As our state continues to grow, it seems as though our two largest cities are experiencing rapid growth in population and economic development. Although OKC is growing at a good clip, it appears that Tulsa has the most momentum lately. During the next 10 years, which city will enjoy the most prosperity? Will Tulsa ever take over as the state's most populous metro or will OKC leave Tulsa in the dust as the years go by?

What momentum does Tulsa have besides building things that we already have. Been there done that. Tell me something I don't know.

I agree. I dont think Tulsa has any momentum advantage over OKC.

If anything, Tulsa does hold OKC back from its full potential in that it is a large city which siphons away from what otherwise would go to OKC - but OKC is definitely the big boy of the block and OKC will continue to be.

I think OKC will blow Tulsa away in the next census. Look for OKC to be 600,000+ city/1.5+ CMA. Tulsa 400,000 city (high estimate)/950,000 CMA (which includes Bartlesville by the way).

Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.

P.S. Tulsa already has 950,000 in the CMSA. And there are already 390,000 in the corporal city limits.

Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.

like OKC doesn't have any.

Oh, and Tulsa HAD 393K in its city in 2000 but dropped down to what 378K in the 2005 estimate (??). I look for it to go up to 400K and that's being nice.

Well seeing as you are such a nice guy, I'm sure you'll be fair to the other city in this state. And I notice you don't concede the metro population, or do you?

Don't matter, but I can say that OKC's private sector is less diversified, and in terms of job growth, is a drop in the bucket for this state compared to the job market in Tulsa, that is through the roof right now.

[QUOTE=Spartan;79298]Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.
[QUOTE]

I actually agree with Spartan. The private sector in Tulsa is more creative, knowledge-based, and dynamic than OKC's.

Either way, OKC will leave Tulsa in the dust as far as sheer population goes. Its in the middle of the state, divided by 2 major trans-continental corridors. Not to mention the reason Tulsa is seeing slightly better numbers than OKC this year is because they are playing catch up. Look at OKC's numbers the last few years. As someone said, they are building things we already have. With the Hornets or whatever NBA team we might have and the new downtown boulevard and Oklahoma River potential, we'll be a whole new city before Tulsa lands one major league team. Oh and by the way, we are the Capitol City too.

Either way, OKC will leave Tulsa in the dust as far as sheer population goes. Its in the middle of the state, divided by 2 major trans-continental corridors. Not to mention the reason Tulsa is seeing slightly better numbers than OKC this year is because they are playing catch up. Look at OKC's numbers the last few years. As someone said, they are building things we already have. With the Hornets or whatever NBA team we might have and the new downtown boulevard and Oklahoma River potential, we'll be a whole new city before Tulsa lands one major league team. Oh and by the way, we are the Capitol City too.

As I've said before, population means squat if people's idea of growth means call center jobs. Being the capital protects OKC from downturns, but that in no way means that OKC has more growth potential. I don't know where Tulsa is headed, and I don't care what they've built; the fact is Tulsa is more entrepreneurial. Most of OKC's success really has been top-down.

I wasn't saying that more population meant anything. I simply said OKC will continue to have a larger population. But you have to realize OKC is rapidly becoming more entrepreneurial by the day. And with quality of life issues only continuing to improve, this should stay on track. Also we have one of the best medical research facilities in the country and I only see that continuing to grow. With that being said. It's going to be a neck and neck race on the entrepreneurial front.

I wasn't saying that more population meant anything. I simply said OKC will continue to have a larger population. But you have to realize OKC is rapidly becoming more entrepreneurial by the day. And with quality of life issues only continuing to improve, this should stay on track. Also we have one of the best medical research facilities in the country and I only see that continuing to grow. With that being said. It's going to be a neck and neck race on the entrepreneurial front.

And that is why it is exciting to be in OKC right now...:poke:

I have to somewhat disagree with floater. Traditionally, Tulsa was always the more entrpreneurial city. Yet in the last fifteen years, Oklahoma City has seen plenty of start-up companies. Two of them were no-name companies with less than ten employees. Today, they are a LARGE part of OKC's corporate base... Devon and Chesapeake. That's not to say that Tulsa is any less entrepreneurial. Both cities are gung-ho on private sector business. What helped Oklahoma City were the Forward Oklahoma City agendas initiated by the OKC Chamber of Commerce. Each program has been aimed at business growth in OKC, and our burgeoning bio-tech sector is a result of that initiative. I am really excited to see when and what will be a part of Forward Oklahoma City IV.

It's important to note that both Tulsa and OKC Chambers of Commerce have forged a partnership to propel the growth of both cities, and it gives Oklahoma's city-dwelling population a more audible voice at the state capitol.

Remember that just because OKC has a government base doesn't mean the city's economic dynamics cannot be transformed. Didn't stop Austin, Texas from becoming a mecca in technology.

I also don't buy Oklahoma City's larger land area as the only reason for the city's population growth. Tulsa's population can easily grow as well with its smaller land area, but many neighborhoods are opposed to Tulsa building up. I do believe Oklahoma City, with all of the most recent activity, will continue its growth both proper and metro. An increase in that growth depends on how each city's government steers its leadership and chamber initiatives. Our city is still a work in progress, as we still have some serious issues that need to be addressed.

But Tulsa is not without hinderance either. Bell's is looking for a new home... outside Tulsa city limits. All of the riverfront development is also occuring in the suburbs, and the city council, airport board and police department continues to struggle internally. How Tulsa's new arena will help the city remains to be seen. It's an architectural icon, but 18,000 seats maximum capacity is iffy.

I am always behind OKC's growth, however, I prefer to take a wait and see approach for the sake of statewide growth.

Have any of you been to Tulsa lately? It is depressing. I go there on business all the time and there is absolutely NO MOMENTUM there for anything.

It USED to be more "entrepreneurial" and private sector than OKC. Today, that is not so much the case.

Other than Williams and H&P, Tulsa has hemmorhaged most of its important energy industry jobs. What's left? Quik Trip? Dollar Thrifty?

Come on!

OKC is kicking Tulsa's ass in every way imaginable. Chesapeake and Devon are growing faster than any company in the city of Tulsa. Tulsa has nothing to rival or approximate the research campus at PHF.

Tulsa is resting on past laurels and it is becoming progressively more blue collar by the day. It has a terrible crime problem, is grossly divided along racial lines and lacks leadership at the city level.

Don't take my word for it. Walk around their downtown during PEAK business hours. It is a depressing ghost town. Tulsa has no real momentum right now except for a beautiful arena being built. The job growth figures you see are something of a mirage; how could it not grow when it had been losing jobs for years?

It's going to take a long time for Tulsa to be anywhere close to OKC -- and it will probably never happen.

It USED to be more "entrepreneurial" and private sector than OKC. Today, that is not so much the case.

Other than Williams and H&P, Tulsa has hemmorhaged most of its important energy industry jobs. What's left? Quik Trip? Dollar Thrifty?

Come on!

OKC is kicking Tulsa's ass in every way imaginable. Chesapeake and Devon are growing faster than any company in the city of Tulsa. Tulsa has nothing to rival or approximate the research campus at PHF.



Semgroup, founded in 2000, 9th largest private company in the nation, almost as large as Devon and Cheasapeake combined. Sorry about that bubble.

soonerguru What Tulsa are you talking about.

Soonerguru is right as far as Tulsa's internal problems are concerned. My relatives in Tulsa are even complaining the city's falling apart. And they've been in Tulsa for over 40 years.

Walk around their downtown during PEAK business hours. It is a depressing ghost town.

I have to completely agree with that statement. I've been there around 5:30 on a Saturday and there isn't a soul around. All the restaurants are closed. And then we came back around 10 to take pictures and it was filled with homeless people and there is no street lighting except on Boston Ave.

Some research:

Oklahoma has 11 companies (or 12, more on that later) large enough to be on the Fortune 1000 (public companies) and Forbes Largest Private companies lists. Five are in OKC and six in Tulsa. The three largest are all in Tulsa.

Oneok, public, $12.8 billion in revenue
Williams, public, $12.6 billion in revenue
Semgroup, privately held, $12.57 billion in revenue
QuikTrip, privately held, $5.86 billion in revenue
Vanguard, public, $2.89 billion in revenue
Dollar-Thrifty, public, $1.52 in reveue

Devon, public, $9.19 billion in revenue
OG&E, public, $6.02 billion in revenue
Chesapeake Energy, public, $4.67 billion in revenue
Love’s Travel Stops, privately held, $2.21 billion in revenue
Hobby Lobby Stores, privately held, $1.35 billion in revenue

Tulsa’s total: $48.24 billion

OKC’s total: $23.44 billion

Samson Energy in Tulsa should also be on this list, but, they are private and chose not to report earnings any longer. The last time I could find they released numbers was in 1990 with revenues $4.35 billion, and energy prices have not exactly gone down. They are reportedly bigger than Williams, but no one really knows since they aren’t saying.

If Samson is really is as large or larger than Williams then Tulsa’s total would climb to over $60 billion to OKC’s $23.44. Oh, and with recent acquisitions and growth, BOK will probably climb onto this list for ’06 and will pass Hobby Lobby in revenue.

But then, Tulsa really is just dead, no growth anywhere. right?

You might want to checkout Semgroup’s new research campus by the way.

New Tulsa lab: SemGroup paves way for asphalt research (http://forum.yptulsa.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=8e19c04cc5637911e2a3bbd8269c77 09&topic=327.new)

As for pure growth, Tulsa has two companies on the Fortune 100 fastest growing companies list to OKC’s one, and while Chesapeake is the fast growing company in the state (30th in the Nation), Unit Corp is right behind at 37th. (Oneok at 55 was the other company on the list)

Swake, this isn't a measuring contest to see who has the bigger pie. This thread is discussing the direction of both cities in the future. Our point is that OKC is far more private sector than in years past, especially compared to the 1990's. No one said Tulsa has lost its groove in the private sector. Yet, the activity in OKC is far more obvious, mostly since Chesapeake Energy continues adding office buildings to its campus and Devon keeps absorbing office space downtown. Sonic continues its national expansion, and Hertz has everything here except its national HQ, which rumor here in Houston says that relocation to OKC is not far off.

Tulsa still does not have a bio-tech research campus of OKC's caliber. The PHF Research Park keeps having to add buildings, because every single current building is leased. And it's not just one company. A dozen or so bio-tech companies occupy the campus. OKC's overall goal is to bridge the research park with St. Anthony's Hospital 1.5 miles west to create one large research and bio-science corridor, creating many high-paying research jobs.

OKC's companies have become far more involved with our community. And that is a good thing that cannot be argued. That wasn't very much the case before. Our chamber of commerce has been very agressive with growing OKC's private sector, and it's paying off. It's everyone's observation that the synergy in OKC is strong, and everytime I'm in Tulsa, all anyone can talk about is how much they enjoy the hills and trees. Any other discussion involves suburban development...

"Did you here what they are doing in Broken Arrow?" Or "Did you see the new such and such in Jenks?" Or how about "The new development in Owasso is amazing." The last remark about Tulsa I heard from a relative was "Bell's is moving out."

Actually, it was said that "the city's falling apart" and "what's left? Quik Trip? Dollar Thrifty?" and that "OKC is kicking Tulsa's ass in every way imaginable. Chesapeake and Devon are growing faster than any company in the city of Tulsa" and "building things that we already have. Been there done that"

Sorry, but none of that is true and you just don't like seeing the facts over the private sector.

Truth is Tulsa's two new companies, Vanguard and Semgroup combined are larger than Chesapeake and Devon and Tulsa's private sector is, despite claims, much larger than OKCs and you are doing nothing to close that gap.

Sorry, but none of that is true and you just don't like seeing the facts over the private sector.

Truth is Tulsa's two new companies, Vanguard and Semgroup combined are larger than Chesapeake and Devon and Tulsa's private sector is, despite claims, much larger than OKCs and you are doing nothing to close that gap.

Can you back that up? Can you provide ten years worth of data to say that we are not closing that gap? One year is just not enough to argue progress in a city's private sector. Regardless of how Tulsa's companies are performing, I don't see them pitching in for a pro-team (OKC's corporate community is supporting TWO pro teams... Hornets and Sonics). I've been to, visited and immersed myself in Tulsa culture enough to know two facts of life about Tulsa...

The city seems to think they are more cultured than OKC which is a total laugh (art museums isn't culture... it's art. Culture is people), and the local citizens brag on the same qualities year after year... "We have Philbrook and Gilcrease Art Museums." I'll have to hand it to Tulsa, though, the Oklahoma Aquarium kicks ass... wait, that's Jenks.

In Oklahoma City, 13 years ago, we bragged on... well, nothing. Bricktown wasn't even a hub of nightlife. There was no Western. There was no corporate synergy. There was nothing. Tulsa had much more to brag on 13 years ago, but today, almost 2007, Tulsa's story hasn't changed much. Oklahoma City's has, and it's not just Bricktown. The Asian District, Western Avenue and Adventure District alone speaks volumes. Do you see where we are going with this?

The point here is long term growth. Personally, I see both cities thriving long term. BUt it turned into a debate because most people in Tulsa refuse to see their weak points, and that irritates me. You can't paint a pretty picture on a crappy canvas. Eventually the paint peels off.

All I have done is present facts, real numbers and I never said that Tulsa does not have weak points.

In fact I have said nothing negative at all about OKC except that "doing nothing to close that gap" and I provided hard numbers to back that statement up.

Find a single negative statement I have made on this thread at all?

You are the ones with the issues, here are just some of the statements you all have made:

"You can't paint a pretty picture on a crappy canvas"

"The city seems to think they are more cultured than OKC which is a total laugh"

"last remark about Tulsa I heard from a relative was "Bell's is moving out." (Um, Bell's wasn't IN Tulsa)

"everytime I'm in Tulsa, all anyone can talk about is how much they enjoy the hills and trees"

"Have any of you been to Tulsa lately? It is depressing"

"It is a depressing ghost town"

"My relatives in Tulsa are even complaining the city's falling apart"

"What momentum does Tulsa have besides building things that we already have. Been there done that. Tell me something I don't know"




What are you so afraid of?

You are correct, Swake, you didn't say anything negative. You presented facts, and they are undisputable facts. I am just posting what I hear from family in Tulsa as a way for someone to explain Tulsa's problems, and they city is willing to do to address those issues for long term growth.

As far as the statement I made regarding Tulsa's idea of culture, that was just something I needed to get off my chest, because it's something I have heard a lot over the years.

There is nothing I am afraid of, just hoping that Tulsa would someday own up to its problems we all know is there.

I for one would love to see Tulsa come back in a big way. I have nothing against the city. As a kid and college student I used to love to visit Tulsa and found it very cosmopolitan in comparison to OKC.

So much has changed since then. Tulsa still has potential, but it seems to be in big trouble. I'm not sure how I feel about the Channels project; it seems like something that will be much lamer than it is portrayed to the citizens.

There is absolutely no energy or cohesion in Tulsa right now. I meet with corporate leaders there all the time and they say the same thing. There's almost a bunker mentality there, though, when it comes to OKC. They rip OKC mercilessly but are clueless about how much cooler it is to live here than it used to be -- and arguably cooler than Tulsa has been in some time.

Right now, OKC has more energy, a better downtown, a better music scene, a better restaurant scene, a much bigger population and much more momentum.

I meet with corporate leaders there all the time and they say the same thing. There's almost a bunker mentality there, though, when it comes to OKC.

The corporate leaders even rip OKC? See, this is when Tulsa becomes a city I just don't like. When Tulsa's local media, city leaders, citizens and corporate leaders are all in on the 'let's rip OKC to shreds' propoganda, that's when Tulsa becomes my enemy. I used to love Tulsa... until I discovered the "We Hate OKC" culture, which pretty much sums up the city of Tulsa. Why should I be partial with Tulsa?

The corporate leaders even rip OKC? See, this is when Tulsa becomes a city I just don't like. When Tulsa's local media, city leaders, citizens and corporate leaders are all in on the 'let's rip OKC to shreds' propoganda, that's when Tulsa becomes my enemy. I used to love Tulsa... until I discovered the "We Hate OKC" culture, which pretty much sums up the city of Tulsa. Why should I be partial with Tulsa?

Please, provide examples of this anywhere other than former mayor misfortune, who was quickly shown the door.

and Hertz has everything here except its national HQ, which rumor here in Houston says that relocation to OKC is not far off.

That would certainly make Oklahoma the "car rental company capitol of the world".



Please, provide examples of this anywhere other than former mayor misfortune, who was quickly shown the door.

Okay. A Tulsa company published "Oklahoma Magazine", and even places it in OKC retail outlets, yet all the articles are about Tulsa, things in Tulsa, people in Tulsa, etc, etc, etc. Their annual "Best of OK" issue is nothing but Tulsa except in things it can't claim like best sports entertainment. The whole magazine screams "Tulsa is the only thing good in Oklahoma". It's an utter joke, and speaking as someone who works for an advertising agency that ignored the magazine for advertising our clients, it completely alienates OKC. It's pure arrogance.

Explain the "Daily Oklahoman" then, much the same thing, only a nod to Tulsa even existing, no "city" in the name.

Well, the Oklahoman has a complete "State" section every Sunday, and features ongoing coverage of the Tar Creek saga, Illinois River pollution issues, small towns, and statewide "Discover Oklahoma" articles in the Destinations section. Sure, it doesn't cover Tulsa much simply because Tulsa has it's own major paper. But I guarantee you most people in smaller towns read the Oklahoman before they read the Tulsa World. It makes sense that the statewide paper is based in the state capital.

Directly from "Oklahoma" Magazine's website:

"Our December 2006 issue has something for everyone. We take a look at Tulsa’s Art Deco treasures and a group that’s trying to save them. Plus, find out how Oklahoma rates when it comes to taking care of Mother Earth. Meet women religious leaders who are making a difference, and learn about autism through one Tulsa family’s story."

"Oklahoma Magazine’s guide to the holidays is your resource for shopping, buying art and winter fashion. Inside this issue, you’ll meet some of the best-dressed Oklahomans in our annual People with Style, and get sneak peek inside homes decked out for the Jenks Home Tour."

"PIPELINING IN MY BLOOD

With Oklahoma’s upcoming attainment of the centennial milestone, it seems like there’s a newfound appreciation for all manner of Sooner State phenomena aged 100 years. But how about an Oklahoma business that’s even older? Tulsa-based Sheehan Pipe Line Construction Company, the nation’s oldest such company and without question one of its most successful, has local roots that date back to 1903.
That year, John “Jack” Sheehan, ...blah, blah, blah..."

WHAT I'VE LEARNED (bios/interviews)

Linda Hasler-Reid
Oklahoma 2007 / Centennial State
Teacher of the Year
Spanish Teacher, 7th and 8th Grade Center, Muskogee Public Schools

David R. Stewart, CEO (pictured in Tulsa's Cherokee Casino)
Cherokee Nation Enterprises, LLC
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Derek W. Gates, Owner and Principal Engineer
D.W. Gates Engineering Services, Tulsa

Sheryl Chinowth, CEO
Chinowth & Cohen Realtors, Tulsa

Jeffery W. Davis, CEO
U.S. Beef Corporation / Arby’s, Tulsa


and a list of their advertisers...

Utica Square
Bank of Oklahoma
Land Rover Tulsa
Lexus of Tulsa
Hillcrest
Yale Cleaners
Miss Jackson's
Center One
Crown BMW
Bartlesville Area Convention and Visitors Center
Gilcrease Museum
Toni's Flowers & Gifts
Don Tracy Glass Co.
Natural Stone Source
Fox 23
Farmers Insurance Group
Brighton Gardens Assisted Living
Fuji Japanese Cuisine and Sushi Bar
Tulsa Job Corp.
University School
Riverfield Country Day School
Cherokee Casino • Resort
Cox Communications
Mill Creek
Heartland Flyer
Cisar-Holt
Los Cabos
Tulsa Symphony Orchestra
Vespa Oklahoma
Bella Body Image
Celebrity Attractions





it speaks for itself

Directly from "Oklahoma" Magazine's website:

"Our December 2006 issue has something for everyone. We take a look at Tulsa’s Art Deco treasures and a group that’s trying to save them. Plus, find out how Oklahoma rates when it comes to taking care of Mother Earth. Meet women religious leaders who are making a difference, and learn about autism through one Tulsa family’s story."

"Oklahoma Magazine’s guide to the holidays is your resource for shopping, buying art and winter fashion. Inside this issue, you’ll meet some of the best-dressed Oklahomans in our annual People with Style, and get sneak peek inside homes decked out for the Jenks Home Tour."

"PIPELINING IN MY BLOOD

With Oklahoma’s upcoming attainment of the centennial milestone, it seems like there’s a newfound appreciation for all manner of Sooner State phenomena aged 100 years. But how about an Oklahoma business that’s even older? Tulsa-based Sheehan Pipe Line Construction Company, the nation’s oldest such company and without question one of its most successful, has local roots that date back to 1903.
That year, John “Jack” Sheehan, ...blah, blah, blah..."

WHAT I'VE LEARNED (bios/interviews)

Linda Hasler-Reid
Oklahoma 2007 / Centennial State
Teacher of the Year
Spanish Teacher, 7th and 8th Grade Center, Muskogee Public Schools

David R. Stewart, CEO (pictured in Tulsa's Cherokee Casino)
Cherokee Nation Enterprises, LLC
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Derek W. Gates, Owner and Principal Engineer
D.W. Gates Engineering Services, Tulsa

Sheryl Chinowth, CEO
Chinowth & Cohen Realtors, Tulsa

Jeffery W. Davis, CEO
U.S. Beef Corporation / Arby’s, Tulsa


and a list of their advertisers...

Utica Square
Bank of Oklahoma
Land Rover Tulsa
Lexus of Tulsa
Hillcrest
Yale Cleaners
Miss Jackson's
Center One
Crown BMW
Bartlesville Area Convention and Visitors Center
Gilcrease Museum
Toni's Flowers & Gifts
Don Tracy Glass Co.
Natural Stone Source
Fox 23
Farmers Insurance Group
Brighton Gardens Assisted Living
Fuji Japanese Cuisine and Sushi Bar
Tulsa Job Corp.
University School
Riverfield Country Day School
Cherokee Casino • Resort
Cox Communications
Mill Creek
Heartland Flyer
Cisar-Holt
Los Cabos
Tulsa Symphony Orchestra
Vespa Oklahoma
Bella Body Image
Celebrity Attractions





it speaks for itself

Really, this is just moronic. Are Tulsan’s are not from Oklahoma?

The “Daily Oklahoman” is Oklahoma City’s newspaper, not Tulsa’s, do you think it should change it’s name? it even claim’s to be “The State’s Newspaper” and yet only gives nodding attention to anything in Tulsa. Tulsa Metro is over 25% of the state population and you admit there is little in it about Tulsa.

Come on, it can’t be the state’s newspaper if ignores such a large part of the state. But you know what, I have never heard anyone complain about the name of Oklahoma City's paper or it's byline.

The Oklahoman is a Oklahoma newspaper and as such certainly can use that name, nothing wrong with it. And the Oklahoman has newspaper boxes all over Tulsa, for the record.

It would be petty and moronic to take offence at the lack of articles and ads from Tulsa in a newspaper printed in Oklahoma City, no matter what that paper is titled.

But, apparently Tulsans cannot use the name “Oklahoma” in anything if we don’t include Oklahoma City with at least equal news and ad space? That’s stupid and offensive and shows the attitude, the narcissistic attitude, of some about Oklahoma City and its place in the state.

Get over it, it’s published in Tulsa and is about Oklahoma, it’s just not really focused to be about your part of the state much. Just like the Oklahoman Newspaper. And what about the Oklahoma Gazette? Is there ever an article, any article about Tulsa?

And, no matter what, I truly fail to see this as an example of “Tulsa's local media, city leaders, citizens and corporate leaders are all in on the 'let's rip OKC to shreds' propaganda”. Not giving equal space in a magazine is hardly “ripping to shreds”. Has there ever been there a single negative article about Oklahoma City in that magazine? And that piece of fluff can only marginally be called “media” anyway.

That would certainly make Oklahoma the "car rental company capitol of the world".



Car rental is a great example Oklahoma city not keeping up with Tulsa in the private sector.

Oklahoma might be the car rental capital of the nation? How about Tulsa already is.

Oklahoma City has the operations part of Hertz and is rumored that it might get the headquarters. While that would be a big win for Oklahoma City and the state and I hope that happens, Tulsa already has the headquarters of Dollar, Thrifty, National, and Alamo and has the operations part of Avis and Budget.







Please someone, back up the statement: “Tulsa's local media, city leaders, citizens and corporate leaders are all in on the 'let's rip OKC to shreds' propaganda”.

This simply isn't true and there is far more crap coming from the south side of the turnpike and it's over stupid perceptions and comments that for the most part (outside of one ridiculous and disgraced former mayor) are just that Tulsan’s don’t think Oklahoma City is the worlds greatest city and don’t all just love Bricktown. And far worse, might actually think Tulsa has some better attributes that Oklahoma City (and if Tulsan’s didn’t think that overall, why would they live in Tulsa?)

Grow up, really.

Car rental is a great example Oklahoma city not keeping up with Tulsa in the private sector.

Oklahoma might be the car rental capital of the nation? How about Tulsa already is.

Oklahoma City has the operations part of Hertz and is rumored that it might get the headquarters. While that would be a big win for Oklahoma City and the state and I hope that happens, Tulsa already has the headquarters of Dollar, Thrifty, National, and Alamo and has the operations part of Avis and Budget.


Oh please. That's ridiculous. How many cities DON'T have the (inter)national headquarters of a car rental company. Almost every city. The fact that Tulsa has Vanguard and Dollar-Thrifty and OKC on has Hertz (sort of) is hardly an example of us lagging behind you in the private sector.


As I stated before, The Oklahoman does have occasional Tulsa-related articles, and the only reason it's semi-ignored is because nobody reads The Oklahoman for Tulsa news, they read the Tulsa World. It's overkill. It's better to focus on OKC and the rest of the state.

I never said that magazine actually "ripped" OKC or whatever words someone else used. It's simply an example of the arrogant attitude that some Tulsans have regarding their superiority.


Again, from their About Us on their website (www.okmag.com):

"Our monthly columns/departments include: dining guide, calendar of events, business profiles, health news, home and garden, travel and people features — something for every Oklahoman.
And Oklahoma Magazine invests in our communities. We sponsor local nonprofit events important to the causes our readers care about, including breast cancer awareness, women’s heart health, muscular dystrophy and the arts."


They say they represent the entire state, yet they clearly do not, or they would have OKC-based advertisers. And I have never seen them sponsor any OKC community event or cause.

No, they said they had "something for every oklahoman", i.e. something for every Oklahoman to read. Maybe YOU just specifially DON'T want to read anything about Tulsa or the Tulsa area. I think this would you YOUR bias that is showing, not the magazine's.

And, where exactly does it say Oklahoma Magazine represents the entire state?

And, for the record, I have seen some articles about Oklahoma City in this magazine, not many, but some. Kinda like your newspaper, "The Oklahoman", which does state that it IS "The State's Newspaper" everyday, right on the front page and is sold all over Tulsa.

"something for every Oklahoman" = represents the entire state

No, they said they had "something for every oklahoman", i.e. something for every Oklahoman to read. Maybe YOU just specifially DON'T want to read anything about Tulsa or the Tulsa area. I think this would you YOUR bias that is showing, not the magazine's.

So "Something for every Oklahoman" actually means and translates to "something for every oklahoman to read" they just forgot to add the last word. So if someone from Missouri is staying in Oklahoma for a few days and sees this magazine at their hotel, they shouldn't pick it up because it has something for every Oklahoman to read but not every Missourian or anyone else that might be able to read?

Wow swake, aren't we defensive.

There, there :pat_head:

What in the hell are you so offended about? Why are people in OKC so damned touchy about Tulsa and what Tulsan's think of your city?

Back on topic: Prospects for growth, let's see.

Health care and research. Oklahoma City has a very good growth engine in the OU Medical Center. Tulsa has a lot to catch up with the OSU Medical Center, but now that Tulsa does have that we should see more growth in that sector. OKC big advantage.

Oil and Gas is still Tulsa’s baby and rising prices are only going to help. Oklahoma City will also see growth in this sector, but with less of an existing industry segment the growth will be less. Tulsa big advantage, but, energy is so cyclical, look for periods of little or no growth.

Aerospace, Oklahoma City and Tulsa are both big here and this sector should be taking off again very soon. Tulsa’s has an advantage today with it’s segment being already larger and OKC’s is too much invested in the military. With Boeings Dreamliner taking off and Quantas being purchased by Spirit Aerospace’s parent company, I would think Tulsa’s prospects for growth are even higher than Oklahoma City’s very positive outlook. OKC has good upside in the Boeing center and currently in the Air force, but, with the war likely to wind down soon and the Republican’s leaving power look for little to no growth there and another round of base closings before too long. OKC could (and should) win more work with base closings, but there always is that huge threat that the Air Force could leave. Tulsa has Bizjet, Nordam and others all already in growth mode too. The American Airlines base (already the biggest in the world) is now focusing on outsourced work from airlines around the world. Tulsa has a big advantage.

Travel and tourism, OKC is beating Tulsa here, and badly, but, there’s also little upside to grow Oklahoma City’s advantage where Tulsa has a lot of new things happening to drive tourism growth. Tulsa is 5-10 years behind OKC now, and OKC needs to plan now to meet that, in my mind the conversion of the Cox center to a convention center needs to start to happen very soon (or a new convention center built) and OKC needs real river development or OKC will see itself get passed in the next 5 years. Tulsa is the winner from a growth perspective, but only a little and only if OKC doesn’t act.

Government. Not a growth industry and OKC is way, way too invested in it.

Education, With OU the OKC area is the clear winner. However, with new campuses for OU, OSU and NSU and big growth from TU, Tulsa is catching up, very fast.

High-tech. Tulsa with aerospace again and telecom and other existing high-tech companies is the clear leader and with new projects like OSU-Tulsa’s $90 million nano-tech lab Tulsa is pulling away.

Manufacturing. Not a growth industry, anywhere.

Call Centers, who wants them? And this is also a dying industry that both cities are too invested in, though a lot of Tulsa’s are already gone now. OKC may have a lot of pain left to feel here.

Overall, Oklahoma City had a great first half of the decade but is hitting a slight bit of a rough patch. A rough patch that will be overcome. Both cities have had lackluster growth over the last 20 years averaged out, Oklahoma City’s growth is easier to handle since it’s not so boom and bust like Tulsa’s is. Tulsa in the late 90’s was by some reports the second fastest growing city after Vegas, but then lost population for several years. The average is meager growth and an ugly experience to deal with. Oklahoma City growth, which before the last five years was nearly identacal to Tulsa's but being spread out is more healthy and manageable.

I see Tulsa outgrowing Oklahoma City for the next few years, at least as a metro area. After 2010 it will be interesting to see what happens as the energy sector has a likely cooling off period. I truly see Tulsa growing at a much faster clip after 2010 if it can avoid a meltdown again with energy and a meltdown is unlikely. Tulsa was just unlucky in how it diversified in the 90’s with all of it’s largest non-energy industries, High-tech, Telecom and Aerospace all taking a dive at the same time after 9/11. The growth Tulsa was hitting before 9/11 is coming back now and as energy fades off these need to take off again, and likely all will. Oklahoma City is too focused on government services which is likely to become more and more automated and outsourced. OKC big chance for huge growth and OKC's advantage over Tulsa in particular is in Medical Research, time will tell if that takes off, that has been predicted to be a hot sector for decades and really has never taken off overall, someday it will, but who knows when.

Thanks for that very insighful post. I don't agree with everything you say, but it's well thought out.

swake, your forgetting one thing. OKC has much more invested in infrastructure with MAPS. We are just now in the beginning stages of seeing private development as a result of MAPS. Don't forget about the new I-40 and the Oklahoma River area to explode as well. In the next few months, downtown population will double almost overnight. This are all catalytic events meaning that it will only propel and excellerate future growth.

That's three things, at least, but I digress.

Other than MAPs for Kids, which is great, what projects are just complete or nearing completetion that will have a near term impact greater than the $550 million worth of projects that are all just complete or nearing completion? Also, as for MAPs for kids, TPS has spent the last decade reconstructing the public schools using bond issues, most recently in a $162.2 million bond issue passed just a year ago. The city's other two districts, Jenks and Union have some the finiest facilities in the nation and need no help. MAPs for kids, while a fine endevor, does nothing to change the "growth" pattern between the cities.

Swake, you do have a good point regarding The Oklahoman. Quite honestly, it is more or less a city newspaper and needs to focus on such. I personally would prefer if they dropped "The Oklahoman" name altogether and revive the Oklahoma City Times. But that's a personal wish that may not see its fruition. We do not have a true city newspaper and The Oklahoman's home in Oklahoma City caters to that coverage, but it really shouldn't be a state newspaper.

But likewise, Oklahoma Magazine should really be called Tulsa Magazine. Both publications are the worst examples of unbiased coverage. I really wouldn't attack on the Oklahoma Gazette, and while the publication also should change its name to the Oklahoma City Gazette or OKC Gazette, the publication doesn't claim to be the state's independent weekly.

I do disagree somewhat in your observation that OKC is way too invested in government. That was the case, historically. However, the percentage of government employees compared to the private sector has decreased gradually, and Oklahoma City's leaders have been working to get away from landing government jobs with the exception of Tinker. Development on the Oklahoma River is waiting for its take-off once the 3-mile section relocation of I-40 is complete. But development along the river will be aided by the Native American Cultural Center, due for completion in 2009, the same year the 3-mile section of I-40 is due for completion. I honestly would develop until highway construction is finished. It would be too much of a mess.

Onto your most recent post. Metro never mentioned MAPS for Kids. Just MAPS. We consider them two seperate projects. In any case, why bring up Jenks and Union's school districts and their needing no help? Oklahoma City's Putnam City School District (which covers northwest OKC and Warr Acres) needs no assistance, nor does Edmond Public Schools (which also extends into northwest OKC), and Edmond is known for its outstanding facilities.

You are correct in that MAPS for Kids would really change the growth pattern between the two cities. That's not why we voted for MAPS for Kids. The idea behind the project (it's actually $750 million, BTW) is to both overhaul the Oklahoma City School District's 83 schools and help reverse urban sprawl. It will be some time before we see the real results of MAPS for Kids, as the project will wind down in 2009.

swake, as I posted initially, it seems to me that both Tulsa and OKC are doing things for the future growth of their cities. I have my personal goals for OKC (I am not at liberty to say what they are at this time) once I return from living in "Hellston" Texas, so that will be my contribution to the growth of OKC. Fierce competition would be good for both cities.

It is my understanding that MAPs for kids does send funding to other Oklahoma City school districts other than just OKC schools. Some searching online finds that 70% of MAPs for kids goes to OKC schools and the remaining 30% goes to the other 24 districts in the city. MAPS for Kids was a $500 million dollar issue that had a $180 million bond issue passed with it. In total it's about $530 million for OKC Schools.

As for Putnam City Schools, I have recently visited North High (I think it was North), and it looks nothing like a Jenks or a Union, sorry. It cannot be compared to Jenks or Union facilities (which can border on the stupid). My Kids go to Jenks and even the brand new Booker T Washington High (where I went to school in a building that no longer exists) has nothing on Jenks.

TPS's $162 million bond is only the latest one, there was a 2001 $140 million issue, $109 million passed in 1999, and $94 million in 1996. That's $505 million in the last 10 years spent on Tulsa schools.

The river is going to be very important for both cities. Tulsa has hundreds of millions in projects now

Yes, it does, but not because those districts need help. The package was propsed that way to swing a yes vote city-wide, and it worked. The 30% of funds go to school districts that educate children that live in Oklahoma City's city limits. Since practically all of PC's students live in northwest OKC, PC coincidentally got the largest share. But who is to say that Putnam City PS doesn't pass a large bond issue to build state-of-the-art facilities that rival districts such as Union? And who is to say that OKC won't pass more bond issues for OKC PS?

Public school funding is just something I wouldn't throw into this argument. Schools are constantly upgrading in both cities.

Well, if we aren't including MAPs for kids, then all MAPs projects are completed whereas Tulsa's Vision2025 projects are still being completed, thus one real reason for Tulsa to have more growth.

And if you dont think schools impact long term growth, you aren't in the real world. The Skirvin is a great project, but it's just a hotel. Schools matter.

Yeah, but MAPS began 10 years ago, and you are just barely getting started on 2025, so of course it's not over. MAPS III is not far off.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, if we aren't including MAPs for kids, then all MAPs projects are completed whereas Tulsa's Vision2025 projects are still being completed, thus one real reason for Tulsa to have more growth.

Exactly but the Oklahoma River just opened last year for phase one and is constantly under construction. As someone mentioned, wait until the new I-40 is relocated. Then this will be a boomtown. It doesn't make sense to developers to develop here now because of all the construction mess. Yes, you are correct, the MAPS projects are now completed (not MAPS for Kids like I was misquoted). And look at the investment we're seeing from them, over 1 billion dollars of PRIVATE money has been invested in the downtown area that have documented tiebacks to MAPS. I also didn't mention the recent revamping of the State Fairgrounds that will lure more and more horse show money to our tax coffers. Look at all the housing projects going up in Downtown OKC right now. Hundreds of millions of downtown housing alone! New hotels sprouting up, and more things yet to be announced (some of which I know but can't say anything yet). And someone else also mentioned the Native American Cultural Center which is under construction and also a several hundred million dollar project. This will be directly tied with the Smithsonian in Washington D.C. and will be an international destination. The future is bright in OKC. Yes, it's also glad to see Tulsa reviving again, but we've said it again, they are playing catch up. By the time the BOK Arena is open, OKC will have a major league NBA team and all kinds of new development downtown with a 24/7 streetlife. Tulsa, will just be getting started. The thing we all seem to be missing is that we're still ONE STATE, and should be working UNITED for the betterment of our state. A successful OKC and Tulsa benefit us all!

And if you dont think schools impact long term growth, you aren't in the real world. The Skirvin is a great project, but it's just a hotel. Schools matter.

I never said schools don't matter for long term growth. I said that there is no need to throw schools into the debate because school districts in both cities are constantly upgrading, or expanding, or passing new bond issues for new infrastructure and so forth.

And who said we were done after MAPS? Half of Vision 2025's projects are stuff we do in a regular bond issue. MAPS was a project on its own, funded with sales tax money. During MAPS, Oklahoma City passed two other major bond issues, one in 1995 totaling $220 million and another in 2000 totaling another $200 million, which didn't just involve street improvements, those to bond issues provided funding for new city parks, new playgrounds, new animal shelters, etc.

"Oklahoma" Magazine is a flippin' rag, with bad writing, bad editing and bad printing.

The only quality glossy magazine in the state is Oklahoma Today magazine.

The thing we all seem to be missing is that we're still ONE STATE, and should be working UNITED for the betterment of our state. A successful OKC and Tulsa benefit us all!

I second that, and I hope swake doesn't feel I'm trying to shoot him down. Just trying to give him my perspective and facts on OKC. I always felt that the more educated we are about each others cities, the more we try to work together, we can get this state moving forward a lot faster. Which is why I am very pleased that OKC C of C and Tulsa C of C is joining forces to work together. It's what I've been looking forward to for a long time.

Oklahoma Today is high quality, and doesn't show any bias toward either city, despite being published in OKC.

Either way, OKC will leave Tulsa in the dust as far as sheer population goes. Its in the middle of the state, divided by 2 major trans-continental corridors. Not to mention the reason Tulsa is seeing slightly better numbers than OKC this year is because they are playing catch up. Look at OKC's numbers the last few years. As someone said, they are building things we already have. With the Hornets or whatever NBA team we might have and the new downtown boulevard and Oklahoma River potential, we'll be a whole new city before Tulsa lands one major league team. Oh and by the way, we are the Capitol City too.

Capitol Cities:

Michigan - Lansing
California - Sacramento
Washington - Olympia
Oregon - Salem
New Mexico - Santa Fe

and so on...

Arguably, OKC is the center of business and government for Oklahoma, while Tulsa is the indisputed center for culture in Oklahoma.

Tulsa has fallen behind on itself, obviously, but with job growth that is THROUGH the roof right now, and a downtown with more Art Deco buildings than ANY city in America save Miami, Tulsa has potential, and I don't think it's very diplomatic for a highly competant Okc Talk moderator such as yourself to come on here and blast Tulsa.

So tell us... what did Tulsa do to you?

Soonerguru is right as far as Tulsa's internal problems are concerned. My relatives in Tulsa are even complaining the city's falling apart. And they've been in Tulsa for over 40 years.

Of course, the Old Guard are somewhat pissed off about the giant strides of progress being made. These are the same people that oppose TIFs for inspiring quality development and opposed the capitol improvement campaigns, and won that battle the first two times.

You can thank yer rellies for the state Tulsa has fallen into, do it for me at least.

:tiphat:

while Tulsa is the indisputed center for culture in Oklahoma.

eh...

Oklahoma City Museum of Art
National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Fred Jones, Jr. Museum of Art
International Photography Hall of Fame
Untitled: Art Space
IAO Gallery
The Land Run Monument
The Paseo Arts District
Festival of the Arts
The Noble Theatre at OKCMOA
Dead Center Film Festival
Lyric Theatre
Ballet Oklahoma
Canterbury Choral Society
OKC Philharmonic
Oklahoma City Theatre Company
Carpenter Square Theatre
The Pollard Theatre
The Sooner Theatre
Oklahoma City Repertory Theatre
Oklahoma Shakespeare in the Park
Oklahoma City University's renown arts programs


we are so starved for culture here...



I'll leave it to mranderson to correct your spelling.

Tulsa, since Vision2025 has passed a city sales tax issue, a city bond issue, and a county sales tax issue. Look for a river bond package in Tulsa to be voted in February. It won't include "The Channels" but will have at least the rest of the funding for 2-3 more low water dams, shoreline improvements and seed money for development projects at 21st St (the west bank) and next to the Aquarium in Jenks.

So Vision 2025 is hardly all that is going on.

Bricktown is an asset for OKC, downtown development there is at least 10 years ahead of Tulsa. I think that getting a NBA team will be a big deal for getting OKC (and Tulsa) on the map more nationally. But Tulsa’s downtown office market is better than OKCs and much larger.

But outside of downtown, your advantages as an urban city fade. Tulsa’s river is decades ahead of yours, even without all the new development. And Uptown/Midtown Tulsa is another world from Midtown OKC. It’s just not comparable. You are making good strides in midtown. But it’s no Utica Square or Brookside, and the gap is widening with Brookside going more and more upscale all the time with new developments. The Utica area is nearing completion on it’s second residential high-rise.

Oklahoma City has nothing like Riverparks, The Oklahoma River is a pale comparison and that gap is about to get a lot wider with current proposals and the upcoming vote on river improvements. For example, the proposal currently for the 21st St site on the river is from the Springfield based developer of Branson Landing and some Tulsa developers have purchased the land south of the Aquarium for a project call Water Walk. Each of these would dwarf all the development dollars that have been spent or are proposed to be spent on the Oklahoma River and each would be completed before I-40 is moved. And these are on top of The Aquarium, Riverwalk Crossing, King’s Landing and the massive half billion dollar Creek Casino project, all on the river.

And downtown Tulsa is closing the gap. For example, the East End project is progressing downtown. Washington DC based developers Global Development is going to close on the land for the bulk of the development in the next month or so and are close to signing a deal for the Drillers to move into a baseball stadium that is part of the proposal. The End End is going to need a TIFF, but that's going to be a no-brainer for development with 700 housing units, three hotels, a baseball stadium and 400,000 square feet of retail downtown.

And closer to the arena that is going up, the City is about to condemn the last parcel of land needed for a convention hotel next to the arena. The city wants a hotel open by the time the arena opens. A Current proposal for a Westin Hotel and 100 condos has problems with the developers demands that a city bus terminal be moved. Reportedly the city is talking to another developer for the site.

Tulsa’s convention center already dwarfs anything in Oklahoma City and while it is a little worn today, as soon as the arena is completed, the current arena will be converted to even more convention space and the current space with be upgraded. The city is also looking into buying Wiltel’s very high-tech 4 year old 15 story headquarters building downtown as a new city hall and leveling the city offices next to the arena and convention center as new land for development. A great city needs a great city hall, and right now Tulsa does NOT have that.

Hundreds of lofts from 2025 are started/about to start downtown in four buildings and the conversion of the top floors of the Philtower just completed.

And Tulsa’s universities are spending hundreds of millions in upgrades, much of it downtown at OSU-Tulsa, TCC and now the OSU Medical Center. But OU-Tulsa, TU, the non-downtown TCC campuses and NSU-BA are all undergoing massive construction campaigns.

Tulsa is keeping up with Oklahoma City right now, creating even more jobs over the last three years than Oklahoma City has, and all of this is still to come. And I didn’t even mention Stonewood/Bass Pro in BA, Tulsa Hills in west Tulsa, Smith Farm et all in Owasso or all the infill developments through midtown.

It’s all cyclical and we should want both cities to do well, but right now, Tulsa is the one that is booming and 2025 really has yet to make much of an impact at all, but it’s going to.
.

eh...

Oklahoma City Museum of Art
National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Fred Jones, Jr. Museum of Art
International Photography Hall of Fame
Untitled: Art Space
IAO Gallery
The Land Run Monument
The Paseo Arts District
Festival of the Arts
The Noble Theatre at OKCMOA
Dead Center Film Festival
Lyric Theatre
Ballet Oklahoma
Canterbury Choral Society
OKC Philharmonic
Oklahoma City Theatre Company
Carpenter Square Theatre
The Pollard Theatre
The Sooner Theatre
Oklahoma City Repertory Theatre
Oklahoma Shakespeare in the Park
Oklahoma City University's renown arts programs


we are so starved for culture here...



I'll leave it to mranderson to correct your spelling.

Philbrook and Gilcrease are far beyond anything in Oklahoma City, they truly are world class art centers. The Cowboy Hall of Fame is not and the OKCMOA is too new.

Tulsa Opera is a top regional opera and Tulsa Ballet is one the of top Ballet Companies in the world. American Theatre Company is the oldest professional theater company west of the Mississippi, and the Drunkard at the Spotlight Theater is the nations longest running play. And that’s just a start. Please, visit Philbrook or see Tulsa Ballet and then come back.

I never said that OKC was starved for the arts, but, you don’t have what Tulsa has. An example:

From the Tulsa Ballet Website:
In its first international tour in 2002, Tulsa Ballet was declared by the Portuguese national magazine Semanario “One of the best in the world.” The company has received two feature articles in Dance Magazine during the past seven years, has been featured in the New York Times , Pointe Magazine and Dance Europe among others.

Tulsa Ballet Golden Anniversary, 50 year anniversary, 1956-2006 (http://www.tulsaballet.org/inside_tulsa_ballet/history.htm)

As I said earlier in the thread, I sincerely hope Tulsa gets it together. We need both cities to improve remarkably.

Allow me to echo what was said about the East End area. It's still fledgling, but the young people in Tulsa who are remaking that area are great and have a solid vision.

I know many of them personally, and my fear (shared by them, too) is that the focus on the Channels project will overwhelm the positive developments in East Downtown Tulsa.

Were I mayor, I would be doing something significant to get housing in the east side of downtown. There already is a nucleus for development there, and it's truly organic and homegrown (unlike the corporate Disneyland feel of Bricktown).

Still, Tulsa has a LONG way to go, and its city government is dominated by sprawl advocates who live in the 71st and further south corridor of suburbia, which is dominated by chain restaurants and SUV drivers.

OKC is still an open canvas, but I like what I'm seeing from our city leadership -- which is miles ahead of Tulsa's -- and I'm loving the emphasis on serious in-fill projects.

OKC just feels more wide open than Tulsa -- and more welcoming to newcomers. Tulsa is like an inbred country club in many ways. For such a self-styled "cultural" city, there is a lot of exclusionary, backward thinking there. There's almost a small-town mentality, and there is a lot of negativity from the citizens. I hear it all the time from merchants, corporate people, government officials, etc.

I would love it if OKC had as many trees as Tulsa, but that's about it. Sure, a Utica-type place would be great, too. But I could do without the haughty arrogance of many of Tulsa's "leaders." Also, downtown Tulsa is as dead as a doornail right now and these same leaders don't seem to care much.

Please, visit Philbrook or see Tulsa Ballet and then come back.

I've been to the Philbrook, thank you. Have you been to the OKCMOA? It's probably a lot better than you imagine.

It's a fine place, very nice, just still on the small side with a sparce permanent collection. Give it time, and a ton of money it could someday be the equal. It does have the potential to be world class, it's not there yet.

As I said earlier in the thread, I sincerely hope Tulsa gets it together. We need both cities to improve remarkably.

Allow me to echo what was said about the East End area. It's still fledgling, but the young people in Tulsa who are remaking that area are great and have a solid vision.

I know many of them personally, and my fear (shared by them, too) is that the focus on the Channels project will overwhelm the positive developments in East Downtown Tulsa.

Were I mayor, I would be doing something significant to get housing in the east side of downtown. There already is a nucleus for development there, and it's truly organic and homegrown (unlike the corporate Disneyland feel of Bricktown).

Still, Tulsa has a LONG way to go, and its city government is dominated by sprawl advocates who live in the 71st and further south corridor of suburbia, which is dominated by chain restaurants and SUV drivers.

OKC is still an open canvas, but I like what I'm seeing from our city leadership -- which is miles ahead of Tulsa's -- and I'm loving the emphasis on serious in-fill projects.

OKC just feels more wide open than Tulsa -- and more welcoming to newcomers. Tulsa is like an inbred country club in many ways. For such a self-styled "cultural" city, there is a lot of exclusionary, backward thinking there. There's almost a small-town mentality, and there is a lot of negativity from the citizens. I hear it all the time from merchants, corporate people, government officials, etc.

I would love it if OKC had as many trees as Tulsa, but that's about it. Sure, a Utica-type place would be great, too. But I could do without the haughty arrogance of many of Tulsa's "leaders." Also, downtown Tulsa is as dead as a doornail right now and these same leaders don't seem to care much.



Tulsa’s leadership has changed, Tulsa had a disaster of a Mayor and two disastrous city councilors that fought constantly and pointlessly with that mayor. All are gone now and Kathy Taylor is a whole new game as mayor.