View Full Version : Sonics to OKC Looking More Likely



soonerguru
11-13-2006, 01:27 PM
From today's New York Times:

As Sonics Pack to Leave Town, Seattle Shrugs

SEATTLE, Nov. 12 — Empowered by a wave of venture capital, a hiring boom and pride in its homegrown billionaires, this city has decided it no longer needs a mediocre professional basketball team to feel good about itself.

On Election Day, residents rebuffed their once-beloved Seattle SuperSonics, voting overwhelmingly for a ballot measure ending public subsidies for professional sports teams.

The owners, who bought the Sonics in October for $350 million from Howard Schultz, the founder of Starbucks, had warned that the team would leave unless the city provided a new arena.

The vote delighted Citizens for More Important Things, a group that, with the help of a statewide health care union, spent $60,000 to sponsor the initiative. Other cities “may be so desperate to lure tourists there that they have to overpay for an N.B.A. team,” said Chris Van Dyk, a founder of the group. “Seattle doesn’t have to lure anybody.”

Mr. Van Dyk’s priorities are schools, transportation projects and health care, and he openly disdains wealthy people who buy professional teams, pay huge salaries to players and then demand handouts. Owners who threaten to take their teams elsewhere, Mr. Van Dyk said, are no better than “the neighborhood crack cocaine dealer.”

Told of Mr. Van Dyk’s comments, Clayton I. Bennett of Oklahoma City, chairman of the group that owns the Sonics, sighed.

Seattle “turned its back on the N.B.A.,” Mr. Bennett said in a telephone interview, and gave up its chance to build a “multipurpose” arena suitable for basketball, hockey and conventions.

“I’m not saying it’s the most important thing or the only thing, but I think professional sports are an important component to the overall economy and quality of life in any marketplace,” Mr. Bennett said. “It’s about flying the flag of the city nationally and globally.”

The vote last week guarantees that the Sonics will leave their current home, KeyArena, in 2010, he said. The team may move to the Seattle suburbs and plans to talk to the State Legislature about that in coming weeks, but most people here think Mr. Bennett and his partners will move the team to Oklahoma City.

Even without the Sonics, Seattle would still have professional baseball and football teams, the Mariners and the Seahawks.

Antistadium sentiment was also reflected in Sacramento, where voters rejected a sales tax increase to pay for a new arena for the Kings, the basketball team there.

Residents and elected officials here have gone back and forth on financing for sports facilities. In 1995, voters narrowly rejected a sales tax to finance a baseball stadium for the Mariners. But after the team had a record season, the Legislature decided that the public would pay for most of a new stadium, Safeco Field, which ultimately cost more than $500 million.

In 1997, Paul Allen, a founder of Microsoft and one of the city’s billionaires, sponsored a statewide campaign that persuaded voters to commit $300 million to replace the Kingdome for the Seahawks. In return, Mr. Allen bought the team and put $100 million into a new field.

Last season, the team went to the Super Bowl for the first time, and Mr. Allen credited boisterous fans for victories at Qwest Field.

Owners of professional teams have long argued that arenas and stadiums increase economic development, jobs and tourism. With some economists challenging that view, the owners have developed a new argument: that a team enhances a city’s social status, said David J. Olson, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Washington.

Seattle is not buying it.

“Citizens in Seattle look around and see Microsoft and Boeing doing fabulously, the Port of Seattle is booming and trade with China is going to define this city’s existence for the next 50 years,” Professor Olson said. “Seattle has said, We can be a big-league city, we can be an international city, without kowtowing to professional sports franchises.”

The Sonics were Seattle’s first professional team and first love, especially after they won a National Basketball Association championship in 1979. But the team’s record, aside from a playoff run in 2004, has been middling for years.

KeyArena, the smallest of any N.B.A. team, was renovated in 1995 with $75 million from taxpayers.

Public sentiment turned against the Sonics last winter when Mr. Schultz, the Starbucks chairman, demanded that the state provide $200 million to refurbish the city-owned arena. The team would have contributed $18 million.

It did not help the Sonics that on the morning of last week’s vote, a local newspaper heralded a deal to build a privately financed headquarters for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation near the Sonics’ home.

The foundation, which gives billions of dollars to improve global health and public education, has paid $50 million for the land, will build three office buildings and will pay $1.7 million for traffic improvements. The city’s main financial commitment is to build a $15.3 million parking garage, which it will own.

To many Sonics fans, the rejection of sports financing proves that old, laid-back Seattle has been crushed by elitist Prius-driving do-gooders.

To say there is “no cultural value” in the Sonics is “ludicrous,” said Paul Merrill, a 34-year-old stand-up comedian who was 7 when the Sonics won the championship. Yet even Mr. Merrill, who helps run Supersonicsoul, “the Sonics blog for the Sonics people,” finds it hard to justify public spending on a new arena, an attitude reflected in a joke he tells in his comedy routine.

As a big basketball fan, Mr. Merrill says, he should come up with 200 million reasons why the city should pay for a $200 million arena: Where else can he buy a $7 pretzel? And, sure, that money could build housing for the homeless, but can homeless people dunk?

The real punch line, Mr. Merrill said, is that even he can think of only seven “reasons” to keep the Sonics in Seattle.

Karried
11-13-2006, 01:51 PM
Sweet!!

Bring it on.. OKC SuperSonics - yeah baby...

Easy180
11-13-2006, 02:14 PM
Reminds me of an ancient proverb

"City with too much entertainment should give city with not enough entertainment one of their 3 pro sports team's"

BricktownGuy
11-13-2006, 02:38 PM
Excellent, with a capital E.

hipsterdoofus
11-13-2006, 03:13 PM
I don't see how this means they are more likely to come to OKC. I heard Kelly Ogle comment on it earlier today and I agree with him...the NBA is not likely to up and pull out of such a big market. More than likely one of the suburbs will step up to the plate and the sonics will stay in that area, just not in Seattle proper...

mranderson
11-13-2006, 03:20 PM
I don't see how this means they are more likely to come to OKC. I heard Kelly Ogle comment on it earlier today and I agree with him...the NBA is not likely to up and pull out of such a big market. More than likely one of the suburbs will step up to the plate and the sonics will stay in that area, just not in Seattle proper...

That is the only hope of the Sonics staying in Washington. However, the people of Bellingham and the other cities mentioned have had plenty of opportunity to see them. Question is... Are they?

Pete
11-13-2006, 03:21 PM
^^^

This is true but Bennett was recently quoted as saying that any new arena deal would have to include "significant tax incentives".

A suburb typically doesn't have those types of resources, which means it would have to come from the state and there is almost no chance that would ever get passed.

Patrick
11-13-2006, 03:35 PM
And a suburb isn't going to have the money to build a world class arena, one of the nicest in that nation. Look for the Hornets to remain in OKC one more season, then for the Sonics to move to OKC.

Pete
11-13-2006, 03:37 PM
One of the cool things about getting a permanent NBA team would be there would likely be signficant upgrades to the Ford Center, at least in the longer term.

Patrick
11-13-2006, 03:43 PM
One of the cool things about getting a permanent NBA team would be there would likely be signficant upgrades to the Ford Center, at least in the longer term.

Fortunately, the Hornets are already making us do some of these improvement projects. Hopefully it will only continue with a permanent team here.

One project I still think needs to be addressed in the Ford Center, is the sound. There are still some areas in the crowd, where it's extremely hard to hear.

And I'd like to see us paint the inside of the Ford Center, the colors of our new team. Right now, the concrete is drab.

jbrown84
11-13-2006, 07:45 PM
There were some less than subtle blows to OKC in that article.


...this city has decided it no longer needs a mediocre professional basketball team to feel good about itself.


Other cities “may be so desperate to lure tourists there that they have to overpay for an N.B.A. team,”

SpectralMourning
11-13-2006, 07:50 PM
Fortunately, the Hornets are already making us do some of these improvement projects. Hopefully it will only continue with a permanent team here.

One project I still think needs to be addressed in the Ford Center, is the sound. There are still some areas in the crowd, where it's extremely hard to hear.

And I'd like to see us paint the inside of the Ford Center, the colors of our new team. Right now, the concrete is drab.

Highly agreed, Patrick. Every time I visit the Ford Center, I have those exact same thoughts. Hopefully those updates will be on the list soon!

Kerry
11-13-2006, 08:09 PM
Hornets to KC, Soncis to OKC, Kings to ?

BDP
11-14-2006, 12:40 PM
There were some less than subtle blows to OKC in that article.

Yeah, but not entirely inaccurate. OKC does need an NBA team for prestige, commerce, and confidence more than Seattle does. The reality is that Oklahoma City does have to manufacture itself as an attraction more so than most cities. The reason that Oklahoma City is getting better is because many have put their pride aside and realized that this is the truth. There's nothing wrong with it, especially if it works.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say we'd be "overpaying". If the Sonics or any other NBA team come to Oklahoma City, it will be one of the best bargains in the league for the city and for the owners.

metro
11-14-2006, 03:22 PM
One project I still think needs to be addressed in the Ford Center, is the sound. There are still some areas in the crowd, where it's extremely hard to hear.

Not sure where everyone has been. These announcements of improvements have already been made and posted before. The new video and sound system should be in place by February.

Spartan
11-14-2006, 03:38 PM
You are rediculous.

Patrick
11-14-2006, 04:50 PM
Not sure where everyone has been. These announcements of improvements have already been made and posted before. The new video and sound system should be in place by February.

Excuse me, for living in an OR the last 8 weeks. Some of us don't get out and hear the real news very often.

y_h
11-15-2006, 07:59 AM
Fortunately, the Hornets are already making us do some of these improvement projects. Hopefully it will only continue with a permanent team here.

One project I still think needs to be addressed in the Ford Center, is the sound. There are still some areas in the crowd, where it's extremely hard to hear.

And I'd like to see us paint the inside of the Ford Center, the colors of our new team. Right now, the concrete is drab.

During my recent visits to the Ford Center, one of the first things I noticed was the neutrality of the interior finishes, i.e. the virtual lack of color (other than the red design built into the floor of the street level concourse). It seems to me that this was done on purpose so that the ultimate finish-out would incorporate the colors and design elements of its primary big-league tenant. Don't get me wrong, the facility is very nice and certainly has a number of state-of-the-art features that would be the envy of a lot of big-league arenas, however there's another level which this facility also has the ability to reach without a substantial overhaul. Paint and tile will accomplish most of these ends quite well. The upcoming upgrades to the video and audio systems will really kick things up a notch. Some more color on the concourses and in the arena itself will make the place look dynamite.

SoonerDave
11-15-2006, 08:35 AM
Citizens in Seattle look around and see Microsoft and Boeing doing fabulously, the Port of Seattle is booming and trade with China is going to define this city’s existence for the next 50 years

Let's see - Boeing's corporate headquarters left Seattle three or four years ago for Chicago, and good portion of the hangars and manufaturing space Boeing had is either a) empty or b) for sale, and the only other thing you can hang your economic hat on is Chinese trade (and who was it that their submarines prowling our aircraft carriers the other day....yeah, that friendly Chinese navy...wonderful)?

The political sentiment that has befallen Seattle is the same sentiment that led the leadership in Dallas to turn down a project to create a permanent new home for the Cowboys in the deteriorating Fair Park area. Jerry Jones wanted to partner with the city to build a "new" Cotton Bowl, and to create an entirely new entertainment and shopping district around the Fair Park area that would have revitalized the area and guaranteed Dallas city coffers *millions* in new revenue and jobs for the next quarter century. Yes, it would have cost some seroius $$$; as a result, because they didn't want to be seen as giving any money to one of those "evil rich jerks" like Jones, (and the inevitable sentiment in that mindset is that all rich people are jerks) and that they couldn't grasp the concept of return on investment, they couldn't see the slam-dunk Jones was offering them - jobs, infrastructure, revenues - and told him "no, thanks." Fortunately, for Arlington, they did see the value in the NFL franchise, and snapped up the opportunity.

Only now, in retrospect, does Dallas see the error of its ways. They put up (and passed) a public bond to finance some expansion and refurbishment of the Cotton Bowl, which is nice, and may be enough to keep OU-Texas in Dallas for a while future, but it's not a fraction of what Jones had planned for the area. Dallas is going to get a face lift on an old stadium; Jones wanted to build an entirely new stadium AND entertainment district. The point is that's the very essence of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Sorry to digress onto an unrelated topic, but the irony of similar sentiment in those two cities was too striking to overlook.

Ah, well, Seattle's loss is OKC's gain.

-SoonerDave

soonerliberal
11-15-2006, 10:53 AM
During my recent visits to the Ford Center, one of the first things I noticed was the neutrality of the interior finishes, i.e. the virtual lack of color (other than the red design built into the floor of the street level concourse). It seems to me that this was done on purpose so that the ultimate finish-out would incorporate the colors and design elements of its primary big-league tenant. Don't get me wrong, the facility is very nice and certainly has a number of state-of-the-art features that would be the envy of a lot of big-league arenas, however there's another level which this facility also has the ability to reach without a substantial overhaul. Paint and tile will accomplish most of these ends quite well. The upcoming upgrades to the video and audio systems will really kick things up a notch. Some more color on the concourses and in the arena itself will make the place look dynamite.


I agree with you here. I would like the city or investors to pony up 10 or 15 million to make the simple improvements you mentioned along with maybe some restroom renovation? :)

Pete
11-15-2006, 11:45 AM
Remember that the Ford Center was purposely built to be pretty basic and this has proven to be a very wise stratgy.

The idea was to get it in place for a reasonable cost (several NBA arenas have cost 2-4 times as much) and once a team was in tow, then we could make further investments.

I think that's proven to be far wiser than Tulsa's approach and they've had a devil of a time with cost overruns that is going to really hurt when they next ask voters to support other public projects.

BDP
11-15-2006, 12:23 PM
I agree, Malibu. It's a very good strategy. Build the infrastructure first and then add the "frills" later when a tennant warrants it and revenue justifies it. The body of it will always be understated, but I don't think it would be too hard to even add a new facade and improve the plaza on Reno.

Pete
11-15-2006, 12:51 PM
I continue to marvel at MAPS.

It seems the visionaries really hit the cost-to-value sweet sport with all these projects.

Theo Walcott
11-15-2006, 12:52 PM
...this same strategy should be adopted for bringing an MLS team into town. it would be a snap, quite frankly.

y_h
11-15-2006, 01:19 PM
The body of it will always be understated, but I don't think it would be too hard to even add a new facade and improve the plaza on Reno.

As an outsider and one who has toured a number of major sports venues let me say that nothing needs to be done to the facade of the Ford Center. It's very attractive in its present state. There's nothing wrong with an understated facade. Look no further than the garish Georgia Dome to see just how wrong you can go with incorporating vivid colors into sports architecture.

BDP
11-16-2006, 09:20 AM
Good points y_h, it is easy to over-do-it and once it's done it is much harder to un-do-it.

Personally, I don't mind the finished concrete look on the inside and I can't really see that splashing it with a lot of Teal or Green would make it look better. However, I do think a new facade on the front with a grander, but still clean, plaza would look nice. Maybe something more open and with glass like the Toyota Center in Houston:

http://www.thesportsroadtrip.com/houston073.jpg

or America West Center in Phoenix:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/AmericaWestArena.jpg

http://www.phototour.minneapolis.mn.us/pics/2120.jpg

I don't know if the set backs would allow for something like that and it would be a major project to say the least, but if we were going to do some cosmetic improvements to the outside, I like those looks and think it would fit in with Ford Center's overall look.

But, again, I think you make good points and I would definately favor it as is opposed to something too garish.

Pete
11-16-2006, 09:47 AM
Afer I-40 is relocated, I think it would be easy to create a bigger plaza to the southwest of the Ford Center:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/fordcenter.jpg

BDP
11-16-2006, 12:24 PM
Good point, although I do like the way the Cox Center and Ford Center flow together on Reno. But if you put a convention hotel and parking structure on the south side a nice big plaza would be perfect right there.

Pete
11-16-2006, 07:36 PM
Would be a great entrance into downtown and a nice presence on the new boulevard.

There is lots more that can be done with that arena over time.

CuatrodeMayo
11-16-2006, 08:05 PM
As long as Benham is not allowed to do the renovations we should be in good shape.