I think Oklahoma electricity rates are in the $80 to $90 per 1,000 KWH. Looks like Jacksonville is more around $114.

We also have our water tied to the electric here in Jax. The same company does it all (JEA is actually a City entity). According to the local paper most of our bill goes to pay $3 billion in debt on the water side.

i'm with you Kerry, JEA sucks!!

Back to topic.

I don't think our legislature, with the limited visionaries we have in congress, with will move forward with a commuter rail until the MAPS3 streetcar is up and running at least a year or two.

That's why I believe it will become more of a reality if there is a demonstration commuter train that runs for say a week. Let's put those visionaries on it and see how they like it. Then it will be easier to become a reality once the street car system is up and running and they will see how it will tie in to the over all system. Granted, you can't take our current legislature and give them rides because by the time they do this, it will be a whole other group.

Update from The Edmond Sun


Corridor study due in late summer
Edmond listed on 1 of 3 commuter routes

By Van Mitchell
Special to The Sun

EDMOND — City leaders should know later this summer the results of a study determining whether a commuter rail project is feasible for Edmond and Central Oklahoma.

The Association of Central Oklahoma Governments and project consultants with URS Corporation had its second and final webinar Wednesday afternoon on the Central Oklahoma Commuter Corridors Study.

The 18-month study sponsored by ACOG is designed to determine whether there is feasibility and support for commuter-rail service in central Oklahoma. The study is to be completed later this summer.

“This is a feasibility study,” said Holly Massie, special programs officer and project manager with ACOG. “The consultants are trying to determine the feasibility of it, the cost and whether there is public support for it. It (study) was really members of our local governments who were supportive of this.”

The Central Oklahoma Commuter Corridors Study considers various routes and modes of public transportation for moving people throughout Central Oklahoma, focusing on three specific corridors all overlapping in downtown Oklahoma City at the Santa Fe Intermodal Hub.

The North corridor extends 14 miles between Edmond and downtown Oklahoma City, the East corridor extends 10 miles from downtown Oklahoma City through Del City to Midwest City and Tinker Air Force Base and the South corridor extends 17 miles from downtown Oklahoma City through Moore to Norman and the University of Oklahoma.

“There are three corridors under review,” Massie said. “The consultants have done more detailed analysis. They have looked at cost, ridership and any major obstacles it might have. This program would be different from Amtrak, which goes state to state. This would go metro to metro.”

Massie said additionally, potential costs and technical feasibility has been assessed for each of the alternatives within the three corridors.

She said project consultants sought input from registrants regarding locally preferred alternatives and transit mode to assist in developing final recommendations.

Massie said part of that transit mode includes shuttle bus service from the trains.

- See more at: Corridor study due in late summer » Local News » The Edmond Sun (http://www.edmondsun.com/local/x1760081583/Corridor-study-due-in-late-summer#sthash.6v4TQBuG.dpuf)

I really hope they do this. Hopefully we will eventually get light-rail, but I guess baby steps are better than nothing. I am just worried this study will lead to another study or it won't go anywhere at all. It seems ODOT loves to do studies but when it comes time to build it, well........ that's another story.

Update from The Edmond Sun



I really hope they do this. Hopefully we will eventually get light-rail, but I guess baby steps are better than nothing. I am just worried this study will lead to another study or it won't go anywhere at all. It seems ODOT loves to do studies but when it comes time to build it, well........ that's another story.

Hopefully this ends with the formation of an RTA and commuter rail north south and east from Okc.

I really hope they do this. Hopefully we will eventually get light-rail, but I guess baby steps are better than nothing. I am just worried this study will lead to another study or it won't go anywhere at all. It seems ODOT loves to do studies but when it comes time to build it, well........ that's another story.

I'm pretty sure this would be independent of ODOT, and it seems that this is something the central governments are really pushing for.

Update from The Edmond Sun



I really hope they do this. Hopefully we will eventually get light-rail, but I guess baby steps are better than nothing. I am just worried this study will lead to another study or it won't go anywhere at all. It seems ODOT loves to do studies but when it comes time to build it, well........ that's another story.

The secret is not to let ODOT in on this. It needs to be funded via federal money and money from the cities that are to be on the routes. ODOT would just screw things up like they always do.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5

I'm pretty sure this would be independent of ODOT, and it seems that this is something the central governments are really pushing for.

Correct, this an ACOG project.

Regional Transit Dialogue | ACOG | Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (http://www.acogok.org/regional-transit-dialogue)

Here is the ACOG Youtube channel with lots of meeting videos.

https://www.youtube.com/user/acogok

I'm pretty sure this would be independent of ODOT, and it seems that this is something the central governments are really pushing for.That is a relief!

ODOT completes $75M sale of railroad track | www.krmg.com (http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/odot-completes-75m-sale-railroad-track/ngtqD/)

30 mph.... WOWZERS! lol

30 mph.... WOWZERS! lol

60 once upgrades are complete. but still not 300mph high speed rail.
will be interesting to see this progress. .I am just curious how much "traffic" it will really have.

I read that. ;-)

...and I agree with you about the "traffic".

Unless it is faster and comparable to paying for gas I do not see this getting much traffic at all.

All I want is a rail from Tulsa to Dallas.

if it went from downtown OKC to downtown Tulsa, even at 60MPH, I'd take it often for weekend getaways to Tulsa...

Trial passenger train service to start next year, linking Tulsa and OKC metros (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/trial-passenger-train-service-to-start-next-year-linking-tulsa-and-okc-metros) - KJRH Tulsa

if it went from downtown OKC to downtown Tulsa, even at 60MPH, I'd take it often for weekend getaways to Tulsa...

BNSF still controls the tracks that get it to downtown Tulsa and to Downtown OKC. the "Friends of the easter Flyer" page on facebook has posted BNSF contact information wanting folks to write to them saying they would love commuter rail to reach downtown in both cities. they post some interesting stuff.

Not sure how successful this will be unless it goes fully into the downtown areas of each respective city.

I read about this yesterday and was highly disappointed. Even at 60mph IMO it is a waste of time, it won't be used. I'd rather have the flexibility of a car. Now get that train going from downtown to downtown at least 100mph, and now we have something worth a damn.

I read about this yesterday and was highly disappointed. Even at 60mph IMO it is a waste of time, it won't be used. I'd rather have the flexibility of a car. Now get that train going from downtown to downtown at least 100mph, and now we have something worth a damn.

If it's a work trip, may very well be worth it. Lots of work that could be done on the train that can't be done driving to and fro.

If it's a work trip, may very well be worth it. Lots of work that could be done on the train that can't be done driving to and fro.

I was so incredibly productive (well, reading MOJO magazine, but that's productive, just not work-wise) when I rode the train for 25-30 minutes each way each day when I was in Chicagoland, so yeah, an hour not having to worry about all the slow-a** trucks passing each other going uphill every 5 minutes and the construction and and and ..... would be wonderful. We'd probably go to Tulsa more often than we do (yearly, pretty much) if there was rail.

Yes, 60 is much better than 30. At 30mph, passengers are gonna run out of stuff to do. BNSF needs to allow rail rights on their tracks, otherwise, it's plain pointless.

Committee Recommends Rail Transit Options for Central Oklahoma (http://acogblog.org/2014/08/05/rtd-regional-transit-lpa-corridors-rail-streetcar/)


Since 2009, the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments’ (ACOG) Regional Transit Dialogue (RTD) has been exploring the feasibility of expanding regional public transportation in Central Oklahoma. Comprised of leaders from the public and private sectors, a 37-member Steering Committee chaired by Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett, has worked with ACOG and project consultants URS on the $1.25 million Commuter Corridors Study to further analyze three prospective transit corridors identified in the 2005 Regional Fixed Guideway Study. On Thursday, July 17th, the RTD Steering Committee formalized its consensus on locally preferred alternatives (LPAs)—the favored transit routes and modes per corridor stemming from study analysis, public input, and community preferences.

http://acogblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/lpasystemmap.png?w=479&h=744 (http://acogblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/acog_lpa_system.pdf)

Regional Transit Dialogue RTD ACOG MPO Region Central Oklahoma OKC Oklahoma City Edmond Norman Village Nichols Hills Edmond Norman Midwest City MWC Del City Tinker Air Force Base TAFB Commuter Rail Streetcar
Click to view a full regional transit locally preferred alternatives map

The North Corridor, connecting downtown Edmond with the downtown Oklahoma City Santa Fe Intermodal Hub, was recommended to be served by commuter rail. Existing BNSF right-of-way would be utilized wherever possible along the 14-mile alignment. Additionally, a five-mile extension of the MAPS3 streetcar is recommended to run along Classen Boulevard from NW 10th and Walker Avenue to provide a connection to a future commuter rail station near the Chesapeake Energy campus. Capital costs for commuter rail are estimated between $260 million and $360 million, with the streetcar route expansion estimated between $270 million and $370 million. Ongoing operating and maintenance costs are estimated at $5 million/year for the commuter rail and $2.5 million/year for the streetcar extension.

The South Corridor recommendation would connect the downtown Oklahoma City Santa Fe Intermodal Hub and Norman extending to State Highway 9 via commuter rail. Existing BNSF right-of-way would be used as available along the 17-mile route. The combined alignments of the North and South Corridors would allow for a one-seat ride between Norman and Edmond. Capital costs for this commuter rail between Norman and Oklahoma City are estimated between $310 million and $410 million, with an estimated annual operating and maintenance cost of $5.5 million/year.

The East Corridor recommendation would connect Tinker Air Force Base, Midwest City and Del City to the downtown Oklahoma City Santa Fe Intermodal Hub via streetcar and would need to include development of an internal circulator on Tinker Air Force Base. Capital costs for this 9-mile streetcar are estimated between $320 million and $440 million. This alignment would make use of abandoned railroad right-of-way in Midwest City and use Reno Avenue to provide direct access to the intermodal hub for connections to the MAPS3 streetcar and future commuter rail services to Edmond and Norman.

At present time, funding has not been secured to build and launch these locally preferred alternatives. However, the RTD Steering Committee’s next step is to address the structure and formation of a regional transit authority—a new entity which could provide governance to expand and operate a regional transit system for Central Oklahoma. A regional transit authority would be created under the framework provided by HB 2480, signed into law by Governor Fallin on May 22nd.

While it could be at least 20 years before a fully operational regional transit system is established in Central Oklahoma, the RTD Steering Committee’s leadership and foresight have strategically positioned the region for a prosperous and competitive future through high-capacity transit investments.

Awesome!

I wished so badly to have the Tinker portion when I worked at Tinker for so many years.

While I like the idea of a streetcar extension going up Classen, I would almost rather incentivize CPK to move downtown and save those capital costs... pipe dream I know.

Incentivize CHK to move downtown and leave a gaping hole in OKC? the Belle Isle/Penn Square/CHK/CC-NHP area is huge…outside of Downtown and Tinker, it is probably the most important area of the city, particularly because of its proximity to Nichols Hills and the bridge it creates to the entire NW side. Honestly, it's the first thing of all of the recommendations that they should build, because everything on that path is far more ripe for development than just about anywhere in the city.

Kind of sad to see they didn't mention anything about Capitol Hill…

All in all, the total is $1.16B to $1.58B

How much of that tab would the Feds be willing to pick up?

Bill Information for HB 2480 (http://www.oklegislature.gov/BillInfo.aspx?Bill=hb2480&Session=1400) in case anyone is interested in the bill mentioned towards the end of the article.

SW Aviator and I have worked on the two bills for several years. We are thrilled that it finally made it through. We had UN Agenda 21 people coming after us thinking that it was some sort of world conspiracy.

The initial bill gave us the ability to form an RTA, but it wasn't sophisticated enough to tailor the district boundaries to the constituents that would most likely need the service and consequently vote for it.

This is all an extension of Bob's efforts to install commuter rail and our successes with MAPS 3 streetcar. Mayor Cornett is the leader who helped organize and lead the initial discussions with the other cities into fruition. We now have support by Edmond, Moore, Norman, Midwest City and Del City. Now Yukon wants to be actively involved.

Don't be surprised if the next two iterations of MAPS are made up in large part by transit initiatives with votes occuring simultaneously in other suburban cities to enable these efforts to come to fruition.

Regarding the comments regarding congestion and attractiveness. I agree with most, if not all of those comments. But we are not building this system for the city of today, we are building this for the city of the future. A very bright future.

Kind of sad to see they didn't mention anything about Capitol Hill…


Capitol Hill is in the plans.... For both a commuter rail stop and expanded streetcar. The two modes intersect at the commuter rail stop and interfacing with the Wheeler District via streetcar has been discussed by the Steering Committee.

Don't be surprised if the next two iterations of MAPS are made up in large part by transit initiatives with votes occurring simultaneously in other suburban cities to enable these efforts to come to fruition.

This is incredibly exciting.

And it all, when finished, could make MAPS 1-3 look like child's play in terms of how it impacts the metro economically and growth wise.

SW Aviator and I have worked on the two bills for several years. We are thrilled that it finally made it through. We had UN Agenda 21 people coming after us thinking that it was some sort of world conspiracy.

The initial bill gave us the ability to form an RTA, but it wasn't sophisticated enough to tailor the district boundaries to the constituents that would most likely need the service and consequently vote for it.

This is all an extension of Bob's efforts to install commuter rail and our successes with MAPS 3 streetcar. Mayor Cornett is the leader who helped organize and lead the initial discussions with the other cities into fruition. We now have support by Edmond, Moore, Norman, Midwest City and Del City. Now Yukon wants to be actively involved.

Don't be surprised if the next two iterations of MAPS are made up in large part by transit initiatives with votes occuring simultaneously in other suburban cities to enable these efforts to come to fruition.

Regarding the comments regarding congestion and attractiveness. I agree with most, if not all of those comments. But we are not building this system for the city of today, we are building this for the city of the future. A very bright future.

I should also point out that regular OKC Talk poster "Hutch" is also on the Steering Committee for RTD. He represents Norman in large part with Mayor Cindy Rosenthal. Nobody has worked harder to sell the idea and vision for a Regional Transit Authority more than Hutch. He is an authority on these matters. There are a few more anonymous posters on here actively involved in these issues as well.

One of the exciting things about that ACOG email is that it seems that the new transportation division planner is excited about this. That was a very positive email and the guy seems excited. We haven't had many "paid" people involved in these processes other than consultants and politicians that actively advocate or display some passion.

I read about this yesterday and was highly disappointed. Even at 60mph IMO it is a waste of time, it won't be used. I'd rather have the flexibility of a car. Now get that train going from downtown to downtown at least 100mph, and now we have something worth a damn.

I go to Tulsa for work at least 3 or 4 sometimes 10 times a month and would definitely use this and rent a car for the day/trip. I also have a bunch of friends that I routinely visit up there that could pick me up at the station if all else fails. I can't be the only person in either city in this situation.

Also, the drive gets very repetitive and creates 4 hours of productivity that I lose per trip. Even if it takes a little longer, being able to work on the train and not deal with driving would present enough of an advantage for me to use it. It does definitely need to go from downtown to downtown though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you factor in not putting miles on your vehicle, not having to find a parking space, and being able to read a book/play games on your phone without running people off the road, the trip taking an extra 20 min or so isn't that bad.

Awesome!

I wished so badly to have the Tinker portion when I worked at Tinker for so many years.

While I like the idea of a streetcar extension going up Classen, I would almost rather incentivize CPK to move downtown and save those capital costs... pipe dream I know.

Spreading expensive capitol costs all over low-density sprawl is what gave us a freeway system we can't afford to maintain. Some lessons are never learned.

Spreading expensive capitol costs all over low-density sprawl is what gave us a freeway system we can't afford to maintain. Some lessons are never learned.

What are you saying here?

For the 18,000,000 th time he is letting us know he hates sprawl. Now we know how he feels. LOL

For the 18,000,000 th time he is letting us know he hates sprawl. Now we know how he feels. LOLI'm still not sure though.... Part of me wants to see he likes large freeways and part of me doesn't. I just can't seem to figure it out.

It's almost like how a ton of people on this board question whether I like big highways or not. It's a just a tough call to make. ;)

Bump so JTF can see this…I'm still really curious what exactly he was trying to say.

Spreading expensive capitol costs all over low-density sprawl is what gave us a freeway system we can't afford to maintain. Some lessons are never learned.
Kerry, why do you command this again?

Infrastructure has a cost per distance. The fewer people there are along that infrastructure the more it cost per person to operate and maintain it. In many cases, that cost is more than the individual is able to afford so the funding short fall has to be made up from other sources. In the case of the interstate freeway system, users only pay half the direct cost and the other half comes out of the general fund. In the case of a well planned rail system, development along mass transit lines generate enough tax revenue to fund the operation and maintenance of the rail system, but when you start spreading that rail system across low density sprawl you reproduce the same situation the highway systems is failing at. Is there going to be enough density on the way to Classen Curve to cover the capitol cost of providing service to Classen Curve? If not, then why the hell do it?

Here is what I find ironic, the usual OKCTalk suspects who decried mass transit as requiring a subsidy and would thus be a waste of money ARE THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE who are happy expanding rail into low density areas which insures the funding short fall. Go figure.

Here is what I find ironic, the usual OKCTalk suspects who decried mass transit as requiring a subsidy and would thus be a waste of money ARE THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE who are happy expanding rail into low density areas which insures the funding short fall. Go figure.

Care to point out who some of those people are? It seems to me those who are and have always been a fan of the street-car downtown are also a fan of the street car out to these particular areas.


Infrastructure has a cost per distance. The fewer people there are along that infrastructure the more it cost per person to operate and maintain it. In many cases, that cost is more than the individual is able to afford so the funding short fall has to be made up from other sources. In the case of the interstate freeway system, users only pay half the direct cost and the other half comes out of the general fund. In the case of a well planned rail system, development along mass transit lines generate enough tax revenue to fund the operation and maintenance of the rail system, but when you start spreading that rail system across low density sprawl you reproduce the same situation the highway systems is failing at. Is there going to be enough density on the way to Classen Curve to cover the capitol cost of providing service to Classen Curve? If not, then why the hell do it?

So is your thought to wait for the high density development to come about and THEN bring the mass transit?

This is apples to oranges…the interstates were built to/through absolutely nothing. The street car being expanded in the core is actually going to other established locations. Yes they may currently be low density, but just how are you going to entice people to get away from the car and move toward high-density development if you show no commitment to making it feasible to live without a car?

Do you think TOD is not going to happen along this route?

This is such a confusing thing for me to hear you say because it sounds as if you're advocating that we do nothing to further public transit in this city seeing as the downtown area is barely dense enough to warrant such a thing, let alone anything outside of those borders.

So is your thought to wait for the high density development to come about and THEN bring the mass transit?

This is apples to oranges…the interstates were built to/through absolutely nothing. The street car being expanded in the core is actually going to other established locations. Yes they may currently be low density, but just how are you going to entice people to get away from the car and move toward high-density development if you show no commitment to making it feasible to live without a car?

Do you think TOD is not going to happen along this route?

This is such a confusing thing for me to hear you say because it sounds as if you're advocating that we do nothing to further public transit in this city seeing as the downtown area is barely dense enough to warrant such a thing, let alone anything outside of those borders.

Don't get me wrong, empirical evidence proves that with rail it almost is a 'build it and they will come' situation, but if it gets built to Classen Curve is CHK all of a sudden going to build a thousand residential units around their station? I don't think so. However, if the line is extended to into Capitol Hill I do think it will spur residential development? I think it will because rail based development doesn't just 'steal' development from the suburban fringe, it makes development possible that wouldn't be viable anywhere else for the simple reason that parking is not required.

Let me add - 1.8 miles from downtown Capitol Hill and 5.5 miles to Classen Curve. That means to recover the capitol costs development along Classen would have to run 3X more than to Capitol Hill. Does anyone seriously see that happening?

Finally, the OKCTalk usual suspects know who they are. If you have to wonder if you are a member of the 'usual suspects' you aren't :).

Going to Classen Curve did strike me as a very big step. Honestly I don't care so much about connecting Chesapeake and Classen Curve. I know those are big areas right now, but I don't know that a lone streetcar line connecting it to downtown will be that beneficial. It does connect to Penn Square Mall, though, giving downtown residents access to a huge amount of retail that they wouldn't have otherwise.

Maybe, maybe not. But you're looking at this as a one-sum game rather than a multi-sum game.

You're taking the position that the only destination for urban centers is the absolutely most dense area. In reality 63rd and Western will and should always be a destination, even it's not preeminent. Realize that a lot of people will continue to work at CHK/Mid-First, and people that otherwise drive there right now, will be able to live downtown and support that culture while maintaing or applying for a job at 2 of OKC's very most important companies. There is plenty of potential for fantastic urban development on this route. Classen Blvd alone has the potential to be among the best streets in all of the state with the right vision…having the street-car truck down this line will likely promote quite a bit of demolition of bad development in favor of multi-story mixed-use, which would greatly enhance the walkability of a wide-swath of single family homes in and around this part of town.

If access to an employer base was the driving factor a company in lay-off mode would be at the bottom of the list and OUHSC and Capitol Complex would be way at the top. The thing is though that unless CHK, OUHSC, and the Capitol want to rethink their position on urban design they shouldn't even be considered. Every mass transit rider starts and ends their trip as a pedestrian.

In my opinion.... It's not so much as connecting to Classen Curve or CHK, as it is the areas that are along this route to get there. Going up Classen even 1.7 miles would make a bigger impact than going to Capitol Hill in 1.7 miles.

If access to an employer base was the driving factor a company in lay-off mode would be at the bottom of the list and OUHSC and Capitol Complex would be way at the top. The thing is though that unless CHK, OUHSC, and the Capitol want to rethink their position on urban design they shouldn't even be considered. Every mass transit rider starts and ends their trip as a pedestrian.

CHK hasn't been in lay-off mode for a good minute, and MidFirst is in expansion mode. And those are hardly the only two employers along the route. It's one of the most important areas of commerce in OKC.

Considering how poorly downtown scores in urban design on a regular basis, would you just as soon us not build the thing at all and wait until we have all of our ducks in a row?

Are you going to ignore the potential of Western Ave completely? Are you going to dismiss the reality that there are several major schools/churches in this general direction. And will you also continue to ignore the reality that many people living downtown currently drive up to this area of town for a host of reasons including food, work, play, and shopping, and that this area, due to its proximity to some of OKC's richest neighborhoods and biggest business, will always maintain a level of high-quality retail/restaurants.

And no…plenty of mass transit riders start and end their trips as automobile drivers or even more prevalently then that, bicycle riders.

The Classen streetcar line was estimated to cost between $270 and $370 million. That's a good chunk of change. As you said, the development potential along Classen is incredible. I do wonder if running one line way out by itself is the best way to create that development, though.

I'm a big fan of Western Ave. But this isn't Western Ave. Classen has almost ZERO urban fabric. It's completely auto-dominated. Who exactly is ignoring reality here?

who exactly is "planning" the streetcar route?

I'm a big fan of Western Ave. But this isn't Western Ave. Classen has almost ZERO urban fabric. It's completely auto-dominated. Who exactly is ignoring reality here?

Where did I say Classen has urban fabric?

If you took the same amount of streetcar track and placed it along 23rd between MLK and Shepard Mall, it would be nothing short of transformational for that corridor. I'm struggling to see how a route to CHK would give us more bang for the buck.

The proposed streetcar line from downtown to 63rd is part of ACOG's Commuter Corridors Study. URS Corporation analyzed several different transit modes and corridors for providing commuter transit service between downtown, north Oklahoma City and Edmond, including Commuter Rail, Streetcar, Light Rail and BRT. Based on a number of factors, including ridership, cost and feasibility, the Steering Committee decided that Commuter Rail was the best solution. However, the modeling showed that there was significant ridership demand along an alternative corridor from downtown north along Classen to 63rd that would not be served by the Commuter rail option alone. So, the Steering Committee decided to include the streetcar line extension from downtown to 63rd along with the Commuter Rail option as the Locally Preferred Alternative for the North Corridor. In combination, the two rail transit modes will provide the most effective commuter transit solution, regardless of the fact that there are areas of lower density development along both of the corridors. The decision involved whether or not to include a streetcar line along that specific corridor as part of the LPA or not as part of a future commuter rail transit system.

Regional transit systems are typically developed by a regional transit authority created to represent specific local municipalities. The RTA operates within a specifically created regional transit district using funding derived through a dedicated local revenue source (typically sales tax) from within the RTD. So, the cities being served by the system are all funding its development and operation through local tax revenues collected from within the RTD, and the transit services being provided operate only within the RTD from where the revenues are generated. Ideally, the boundaries of the RTD and its transit service lines are created in order to serve all of the major population and employment centers throughout the region, as well as to maximize the capture of sales tax revenues for funding the system. The fact that there are pockets of low density development within the boundary of the RTD is not the single determining factor for developing transit service lines, especially rail transit.

From a ridership and farebox perspective, it might make sense to only develop and operate rail transit systems within and along areas of the highest population densities. However, cost and feasibility restraints do not always allow for development of a "perfect" corridor and there will almost always be areas of lower density within the system, especially as it initially develops. But that can be a good thing, as it allows for greater opportunities for transit oriented development, which in turn creates more future sales tax potential for increased funding for the system. Remember, it's the dedicated local revenue source that is primarily responsible for funding the system and not farebox receipts. As long as there is significant ridership demand at critical points along and at each end of a transit service line, it may very well be a viable component of the transit system whether or not it passes through areas of lower density.

If you exclude rail transit service to certain areas of Oklahoma City, and to Norman, Edmond, Moore, Midwest City and Del City simply because the service lines pass through some areas of low density, then you might as well just forget the idea of an RTA, RTD and a regional transit system and simply allow COTPA to continue to operate a very limited and ineffective local transit system within the core areas of Oklahoma City using non-dedicated money from the City's general fund. And we all know just how successful that has been.

"Are you going to ignore the potential of Western Ave completely? Are you going to dismiss the reality that there are several major schools/churches in this general direction. And will you also continue to ignore the reality that many people living downtown currently drive up to this area of town for a host of reasons including food, work, play, and shopping, and that this area, due to its proximity to some of OKC's richest neighborhoods and biggest business, will always maintain a level of high-quality retail/restaurants."

There are tons of places in the city have lots of schools and retail. Are you asserting that if it has these things, those corridors are good candidates for medium to high-density transit? That's what I'm getting at.

Not just those things, but yes, that's a major factor. The difference between 63rd/Western and Memorial/Penn or NW Expressway/Hefner Parkway is everything in between.

Classen is really only half a billion dollars away from being incredibly walkable. The Francis Apartments could fit on almost any lot fronting Classen between 23rd and NW Expressway.

Most of the buildings would be pretty easy to raze and build with better urban design principles without being $25 Million buildings. There's just been no reason to do so right now. A street-car and general connectivity of OKC's urban core will do such a thing.

If you took the same amount of streetcar track and placed it along 23rd between MLK and Shepard Mall, it would be nothing short of transformational for that corridor. I'm struggling to see how a route to CHK would give us more bang for the buck.

This is one of the few Embark routes in the entire city that actually does what it's supposed to. Not that I don't agree with you that the street car would be good here but there's not a whole lot of space for it when you consider how congested 23rd is and will always be due to the capitol being at one end of the spectrum.

I also don't think there is as much transformative potential on this stretch simply because portions of this stretch are 1. already in good shape (mainly between Western and Broadway see: The Rise, Cheever's, Cottages other developments that are well on their way to happening) and 2. Because OCU and Big-Box stores make up large swaths of this route, it would take far more resources (both power and money) for these areas to become urban centers.

Danziger Straße und Prenzlauer Allee - Berlin, Deutschland

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.539145,13.424337,3a,75y,110.14h,78.8t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siw6aTPc9PvvdK4KzHCvPpA!2e0

NW 36th Street and Classen Boulevard - OKC, Oklahoma, USA

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.507763,-97.534307,3a,75y,345.95h,86.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbK51zv7Zh2z4sFi-5rLThw!2e0

who exactly is "planning" the streetcar route?

Our committee is planning MAPS 3. The ACOG Committee came up with this larger system plan and is applying it to us. I agree about the density comments regarding Classen versus Western. I do suspect that Classen is going to change. This sets us up for rapid streetcar on NW Expressway.

Agree about 23rd street. It would be transformational. Keep in mind that these LPA's are generated by commuter data, not the more sophisticsted arguments being made here. The Feds use car data to rate transit corridors. Its kind of sickening in some ways.