/or mental trauma. I realize, we can't save them all--save as many as you can.

Where is the “handout” argument coming from? This package includes no “handouts.”

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Originally Posted by Pete

Keep in mind, the anti-logrolling (single subject) measure is part of the Oklahoma constitution as it is in 40 other states.

And it's exactly why when we vote on general obligation bonds they are separated out into distinct categories (roads, sewer, etc.) and voted on individually.

AND, the city keeps changing their wording on these MAPS ballot measures specifically to circumvent this law.


So, this is hardly just grinding an ax. If it is indeed not an issue, then the courts will say so.

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i am on the record that i will vote no for this Maps (although in reality i am moving so i won't get to vote)

but one could just as accurately say that the city changed the words of the ballot to COMPLY with the law ...

this ballot language change was to allow for the operational funds (not just capital imporovements)

just like the last MAPS3 the voters are only voting on a single subject ..


Ed knows full well the council can do whatever they want with the money he tried lots of times to vote to move maps 3 money around to other projects

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Originally Posted by soonerguru

Where is the “handout” argument coming from? This package includes no “handouts.”

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it has a bunch on "social programs" that are not and should not be city gov business .... and the idea that throwing money at some of the problems they are trying to solve is going to "fix" them is laughable ..

seattle spends 90mil a year to "fix" homelessness ... and guess what the problem continues to get worse..

It’s worth the try but I’m deeply skeptical we’re gonna fix an issue like homelessness, little old okc isn’t magically going to crack the code.

If it fails I want city leaders to be open to the idea that it can’t be fixed, instead of putting the city on a we just need more money treadmill that’s working like a dream in SF and Seattle.

He gave lots of interviews in the past that MAPS “is just a vote for a tax” and nothing else and that nothing binds anything to the proposed projects.

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Originally Posted by BoulderSooner

i am on the record that i will vote no for this Maps (although in reality i am moving so i won't get to vote)

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Are you just moving out of OKC or out of Oklahoma?

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Originally Posted by Nick

Are you just moving out of OKC or out of Oklahoma?

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just out of okc proper

Again, one can argue that these investments are bad ideas, or won’t work or whatever, but nothing I’ve seen in any of the proposals is a handout.

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Originally Posted by soonerguru

Again, one can argue that these investments are bad ideas, or won’t work or whatever, but nothing I’ve seen in any of the proposals is a handout.

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How about up to $12.42 million for the Thunder Practice Facility at 9600 N. Oklahoma Ave? That's a handout in my book.

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Originally Posted by Ed Shadid

How about up to $12.42 million for the Thunder Practice Facility at 9600 N. Oklahoma Ave? That's a handout in my book.

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Just got to throw the word "Multipurpose" in there somewhere, and that makes it totally fine! Definitely not a handout if it's a multipurpose facility, right? :)

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Originally Posted by Ed Shadid

How about up to $12.42 million for the Thunder Practice Facility at 9600 N. Oklahoma Ave? That's a handout in my book.

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The Thunder financial impact on OKC far outweighs $12.42 million. Last report I saw was around $ 1.5 million per game economic gain. At 41 games per season (more if in playoffs) then this one time training facility payout will be one of the better investments made for MAPS4.

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Originally Posted by Bellaboo

The Thunder financial impact on OKC far outweighs $12.42 million. Last report I saw was around $ 1.5 million per game economic gain. At 41 games per season (more if in playoffs) then this one time training facility payout will be one of the better investments made for MAPS4.

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And the increase in value of the team since the purchase has increased from its purchase price in 2006 of $350 million to something like $1.5 billion today (429% return in 13 years). Everyone needs to get up off their knees and stop acting like the financial benefit goes one way (from benevolent oligarchs who own the team to the people of OKC). How about the people of OKC get an equity position in the team ala the Green Bay Packers.

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Originally Posted by Ed Shadid

And the increase in value of the team since the purchase has increased from its purchase price in 2006 of $350 million to something like $1.5 billion today (429% return in 13 years). Everyone needs to get up off their knees and stop acting like the financial benefit goes one way (from benevolent oligarchs who own the team to the people of OKC). How about the people of OKC get an equity position in the team ala the Green Bay Packers.

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And they ponied up and bought it. No one gave it to them. OKC gets the benefit of this group going out on a limb. I have no problem with infrastructure upkeep on city owned property.

You ever watch ESPN ? Few knew where OKC was until 13 years ago. We finally have a positive identity.

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Originally Posted by Ed Shadid

And the increase in value of the team since the purchase has increased from its purchase price in 2006 of $350 million to something like $1.5 billion today (429% return in 13 years). Everyone needs to get up off their knees and stop acting like the financial benefit goes one way (from benevolent oligarchs who own the team to the people of OKC). How about the people of OKC get an equity position in the team ala the Green Bay Packers.

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Ed, I support you when someone tries to paint you as against the underprivileged when its your beef is with logrolling.

However, I feel Peake and Thunder have been the best investment of all Maps to date. Yes, their valuation has increased but so too has OKC as whole. How many other businesses are viable because of Thunder? Its impossible to put a number on it, what they have done to make OKC a city that garnered so much growth. Without Thunder I don’t think we’d have prospered as much. So both sides have received benefits from them. Also not to be discounted is the community outreach they perform. Whats the value of all the Russells Reading Rooms? If just one kid turns his life around that kid could be Mayor of OKC one day.

So I’m ok with spending on them its a great entertainment value for the city (and state) and has returned value 10 fold.

I am against the logrolling though

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Originally Posted by OKC Guy

Ed, I support you when someone tries to paint you as against the underprivileged when its your beef is with logrolling.

However, I feel Peake and Thunder have been the best investment of all Maps to date. Yes, their valuation has increased but so too has OKC as whole. How many other businesses are viable because of Thunder? Its impossible to put a number on it, what they have done to make OKC a city that garnered so much growth. Without Thunder I don’t think we’d have prospered as much. So both sides have received benefits from them. Also not to be discounted is the community outreach they perform. Whats the value of all the Russells Reading Rooms? If just one kid turns his life around that kid could be Mayor of OKC one day.

So I’m ok with spending on them its a great entertainment value for the city (and state) and has returned value 10 fold.

I am against the logrolling though

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We are on the same page; no question the relationship has been mutually beneficial. Just pointing out that it is bidirectional.

Let the people vote on the "Chesapeake Energy Arena and Related Facilities" separately or at least grouped with other sports facilities/arenas. If it passes a vote of the people in that manner that is a very different endorsement than the logrolling currently being placed in front of the voter.

And remember also that we, as taxpayers, refund all the players' state income tax back to the Thunder owners etc.. I still believe that when taxpayers "invest" hundreds of millions of dollars into an enterprise such as the Thunder that they can be given some, at least token, ownership stake to also benefit from the 429% return/13 years.

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Originally Posted by Ed Shadid

We are on the same page; no question the relationship has been mutually beneficial. Just pointing out that it is bidirectional.

Let the people vote on the "Chesapeake Energy Arena and Related Facilities" separately or at least grouped with other sports facilities/arenas. If it passes a vote of the people in that manner that is a very different endorsement than the logrolling currently being placed in front of the voter.

And remember also that we, as taxpayers, refund all the players' state income tax back to the Thunder owners etc.. I still believe that when taxpayers "invest" hundreds of millions of dollars into an enterprise such as the Thunder that they can be given some, at least token, ownership stake to also benefit from the 429% return/13 years.

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It just doesn’t work that way though. We won’t get any stake in OMNI either and thats fine. It will elevate our image.

I do think items need to be either alone or on groups that clearly define the group (like sports or social or transportation or parks and so on). Then these would be listed that way on ballot too.

I have so much against MAPS 4 and for the first time I am voting no. Too vague, not transformative and way too much added future underfunded operating costs. Some propose to create new jobs but nothing about how they will be administered nor what they will even pay. So whoever is picked by ?, could pay way over market value for positions and who controls that? Likely the same people picking the leader.

One of my adult kids is a no vote too so thats 2 no’s (other lives in Dallas). One good thing I did raising them is I always brought them with me when I voted. I thought it was very important and did this til they were 18. So amazed I rarely ever saw other parents bring kids in. I always explained to the worker volunteers I wanted them to be with me even at the booth to fully make them understand they have a choice and its their choice.

This MAPS is a mess and I fear will be end of MAPS. Its being rushed. Never had any concensus on projects. Very late to get word out. Too many projects with too little information. And at 8-9 years its too long. We need to change how we approach MAPS. This one just bankrupts us down the road with unfunded future costs.

^3 yes votes in my family so we are one vote ahead:)

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Originally Posted by Ed Shadid

We are on the same page; no question the relationship has been mutually beneficial. Just pointing out that it is bidirectional.

Let the people vote on the "Chesapeake Energy Arena and Related Facilities" separately or at least grouped with other sports facilities/arenas. If it passes a vote of the people in that manner that is a very different endorsement than the logrolling currently being placed in front of the voter.

And remember also that we, as taxpayers, refund all the players' state income tax back to the Thunder owners etc.. I still believe that when taxpayers "invest" hundreds of millions of dollars into an enterprise such as the Thunder that they can be given some, at least token, ownership stake to also benefit from the 429% return/13 years.

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Ed,

Do you realize that all 460 players in the league, plus all ownership groups, pay the state of Oklahoma income tax for each game played in the state ?

That's a huge sum that is collected on the state's behalf. It's okay for the state to repay a small percentage of the Thunders employees income tax due to the QJA. But they spend a lot of taxed money in the community that is not refunded.