I was wondering what people's thoughts were on if Bricktown can support 3 coffee shops. We already have Uncommon Grounds next door to CityWalk. Then just around the corner at 222 E. Main another coffee shop plans on opening up Winter 07', I don't know if that means in the next month or so (presumably) or next December? Also as we know, Starbucks will be locating in the Centennial.:fighting4

Regardless of whether or not Bricktown can successfully support 3, 4, or 5 coffee shops - give someone some money and they will often fall for "if you build it in Bricktown they will come."

Personally, I think I coffe shop would make it if it was situated near much needed retail. Of course a really successful coffee shop would be the financial death to others in the area.

Not because it's a Starbucks, but because of location, I think the Starbucks will be the most successful. It has much more foot traffic (by the canal and theater) than the other two, plus it will have residences sitting on top of it.

Not so much because of the Starbucks brand (I prefer the Panera house latte) but multiple coffee shops can thrive. In Seattle there are actually shops thriving across the street from each other because folks don't like long lines (sometimes as many a 3 people). All is takes is a quality product and fair price.

The problem is that week nights are often very slow and rent is still quite high. I don't think a Seattle, NYC etc. model applies to Bricktown.

Now that may all change in a couple of years when/if there is a stable base of residential traffic in the area.

I think they will be fine. The most at risk is the one opening on Main, away from most of the action, but it could potentially draw a lot from Deep Deuce residents.

Now that may all change in a couple of years when/if there is a stable base of residential traffic in the area.

I agree. It's all about density and the areas population should only grow in the next few years and this year's growth will be very big, percentage wise.

The starbucks should do well as it piggy backs off the theater crowd. I think the others can do well, but they will have to generate more of their own traffic and be destination coffee houses.

Uncommon Grounds I'm sure has a regular customer base, or it would not have survived this long north of Sheridan. The new one seems more at risk. It will really depend on if it's good enough to draw Deep Deucers and eventually Maywood Parkers, etc.

I don't know how Uncommon Grounds manages to hang in there. It seems like every time I go there I'm the only one there. It's cool that they are managing though.

Not so much because of the Starbucks brand (I prefer the Panera house latte) but multiple coffee shops can thrive. In Seattle there are actually shops thriving across the street from each other because folks don't like long lines (sometimes as many a 3 people). All is takes is a quality product and fair price.

Yes I know, but as others have said the Seattle model doesn't really apply. Seattle is much more urban #1, and #2 it is the coffee mecca of the US with the majority of people coffee drinkers with refined palettes and often do coffee tastings. There is one building in Seattle with 3 Starbucks in it and another one across the street. We're not Seattle nor close to their mindset on coffee!!

hm, where is this?

I only know of two starbucks across the street in downtown Vancouver, and more than just one intersection. Downtown Van is MUCH more urban than Seattle and has 10 times the people; so I could see (and do see) the plethora of coffee (among everything else) there, but not like that in Seattle to my knowledge.

The "Seattle model" might not apply to most of OKC, but I think it does apply in downtown OKC; where it's just as urban tho a bit smaller than it is in Seattle. Downtown Sea area might have 20K residents but none of them live in the CBD - which I guess is what METRO is referring to the three starbucks is.??

Cities MUCH larger than Seattle dont have the Seattle model for coffee so it really isnt such a big deal. In fact, I never go there anyways but am curious as to where in Seattle there are three within a block's vacinity.

Im not saying it isn't possible but coming from someone who lives here - it just amazes me how these stories/fabrications about how progressive Seattle is just gets blown out of proportion. We are progressive, but not THAT forward.

well HOT ROD, we usually always agree on everything. I've been to Seattle before as well. Regardless of how "stretched" things are, the reality is downtown seattle is far more urban than OKC and has many more residents. Right now downtown OKC probably only has a few hundred with virtually none living in Bricktown nor the CBD. Yes, by the end of this year there will be thousands hopefully. As someone said, Deep Deuce is really the only residents nearby as of now. Don't kid yourself though, Seattle is far more a coffee mecca than OKC. I forget the buildings name but I even saw it on CNN and FOX News the other day the building with 3 Starbucks. I'll see if I can find an article. Columbia Tower/Centre has 2 in it with Key Tower across the street having another one in it. Then in a 7 square block area between 5th and Second and Spring and the street before Pike there is another 8 Starbucks.

In the meantime, I went to Starbucks.com and found that 99 Starbucks are in Seattle , only 30 are in the OKC metro. There are over 40 Starbucks in the downtown/Midtown areas of Seattle alone. Keep in mind this does not even include other coffee shops. We're talking about a measly 4 or so of any coffee shops in all of downtown OKC!!

Here's two across the street from each other (http://www.gergltd.com/users/isaac.gerg/starbucks/images/panorama.jpg)

Are there not two Starbucks in the same parking lot in MWC? One in the Super Target and free standing in the parking lot of the same strip mall.

I just wish someone would open a Java Hut here .. we had them in CA and it was heaven.. drive up, order a White Mocha (or whatever) and off I went .. ahhhhhh - beautiful.

Personally I like Seattle's Best. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Karrie, do you mean Java City?

No, it was Java Hut .. it was a stand alone little 'shack' - it was awesome.. specialty coffees, iced granadas, just drive up, order, pay and get your coffee, never had to get out to go in Starbucks or similar coffee shops ....

Don't get me wrong, I like to do coffee shops as well, just not on the way to work!

No, it was Java Hut .. it was a stand alone little 'shack' - it was awesome.. specialty coffees, iced granadas, just drive up, order, pay and get your coffee, never had to get out to go in Starbucks or similar coffee shops ....

Don't get me wrong, I like to do coffee shops as well, just not on the way to work!

I always thought Java The Hut would be a clever name for a coffee shop. Several years ago a friend told me he had seen a shop in the city with that name because he knew that'd been my idea(it's since gone out of business). He said I should have done it before someone stole my idea, only problem was a lack of capital and resources, so someone got to it before me.

Bailjumper, along those lines, then that applies to several places in the metro. At NW Expressway and Rockwell there is one inside the Target, then across the street there is a stand alone with a drive thru, then a mile down the road at MacArthur, there is another stand alone w/ drive through, then 2 miles down there is a stand alone with drive thru and one in the Target on May just a few blocks down the road again, then, there is one another mile down the road in Penn Square Mall. The ones I was talking about in Seattle's Columbia Centre are in the SAME BUILDING, and again one across the street, plus other coffee shops at the same intersection that aren't a Starbucks. My point was clearly that one intersection in downtown Seattle alone has more coffee shops (perhaps even just Starbucks) than all coffee shops in the downtown OKC area.

I guess if you can have a gas station on each of four corners and they make it, why not coffee shops.

Well coffee is a little bit more of a niche, but I agree with you to some extent. People like Starbucks. I think you could have a Starbucks on ever corner and they would all do fine. The question really comes down to whether this new place is any good.

Anyone read the March 2007 Consumer Reports? They compared the basic black coffees of Starbucks to McDonald's, Burger King and Dunkin' Donuts.

And the winner for both best taste and lowest price - McDonald's

Personally, I'd rather lick an ashtray then drink coffee black.

Coffeehouses are such local operations. Each can have its own small customer base. But as said earlier, the x factor is the attractiveness of the 222 E Main shop: if it proves to be a nice place to spend a few hours, I think you will have traffic from The Hill and Deep Deuce and then some. Uncommon Grounds and certainly Stabucks will hold their own IMO no matter how successful this new place is. That said, I hope it is nice. I heard it opens next week.

metro, I never said that OKC was more urban than downtown Seattle, what I said was there are other cities more urban than downtown Seattle - and that Vancouver BC actually has the most coffee houses, with numerous across the street - including the two world famous ones on Robson (which is Vancouver's Rodeo Drive, rent at $300+ per sq ft).

Downtown Vancouver is MUCH MORE URBAN than downtown Seattle and has more of everything, but the fact that it has so many coffee houses does not negatively impact the urban experience.

That was my point, that even though a city might have many of the same or a lot of competition (like Vancouver) - it's still a fun urban place and that is what OKC should strive to be. Bricktown CAN support 3 coffeehouses or more!!!

Also, Im not trying to be a Van booster so to say, just stating the obvious if you ever get the chance next visit to Seattle - go to Vancouver (2 hrs to the north) if you really want to experience a true urban experience!! That's what we Seattleites do.

HOT ROD, I totally understand your point and did from square one. We agree 99% of the time. My point was that you made (intended or not) Seattle to seem not so urban and as OKC as close in comparison. I actually have been to Seattle and find it FAR more urban than OKC. Yes, I'd love OKC to be that urban and hope that we strive to be as urban as possible, but the reality is that Seattle is still far more urban now than OKC will be years from now.

I'll requote something I said earlier to make my point, of regardless how much more urban Vancouver,BC is than Seattle (irrelevant comparing OKC to Seattle).


There are over 40 Starbucks in the downtown/Midtown areas of Seattle alone. Keep in mind this does not even include other coffee shops in the downtown/Midtown Seattle area. We're talking about a measly 4 or so of any coffee shops in all of downtown OKC!! That's more than a 4:1 ratio in Seattle's favor (just Starbucks alone), thus proving my point that Seattle is far more a coffee culture than OKC.

When I visited my sister in Seattle last October, I thought it was funny to see three coffee shops in a row. There are a ridiculous number of coffee shops in Seattle. I think that Bricktown can support three, especially when all of the downtown housing gets online.

When I visited my sister in Seattle last October, I thought it was funny to see three coffee shops in a row. There are a ridiculous number of coffee shops in Seattle. I think that Bricktown can support three, especially when all of the downtown housing gets online.

If Bricktown can't support three coffee shops I'll bet one or more of them will close.

It's great that we're able to get good coffee in Oklahoma City. I'm a coffee nut and really like properly brewed coffee. Even the good restaurants haven't been able to do it right. The Java Joint used to have good coffee but since they've changed owners, quite a while back, they've gone to using a little coffee and a lot of water. It's so bitter.

I've never been to Seattle. From what I've heard the weather is marvelous. Lots of gray cloudy days and rain. I'd love it.

Hey! Do any of these coffee shops provide free wireless? Starbuck's drives me crazy for not having it.

Prunepicker

I've never been to Seattle. From what I've heard the weather is marvelous. Lots of gray cloudy days and rain. I'd love it.


You hit the nail right on the head.. I've been meaning to mention this forever... of course a hot cup of coffee would be welcome on a rainy drizzly day.. .. but in OK where we have a majority of sunny days, many people gravitate towards cold drinks instead of coffee... so to me, it's perfectly logical to have tons of coffee shops in Seattle.

We have nice days (dry) here - but they are mostly in the Summer.

Metro - Starbucks was born here, so it would not be too difficult to imagine that Seattle would have an unusually high number of them, would it??? :)

That being said, I still dont agree that Seattle is the centre for coffee culture. Sure, Howard Schultz had a great idea of importing a brasillian blend of coffee, dark roasting it, and selling the "premium" coffee as a gourmet item of "italian cups of joe" which got lots of people "hooked" on dark roast [pressed] specialty coffee - but I would give the coffee culture award to cities in the NE, Chicago, and Italy of course.

Seattle is Starbucks culture - absolutely! But honestly, Portland OR (a peer city of OKC by the way) has a MUCH better coffee culture than does Seattle. They have WAY MORE independent coffee houses than we do as well as the corporate locales like Starbucks, Tully's (another Seattle coffee co), and S.B.C.

It is so interesting how Seattle has gained this image - Im not saying the city isn't great or anything, but as someone who lives here and has traveled EXTENSIVELY - Seattle is just another mid-sized US city that is often pretentious at best. Like I said, there are smaller cities who have better culture yet Seattle takes the credit.

Sure we have a lot of Starbucks here, we started it; just like OKC has a lot of Sonic. Now, I would not call OKC the "culture of fast food" but I would say it is Sonic's home and key market; same for Starbucks at Seattle.

It is the corporate home of Microsoft and Starbucks - so that is what America knows and associates anything high-tech or coffee related, to us. However, Seattle just made it "accessible" and "high fashion". That's all.

Is OKC's coffee culture better than Seattle's, I never said it was, in fact. But I do believe that OKC can support 3 coffee shops/houses in Bricktown - just like anywhere else in the world.

Oh, and those 3-neighbouring Starbucks in downtown Seattle - I bet they were empty or only a few customers, UNLESS it was lunch time or morning/afternoon rush hour.

That's not what I'd call coffee culture. :)

Which Bricktown coffee shop do you believe the be the better of the three?

Prunepicker

Even though I haven't been. I've been noticing Brew Ha Ha's marketing strategy and it is by far the best I've seen from a coffee shop locally. They have something going on just about every night ranging from Xbox tournaments, Big Screen sports, free internet, acoustic bands, st. patty's day irish stuff, house music, Lifechurch singles groups, and many other things going on almost every night. I've seen a lot of advertisements out there for them as well, Gazette, etc. I never see Uncommon Grounds advertising or having special events. I'd hate to see them go considering they were Bricktown pioneers but if they don't start doing something they might not have a choice. Starbucks will also do well and draw tourists and its local yuppie suburbanite crowd in Bricktown for the weekend.

Where's Brew Ha Ha's?

Prunepicker

On Main. St across from the new police Substation. It's the 2 story white building.

thus proving my point that Seattle is far more a coffee culture than OKC.


True, but I’d be willing to guess that what there is of OKC’s coffee culture (that is, people who combined the act of drinking coffee with socializing) will be attracted to downtown. Hopefully, that will pan out and we’ll have three good choices for coffee in bricktown.


Brew Ha Ha's marketing strategy… is by far the best I've seen from a coffee shop locally. They have something going on just about every night ranging from Xbox tournaments, Big Screen sports, free internet, acoustic bands, st. patty's day irish stuff, house music, Lifechurch singles groups, and many other things going on almost every night.

I think that makes sense. Bricktown places have to establish themselves as a destination. These places will have to cater to the culture of coffee and not just be coffee retailers that cater primarily to Karried on the way to work. We have convenience stores ad naseum to fill that market.

I still think Starbucks will have an easy go at it. It’s brand, rightfully so or not, is well established and I can see CBDers actually making the trek during breaks to get it. Combine that with the movie crowd and I think it will do very well. Brew Ha-Ha and Uncommon Grounds will have to do things like those listed above to create their own brand and identity.

I think it’s doable, but I wouldn’t bet on it until we see what kind of impact the new residential areas make on pedestrian traffic.


Now, I would not call OKC the "culture of fast food"

Maybe not the culture of fast food, but it’s pretty much a fast food culture.

Bailjumper, along those lines, then that applies to several places in the metro. At NW Expressway and Rockwell there is one inside the Target, then across the street there is a stand alone with a drive thru, then a mile down the road at MacArthur, there is another stand alone w/ drive through, then 2 miles down there is a stand alone with drive thru and one in the Target on May just a few blocks down the road again, then, there is one another mile down the road in Penn Square Mall. The ones I was talking about in Seattle's Columbia Centre are in the SAME BUILDING, and again one across the street, plus other coffee shops at the same intersection that aren't a Starbucks. My point was clearly that one intersection in downtown Seattle alone has more coffee shops (perhaps even just Starbucks) than all coffee shops in the downtown OKC area.

METRO, I think we can agree to disagree somewhat. But no matter what your conclusion is, Starbucks was founded in Seattle and that is the ONLY reason why there is an abnormally high number of coffee houses here. In fact, gourmet coffee to the massess as a concept was also heralded here in Seattle. This explains why Seattle's Best Coffee was the first then Starbucks and now Tully's. All three have a significant presence in Seattle, not much else in downtown Seattle.

So, rather than saying Seattle is the coffee culture or anything like that (like I said, those places downtown are empty except during rush) - we can agree that Seattle started the affordable gourmet coffee to the masses craze and because of that we have a large presence here.

Can we also agree that Bricktown can support 3+ coffee shops? I mean, OKC isnt that small and Seattle isnt that special. Good grief (so to say).

:)

One thing we haven't mentioned yet is that coffee has great margins. That should help.

One thing we haven't mentioned yet is that coffee has great margins. That should help.

That's true but GOOD coffee requires about 3 times the coffee per cup than what we get at the diners. The beans cost more, too.

Prunepicker

I'm not a coffee drinker but it seems to me that they just charge 3 times as much for "good" coffee. So, they maintain the margin and get a higher gross.

If Bricktown can't support three coffee shops I'll bet one or more of them will close.


That's a pretty good assumption.

I'm not a coffee drinker but it seems to me that they just charge 3 times as much for "good" coffee. So, they maintain the margin and get a higher gross.

Starbuck's charges about $1.75 for a cup but you can pay more for specialty items. It looks like the going rate else where is about $1.00. I wish coffee houses would serve the coffee in ceramic mugs.

Starbuck's has a tendency to over roast their beans. It's like everything is Italian roast. I get Cafe Americano when I visit them.

Coffee Dan's, 1530 W. Main, is the best roaster in town. I buy almost all of my coffee from them. They're locally owned, too. It's also called the West End Roasters.

Prunepicker

Hello,

My Name is Pip Hutton, and i am one of the owners of BrewHaHa (the other is Capt. Michael Brewster who is active duty in the Air Force and currently deployed to Germany).

I just want to say thank you all for your kind words and tell you a little bit about our coffee.

We are currently using a coffee bean that is new to the market called Darcello's.

In El Salvador there is a large coffee field which has been in one family for 300 years. This coffee has never left the country. Last year, they were able to get a 10 year trade agreement with the US. Once they obtained this, a large (the biggest) retail chain offered them over 50 Million dollars for this field; they refused. Their coffee is incredibly smooth and low in acidity.

Let me tell you, this makes for some "fine" espresso and Latte beverages.

Our house coffee I chose personally. I eat out just about everyday and only twice have I ever enjoyed a restaurants commercial coffee (without being in a coffee specialty cafe), once in Tulsa, and the other in Mountain Home, AR. I was surprised to find out both were the same brand; Dowe Egberts.

I would love for everyone to come by try a Darcello's Americano or Latte, or our house coffee.


We also want to be everyone's source for Caffeine. We have caffeinated water (no calories, no sugar, etc) to twice the caffeine coffee called "JavAlert".

Please let me know what you all think.

i dranked coffee at java hut in encinitas, ca - it was good.

I never understood everyones facination with Coffee. :)

Same here...I love the smell of it, for awhile, but I just never liked the taste.

Though I do like coffee ice cream haha.

METRO, I think we can agree to disagree somewhat. But no matter what your conclusion is, Starbucks was founded in Seattle and that is the ONLY reason why there is an abnormally high number of coffee houses here. In fact, gourmet coffee to the massess as a concept was also heralded here in Seattle. This explains why Seattle's Best Coffee was the first then Starbucks and now Tully's. All three have a significant presence in Seattle, not much else in downtown Seattle.

So, rather than saying Seattle is the coffee culture or anything like that (like I said, those places downtown are empty except during rush) - we can agree that Seattle started the affordable gourmet coffee to the masses craze and because of that we have a large presence here.

Can we also agree that Bricktown can support 3+ coffee shops? I mean, OKC isnt that small and Seattle isnt that special. Good grief (so to say).

:)

I sure hope Bricktown can support 3 coffee houses. The problem with these independent coffee places is lack of profit dollars. They need to pour coffee all day long for an operator(s) to make a decent living compared to the hours they are putting in. This is why you see Starbucks and others with multiple locations; sometimes right on top of each other. The concept is proven and every store will net a decent number, not a huge one. If a franchisee has 10 stores, it is worth the hard work.

One other thing, The Starbucks hospitality training program seems to be one of the best in all of foodservice. This would allow owners/partners of independents to manage multiple locations if necessary.

I say good luck to all...what a tough segment.

I sure hope Bricktown can support 3 coffee houses. The problem with these independent coffee places is lack of profit dollars. They need to pour coffee all day long for an operator(s) to make a decent living compared to the hours they are putting in. This is why you see Starbucks and others with multiple locations; sometimes right on top of each other. The concept is proven and every store will net a decent number, not a huge one. If a franchisee has 10 stores, it is worth the hard work.

Does that make up for all the extra overhead and extra employees needed?

Same here...I love the smell of it, for awhile, but I just never liked the taste.

Though I do like coffee ice cream haha.


I'm with you bandnerd. I love the smell of it but it tastes like bitter water to me. Now sweeten it up with some chocolate and whipped cream and I'll drink it. I prefer the coffee/cappucino ice cream or gelato though.

coffee is good, i don't think i know anyone fascinated with it but lots of people like to drink it, just like lots of people like to drink beer but many others think it tastes gross.

a friend of mine licked a dirty ashtray once and he told me that black coffee tastes much better - - just thought I'd pass that on as well.

I personally don't like anything coffee but my son and husband do. I do like the atmosphere of a coffee shop as just a place to sit and relax and have a nice cup of herbal tea. The family and I go to some coffee shop about once a week just to hang out and have a nice conversation.

I sure hope Bricktown can support 3 coffee houses. The problem with these independent coffee places is lack of profit dollars. They need to pour coffee all day long for an operator(s) to make a decent living compared to the hours they are putting in. This is why you see Starbucks and others with multiple locations; sometimes right on top of each other. The concept is proven and every store will net a decent number, not a huge one. If a franchisee has 10 stores, it is worth the hard work.

One other thing, The Starbucks hospitality training program seems to be one of the best in all of foodservice. This would allow owners/partners of independents to manage multiple locations if necessary.

I say good luck to all...what a tough segment.

Actually, the Starbucks in OKC do pretty well; even as a single store. The Sbux on 15th and Broadway Grosses over a million annually. The sbux on 63rd and western is one of the most profitable stores in all of Oklahoma, grossing well over a million consistently.

Not surprising as those are in Edmond and Nichols Hills.

Not surprising as those are in Edmond and Nichols Hills.

Are you talking about coffee shops in Edmond and Nichols Hills? If so, which ones?

Prunepicker

I'm referring to the 2 Starbucks mentioned in the post before mine.

Personally I like Seattle's Best. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Seattle's Best was bought out several years ago, and is now a subsidiary of...ahhh...Starbucks.