Hey guys. I'm not a food or entertainment critic, but I've been visiting Bricktown for the better part of 15 years now and have traveled some, and thought I'd toss my two cents into the coffee cup here. :)

The biggest problem with the restaurants in Bricktown: well, there are a few. I can't believe the number of times I've been to Bricktown on a dead night and had to wait, seriously, 20 minutes to get a table because the wait staff are nowhere to be found, and then have an equally long wait to order and get some food. Another big problem is that some of the restaurants' food is just not very good. I hate to single anyone out, but the last time I went to whatever Varsity Sports Grill is now calling itself I had an exceptionally bad experience. I thought that any of the items we ordered I could have easily created in my kitchen at home and it would have tasted about 10x better. I think another big problem with Bricktown restaurants is something that isn't within their control -- I think there are too many humongous open warehouse-sized locations. It is hard for any restaurant to generate the kind of revenue that would be required to support that much overhead. The building owners should consider finding ways to partition some of their buildings into numerous smaller locations. I think this would help add stability to the food scene. Also I think it is a problem that the only things that seem to be able to survive down there are Mexican, steak, Italian, and Hooters. There is just no diversity in the Bricktown menu. I think this has a lot to do with what Bricktown has become and who it is marketing to, discussed further below.

Another problem I see is the "flakiness" of Bricktown. Case in point: I went down there one night with some friends on a weeknight to have dinner and some fun and found that probably half of the establishments (or more) simply weren't open. I guess they were having a slow night and decided to bail early. I understand a business owner wanting to save costs on a slow night, but it is really hard to have any kind of consistency when this is the norm. Honestly I just don't go to Bricktown anymore unless it is a Friday or Saturday night because I don't want to drive 20 minutes, drive around finding a parking spot, pay $5-8, and then walk for 5 minutes only to find the place I'm heading to is closed up for the night.

The DJ'd music is pretty good in Bricktown, with selections including Skky Bar, CityWalk, LIT, and Venue. It's a shame that *live* music can't seem to survive though, other than country. I really liked Bricktown Live when it was around because it was a real music venue but had kind of a bar-like feel to it. Hopefully someone will be able to pick up the slack.

The biggest problem with the development in general: at least early on I heard a lot about trying to make Bricktown into this new hip place, but then we decided to do that by immediately putting a bunch of old and extremely conservative people in charge of development. Later on the focus seemed to shift to creating a touristy family-friendly atmosphere. And today... I just don't know what Bricktown really is. To me, I think Bricktown is morphing into a Dallas West End. I think development needs to consider this appropriately. For example, folks who live in Dallas don't necessarily visit the West End because it is for tourists. If you want a good restaurant you go to another part of town, maybe Addison or Plano, or in old downtown along Lemon. If you want a hip club maybe you go to Deep Ellum, Lower Greenville Ave., or someplace else near SMU. This is really what is happening with Bricktown. If you want good food, you hit NW OKC, if you want something touristy you head to Bricktown. If you want upscale shopping, you go to NW OKC, if you want something more middle-of-the-road and touristy, you go to Bricktown. That's where we are at now. Along-side that you have Lower Bricktown, which seems to be creating a typical suburban atmosphere that attracts high school students. I actually don't like these concepts and think it can be and should be changed (explained next). I have to wonder if the 'Bricktown Master Plan' or whatever it is called makes any conscious choices as far as who it is targeting and the type of atmosphere being created down there.

The crowds have changed a lot in 15 years. I'll be real blunt... Bass Pro, Toby Keith's, Wormy Dog, etc. increase the 'bubba factor.' Lower Bricktown increases the HS wanna-be-gangsta quotient. Why would a guy like me, who goes into a bar and orders a $30 glass of Johnny Walker Blue Label, want to have to deal with this? Lots of people feel the way I do.... I think Bricktown is actually driving a certain demographic away that could have easily supported it all by itself (e.g. the "young professionals" or the "creative class" the city seems so hell-bent on trying to attract).

Okay, so if we assume that we're stuck now and it is what it is, why aren't we going all in and marketing to the families and kids and the bubbas? Why are there no attractions like miniature golf, or laser tag, or an arcade, or western wear, etc.? To me it seems like the folks in Bricktown just don't know what to do with Bricktown. The city may have plans, but I think the business community there needs to get together and make some plans of its own.

If it were possible to 'reboot' Bricktown and start over, I'd like to see lots of retail there. I'd like to see restaurants with big, inviting entrances at the canal level that draw people in. Not a bunch of windows with some non-existent door buried deep within a cave inside a building. I'd like to see restaurants and retail co-located on the same spot, not spread out in different locations. I'd like to see some entertainment: a GameWorks, some *good* music venues, maybe even some culture and art! Ever been to downtown Chicago? You can hit coffee shops, fantastic Italian or Chinese restaurants, a modern art museum, cathedrals, historical markers, great jazz and blues clubs, etc. all within walking distance. I'd like to see a more upscale Bricktown instead of the cheap-feeling nightmare part of it has turned out to be. I'd like to see a large, well thought-out cheap or totally free (city-provided) parking garage there.

Well, I guess this turned into a bit of a rant. :) Please don't take this as a big negative, the truth is I really care about our city and want the best for Bricktown and just feel myself shaking my head these days at the things that go on down there. I think Bricktown still has a lot of potential and I really hope that folks can change the direction of things there because I don't like what I think is to come.

Hey guys. I'm not a food or entertainment critic, but I've been visiting Bricktown for the better part of 15 years now and have traveled some, and thought I'd toss my two cents into the coffee cup here.

Greetings and welcome to the discussion! I agree with a lot of what you wrote. There's no question there are problems. I'm ecstatic with much of what has happened as I am in my forties and remember all of downtown dead as a door nail. However, there has been a sense that I am agreeing with more and more that Bricktown is not living up to its potential as an urban environment.

I drive around the city center and see lots of residential development, most of it very expensive, and wonder about the chicken and egg argument. Will the housing bring retail? Will people shy away for lack of retail? Hell, let's be honest - there isn't even a grocery store within walking distance of most of this development! Chicken or the egg? It will be interesting.

I had to pause when you wrote of Chicago. I agree that Chicago is a dynamic and exciting urban city with much to offer - but it has been for a hundred years. Let's face it: Oklahoma City is a wide-open southwestern city with a car culture that will never allow us to be a Chicago. It just is not going to happen. Comparing apples and oranges there. But, I understand your desire for even a microscopic "feel" of the Chicago urban life, maybe something like that can happen. But if you want that kind of full-on urban lifestyle, save yourself a lot of regrets and actually relocate. I hate to suggest that to people, but if I wanted sunshine all the time, I'd move to San Diego. If I wanted a winter wonderland, I'd move to Minneapolis. If I wanted hundreds of museums, I'd move to NYC. If I wanted.......on and on. But I understand your craving. But, if you stay here, you'll have to settle for a taste - not a full serving of urban life. That's not negativity, that's realism and some will never be satisfied with only a taste of urban life.

Again, welcome to OKCTalk and I hope you stay and participate!

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Great points, dismayed. I think your observations are correct. The biggets problem with Bricktown is that it has failed to generate anything original even for this market. Writeranger contends that you have to leave Oklahoma City to get something urban. Well, then Bricktown is not needed at all, becasue we have suburban covered ad naseum and Bricktown continues to miss on attraction developments and services that can consitently draw people out of those suburbs.


But if you want that kind of full-on urban lifestyle, save yourself a lot of regrets and actually relocate. I hate to suggest that to people, but if I wanted sunshine all the time, I'd move to San Diego. If I wanted a winter wonderland, I'd move to Minneapolis. If I wanted hundreds of museums, I'd move to NYC. If I wanted.......on and on.

Ok, but fill in the blank. Move to Oklahoma City if you want _________.

Great points, dismayed. I think your observations are correct. The biggets problem with Bricktown is that it has failed to generate anything original even for this market. Writeranger contends that you have to leave Oklahoma City to get something urban. Well, then Bricktown is not needed at all, becasue we have suburban covered ad naseum and Bricktown continues to miss on attraction developments and services that can consitently draw people out of those suburbs.
Ok, but fill in the blank. Move to Oklahoma City if you want _________.

Wait.....Time Out......No, no no. I was afraid some would read it like that. What I said was Oklahoma City would never be a CHICAGO. I even said that we will build to where you get a "taste" of the urban lifestyle. If someone wants a full-on urban lifestyle, why stay here? There's nothing wrong with moving to an area that has what you want! I would - in fact, I have! I moved in my twenties to a couple of huge urban centers and enjoyed it very much. It would have been silly of me to expect that from Oklahoma City then. It would be silly to expect it from Oklahoma City now. Why stay here and think Oklahoma City will one day be a Chicago, when you can go have Chicago NOW? Again....real slow....I'm all for an urban lifestyle. But streets and streets of bustling retail, skyscrapers, brownstones, and all that comes with an older city with a huge urban core of 3 million people? It won't be Oklahoma City. But a "taste" - you'll have it if we keep working. My disclaimer of moving, if you want to call it a disclaimer, is only meant for those who want a REAL urban lifestyle while they are young and can enjoy everything it has to offer. If that's what I wanted - why would I pick Oklahoma City? Anybody saying, "Writeranger contends that you have to leave Oklahoma City to get something urban." is misreading my posts. I think Writerranger contends that you have to leave Oklahoma City to get a Chicago-like, full-blown urban lifestyle. Big difference.

hey....I'm outa here for Christmas. Happy Holidays to you BDP and everyone here on the forum.

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Well, I'm not necessarily saying we should wait and try to re-create Chicago here.... Perhaps a better example, a bit closer to home, would be Austin, TX. Austin is a capital city, a western city, where the car is king. Yet every time I have been there, I have been amazed at the huge amounts of bars, restaurants, retail including things like records stores, souvernier stores, music venues, etc. you can find while walking along 4th, 6th, and 8th streets. Even though you are in a western city, the place has a very urban vibe. When you walk along these streets, I am always amazed at how beautiful and upscale the facades/storefronts on many of these places are. For example, ever been to Malaga tapas or Ruth Chris Steakhouse? Very nice, very upscale, very expensive. And very *not* Bricktown. Why is that? Is it simply the cultural differences between the two cities that are setting them so wildly apart? Both are cities of just over 1 million people, both are here in the southwest. Why can't we do something more like that?

Well, I'm not necessarily saying we should wait and try to re-create Chicago here.... Perhaps a better example, a bit closer to home, would be Austin, TX. Austin is a capital city, a western city, where the car is king. Yet every time I have been there, I have been amazed at the huge amounts of bars, restaurants, retail including things like records stores, souvernier stores, music venues, etc. you can find while walking along 4th, 6th, and 8th streets. Even though you are in a western city, the place has a very urban vibe. When you walk along these streets, I am always amazed at how beautiful and upscale the facades/storefronts on many of these places are. For example, ever been to Malaga tapas or Ruth Chris Steakhouse? Very nice, very upscale, very expensive. And very *not* Bricktown. Why is that? Is it simply the cultural differences between the two cities that are setting them so wildly apart? Both are cities of just over 1 million people, both are here in the southwest. Why can't we do something more like that?

One last post between wrapping Christmas presents.............

I agree dismayed --100%. You see, Austin is a good example of a "taste" of the urban lifestyle I was talking about. I mean, nobody would compare Austin to Chicago, so you really said what I was trying to say. I think, in time, we can build something similar to the urban vibe of Austin.

Happy holidays! And really, stick around here and participate. It's a fun place and a good place to brainstorm.

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Exactly. Austin is like that downtown, but you go out to the burbs and it's no different from Edmond. There's no reason why we can't be like Austin in Downtown and Midtown and Riverside. It just takes the right leadership.

I don't feel like Bricktown was ever on track to be anymore than a tourist-centric place. The canal, the ballpark, the kinds of restaurants there, all work towards that, and I agree we need to decide for sure what Bricktown is and focus on that completely. I've always said Bricktown needs mini-golf. Fortunately, I really think Automobile Alley, the Arts Quarter, and Midtown are all shaping up to be more along the lines of what most of us want.

The Colcord
The Skirvin
Soliel
XO
The Park Harvey
The Montgomery
Trattoria il Centro
Legacy Summit
Grateful Bean
McNellie's
Irma's Burger Shack
The Osler
The Sieber
Red
IAO Gallery
Untitled: Art Space
Coney Island
The Civic Center
OKCMOA
Museum Cafe
the new development on the Mercy site

...all add up to a very nice mix of residential, retail, restaurants, entertainment, and hotels. And things are just getting started in those areas. Where as Bricktown has been mostly restaurants and bars from the get go, Midtown, AA Alley, Arts Quarter, and even the CBD are developing with much more balance.


I also would like to mention that my aunt from Milwaukee and her boyfriend visited OKC for Christmas and were very impressed with downtown and Bricktown. We mentioned going down to Bricktown and my aunt, who lived in Tulsa in the 80's while at ORU and TU, said "oh yeah I've been there back when I lived in Tulsa". We all kind of snickered because obviously it's changed a little bit. She went on and on about how much OKC has improved itself (and how much Tulsa has declined). Her boyfriend has a masters in Urban Planning and was also very impressed with all of downtown. They called it "a very livable city", and even though she loved Milwaukee (another good role model for us), I heard her ask him twice if he wanted to move to Oklahoma City with her.

Jbrown, Good job of bringing us back to remembering all the good things that are happening that are helping OKC move in the right direction. That was a good list and - you are right - we must remember that Midtown, Bricktown, the Arts District, the improvements in the CBD, the upcoming river development, all of that is moving toward a nice urban vibe. We're moving in the right direction. I also think you are right that that there needs to be some kind of consensus on the future of Bricktown - beyond the PR from the Bricktown Association and those with a status quo interest in Lower Bricktown. Nice post, JBrown. Oh, it's always good to hear those first-hand reports from visitors!

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Amen to that. Yeah, jbrown's list opened my eyes to the great mix non-Bricktown downtown has. I would add the Myriad Gardens, which I think we all agree has a lot of potential as a magnet, and the library. When you have time to kill downtown, the library is a nice hangout.

As a side note, I'd argue the art museum is the most important thing to happen downtown other than Bricktown. The film program discovered a market for independent films that no one knew existed and gave downtown some intellectual stimulation. The store was the first new CBD retail space constructed in decades and offers merchandise no other downtown retailer does. The museum brought an internationally known brand to downtown in the Dale Chihuly glassworks collection. The restaurant is one of the few French-inspired restaurants in the city and brought fine dining to the CBD (other than the private clubs). The school gives people an opportunity to learn and create. Cocktails on the Skyline is a signature downtown event. The building reinforced the municipal Art Deco ensemble in the arts district and turned the City Hall lawns into a public space.

Great points about the Art Museum. It really is a major asset. I'm always touting it to residents and visitors alike.

Sorry, Writerranger, for misrepresenting your sentiment. I think comparisons to Chicago, or other long established urban cities, are usually meant as isolated anecdotes and not actual realistic planning goals for the city. However, when we talk of establishing urban living in Oklahoma City, I still think the urban neighborhoods of those cities should be our guides. There is not one city in America that doesn't not have large suburban elements. Chicago has tons of suburban life, and even cities like New York, San Francisco, and Seattle all have their suburban surroundings. To the extent of living options in their metropolitan areas, they have it all. Oklahoma City does not. On some scale, I think we could offer more.

In my mind, the key to urban living is not exclusively defined by a dense mix of residential high rises like a Manhattan. Most urban life is actually spent in neighborhoods comprised of a dense mix of low and mid-rise buildings which house residential, retail, restaurant and entertainment services. While I completely agree that Oklahoma City is not going ever have an urban core of 3 million people, it is very feasible to have several neighborhoods that resemble in appearance and lifestyle places like, say, the Wicker Park/Bucktown area in Chicago. In that, I think the comparisons are valid and that those cities have many elements that could be experienced even in Oklahoma City given the right minded developers. I actually think the Triangle developers are of this mindset.

So, while I think any realistic goal is not going to include trying to make Oklahoma City a full blown Chicago or similar city, I do think those cities and, specifically, their residential urban neighborhoods, have a valid place in the discussion. I completely agree with you that the real goal is to provide a taste of urban living, so that the community has something to offer those who want that lifestyle an option. That way, we don't have to keep telling people that want to be able to walk to work or to see a movie or to get a gallon of milk or go to a bar, etc. to look elsewhere. The real goal here is to make Oklahoma City more competitive in living options so we can attract a diverse work force and build a stronger community for the next century and the next generation.

Anyway, I think we're on the same page here. I think maybe you took Chicago references maybe too far, just as I took your relocating suggestion too far. In the end, I think we both want that blank to be filled with much more than Oklahoma City currently offers, even if we both know it will never include full blown urban living on the scale of America's biggest cities.

What's wrong with having people who want to go to Bass Pro, Wormy Dog, and Toby Keith's and listen to country music? That's a culture as much as anything else, and believe it or not, that western kind of cowboy culture can be a very urban, upscale culture! Look at the stockyards- there's a lot of expensive merchandise down there, and classy people who frequent those establishments. These places aren't just about "bubba factor" they're also about attracting young, fashionable, fun people who are part of a certain culture- that culture is just as relevant as the kind who will go to the Petroleum Club and drink champagne or whatever.

And what's wrong with teenagers? If in Bricktown teenagers are thinking they have found a really cool place to be in OKC, that sounds like a success. Those are the people who are the future of Oklahoma, and if we can snare them and show them that they can live here and have a really cool, successful life, that is GOOD. So the more young people we see in Bricktown, the better.

The real goal here is to make Oklahoma City more competitive in living options so we can attract a diverse work force and build a stronger community for the next century and the next generation.

Well stated. And I think Shane has a point as well. Since the curfew has been enacted, there haven't been any more problems with teenagers in Bricktown, so I say let the come and be excited by what OKC has to offer. If dismayed doesn't like to be around teenagers, I guess he can go eat at Soliel or Red. I'm sure there won't be any teens hanging around those joints.

Well... here's where my teenager comment came from. I had the misfortune of being in Bricktown a few months ago, apparently during Reggaefest. In the 3-4 hours I was down there, there were three shootings, all of them between teenagers. There were literally thousands of people roaming around on the streets. Normally this would be a very good and exciting thing for Bricktown -- the problem was that none of them were actually going inside restaurants/bars/venues/etc. because they were too young or didn't have the money, and many were just lingering around on the street causing problems (such as harassing one another). I can't commend the OCPD enough for the wonderful job they did that night keeping order.

Now that one was the extreme example, but I have been down there many nights when the thug element was out in full force. I have no problems with teenagers who are there for a reason, but the last few times I was in Bricktown there was definitely a problem with kids just roaming around and not actually going anywhere. I'm hoping the curfew has solved this problem -- only time will tell. I think it was a step in the right direction though.

dismayed, sounds like you just happened to be down there the very night of the only major incedent of that kind that led to the aformentioned curfew, and as I said, there haven't been any problems since.

what is wrong with free enterprise ,,,,,bricktown is for everyone.........it started with candy warehouses and no lights to homeless to nonnas...........its for every one from parking to eateries

Did someone question the merits of free enterprise? I'm confused.

The fact is that free enterprise can fail as well. I think in these discussions we're just talking about what free enterprise has yielded and whether we think it's good or bad for the community, whether it was a success in its own right, and, of course, whether we personally like the living options it has provided the city... all within the context of free enterprise.

But, we should also be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that bricktown is not just the result of free enterprise. A great deal of it has been enhanced with public funds and developed as the result of sweetheart deals. In that context it is completed justified to discuss it within the context of whether or not our public investment has improved the city's competitive position and added to its quality of life. Personally, I think that those that have most directly benefited from public assistance have a greater responsibility to bringing something extra or new to the community, to maximize the community's ROI. In many examples, I think the opposite has happened, where some who have received the greatest gifts from the city have done the least to improve it or made the least amount of effort to give something back.

well ROI and benefiting from public funds is great, but if you go back to the existience of maps brewer and karchmer said no way at first. While they were paying property taxes on the worst property in all of OKC for 10 years (now thats expensive) Norick said "you will be the greatest beneficiery of it all", all you have to do is raise 50,000............brewer said i will raise it or I will put it up myself and raised 53,000), with a turnaround of 5 years (who would of thought) (the city would produce in five years)(Norick (enough said)) and look at it now..........there is a lot more to this story if anyone wants to know.........ask steve lackmeyer cause it all began with karchmer tolbert and brewer........with the vision of neal horton.............

I'd love to see a Johnnies in Bricktown. Pure Oklahoma in flavor.

I'd love to see a Johnnies in Bricktown. Pure Oklahoma in flavor.

The Nothing but Noodles/Rio del Fuego spot would be suited to a Johnnie's. With Earl's and Sonic in the immediate area -- that'd be a lot of locally owned 'taste's of OKC' in Lower Reno.

Never went to RdF, but if they kept the same configuration as the Noodle joint, it wouldn't be too far off from some of the Johnnie's/Johnnie's Express locations around town...

Not a big fan of Johnnie's. I'd rather see a City Bites or Jersey Mike's there.

Yeah, not much of a Johnnies fan eitehr but yes it would be a good spot for a location. Funny, Hogan kept saying he would have a new restaurant in there open before Christmas, it's now almost February with no tenant yet.

Non Johnnie's fans??...They make a mean burger, fries and pies...3,000 calories never tasted so good

Johnnie's! Ooooooohhhhh man. The Theta Burger, a large order of cheese fries and a chocolate shake. Not healthy but definatley yummy. My mouth' s watering just thinking about it.

what were the noodles guys thinking,,,,,,,,,quit the franchise deal and go out of bus??? franchise fees are better than nothing..........too many mexican

Has anyone noticed the Nothing But Noodles by Quail Springs has changed their sign to just "Noodles"?

I have mixed feelings about Bricktown. I love the crowds of people and atmosphere of everyone being out to 'have a good time.' But there is always some drunk as* there that has to ruin it by saying something rude. I hate dressing up because guys, without fail, will always hit on me, on purpose, in front of my husband. That is very disrespectful. I never leave Bricktown without wanting to kick at least one guy in the nuts. Haha. Ok, it's nice to know 'you still got it,' but lets keep things appropriate.

And every time my husband and I go out to dinner and stay out late in Bricktown we're surrounded by a bunch of kids that should already be home because of their curfews. They're all a bunch of delinquents! And that's coming from someone that is 19..

I dunno, no suggestion on how to better the situation except wear sweat pants and a sweater everytime I go there and leave at 10 O'clock.

I dunno, no suggestion on how to better the situation except wear sweat pants and a sweater everytime I go there and leave at 10 O'clock.

Easiest solution would be to just tack on another 40 or 50 lbs...May help the situation some....No charge for my helpful advice btw

I just wish they could get the Bass Pro Shop out of there. It'd also definitely be nice to see Toby Keith's joint go, but I can admit that it's not as embarrassing as Bass Pro. Such wasted space. Anyway...

I second the addition of a City Bites in the NbN location. I am a fan of City Bites and that'd be a fantastic choice.

I have no problem with the existence of Toby Keith's in Bricktown, it's just the building that sucks with it's brickless, pad-site structure.

there are all types but you are talking about the minority i apologize for you poor experiences, however the majority only intend to have a good time. Which is the same in every small town oklahoma.....there is always a bad seed in every garden.........