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Theo Walcott
04-19-2007, 12:08 PM
Given some of the recent developments in the last week with the Sonics in Seattle and it looking ever so likely that they'll leave, I think the focus of Maps 3 should shift somewhat.

On another board, I read an excellent suggestion for Maps, and I figured we could give it a go here and discuss what people think.

The idea would be to construct a new facility near the new downtown boulevard following the completion of the I-40 project. The facility would be a truely state of the art venue with a feature that would seriously put OKC on the national consciousness.

Essentially, it would involve cutting edge engineering and architechtural techniques where the facility could cleanly expand or retract from 22,000-50,000 seats. There has to be a way to design a facility with the latest technology that could expand and retract in a flawless and seamless manner. Done this way, the arena's primary tenant would be the NBA with seating for 22,000 or so in its "standard" configuration. However, when expanded to 50,000, the configuration could change for hosting amazing events like the NBA all-star game, the Final Four, college football bowl games, and any other number of activities.

I realize other venues have been used in the multipurpose context (namely the Alamodome in San Antonio), but that kind of a conventional configuration is nowhere near what is envisioned here.

JavaDaves
04-19-2007, 12:10 PM
With us already having the Ford Center, a very versatile arena that can be improved upon, I don't think building a new arena at this point would be a smart idea. We have a brand new arena already. Maybe 20-30 years from now when the Ford Center is aging, we can disscuss this.

I think the SanAntonio Spurs situation with the Alamo Dome shows you that larger domed structures aren't necessarily the best for NBA basketball. The Ford Center is perfect.

Theo Walcott
04-19-2007, 12:11 PM
Here is the text from the original post describing this facility:

I'd like to see a new arena someday that is sort of a modern "mini-dome". Something that seats 40,000 so Oklahoma can host it's own college bowl game (makes sense since we love college football), the final four, etc. But can also be configured for a cozy 20,000 for NBA hoops.

I have no idea how it would be built, but I am talking about an arena that is unique. Like nothing out there right now. I said 40,000 max because that would be the minimum for a mid-level college bowl game and a final four, but in my utopian plan, it would be something with retractable walls and ceilings (or something like that) that would allow it to go from 40,000 for football to a cozy 20,000 for NBA hoops.

There are people out there alot smarter than us that could create such a concept. Retractable seats, walls, ceilings. A way to make basketball fans right on top of the action with good sightlines in an intimate setting (basketball wise), luxury suites, club seating, huge locker rooms, a NBA practice facilty, and at the same time turn it into a 40,000 seat "mini-dome" for college football or a final four.

It sounds far-fetched and makes me say, "why hasn't someone done it yet"? I don't know, al lI do know is there are a lot of smart engineers and architechs that could probably figure out a way to make it work.

I know you're talking big bucks. Raise my sales tax, I'd happily pay it.

Theo Walcott
04-19-2007, 12:13 PM
With us already having the Ford Center, a very versatile arena that can be improved upon, I don't think building a new arena at this point would be a smart idea. We have a brand new arena already. Maybe 20-30 years from now when the Ford Center is aging, we can disscuss this.

I think the SanAntonio Spurs situation with the Alamo Dome shows you that larger domed structures aren't necessarily the best for NBA basketball. The Ford Center is perfect.

I hate to break it to you, but the Ford Center will need to be replaced within a 5-10 year period. It has ALREADY paid for itself.

Easy180
04-19-2007, 12:17 PM
Absolutely...Bennett has made it known the Ford Center will do for a while, but a new arena will be needed asap...I would say 3 to 5 years max

Maps 3 would need to be tweaked if the Sonics are coming to town...Gotta pay to play

ultimatesooner
04-19-2007, 12:19 PM
The inside of the Ford Center looks like an arena where they ran out of $$ when they were about 65% finished, I thought it looked like crap on the inside from the begining.

If we land a permanent franchise, we definately need a better arena

Patrick
04-19-2007, 12:21 PM
I disagree. Stern has said the Ford Center is in the middle when it comes to arenas in the league. I think we need to be spending money on other things right now than new arenas, when we already have a brand spankin' new arena.

PUGalicious
04-19-2007, 12:26 PM
I think the SanAntonio Spurs situation with the Alamo Dome shows you that larger domed structures aren't necessarily the best for NBA basketball. The Ford Center is perfect.
Most NBA teams would say it falls well short of perfect.

I'm with Easy on this one.

Easy180
04-19-2007, 12:30 PM
Patrick get that post outta here...If Bennett sees you're argument he will head to KC :ohno:

Actually I've heard calling it a middle of the road NBA arena is being very generous

JavaDaves
04-19-2007, 12:30 PM
I can't see the city spending a great sum of money on a new arena when we have a new arena. I can however, see the city spending money to make some serious upgrades to the Ford Center, to improve the overall appearance of the inside of the arena, and to improve its functionality.

Easy180
04-19-2007, 12:37 PM
Java...Another factor you have to consider is OKC is a lower level small market...We can't get away with having a subpar arena like an L.A. or NY can

The Ford Center will have to be upgraded, but that will only do for the short term

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 12:38 PM
Yeah, I would say spend a good amount to improve the Ford Center and tide us over for 10 years.

writerranger
04-19-2007, 12:41 PM
Actually I've heard calling it a middle of the road NBA arena is being very generous

I agree, Easy. What makes it "middle of the road" is factoring in the older arenas in the league. For a new arena - it clearly falls short of a great NBA venue.....or any kind of venue really. It's a very spartan place. Functional, but that's all.

--------------

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 12:46 PM
It's a very spartan place. Functional, but that's all.

Kind of like the difference between the old airport and the new one.

writerranger
04-19-2007, 12:50 PM
Kind of like the difference between the old airport and the new one.

There you go. An excellent analogy.

--------

Patrick
04-19-2007, 12:51 PM
Yeah, I would say spend a good amount to improve the Ford Center and tide us over for 10 years.

I can agree with that. So what do we do with the Ford Center in 10 years?

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Going back to the airport, could the Ford Center be gutted and improved on the same level?

okclee
04-19-2007, 12:58 PM
Ford Center will be history in approx 2-4 years, as far as the NBA goes. We need to build the greatest arena in the world and I am talking around the 500 million dollar range.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:05 PM
I just think we have a lot bigger priorities right now, like a new convention center. I think the Ford Center should last us another 10 years, at least. It's not as bad as you guys are making it out to be, especially with appropriate improvements.

PUGalicious
04-19-2007, 01:11 PM
I just think we have a lot bigger priorities right now, like a new convention center. I think the Ford Center should last us another 10 years, at least. It's not as bad as you guys are making it out to be, especially with appropriate improvements.
I guess any prospective NBA team would be the ultimate judge of that.

okclee
04-19-2007, 01:19 PM
NBA Arenas live in dog years..........the Ford center is 5 years old in human years but that is 35 in dog years, this is the prime of it's life, in 5 more years it will be time to retire at 70.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:26 PM
That's ridiculous. Guys, the Rockets were in the Compaq Center for almost 30 years. How many years was Reunion Arena around?

Spending all that money to build the Ford Center, only for it to last 5 years is crazy, IMHO. This city will NOT build a new arena, with the Ford Center just having been completed recently. We still have a NEW arena.

PUGalicious
04-19-2007, 01:30 PM
Spending all that money to build the Ford Center, only for it to last 5 years is crazy, IMHO. This city will NOT build a new arena, with the Ford Center just having been completed recently. We still have a NEW arena.

That's an awful tough stance for a city to take if it really wants to lure an NBA team here. Why would Bennett & Co. want to move from one obstinate city to another?

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:32 PM
That's an awful tough stance for a city to take if it really wants to lure an NBA team here. Why would Bennett & Co. want to move from one obstinate city to another?

So what are we going to do, spend $500 million every 5 years to build a new arena? I don't know any city that would do that. The city of Seattle is different....they have a 30 year old arena that needs replacing. When the Ford Center is 20-30 years old, it will need replacing as well. For now, we have a new arena.

Easy180
04-19-2007, 01:34 PM
I agree with PUG...If the city leaders don't all but guarantee a new arena in the next few years it will be the KC Sonics and we will be watching only an occasional exhibition game....Just not gonna happen w/o some assurances

Also keep in mind...It will be difficult to get big time free agents to come to our fine city w/o paying them substantially more than larger cities....An awesome arena with world class facilities would go a long way in recruiting

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:37 PM
I agree with PUG...If the city leaders don't all but guarantee a new arena in the next few years it will be the KC Sonics and we will be watching only an occasional exhibition game....Just not gonna happen w/o some assurances

Also keep in mind...It will be difficult to get big time free agents to come to our fine city w/o paying them substantially more than larger cities....An awesome arena with world class facilities would go a long way in recruiting

But, shouldn't Kansas City have a plan to replace the Crystal Palace in 5 years too? I don't see the difference. You're trying to say that arenas only have a life of 5 years. What does that say about other arenas in the league, like Madison Square Garden?

PUGalicious
04-19-2007, 01:40 PM
So what are we going to do, spend $500 million every 5 years to build a new arena? I don't know any city that would do that. The city of Seattle is different....they have a 30 year old arena that needs replacing. When the Ford Center is 20-30 years old, it will need replacing as well. For now, we have a new arena.
Who said every 5 years? When we built the Ford Center, there were many who predicted that it would not be NBA suitable long term.

And, the reality is, we have to give reasons for players to be excited about coming to play in Oklahoma City. We have to be honest and say that compared to Seattle or Miami or Dallas or even Kansas City, Oklahoma City doesn't have a world-class reputation. If we build first class facilities, it will be one incentive for a player to get excited about playing here.

But, it's no skin off my nose. If we don't get the NBA team, we don't get it. But if we want it, there will have to be a new arena or a nearly complete overhaul of the Ford Center. That's the reality.

soonerliberal
04-19-2007, 01:42 PM
Spending $20 million in updates and upgrades to the Ford center would be able to easily hold us over for at least 10 more years. There is no reason for us to build a brand new arena when we currently have two conveniently located in the heart downtown, including one new one. The AA Center in Dallas cost 5 times as much as our beloved Ford Center, yet when I visit it, I do not notice where the extra $400 million went.

We have a good arena. Some updates, particularly beautification on the first level, and locker room updates, would be nice, but we don't need a new arena. Let's focus on the other things that need to be done before we waste another few hundred million.

okclee
04-19-2007, 01:44 PM
I am totally conviced that the Ford Center has about 5 good years left and that is with upgrades. There will be some sort of new arena agreement for Bennett to bring his Sonics to Okc.

There will also be a practice facility for the new team, this has already been stated by Mayor Mick. The city of Cleveland just finished their new downtown practice facility belonging to the Cavs for a cool 20 Million.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:45 PM
Spending $20 million in updates and upgrades to the Ford center would be able to easily hold us over for at least 10 more years. There is no reason for us to build a brand new arena when we currently have two conveniently located in the heart downtown, including one new one. The AA Center in Dallas cost 5 times as much as our beloved Ford Center, yet when I visit it, I do not notice where the extra $400 million went.

We have a good arena. Some updates, particularly beautification on the first level, and locker room updates, would be nice, but we don't need a new arena. Let's focus on the other things that need to be done before we waste another few hundred million.

I agree completely.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:46 PM
There will be some sort of new arena agreement for Bennett to bring his Sonics to Okc.

I highly doubt that. I think what you'll see is a complete overhaul of our NEW arena.


There will also be a practice facility for the new team, this has already been stated by Mayor Mick. The city of Cleveland just finished their new downtown practice facility belonging to the Cavs for a cool 20 Million.

Now that will happen.

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 01:49 PM
Heck, we could devote $50 million to updating it and that would be 1/10th the cost of a new one.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:51 PM
The inside of the Ford Center looks like an arena where they ran out of $$ when they were about 65% finished, I thought it looked like crap on the inside from the begining.

If we land a permanent franchise, we definately need a better arena

Let's spend the 100 million or whatever to finish the Ford Center before we discuss building a new arena. We have a habit in this town of not completing things. Let's complete something for once.

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 01:52 PM
But, shouldn't Kansas City have a plan to replace the Crystal Palace in 5 years too? I don't see the difference. You're trying to say that arenas only have a life of 5 years. What does that say about other arenas in the league, like Madison Square Garden?

I think the difference here is that our arena was built bare bones, so as is, it's shelf life is very short, but with $50 million in upgrades it should be fine for 10-12 years.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:53 PM
Heck, we could devote $50 million to updating it and that would be 1/10th the cost of a new one.

Yeah, and I just don't see our city putting up $500 mill for a new arena right now, when we already have a brand new arena. Maybe 50-100 mill for improvements to the existing arena to cover us for now.

The Core to Shore Project is going to cost too much, and that will be the focus of MAPS 3.

Maybe 10-15 years from now, after improvements have been maxed out at the Ford Center, we can discuss building a new world class arena.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 01:53 PM
I think the difference here is that our arena was built bare bones, so as is, it's shelf life is very short, but with $50 million in upgrades it should be fine for 10-12 years.

I agree with that.

Easy180
04-19-2007, 02:34 PM
Might be fine with you but I can assure you Bennett will not come here if we expect him to stay in the Ford Center for more than 5 years (With extensive upgrades)

Patrick
04-19-2007, 02:40 PM
Might be fine with you but I can assure you Bennett will not come here if we expect him to stay in the Ford Center for more than 5 years (With extensive upgrades)

You have no evidence to prove that.

soonerliberal
04-19-2007, 02:46 PM
Am I alone in thinking this?:

We can spend $500 million on a new arena and let the current two we have rot or we can invest $500 million in actually doing a second revival of the city. $500 million could be spent on relandscaping our city streets and freeways, rebuilding more schools, creating the foundation for a light rail system, committing even more money to the arts and Arts district, continuing to revive the Fairgrounds into a world class facility, making our existing city parks beautiful and safe, create a Hispanic "downtown", revive the Farmers market, continue the River's growth, and begin the city's Core to Shore projects.

All of that or a new arena?

Easy180
04-19-2007, 02:52 PM
Arena...We LACK quality entertainment and name recognition...Nicer parks and fairgrounds aren't gonna help us move up on the map except for retirement folks

Plus it won't be anywhere near $500 mil...Spent less than 100 on the Ford Center

soonerliberal
04-19-2007, 03:02 PM
In addition, one would have to be crazy to think that the taxpayers of Oklahoma City would approve a tax to pay for a new arena when we have one that is less than five years old.

John
04-19-2007, 03:02 PM
The Ford Center will become the 2nd use arena, and the Cox Center's arena bowl will be converted into convention space.

At the latest, construction needs to start in 4 to 5 years on our new arena. If we go all out and not build a bare bones arena, the new one can last for 20 or so years.

okclee
04-19-2007, 03:07 PM
In the world of NBA arenas we purchased a Kia, it is a top of the line Kia, but it is still a Kia. (nothing against Kia's by the way) Now you can paint this Kia, put a new stereo in your Kia, and "pimp your ride" all you want. The fact is that it is still a Kia.

Now the new arena will be a Bentley, with all of the bells and whistles. So say 20 years from now what do you want to be driving. Your Kia or your Bentley?

Easy180
04-19-2007, 03:08 PM
In the world of NBA arenas we purchased a Kia, it is a top of the line Kia, but it is still a Kia. (nothing against Kia's by the way) Now you can paint this Kia, put a new stereo in your Kia, and "pimp your ride" all you want. The fact is that it is still a Kia.

Now the new arena will be a Bentley, with all of the bells and whistles. So say 20 years from now what do you want to be driving. Your Kia or your Bentley?

:congrats: :congrats: :congrats:

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 03:11 PM
I really don't understand what's different between a Kia and a Bentley besides better asthetics, which surely don't cost 5 times as much.

PUGalicious
04-19-2007, 03:17 PM
I really don't understand what's different between a Kia and a Bentley besides better asthetics...
Are you serious??? :eek:

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 03:32 PM
a "kia" and a "bentley"

in other words, what is different about a $500 million dollar arena from the Ford Center besides all the glass and chrome? that can't be worth $400 million.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 03:38 PM
It's not even worth talking about, because city leaders have no plans to build a new arena. I talked to one leader this afternoon who laughed about the idea of building a new arena in 5 years, saying, we already have a new arena, that just needs improvements. I agree. The Ford Center has at least a 20 year lifespan, with appropriate improvements. Let's spend $100 million upgrading the Ford Center, and $400 million on Core to Shore.

Otherwise, we end up with a world class arena surrounded by the slums south of the current I-40.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 03:39 PM
And BTW, for $100 million, we can turn Ford Center into a pretty top notch arena, with all of the glass, bells and whistles, etc.

It's more like comparing a Toyota to a Lexus. They both have the same drive train. Just one has the fancy asthetics, and the other is plain. Let's make the upgrades on the Toyota, and turn it into a Lexus.

Pete
04-19-2007, 03:43 PM
Keep in mind that any NBA team would bare at least part of the cost of whatever arena they play in. No city is just going to give them one... At best, they get some tax incentives and sponsorships but they still have to come up with some money and pay rent.

There is an expense side to their ledger, not just revenue. If they could have a very nice arena by spending another $100 million in upgrades -- even if that was only for the next 5 to 10 years -- that would save the team a lot of money, too.

Everyone agrees the Ford Center is alread about mid-pack in terms of NBA arenas. Another $100 million (or less) would put it well up there and when things get to the point we can no longer keep up -- and we'll see that coming years ahead -- that's when we build a new arena.

In the mean time, we need to allow for it -- in our land usage planning -- for that day will surely come.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 03:43 PM
Something we could consider 10 years from now:

Ford Center for NHL
A new state of the art arena for NBA.

But, get the NBA team first, have them play in the Ford Center for a few years, then build them a new arena.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 03:47 PM
Keep in mind that any NBA team would bare at least part of the cost of whatever arena they play in. No city is just going to give them one... At best, they get some tax incentives and sponsorships but they still have to come up with some money and pay rent.

There is an expense side to their ledger, not just revenue. If they could have a very nice arena by spending another $100 million in upgrades -- even if that was only for the next 5 to 10 years -- that would save the team a lot of money, too.

Everyone agrees the Ford Center is alread about mid-pack in terms of NBA arenas. Another $100 million (or less) would put it well up there and when things get to the point we can no longer keep up -- and we'll see that coming years ahead -- that's when we build a new arena.

In the mean time, we need to allow for it

That sounds more like the plans city leaders have right now. With improvements made to the Ford Center, they're estimating about a 20 year life for the arena. You have to remember....the Ford Center is very basic. With $100 million in improvements, it could be made into one of the nice arenas in the league. It will never be an American Airlines Center, but in my opinion, the American Airlines Center was way overpriced.

To be honest with you, I understand where the citizens of Seattle are coming from. They could have a really nice arena for $200-300 million. I think Bennett set the bar high on purpose......because he knew the citizens wouldn't be stupid enough to approve it. And if they did, he'd make out like a bandit.

BG918
04-19-2007, 03:47 PM
Wait to build the new arena, the Ford Center is fine for now. Lay the groundwork though for the new arena by building a new convention center south of the blvd. (as outlined in Core to Shore) thus freeing up the Cox to be demolished and replaced by a new arena in the FUTURE, build a light rail starter line connecting the soon-to-be booming area of downtown by the Ford Center and new blvd. with Bricktown, midtown, and the OUHSC, and fund the construction of a new cultural attraction somewhere in downtown.

MAPS III needs to be a balance of attracting visitors with the convention center, OKC residents with the LRT starter line through downtown to major areas of employment and future urban residential, and both with a world-class cultural attraction downtown. What that cultural attraction will be would have to be determined, whether it be a contemporary arts museum, science center, or my choice: national severe weather museum.

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 03:47 PM
Good points, Malibu. Considering Bennett was supposedly putting up 200 of the $500 million in Seattle, maybe he should pay for the improvements.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 03:52 PM
Good points BG. The Cox Center location could be used for a new arena 10-15 years from now, after a new convention center is built south of I-40. The NBA team could get that arena, and maybe we could use the Ford Center to attract an NHL team.

At this point, I'm just not sure a 50K seat dome or stadium would be worth it in OKC, unless we're going for an NFL team. San Antonio has one in the Alamo Dome, and they proved that a larger dome just wasn't conducive for NBA. That's why they now have the ATT Center for the Spurs.

jbrown84
04-19-2007, 03:54 PM
Plus if it's an arena floor big enough for a football field, then it's way too big for NBA. Just wouldn't work.

Patrick
04-19-2007, 03:56 PM
Didn't work for the Spurs. Went to a Spurs game in the Alamo Dome, and it was too large and spread out.

okclee
04-19-2007, 04:02 PM
And BTW, for $100 million, we can turn Ford Center into a pretty top notch arena, with all of the glass, bells and whistles, etc.

It's more like comparing a Toyota to a Lexus. They both have the same drive train. Just one has the fancy asthetics, and the other is plain. Let's make the upgrades on the Toyota, and turn it into a Lexus.


Before................................

http://www.weber.edu/wsuimages/automotive/2000%20Toyota%20Corolla%20small.jpg


After..................................

http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/lexusconcept1%20(Small).jpg

Patrick
04-19-2007, 04:06 PM
This is the facility where the Miami Heat play...was built in 1999. The Ford Center is surely nicer then it.

http://basketball.ballparks.com/NBA/MiamiHeat/newaerial.jpg

Patrick
04-19-2007, 04:07 PM
Or what about where the Spurs play:
http://basketball.ballparks.com/NBA/SanAntonioSpurs/newfront.jpg