View Full Version : Does Hell Exist?



metro
04-30-2007, 08:17 PM
Anyone see this or the previews for it? It was a short commentary on News 4 at 6pm and again at 10pm tonight? Here is the link:

Does hell exist? (http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=6448048&nav=menu99_2_6)

Edmond_Outsider
04-30-2007, 09:01 PM
While this isn't really news, it seems somehow appros that channel 4 would do a story about a subject they know something about for a change.

Keith
04-30-2007, 09:10 PM
Yeah, this guy is really a joke. He should immediately resign his position as a minister (and I use that term loosely), especially since he is now preaching against what the Bible says.

God is a loving God, but He is also a just God. Everybody makes their own decision whether to believe or not believe. God doesn't send anyone to hell.....they make that choice when they refuse to believe in Him.

This "minister" is a phony and is somewhat confused. Now, he is in process of confusing other people. But hey, he got his publicity...didn't he?

writerranger
04-30-2007, 09:25 PM
So, God kicked back on his throne, threw this planet of dirt and water into existence and then, I guess as an ego boost, waited to see who would "believe" in him and who wouldn't. And, if some twit has the audacity of not "believing" in this God on the throne, he is forever cast to hellfire and damnation. Hmmm. That's an awfully bored, vengeful, angry, jealous and twisted God on the throne. If he is all-powerful, why in the...uh...Hell...would he care who "believes" and who doesn't? And if they don't, he uses his all-knowing, all-everything power to PUNISH. That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I used to be a believer in the Christian bible, until I actually read it straight through (just like a novel) over a week.

I am a spiritual man. I am in awe of the unknown. But, I don't feel I have to know the answer to the mystery to bow in awe -- and worship whatever created this miracle. But, all of the various religions who believe THEY (and only they) know the "truth"....well...they scare the Hell out of me.

----------------

writerranger
04-30-2007, 09:40 PM
WARNING: The following could be offensive to Christians.
It is a hard-hitting critique of Jesus and the Christian Bible. If that would disturb you, please just ignore this post.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Believer
by Dan Barker

Dear Believer,

You ask me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful.

I find it incredible that you ask me to believe that: the earth was created in six literal days; women come from a man’s rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a wall; Jesus walked on water unaided; fish and bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; water instantly tuned into wine; a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits unbelievers under the earth while there is life after death in a city that is 1,500 miles cubed, with mansions and food, for Christians only.

If you believe these stories, then you are the one with the problem, not me. These myths violate natural law, contradict science, and fail to correspond to reality or logic. If you can’t see that, then you can’t separate truth from fantasy. It doesn’t matter how many people accept the delusions inflicted by “holy” men; a widely held lie is still a lie.

If Christianity were simply untrue, I would not be too concerned. Santa is untrue, but it is a harmless myth that most people outgrow. But Christianity, besides being false, is also abhorrent. It amazes me that you claim to love the God of the Bible, a hateful, arrogant, sexist, cruel being who can’t tolerate criticism. I would not want to live in the same neighborhood as such a creature!

The biblical God is a macho male warrior. Though he said, “Thou shalt not kill,” he ordered death for all opposition. He punishes offspring to the fourth generation; ordered pregnant women and children to be ripped up; is partial to one race of people; judges women inferior to men, is a sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; created evil; spread dung on people’s faces; sent bears to devour forty-two children for merely teasing a prophet; punishes people with snakes, dogs, dragons, swords, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers would eat their sons. Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?

And Jesus is a chip off the old block. He said, “I and my father are one,” and he upheld “every jot and tittle” of the Old Testament law. He preached the same old judgment: vengeance and death, wrath and distress, hell and torture for all nonconformists. He never denounced the subjugation of slaves or women. He irrationally cursed and withered a fig tree for being barren out of season. He mandated burning unbelievers (the Church has complied with relish.). He stole a horse! You want me to accept Jesus, but I think I’ll pick my own friends, thank you.

I also find Christianity to be morally repugnant. The concepts of original sin, depravity, substitutionary forgiveness, intolerance, eternal punishments, and humble worship are all beneath the dignity of intelligent human beings. They are barbaric ideas for primitive cultures cowering in fear and ignorance.

Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity—but leave me out of it. I have better things to do with my life.

by Dan Barker

--------------------------

BaconCheeseburgerDeluxe
04-30-2007, 10:19 PM
The only thing I do not like about religion is all the spin that is involved in religious teachings. Religion in general is taught to where it is designed to be the most beneficial to each particular church's senior leadership. For the most part almost every ministry teaches in a manner of do as I say not as I do.

BailJumper
05-01-2007, 05:57 AM
Religion? Been there, done that, wasn't impressed.

My family growing up was somewhat religious. Nothing hardcore, but Sunday services and prayer at dinner.

While I see the good of having a flock that blindly follows teachings that for the most part are good and positive, I never felt the "need," "urge," "spirit" or whatever you want to call it.

I have no problem with this guy and his preaching. I would be more apt to listen to him than many other preachers.

I've never agreed with many apsects of the Bible and have found many preachers and followers to be absolute fakes and frauds.

But I see his point, I wouldn't (and don't) follow a God that says if I don't follow all of his rules (many of which are plum ridiculous depending on your faith of choice) then I am forever cast into hell. Yet, he also is apparently all knowing which takes away the free-will I was promised. Not to mention he has apparently damned the majority of the world as Christianity is not practiced in most countries and continents. So, the child born to some African family that is never even exposed to Christianity is forever damned to burn in hell regardless of how he may lead his life without Christ? I'lll take my chances.

And no, I don't want some Bible verse chanting Christian whore to show me the error of my ways.

metro
05-01-2007, 07:44 AM
WARNING: The following could be offensive to Christians.
It is a hard-hitting critique of Jesus and the Christian Bible. If that would disturb you, please just ignore this post.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Believer
by Dan Barker

Dear Believer,

You ask me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful.

I find it incredible that you ask me to believe that: the earth was created in six literal days; women come from a man’s rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a wall; Jesus walked on water unaided; fish and bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; water instantly tuned into wine; a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits unbelievers under the earth while there is life after death in a city that is 1,500 miles cubed, with mansions and food, for Christians only.

If you believe these stories, then you are the one with the problem, not me. These myths violate natural law, contradict science, and fail to correspond to reality or logic. If you can’t see that, then you can’t separate truth from fantasy. It doesn’t matter how many people accept the delusions inflicted by “holy” men; a widely held lie is still a lie.

If Christianity were simply untrue, I would not be too concerned. Santa is untrue, but it is a harmless myth that most people outgrow. But Christianity, besides being false, is also abhorrent. It amazes me that you claim to love the God of the Bible, a hateful, arrogant, sexist, cruel being who can’t tolerate criticism. I would not want to live in the same neighborhood as such a creature!

The biblical God is a macho male warrior. Though he said, “Thou shalt not kill,” he ordered death for all opposition. He punishes offspring to the fourth generation; ordered pregnant women and children to be ripped up; is partial to one race of people; judges women inferior to men, is a sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; created evil; spread dung on people’s faces; sent bears to devour forty-two children for merely teasing a prophet; punishes people with snakes, dogs, dragons, swords, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers would eat their sons. Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?

And Jesus is a chip off the old block. He said, “I and my father are one,” and he upheld “every jot and tittle” of the Old Testament law. He preached the same old judgment: vengeance and death, wrath and distress, hell and torture for all nonconformists. He never denounced the subjugation of slaves or women. He irrationally cursed and withered a fig tree for being barren out of season. He mandated burning unbelievers (the Church has complied with relish.). He stole a horse! You want me to accept Jesus, but I think I’ll pick my own friends, thank you.

I also find Christianity to be morally repugnant. The concepts of original sin, depravity, substitutionary forgiveness, intolerance, eternal punishments, and humble worship are all beneath the dignity of intelligent human beings. They are barbaric ideas for primitive cultures cowering in fear and ignorance.

Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity—but leave me out of it. I have better things to do with my life.

by Dan Barker

--------------------------

writeranger and Dan Barker, I can relate to where you are coming from. I strongly encourage you to watch the "Week 1" video at the following link. I think you will fill find it interesting food for thought on this subject. If God is UNJUST as some believe or not real, etc. Then Jesus and the 12 disciples pulled off the greatest HOAX in the history of the world, had nothing to gain, but rather almost everything to lose instead, they were torchered, mocked, ridiculed, and most died a horrific death, they gave up their families, and for what to gain? You think at some point, if it was untrue, Jesus would have said on the cross dying the most horrific death known to man that he was "just kidding" or pulling our legs, etc. Not to mention his disciples still believed after he died and rose again and died a martyrs death. Time was split in two because of Jesus, B.C and A.D, no other religious name doubles as a curse word, you don't hear people cursing Mohammad, Budda and the like. If you were Satan (believing that he's real) what name would you attack and ruin more than any other name?? Perhaps Jesus? Most main religions believed Jesus existed and was a good prophet and man, even extremist Islamists believe that, what other religions have a problem with Christianity is that he rose again. I'm not the best speaker or have all the right things to say, but I strongly encourage you to watch the following video, its a little over 20 minutes. Just click Week 1 and choose your internet speed.

Webcasts | LifeChurch.tv (http://www.lifechurch.tv/Default.aspx/p/39?SermonID=83&CategoryID=2)

Easy180
05-01-2007, 08:28 AM
Yeah, this guy is really a joke. He should immediately resign his position as a minister (and I use that term loosely), especially since he is now preaching against what the Bible says.

God is a loving God, but He is also a just God. Everybody makes their own decision whether to believe or not believe. God doesn't send anyone to hell.....they make that choice when they refuse to believe in Him.

This "minister" is a phony and is somewhat confused. Now, he is in process of confusing other people. But hey, he got his publicity...didn't he?

So Keith those who somehow can't get their brains to comprehend or know for certain there is a god are actually refusing to believe?

Wonder how I can trick my mind into believing something that makes little sense to it...Refusal has nothing to do with it whatsoever

jbrown84
05-01-2007, 09:24 AM
You can not believe the Bible and not be a Christian, or you can believe it, but this guy and many other "Liberal" Christians think they can have it both ways--throw 70% of it out (including the fundamental belief) and still be followers of God. NO.

BailJumper
05-01-2007, 10:59 AM
oops wrong post

jbkrems
05-01-2007, 11:59 AM
I agree with many who have already posted here that what Carlton preaches is not right. It is the so-called "gospel of inclusion," better known as universalism, which is basically heretical, and not orthodox Christian doctrine. The concept that everyone goes to heaven no matter what, and that hell does not exist is clearly against the Scriptures.

What Ms. Blume and KFOR do not say in their article and news story is the other side to this story. Rev. Pearson has been disavowed by every single Pentecostal and charismatic minister I know. He has been banned from preaching on the campus of Oral Roberts University (where he got his degree). The thousands who have left his church have done so rightly, not wanting to be unsanctily loyal.

About a year ago I met a girl who grew up at Higher Dimensions, the former name for Pearson's once vibrant church in Tulsa (back when it had 5000). At that time, the famous Christian singer Carman was a member. He and Carlton did a music video, which this girl is is actually in. She's now a student at OU in Norman, which is where I met her. She told me that she is in disbelief with what Carlton now preaches, as are her parents, who no longer attends Carlton's church.

Carlton Pearson is a heretic and does not believe what the Bible teaches. Its very clear to me that he should be avoided by anyone who is a serious Christian, esp. Pentecostals and charismatics.

Anyways, those are my two cents, for what its worth. :)

Tim
05-01-2007, 12:27 PM
I agree with many who have already posted here that what Carlton preaches is not right. It is the so-called "gospel of inclusion," better known as universalism, which is basically heretical, and not orthodox Christian doctrine. The concept that everyone goes to heaven no matter what, and that hell does not exist is clearly against the Scriptures.

What Ms. Blume and KFOR do not say in their article and news story is the other side to this story. Rev. Pearson has been disavowed by every single Pentecostal and charismatic minister I know. He has been banned from preaching on the campus of Oral Roberts University (where he got his degree). The thousands who have left his church have done so rightly, not wanting to be unsanctily loyal.

About a year ago I met a girl who grew up at Higher Dimensions, the former name for Pearson's once vibrant church in Tulsa (back when it had 5000). At that time, the famous Christian singer Carman was a member. He and Carlton did a music video, which this girl is is actually in. She's now a student at OU in Norman, which is where I met her. She told me that she is in disbelief with what Carlton now preaches, as are her parents, who no longer attends Carlton's church.

Carlton Pearson is a heretic and does not believe what the Bible teaches. Its very clear to me that he should be avoided by anyone who is a serious Christian, esp. Pentecostals and charismatics.

Anyways, those are my two cents, for what its worth. :)

Let me see if I get your message...anyone who believes differently from me is a heretic. Heretics are sinners. Sinners burn in hell. I'll save you a seat.

jbkrems
05-02-2007, 01:03 AM
Tim,

No, that's not my message. I didn't say anyone who believes differently from me is a heretic. Why did you read that into my post and make that inference???

You can believe differently from me (to an extent) and not be a heretic.

Tim --- are you a Christian? Have you received Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? If so, then you don't believe differently than I do, and that's all that matters. If you're not a Christian, please say so, and we can move on, and discuss this from a different angle.

Thanks.

Tim
05-02-2007, 08:21 AM
Tim,

No, that's not my message. I didn't say anyone who believes differently from me is a heretic. Why did you read that into my post and make that inference???

You can believe differently from me (to an extent) and not be a heretic.

Tim --- are you a Christian? Have you received Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? If so, then you don't believe differently than I do, and that's all that matters. If you're not a Christian, please say so, and we can move on, and discuss this from a different angle.

Thanks.
No, I am not a practicing Christian. While I have great respect for the beliefs of others, I have a real problem with groups or individuals who insist that their way is the only way. Radical fundamentalism by ANY faith group is very, very dangerous and has no place in an enlightened society. You can worship however you like, and should be allowed to do so freely. So should I.

BailJumper
05-02-2007, 08:33 AM
Hmmmmmm ^^^^^ What he said ^^^^^

Easy180
05-02-2007, 09:58 AM
No, I am not a practicing Christian. While I have great respect for the beliefs of others, I have a real problem with groups or individuals who insist that their way is the only way. Radical fundamentalism by ANY faith group is very, very dangerous and has no place in an enlightened society. You can worship however you like, and should be allowed to do so freely. So should I.

Feel exactly the same Tim....I actually consider myself a free agent..So many different religions and beliefs one of them is bound to be right and I don't want to be on the opposing team

Think whatever religion wins out after - life wise that the free agents would be accepted more quickly than those who worshipped the wrong dude or dudette

Just playing it safe :tiphat:

Tim
05-02-2007, 10:19 AM
Indeed! I have no postmortem stake in angering anyone. Pissing off humans is OK I guess...

CuatrodeMayo
05-02-2007, 10:26 AM
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The true essence of Christianity. From Jesus Himself. What is so dangerous about that?

writerranger
05-02-2007, 10:56 AM
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The true essence of Christianity. From Jesus Himself. What is so dangerous about that?

Tit for tat - we could do it all day long. HERE's one that's dangerous:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34-39

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Easy180
05-02-2007, 11:14 AM
Tit for tat - we could do it all day long. HERE's one that's dangerous:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34-39

-----------

Wow....That one is sure comforting writerranger

Tim
05-02-2007, 11:26 AM
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The true essence of Christianity. From Jesus Himself. What is so dangerous about that?
Cuatro, if all Christians truly practiced those two concepts we would have far fewer problems in the world. Sadly, that is not the case with Christians, Muslims, Buddhists ad infinitum. IMHO the danger lies in refusing to accept that someone else's belief system is just as valid as your own.

jbrown84
05-02-2007, 11:41 AM
Jesus himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through me."

writerranger
05-02-2007, 11:55 AM
And Jason, I truly respect your deeply held convictions. I hate it that it almost seems like my, and other, posts seem like we're trying to change minds. At least in my case, that's not the case. I respect religion and the role it plays in the lives of believers. I KNOW it can be a positive thing - as it is for you. With that said, every one of the other religions mentioned have similar statements of exclusivity. Islam clearly teaches that there is no way to heaven (and the virgins) except through Allah. The problem with religions pointing to their own sacred books as "proof" is somewhat akin to a homebuilder pointing to his own portfolio as "proof" his homes are the best. "It says so right there!" But again, I respect your convictions and you seem like a well-rounded, well-adjusted individual. Don't change a thing. Ignore our rants. It can be tiring to defend something that - to you - needs no defending. I'm still up for coffee sometime. There are a few posters here I would like to sit down with - you're one of them.

----------------------

CuatrodeMayo
05-02-2007, 11:57 AM
Tit for tat - we could do it all day long. HERE's one that's dangerous:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34-39

-----------

If you read that passage in context Jesus is referring to that fact that in order to follow Him, there will be conflict. Not everyone will be happy when a person decides to follow Jesus whole-heartedly.

Easy180
05-02-2007, 11:59 AM
Jesus himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through me."

Do the millions of Muslims just have it completely wrong jbrown?...Couldn't be they were just born into Muslim dominated societies and raised as one much like those born into Christian dominated societies...Vast majority of all religious people were simply raised or taught to think that way

Muslims and Christians may believe all they want, but there is no way of ever proving who is right....After all it all just boils down to having faith you are on the right team

writerranger
05-02-2007, 12:24 PM
Do the millions of Muslims just have it completely wrong jbrown?...Couldn't be they were just born into Muslim dominated societies and raised as one much like those born into Christian dominated societies...Vast majority of all religious people were simply raised or taught to think that way

Muslims and Christians may believe all they want, but there is no way of ever proving who is right....After all it all just boils down to having faith you are on the right team

This is true and what I was really saying. If you think about it, your religious beliefs are really a product of where you were born. Geography. I think the mystery of life and the universe is bigger than that. I am NOT an atheist. I think that takes too much "faith" too. I believe there IS something. But, I picture it as more mind-blowing than we could even begin to imagine. I have said in other posts here a year or so ago that it's probably closer to Saturday afternoon science fiction movies of the fifties than what's taught at Sunday morning church.

----------------------

Tim
05-02-2007, 12:34 PM
Jesus himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through me."

And that is precisely the reason I consider fundamentalism dangerous. That sentence clearly states that unless you accept Jesus you cannot be saved. I disagree, and can't quite understand why that bothers some folks. Jbrown, you are an intelligent, rational person and I respect you greatly. Can you 'splain this to me?

jbrown84
05-02-2007, 12:48 PM
Writerranger, thank you for your comments and I respect your views as well.

Tim, I don't know exactly how you are defining "fundamentalism", because usually in Christian circles that is applied to the types that say women shouldn't wear pants and you are wrong if you use any version besides the King James Version. Believing what Jesus said in that passage is pretty much common to all Christianity. If you don't believe what Jesus himself said, you might as well leave Christianity behind.

To "'splain" it to you, Christian doctrine for salvation is unique apart from all other religions. It is not a "works" doctrine. If you believe in the Christian method of salvation, it makes sense that other people are missing the boat because it's not about just being good people or loving others.

BUT, I do not hate people of other religious beliefs and they have the right to believe as they do. This is just what I believe.

Easy180
05-02-2007, 01:04 PM
Writerranger, thank you for your comments and I respect your views as well.

Tim, I don't know exactly how you are defining "fundamentalism", because usually in Christian circles that is applied to the types that say women shouldn't wear pants and you are wrong if you use any version besides the King James Version. Believing what Jesus said in that passage is pretty much common to all Christianity. If you don't believe what Jesus himself said, you might as well leave Christianity behind.

To "'splain" it to you, Christian doctrine for salvation is unique apart from all other religions. It is not a "works" doctrine. If you believe in the Christian method of salvation, it makes sense that other people are missing the boat because it's not about just being good people or loving others.

BUT, I do not hate people of other religious beliefs and they have the right to believe as they do. This is just what I believe.

In other words it is the ultimate marketing tool jbrown...You are either in or you burn in hell for eternity

I'm fairly certain that Sunday church membership would be instantly halved if this wasn't written into scriptures

Tim
05-02-2007, 01:05 PM
The American Heritage Dictionary defines fundamentalism as "A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principals, by rigid adherence to those principals, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."
Time and time again I have tried to get across the message that I really don't care what religion anyone practices, I just don't understand why persons of faith almost uniformly agree that anyone not practicing their particular brand is going to hell. Am I the only one to grasp the absurdity of "Our God is a loving God, but He will send you to hell in a heartbeat!" ?

Easy180
05-02-2007, 01:10 PM
The American Heritage Dictionary defines fundamentalism as "A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principals, by rigid adherence to those principals, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."
Time and time again I have tried to get across the message that I really don't care what religion anyone practices, I just don't understand why persons of faith almost uniformly agree that anyone not practicing their particular brand is going to hell. Am I the only one to grasp the absurdity of "Our God is a loving God, but He will send you to hell in a heartbeat!" ?

I would define absurd as believing 70% of the world is destined for hell Tim

Works out to be approx. 4.5 Billion people headed south

Tim
05-02-2007, 01:14 PM
I would define absurd as believing 70% of the world is destined for hell Tim

Do we have to bring our own lawnchairs? Are coolers allowed? What about pets?

Easy180
05-02-2007, 01:22 PM
Do we have to bring our own lawnchairs? Are coolers allowed? What about pets?

I wonder if all deceased pets are already in hell since they lack the capacity to believe OR is it just non Christian deceased pets based solely on their masters affiliation?

If it's so then I would bet there would be a lot more puppies asking questions before they allowed themselves to be adopted out :sofa:

okcnative
05-02-2007, 01:26 PM
I was brought up believing in God and in Jesus Christ. I was also taught to respect others’ religious beliefs and to understand how personal religious beliefs can be to someone. My father taught me that for some people, a very stringent and narrow doctrine is necessary because without those guiding parameters, some people --- even some groups of people --- can not function well. They need those guidelines. So I do not challenge anyone’s religious beliefs. Rather, I respect that people have their religious beliefs for a very personal reason. It is an integral part of their being.

Having explained my views on religion, I am not posting this to challenge or argue over anyone’s beliefs. I am posting this to shed some light on Carlton Pearson’s “Doctrine of Inclusion” and to demonstrate that it is nothing new.

Simply stated, the Doctrine of Inclusion is a biblically-based belief about Christ’s purpose: “He came not to judge the world but to save the world.” (John 12:47) Notice there are no limitations on this purpose such as “save part of the world,” or “save those who are in the ‘right’ church.”

The Bible also tells us that God sent His Son for the purpose to “reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross.” (Col. 1:20) Notice, the phrase, “all things.” It seems like many believers want to believe they are the only ones invited into Heaven.

Yet, in 1 Tim. 4:9-10, we are told: “This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.”

“All.” There’s that word again. There is no limit when the word “all” is used.

Earlier in Timothy, Christ’s purpose is once again directed for “all” and no one is left out: “God will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Tim. 2:4).

And finally, there is this: “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32). ALL. “ALL” is the simple basis for Carlton Pearson’s “Doctrine of Inclusion.”

But what about that “no Hell” part of Pearson’s doctrine?

If one has studied the Bible, its origins, the authors, the subsequent translations and most-importantly, politics through the ages, one realizes the Bible has been through many changes, edits, interpretations and versions. The Scriptures were translated from Hebrew and Greek to Latin by Jerome. Jerome made several mistakes in his translation. In the Dark Age, people were actually forbidden from reading The Scriptures. During this time, mythological characters, pagan rituals and stories were added to The Scriptures as the stories were passed along verbally. One of the most-lasting additions was the everlasting punishment of Hell. The word “Hell” comes from Teutonic mythology, NOT from the sacred Hebrew and Greek Scriptures.

There are many different versions of the English Bible, some translations which to not contain the concept of Hell. Although not frequently used by the Hell-teaching churches, a few of these Bibles are Young’s Literal, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Weymouth’s N.T. in Modern Speech, Concordant Literal N.T., and 20th Century N.T.

There were actually several different schools of theological thought in the early church (the first five or six centuries A.D.) Four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Then, Emperor Constantine militarized the church and used the concept of Hell as a weapon of control over his people. Eventually, those who did not believe in Hell were persecuted. So the idea became the mainstream rather than the minority.

It remains so today. The idea of salvation for everyone is considered to be heresy, rather than the other way around. History, politics, translations, and thousands of men involved in the translation of The Scriptures and “the church” have dramatically changed the interpretation of God’s Word.

Is it wrong to believe in The Scriptures in the earliest years following Christ’s death --- before so many factions began to rewrite them? Is it wrong to have great faith in God’s love, mercy and power? Is it wrong to believe God will not go back on His word by trashing most of the people His Son came to save?

In the United States, all people have the right to worship according to their own beliefs. So is there a “wrong” way to worship? I suppose only God can make that judgment.

Tim
05-02-2007, 01:35 PM
okcnative, that was spot on. Thanks for taking the time to post that!

jbkrems
05-02-2007, 02:23 PM
okcnative and Tim,

Before I respond to okcnative's post above, I want to thank Tim for his honesty that you're not a believer. That's OK. God loves you, and I appreciate your honesty, because now I can understand where you are coming from.

I am a Christian, and an "evangelical" one at that (so is Metro here), but I would not consider myself a fundamentalist. Probably the one characteristic of fundamentalism that is NOT me is the intolerance of other views. If you're my brother and sister in Christ, then you might believe differently than I do in some areas (e.g. spiritual gifts, eternal security, etc.), and that is OK. BUT --- if you are not a Christian, then that is totally different, andwe're not in the same ballpark, to use a familiar analogy.

There are some "Christian" groups out there who really are NOT in the same ballpark as Christians. One such group, before I address Carlton, are the Unitarian Universalists. Yes, they identify themselves as "Christians," but that does not mean the label fits them. The reason why I am honing on this is because there are certain issues in Christianity that I consider to be "essential." One such "essential" is that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and that you must ACCEPT Him as your Lord and Savior by FAITH in Him and what He did on the cross. But Unitarians, because they are universalists, fall outside this "essential." They believe, much like Carlton Pearson does, that EVERYONE goes to heaven, no matter what. This is because the "Gospel of Inclusion," is just another name for the doctrine of Universalism.

Thus, both Carlton Pearson and Unitarian Universalists are outside of Christianity on the account of the doctrine of Universalism (or the "Gospel of Inclusion"). As a corrollary, Universalism IS a heresy because it is outside the "essentials" of Christianity, and thus this doctrine, and its adherents, should be avoided, IF you are a Christian. If you're NOT a Christian, then that's a different story. God loves you, but you need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. And that's my word for Tim.

Now, let me respond to okcnative. I take it from your post that you agree with Carlton and his Doctrine of Inclusion. At least you defend the concept very well. However, there are some points you made that I'd like to clarify. I'm not trying to argue or debate you, but feel free to respond when you read this.

First, my Bible, which is the NAS or New American Standard, says 1 Tim. 2:4 a little differently than your Bible. I don't know which version you were quoting from, but the NAS renders 1 Tim. 2:3-4 as this: "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who DESIRES all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Notice that word "desire." Its important.

Second, if God desires all men to be saved, then God must have designed a way for them to become saved. This was through Jesus dying for man's sins on the cross. However, one must ACCEPT this atonement by FAITH. If you don't do that, then you aren't saved. Romans 10:9-10 says very clearly, "If you confess with your Jesus as Lord, and BELIEVE in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." It is very clear to me by this passage and others that believing is required for salvation.

Yes, I do believe it is God's will for all men to be saved. However, while I do believe that God is Sovereign, that does not mean His will automatically comes to past. There are no "magic wands" with God. The Bible is clear in several places that God puts a premium on obedience. You must have faith. You must harken to what it says in the Scriptures. God does not wave a "magic wand," and poof, everyone is saved. You have to choose salvation and believe. Not every person walks in God's will for their life, even if they are a Christian, and non-Christians are outside the will of God for their life because they are not saved.

Now, okcnative, regarding hell. The concept of hell does NOT trace to the Teutons, as you suggested by your post. This is factually inaccurate, because Jewish people believed in hell. They believed in hades, which was their abode for the dead, and they believed in gahenna, which we could call eternal torment. What Christians call "hell" is basically a very similar belief to the Jewish one, except what is left of hell is basically gahenna, a place of eternal torment for those who permanently fail to accept the atonement of Jesus for their sins.

okcnative, I take it by reading your post above that you've been hurt by Christians. On behalf of Christ-followers here locally, I'm sorry that you've been hurt, and I apologize. Please forgive us. And please come back home, so that you can be once again part of the flock that you have since departed.

jbrown84
05-02-2007, 04:20 PM
"Our God is a loving God, but He will send you to hell in a heartbeat!" ?


That's the very point. The Bible teaches that God is both loving and just, not just loving as the preacher in question (along with Robin Meyers and his United Church of Christ) would have you believe. Because man is naturally evil and God is just, he can't ignore that we deserve "hell", but because he is also loving he provided a way out for those that would believe.

okcnative
05-02-2007, 04:28 PM
Jbkrems ~

I appreciate your beliefs and your kindness.

There is one thing you said with which I must take issue: I did not say the concept of Hell came from Teutonic mythology. Specifically, I said the WORD, hell, has it origins there. The Teutonic Goddess of the Dead and daughter of Loki was named Hel, a Pagan god of torture and punishment. This is factually correct.

As I said at the beginning of my previous post, I am not challenging anyone’s beliefs here. Rather, I took the opportunity to discuss the “Doctrine of Inclusion” as it stands today. Granted, it --- like many other doctrines --- has changed through time. Generally speaking, it is one of many beliefs under the big umbrella of restorationism. Restorationism refers to a number of religious movements that believe defects were introduced by churches and politics into Christianity.

Whether or not I agree or disagree with a certain doctrine is unimportant. Understanding the doctrine so one can consider and discuss it was the point of my explanation.

I understand and respect your views on Christianity, as I do the beliefs of most people searching for a God-filled life. And, no --- I haven’t been hurt by Christians. Quite the contrary. I have been blessed to have many wonderful Christians in my Christian life. Also, I have been blessed to have many wonderful non-Christians in my Christian life, as well.

However, I find it rather judgmental for you to jump to the conclusion that just by discussing a topic of religion which you can not endorse, that I must have been “hurt” by Christians or that I have “departed” from the flock. Neither is true. Still, in jumping to that conclusion, you have shown yourself to be very judgmental --- the very thing that tends to turn away non-believers from believers.

windowphobe
05-02-2007, 06:37 PM
I suspect hell is rather like the Belle Isle Bridge with an inch and a half of ice.

jbkrems
05-02-2007, 11:33 PM
Jbrown: Amen.

Okcnative: Interesting. I would argue, however, that the Teutons modified the Judeo-Christian concept of hades/gahenna/hell and created something out of that, rather than the other way around.

I'm sorry that you believe I was being judgmental. Perhaps "prejudicial" is a better word. I don't know. Its just that some of your comments gave me the impression that you had been "hurt" somewhere along the way (haven't we all), and I was trying to reach out to you with love and compassion. Maybe I was wrong, and for that I am sorry. But I did not mean to be judgmental towards you, I was actually trying to be compassionate.

okcnative
05-03-2007, 12:37 PM
You make me want to go back and research the concept and the word "hell." I shall do so and let you know what I find. I suspect you may be correct.

I truly appreciate your kindness and concern.

And the world can use all the compassion we have to give in these times. So please, continue sharing it with anyone you believe needs it!

Tim
05-04-2007, 01:30 PM
That's the very point. The Bible teaches that God is both loving and just, not just loving as the preacher in question (along with Robin Meyers and his United Church of Christ) would have you believe. Because man is naturally evil and God is just, he can't ignore that we deserve "hell", but because he is also loving he provided a way out for those that would believe.
Since when is man evil by nature? Who determined that? How do you know I deserve hell because I don't subscribe to your particular faith? That's my basic problem with organized religion. Doesn't matter who you are, how you live, what you do to others; if you believe in my God, you will be saved, and if you don't it's off to hell with ya! In seminary many years ago I learned the "Riddle of the ignorant savage" which asks if a man lived in the deepest jungle and was a good man, kind to his family, a helpmate to his neighbors and a wise and loving father to his children, but because of his remote dwelling place had never been exposed to the teachings of Christ, would he be allowed entry to heaven?
The correct doctrinal answer? No. That was my last day in seminary.

Easy180
05-04-2007, 01:38 PM
Since when is man evil by nature? Who determined that? How do you know I deserve hell because I don't subscribe to your particular faith? That's my basic problem with organized religion. Doesn't matter who you are, how you live, what you do to others; if you believe in my God, you will be saved, and if you don't it's off to hell with ya! In seminary many years ago I learned the "Riddle of the ignorant savage" which asks if a man lived in the deepest jungle and was a good man, kind to his family, a helpmate to his neighbors and a wise and loving father to his children, but because of his remote dwelling place had never been exposed to the teachings of Christ, would he be allowed entry to heaven?
The correct doctrinal answer? No. That was my last day in seminary.

So what you are saying this guy didn't have a Lifechurch location within 50 miles Tim?...Get outta here with that nonsense!

MadMonk
05-04-2007, 02:13 PM
Being no expert on this subject by any means, I'm jumping into this discussion at the risk of ridicule so go easy on me. :)

However, it seems to me that justice - as in a "just" God - is a human concept that to an omnipotent being would be rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things. There is no such thing as "justice" outside of humanity.

jbrown84
05-04-2007, 02:31 PM
Since when is man evil by nature? Who determined that?

We are instinctively selfish. "Love your neighbor as yourself" goes against our nature. Toddlers are brats for a reason. If man is basically good, how come utopia has never worked? How come the world is constantly seeing terrible, evil things happen?

It's like the movie The Village. If you've seen it you know what I mean.

jbrown84
05-04-2007, 02:33 PM
However, it seems to me that justice - as in a "just" God - is a human concept that to an omnipotent being would be rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things. There is no such thing as "justice" outside of humanity.

I would argue there would be no idea of justice if it weren't for a Godly precedent. Primitive cultures had no religion and there was no system of justice when wrong was done.


Why would justice be insignificant to God? So human ideas of justice are more evolved than a higher being?

MadMonk
05-04-2007, 03:10 PM
I would argue there would be no idea of justice if it weren't for a Godly precedent. Primitive cultures had no religion and there was no system of justice when wrong was done.

I don't know about that. I would think that there was such a thing as vengence or "payback" between tribes that trespassed against each other before religion was introduced. Justice has its roots in and evolved from the concept of vengence.



Why would justice be insignificant to God? So human ideas of justice are more evolved than a higher being?
No, quite the opposite. What use in all the universe does an omnipotent God have for a quaint human ideal such as justice?

jbrown84
05-04-2007, 03:23 PM
Punishment of wrong.

Tim
05-06-2007, 09:16 AM
We are instinctively selfish. "Love your neighbor as yourself" goes against our nature. Toddlers are brats for a reason. If man is basically good, how come utopia has never worked? How come the world is constantly seeing terrible, evil things happen?


It's like the movie The Village. If you've seen it you know what I mean.
That's a rather depressing view of mankind. Toddlers are self centered because they have to be to survive. They are incapable of meeting their own needs and must demand those needs be met by adults. It has nothing to do with "good" or "evil". How do you explain all of the wonderful acts of kindness and self-sacrifice that happen every day? I refuse to believe that humans are by nature evil. You might as yourself how that can be if (according to your belief system) we are created in god's image. If your statement is accurate, then god is inherently evil.

Martin
05-06-2007, 01:44 PM
i think the question, 'is there a hell?' can only be answered within the context of some kind of structured belief system. while the world's different religions have (or omit) their own concept of hell, the idea really doesn't make sense from an atheist or agnostic perspective. at that point, the discussion is relegated to each individual's opinion of how the universe works.

shakespeare calls death 'the undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveller returns'... nobody has been to hell and back. there are no known ways of using empirical evidence to scientifically locate or quantify hell's boundaries. physically, there's no way to prove or disprove hell. therefore without any structured basis of authority or faith to serve as a point of reference, each of our opinions on the subject are no more valid than anybody else's.

given that pearson subscribes to christian theology, i'll answer from that standpoint... besides that, i think that was the original intent of the question. so... does christianity teach that there is a hell? using scripture as the basis of christian faith, i'll disagree with pearson and say that hell does exist. the christian portion of the bible definitely contains scripture that either directly states or implies a reward for those who follow god and a punishment for those who do not.

while the word 'hell' and some of the connotations associated with it don't exist in the original greek text of the scriptures, the concept of eternal punishment does. there are three greek words that have been translated into 'hell' in the new testament: hades, gehenna and tartarus. in greek, hades is seen as the dwelling place of all spirits in the afterlife... whether good or evil. therefore in these instances using 'hell' has unintended connotations and thus modern translations have opted not to use 'hell' when the original manuscripts use the word, 'hades'. However, the words 'gehenna' and 'tartarus' do parallel the concept of hell as they also connote an eternal place of punishment for the dead.

it has been suggested that the concept of hell is an erroneous late addition to christian scripture and that translations exist that do not contain it. from the translations given as examples, i submit 2 thessalonians 1:8,9 to show that the concept of eternal punishment is part of all scripture... even in these particular translations.

2 thess. 1:8,9:

young's literal:
in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing god, and to those not obeying the good news of our lord jesus christ; who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the lord, and from the glory of his strength,

rotherham’s emphasized:
in a fiery flame; holding forth vengeance--against them that refuse to know god, and them who decline to hearken unto the glad-message of our lord jesus, who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay--age-abiding destruction from the face of the lord and from the glory of his might--

weymouth nt:
he will come in flames of fire to take vengeance on those who have no knowledge of god, and do not obey the good news as to jesus, our lord. they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the lord and from his glorious majesty,

concordant literal nt:
in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with god and those who are not obeying the evangel of our lord jesus christ -- who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the lord, and from the glory of his strength --

20th century nt:
then he will 'inflict punishment upon those who refuse to know god, and upon those who turn a deaf ear' to the good news of jesus, our lord. these men will pay the penalty of unutterable ruin--banished 'from the presence of the lord and from the glorious manifestation of his might,

-M

Dark Jedi
05-21-2007, 11:49 AM
Sticker on my Jeep:

"It's your hell, You burn in it."

Easy180
05-21-2007, 11:57 AM
Sticker on my Jeep:

"It's your hell, You burn in it."

That's good stuff right there...Sure you get some pretty scary stares with that sticker

JerzeeGrlinOKC
05-27-2007, 10:40 AM
Oh man...last night I made a promise to myself to stop posting on the "Faith and Values" board because it just seems to go nowhere...but then this morning, after a cup of coffee and a revisit to the forbidden page, I decided to chime in, but coming from another direction.

OK, starters, I was born and raised in a Jewish household. This is not to say that I'm Jewish, necessarily, I'm sort of an agnostic type, just learning still and haven't found my place yet. There have been many attempts, however, to convert me with a threat that I'll burn in hell, and I just sort of laugh because that's not the spiritual Christianity I would ever convert for. I think Christianity is a beautiful religion in its justice and message, and I love the Gospels and I interpret them similarly to the founder of the "New Dimensions" church. To that pastor, I just have to say "rock on" and I hope your church grows.

With that being said, I wanted to bring a Jewish perspective to this discussion. Jews do not have a unifying definition of the afterlife, and it is not clearly defined in the Torah. But there is this idea that performing "mitzvot" or good deeds throughout one's life, is something you do out of love and respect for the Lord. It is why after so many years of persecution, faithful Jews have kept their traditions together and pursue mitzvot in spite of outside pressures. A blurb I think sums it up nicely from Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife (http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm)

"Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d, not the afterlife] be upon you." - by the way, and observant Jew will not spell out "God", but I never claimed to be an observant Jew...

The website also goes on to say that most Jewish afterlife scenarios do not specify whether only Jews go to the "nice place" (i.e. a heaven of sorts) but more historically make the assumption that those (during the time of the formation of the Torah/and Talmud) who were not Jewish were not righteous (pagans, etc) and thefefore might not get the best digs after death.

Personally, I just don't beleive in hell at all, or heaven for that matter, but more out of just admitting that "I don't know", I'm not saying I can guarantee not. What I can say is that I will try to be a good person for the sake of listening to my conscience (my former Rabbi used to say, "tune into WGOD, the radio station in your brain that tells you what is right and what is not", cheesy, but it makes sense) and hope that all turns out right in the end. And that is just that. :tiphat:

Easy180
05-27-2007, 04:53 PM
Personally, I just don't beleive in hell at all, or heaven for that matter, but more out of just admitting that "I don't know", I'm not saying I can guarantee not. What I can say is that I will try to be a good person for the sake of listening to my conscience (my former Rabbi used to say, "tune into WGOD, the radio station in your brain that tells you what is right and what is not", cheesy, but it makes sense) and hope that all turns out right in the end. And that is just that. :tiphat:

Sums up my stance perfectly jerzee...It is complete guesswork since there are no facts or evidence to back up anything regarding hell or heaven...I don't know is the best I can do right now until I can see some hard evidence...My brain won't let me accept something w/o it

Once I see it I will gladly buy in...Until then all religious people are just hoping the team they are on end up winning the division...Religion does do great things for many people as it gives them something to strive for and creates structure in their lives, but I do just fine w/o it