Uber coming to OKC

Okay, I looked at the TOS on their webpage. Here's a couple of snips:

Your contracting partner is Uber B.V., a private limited liability company established in the Netherlands, having its offices at Barbara Strozzilaan 201, 1083 HN Amsterdam, the Netherlands, registered at the Chamber of Commerce under number 55808646


For the avoidance of doubt: Uber itself does not provide transportation services, and Uber is not a transportation carrier. It is up to the Transportation Provider to offer transportation services, which may be requested through the use of the Application and/or the Service. Uber only acts as intermediary between you and the Transportation Provider. The provision of the transportation services by the Transportation Provider to you is therefore subject to the agreement (to be) entered into between you and the Transportation Provider. Uber shall never be a party to such agreement.

Indemnification

By accepting these User Terms and using the Application or Service, you agree that you shall defend, indemnify and hold Uber, its affiliates, its licensors, and each of their officers, directors, other users, employees, attorneys and agents harmless from and against any and all claims, costs, damages, losses, liabilities and expenses (including attorneys' fees and costs) arising out of or in connection with: (a) your violation or breach of any term of these User Terms or any applicable law or regulation, whether or not referenced herein; (b) your violation of any rights of any third party, including Transportation Providers arranged via the Application, or (c) your use or misuse of the Application or Service.
Liability

The information, recommendations and/or services provided to you on or through the Website, the Service and the Application is for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. Uber will reasonably keep the Website and the Application and its contents correct and up to date but does not guarantee that (the contents of) the Website and/or Application are free of errors, defects, malware and viruses or that the Website and/or Application are correct, up to date and accurate.

Uber shall not be liable for any damages resulting from the use of or inability to use) the Website or Application (but to the exclusion of death or personal injury), including damages caused by malware, viruses or any incorrectness or incompleteness of the Information or the Website or Application, unless such damage is the result of any wilful misconduct or from gross negligence on the part of Uber.

Uber shall further not be liable for damages resulting from the use of (or the inability to use) electronic means of communication with the Website or the Application, including – but not limited to – damages resulting from failure or delay in delivery of electronic communications, interception or manipulation of electronic communications by third parties or by computer programs used for electronic communications and transmission of viruses.

Without prejudice to the foregoing, and insofar as allowed under mandatory applicable law, Uber's aggregate liability shall in no event exceed an amount of EUR 500 or, where applicable, the equivalent of that amount in the currency used by you for the payment of the transportation services to the Transportation Provide.

The quality of the transportation services requested through the use of the Application or the Service is entirely the responsibility of the Transportation Provider who ultimately provides such transportation services to you. Uber under no circumstance accepts liability in connection with and/or arising from the transportation services provided by the Transportation Provider or any acts, action, behaviour, conduct, and/or negligence on the part of the Transportation Provider. Any complaints about the transportation services provided by the Transportation Provider should therefore be submitted to the Transportation Provider.

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Originally Posted by Sid Burgess

The address lookup tool is linked to Foursquare. If I'm at Skinny Slim's, I choose that one. Are you saying it will only tell the driver the address on Main street and not that it is at Skinny Slim's (if that is what I selected)? When coming to my house, it is just an address that I use.

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If location is linked to Four Square, not one of my 17 fares used it.

All I ever received was an address and it was often not completely accurate.

I had to call/text virtually every single person and hope they would respond.

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Originally Posted by mkjeeves

My googler doesn't seem to want to cough up any real details to support that. I'll take your word for it until I use it for anything besides a cab like we did with my son's ap in Chicago. Probably will also read the TOS for liability disclaimers when/if I upgrade my phone and load the ap.

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From the article that MK linked to.

"Uber, in the meantime, has begun to expand from its luxury sedan service into something that looks more like ride-sharing under the label UberX. Some of the drivers of the cheaper mid-range cars are also licensed cabbies, with their own commercial insurance. But some of them are just regular people with their own cars. In those cases, Uber is providing a commercial policy to cover the rides."

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Originally Posted by Jeepnokc

From the article that MK linked to.

"Uber, in the meantime, has begun to expand from its luxury sedan service into something that looks more like ride-sharing under the label UberX. Some of the drivers of the cheaper mid-range cars are also licensed cabbies, with their own commercial insurance. But some of them are just regular people with their own cars. In those cases, Uber is providing a commercial policy to cover the rides."

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I read that in a couple of articles. Only that, no real details, as I said. Nothing I can find about it on the Uber site either. At least not that I have turned up in a few searches.

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Originally Posted by mkjeeves

I read that in a couple of articles. Only that, no real details, as I said. Nothing I can find about it on the Uber site either. At least not that I have turned up in a few searches.

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Not sure what you looked for but I did one google search for "uberx insurance" and the very first organic search result was this blog entry from Uber:

In the absence of regulatory clarity, Uber will implement safeguards in terms of safety and insurance that will go beyond what local regulatory bodies have in place for commercial transportation.
1.At minimum, there will be a $1,000,000 per-incident insurance policy applicable to ridesharing trips. This insurance applies to any ridesharing trip requested through the Uber technology platform.
2.Extensive and strict background checks will be performed on any ridesharing transportation provider allowed on the Uber platform. The criteria for which a driver will be disqualified will be stricter than what any existing local regulatory body already has in place for commercial transportation providers.


Here is the link:

Uber Blog | Uber Policy White Paper 1.0

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Originally Posted by Jeepnokc

Not sure what you looked for but I did one google search for "uberx insurance" and the very first organic search result was this blog entry from Uber:

In the absence of regulatory clarity, Uber will implement safeguards in terms of safety and insurance that will go beyond what local regulatory bodies have in place for commercial transportation.
1.At minimum, there will be a $1,000,000 per-incident insurance policy applicable to ridesharing trips. This insurance applies to any ridesharing trip requested through the Uber technology platform.
2.Extensive and strict background checks will be performed on any ridesharing transportation provider allowed on the Uber platform. The criteria for which a driver will be disqualified will be stricter than what any existing local regulatory body already has in place for commercial transportation providers.


Here is the link:

Uber Blog | Uber Policy White Paper 1.0

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So, the unanswered question remains, if there is any ambiguity in Oklahoma law about commercial insurance such that Uber's policy would come into play? My guess without looking would be the law says the owner of a vehicle engaged in commercial transportation will carry commercial insurance. I don't read the white paper saying Uber has blanket coverage for all drivers. Nor that they will cover anyone who does not comply with an unabiguous law. Do you read that differently?

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Originally Posted by OkieDave

20$ off code for Uber you can use the special UberJayne link:https://www.uber.com/invite/uberJayne They are going to need more drivers quick, out of towners love the service. I picked up this guy today for the first uber ever in OKC

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Is there any way to exclude getting a certain driver? I don't want to support businessmen who benefit from the MAPS for Millionaires tax that was used to get the NBA here.

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Originally Posted by mkjeeves

So, the unanswered question remains, if there is any ambiguity in Oklahoma law about commercial insurance such that Uber's policy would come into play? My guess without looking would be the law says the owner of a vehicle engaged in commercial transportation will carry commercial insurance. I don't read the white paper saying Uber has blanket coverage for all drivers. Nor that they will cover anyone who does not comply with an unabiguous law. Do you read that differently?

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I read the entire paper different. The paper basically is talking amount non licensed drivers which is what überx is. Uber uses professional drivers that have livery licenses and commercial insurance. What the paper is saying is that areas where they are enforcing regulations against unlicensed drivers like Austin and Philly, there isn't an issue because those cities are enforcing their regulations against non licensed drivers thus preventing them from operation. In area where the regulation against non licensed drivers either don't exist, are ambiguous (ie...don't apply to these type of programs) or are not being enforced, they will get into the non licensed ride sharing with uberx. In those cases where they are using uberx, they will provide insurance.

Okay. So to cut right to the meat of it, maybe an Uberx driver in Oklahoma will ask Uber to provide them a copy of the policy that covers the driver and their riders, then share it with us or the local press.

One more thought on Oklahoma law, it's required to have an insurance verification form in the vehicle, so if Über is providing that coverage, the operator is required to have a document showing it.

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Originally Posted by Sid Burgess

Minimum liability and proof thereof is required. Not sure why you think Uber's own policy would be required proof inside the vehicle. Uber isn't covering minimum liability, which is what the state requires.

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Originally Posted by Pete

Yes, there are minimum requirements, and not just insurance.

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We've come full circle.

My original question...does Uber require commercial insurance and do they require the insurance provider to notify them of changes or cancellation?

From the article I linked:

Broadly speaking, there are two kinds of car insurance: the personal policies we all (should) have for our private cars, and commercial policies that cover vehicles in the use of a business. Your personal policy probably has a line that says you can’t drive your car for commercial purposes. If you take your minivan out to ferry strangers around town for cash, and you get in an accident while doing that, your insurance company will likely refuse to pay out. For this reason, a pizza delivery guy who drives his personal vehicle is covered by the pizza company’s insurance policy while he’s working. And a cab driver, even if he owns his own vehicle, has to take out a commercial policy to cover it.

What that likely means for us and Uberx drivers, the personal insurance and certificate doesn't mean anything to anyone and is proof of nothing if they are ferrying people for hire. That driver does not comply with the law. They are an uninsured motorist. Worse yet, they are an uninsured motorist for hire.

If the claim (as Uber implies and has some of the media parroting) Uber is going to provide coverage for those instances where their drivers don't have commercial policies, then they need to provide a certificate showing coverage for the particular vehicle per the Oklahoma law. At a minimum, they should make it crystal clear what they are and aren't providing and quit muddying the water by having total disclaimers in their TOS and then issuing white papers about some nebulous coverage they might provide in some circumstances.

This is just like the mayor/shadid thread. MK isn't going to believe anything and argue everything. OK law requires drivers to carry proof of liability insurance which is different from commercial insurance. I am curious if you ask to see the pizza company's insurance card before they deliver a pizza in case the driver ends up in your front living room?

If you don't think you are covered....don't use it.

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Originally Posted by Jeepnokc

This is just like the mayor/shadid thread. MK isn't going to believe anything and argue everything. OK law requires drivers to carry proof of liability insurance which is different from commercial insurance. I am curious if you ask to see the pizza company's insurance card before they deliver a pizza in case the driver ends up in your front living room?

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It absolutely is not different. You can't have it both ways under the law, either you're driving a vehicle for hire or you are driving it personally. If you are driving for hire, your liability is the direct result of commercial activity and would require commercial liability coverage. As stated in the link, personal liability insurance isn't going to cover the driver, the passengers or the people and property damaged when an accident occurs.

Pick up your phone and ask your insurer...but I suspect what's legal isn't important to many in this thread.

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If you don't think you are covered....don't use it.

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I may be forced to deal with the aftermath when an uninsured Uberx motorist hits one of my vehicles, injures me and or one of my employees. We have uninsured motorist laws for a reason. We have licensing of commercial businesses and the government checking up on issues like commercial coverage for a reason.

I operate a business (20+ years now) that has commercial liability insurance for all our activities both on and off the road so I've been living these kinds of issues for a long time now. It's required by law both ways in my industry. We provide the state with an insurance certificate with a cancellation notice requirement before they issue a license or renew the license and we get our license suspended if we drop our coverage. We also carry the required certificates in the vehicles showing that coverage. It's in the public interest to require that, to best protect the citizens, and especially when a person is engaging in commercial activity, which tends to be a lot more activity and expose a lot more people than if they are acting personally.

Uber wants to put a bunch of people in business. That's great. Step up, comply with the law and provide actual coverage for the public.

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Originally Posted by mkjeeves

It absolutely is not different. You can't have it both ways under the law, either your are driving a vehicle for hire or you are driving it personally. If you are driving for hire, your liability is the direct result of commercial activity and would require commercial liability coverage. As stated in the link, personal liability insurance isn't going to cover the driver, the passengers or the people and property damaged when an accident occurs.

Pick up your phone and ask your insurer...but I suspect what's legal isn't important to many in this thread.



I may be forced to deal with the aftermath when an uninsured Uberx motorist hits one of my vehicles. We have uninsured motorist laws for a reason. We have licensing of commercial businesses and the government checking up on issues like commercial coverage for a reason.

I operate a business (20+ years now) that has commercial liability insurance for all our activities both on and off the road so I've been living these kinds of issues for a long time now. It's required by law both ways in my industry. We provide the state with an insurance certificate with a cancellation notice requirement before they issue a license or renew the license and we get our license suspended if we drop our coverage. We also carry the required certificates in the vehicles showing that coverage. It's in the public interest to require that, to best protect the citizens, and especially when a person is engaging in commercial activity, which tends to be a lot more activity and expose a lot more people than if they are acting personally.

Uber wants to put a bunch of people in business. That's great. Step up, comply with the law and provide actual coverage for the public.

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I understand the difference between the commercial and non commercial insurance as I have both. However...the law does not require proof of commercial insurance be carried which is what you were saying. It only requires you to carry proof of liability insurance. The pizza delivery boy is not required to keep the pizza company's policy in his car...just his own. Once again....do you demand to see it?

That is the purpose of uninsured insurance which everyone should have and is no fault insurance so it won't make your insurance rates go up. BUT...it was clearly pointed out to you that Uberx provides insurance. Call it a white paper or whatever...it is their own statement on their own website blog. Like the shadid arguments...you just refuse to believe anything you don't want to believe. That being said, I am done with you so you may have the last word as there is no reasoning with you.

btw...your insurer probably isn't a lawyer....if you want a legal answer, call a lawyer instead of your insurer. (of course you won't believe him if he doesn't give you the answer you want)

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Originally Posted by Jeepnokc

I understand the difference between the commercial and non commercial insurance as I have both. However...the law does not require proof of commercial insurance be carried which is what you were saying. It only requires you to carry proof of liability insurance. The pizza delivery boy is not required to keep the pizza company's policy in his car...just his own. Once again....do you demand to see it?

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You don't have liability insurance if your carrier doesn't cover you. A piece of paper saying they will cover you at some other time, place and for some other activity is worthless. You get in a wreck and hand me that certificate, and if you know it doesn't cover you, that's fraud. If you don't know it doesn't cover you, ignorance is no excuse, you are just irresponsible. Still against the law for not having the coverage and the documentation.

We don't know what a pizza delivery boy is required to carry under the law.

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That is the purpose of uninsured insurance which everyone should have and is no fault insurance so it won't make your insurance rates go up. BUT...it was clearly pointed out to you that Uberx provides insurance. Call it a white paper or whatever...it is their own statement on their own website blog.

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Wrong. I asked for clarity. Nothing provided clearly states who is covered when and I have provided you with cites saying Uberx drivers are not likley to have any coverage under their personal policy while ferrying people. So far, there are no details, certificates or copies of policies from Uber. Just lots of pushback for asking the inconvenient questions.

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Like the shadid arguments...you just refuse to believe anything you don't want to believe. That being said, I am done with you so you may have the last word as there is no reasoning with you.

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Ditto. No proof of anything on your end. A non-specific statement in a whitepaper on a blog. And lots of hot air.

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btw...your insurer probably isn't a lawyer....if you want a legal answer, call a lawyer instead of your insurer. (of course you won't believe him if he doesn't give you the answer you want)

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They can tell you if your policy covers you for commercial use ferrying people. Some might find it does and some will find it doesn't. But yeah, I have several lawyers I use in my business for different reasons. Anyone who wants to go in business like this should pick up their phone and call their lawyer.

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Originally Posted by mkjeeves

It absolutely is not different. You can't have it both ways under the law, either your are driving a vehicle for hire or you are driving it personally. If you are driving for hire, your liability is the direct result of commercial activity and would require commercial liability coverage. As stated in the link, personal liability insurance isn't going to cover the driver, the passengers or the people and property damaged when an accident occurs.

Pick up your phone and ask your insurer...but I suspect what's legal isn't important to many in this thread.



I may be forced to deal with the aftermath when an uninsured Uberx motorist hits one of my vehicles, injures me and or one of my employees. We have uninsured motorist laws for a reason. We have licensing of commercial businesses and the government checking up on issues like commercial coverage for a reason.

I operate a business (20+ years now) that has commercial liability insurance for all our activities both on and off the road so I've been living these kinds of issues for a long time now. It's required by law both ways in my industry. We provide the state with an insurance certificate with a cancellation notice requirement before they issue a license or renew the license and we get our license suspended if we drop our coverage. We also carry the required certificates in the vehicles showing that coverage. It's in the public interest to require that, to best protect the citizens, and especially when a person is engaging in commercial activity, which tends to be a lot more activity and expose a lot more people than if they are acting personally.

Uber wants to put a bunch of people in business. That's great. Step up, comply with the law and provide actual coverage for the public.

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Wow! For once I agree with MK on a thread! I'll cop to not reading the entire thread, so if Uber does provide liability insurance, boo me.

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Originally Posted by Sid Burgess

I'm confused why you keep referencing the white paper. Uber says they have a policy for UberX drivers. Referenced it several times and most media articles cite it. Are you wanting them to publish a Xerox copy online or something for you? I'm not trying to be snide here but it is a bizarre request. No other company, including yours, is required to publish that information because someone like you doesn't trust them. That's your choice I guess whether or not you want to trust them.

To flip this, you say you have commercial insurance and your only proof is your post here on OKCTalk. I don't think that's sufficient evidence and now I'm worried that you don't actually have any at all. Your nebulous claim isn't sufficient to keep me from worrying that you are going to hit me or my family. So, please post a full copy of your policy for me. Either that, or you are just blowing

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The state won't license me if I don't have coverage. I'm pretty sure my records are part of public record. You can check my licensing online if you knew the name of my company or you can pick up the phone and verify it. You could go to their office and ask for my file and I'm pretty sure you can get access. I've seen them open them up for the media too. Actual open files, on a desk, recorded on camera and broadcast.

We provide insurance certificates on a daily basis to people whom we are doing business with and get theirs too. It's a normal part of business.

We aren't doing business here on OKC talk.

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Originally Posted by Sid Burgess

So then, if you requested a copy of their insurance, would you not get it?

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The driver, UBer or both? Beats me. Uber sure isn't making it easy. Do either have it on file as public record?

In my business it's also required I have my company name and state ID on all vehicles engaged in company activities. So you don't even have to be doing business with me to find out about my license and insurance.

Why does Uber need to operate in the shadows? Who's interests are served by that? Not the public or the consumer.

Sid, I want to support Uberx. It's a neat concept. When the answers about the company, the drivers, the city and/or the state making sure insurance needs are met I will fully support it. That's not nearly as clear as you would like it to be.

Uber / Lyft may be the best idea since Amazon or eBay
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The talk about using those services to deliver for Amazon or local businesses makes too much sense. Why not just hail a Uber driver instead of employing people directly?

Or better yet, it provides a ready delivery mechanism for those businesses who don't have the means or consistent need to have employees for delivery.

It makes particular sense when there is strong demand, like the mention of roses on Valentine's, or food and gifts during the holidays.


You basically have thousands of people with cars all around, so why not tap into that existing network?? Absolutely brilliant business idea and model.

https://www.zipments.com/

An acquaintance back home was involved in the start-up of Zipments.

I just learned that as a driver, you never see what an rider has rated you.

I had seen ratings on my driver account but those were the ones I gave the riders.

My rating is only 4.4 out of a possible 4.7 and I have no idea if someone dinged me (perhaps for high rates, which were completely outside of my control) or if Uber dinged me because I passed on a couple of pick-up opportunities.

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Originally Posted by Pete

Uber / Lyft may be the best idea since Amazon or eBay
.

The talk about using those services to deliver for Amazon or local businesses makes too much sense. Why not just hail a Uber driver instead of employing people directly?

Or better yet, it provides a ready delivery mechanism for those businesses who don't have the means or consistent need to have employees for delivery.

It makes particular sense when there is strong demand, like the mention of roses on Valentine's, or food and gifts during the holidays.


You basically have thousands of people with cars all around, so why not tap into that existing network?? Absolutely brilliant business idea and model.

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Wow. That makes a lot of sense. Especially for a small business who couldn't afford to keep full-time drivers on the payroll.

Here's a pretty good rundown of the insurance confusion surrounding the issue along with more details. Plus how California has been trying to get in front of it all. Worth the read.

Highlights:

Personal insurance won't cover you, unless they pay the claim anyway. Uber's $1 million extension policy will cover you, except when it might not. (The policy is mandated in California. Not mandated in Oklahoma yet. Who knows what similar terms may or may not apply to us.)

I'm sure it will all shake out eventually and in the meanwhile, the devil may care attitude will see us through. Or not.

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The ride-service drivers I talked to aren’t focusing on that risk. Right now, they seem to be enamored of the good pay, flexible schedule and social aspects of their jobs. Any insurance concerns they may have aren’t serious enough to spur them to quit, with many citing the TNCs’ $1 million liability policies as a mitigating factor.

Lyft driver Dan summed it up this way:

“Am I worried about the sky falling when I walk out the door? No. Is it more of a distinct possibility that when I’m driving for Lyft in the city? Yeah. But I’m not thinking about it.”

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Confusion Over Insurance for ?Ride-Sharing? Drivers | KQED News Fix

It was linked off a story of the off duty Uberx driver getting arrested for alleged manslaughter yesterday in California. Not on a call. Probably not going to a call, but he apparently self identified himself as a driver.

Last night (Saturday) I met some friends for dinner in Hollywood so I decided to go-online with Uber and see if I could pick up a few fares and help pay for my evening out. :) It was a bit of a test to see how much money was to be made on a non-NYE night.

I was surprised by how few requests I fielded: only 3 in about a 3-hour period. I only earned about $70 in fares, so my cut is $56. And of course, that does not include my gas costs.

As a driver, you can't see where the other Uber drivers are located but if you log in as a passenger you can. And everywhere I looked there were Black Cars (my classification) all over the place.

Today, I wrote my local Uber driver service department and asked if they had any suggestions for better times and places, and should I just roam around or stay put? They basically told me -- in a very nice way -- that they couldn't help with that.


So, at least here in LA on a regular weekend night, there seems to be tons of Uber drivers. In fact, on all three of my fares, when I was hailed I was very nearby and was able to get to the riders in just a few minutes.

I also saw a lot of Lyft drivers (they attach a silly pink mustache to their grills) so this whole concept is in full effect here. Both these services have critical mass in terms of drivers and I'm sure that will only lead to many more riders.