View Full Version : Lackmeyer Interview With Randy Hogan 10-22-06



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writerranger
10-22-2006, 05:26 PM
The Oklahoman's Q&A this Sunday is with Randy Hogan....

http://www.newsok.com/article/2959460 (http://www.newsok.com/article/2959460)

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Midtowner
10-22-2006, 05:33 PM
http://www.morrisville.edu/Athletics/images/softball%202005%20002.jpg

(softball)

BDP
10-23-2006, 02:26 PM
Q: You've pioneered two of Oklahoma City's high profile entertainment districts: East Wharf and Lower Bricktown. What was your inspiration?

A: I wanted this to be a more fun place to live. It was personal. I had seen projects across the country, traveling, that got my attention and thought, ‘Wouldn't it be great to do something like this in Oklahoma City?' It's about getting a kick in the city.

Q: What is your favorite entertainment district outside of Oklahoma?

A: The Grove in California, between Hollywood and Beverly Hills. It's got a great feel to it. We took a part of our Lower Bricktown plaza design from the Grove. It's real closed-in — I like it.

OMG, this guy is clueless. Please find me any similarity between the Grove and lower bricktown:

http://www.thegrovela.com/images/photoBG_5.jpg

http://www.thegrovela.com/images/photoBG_4.jpg

http://www.thegrovela.com/images/photoBG_1.jpg

http://www.thegrovela.com/images/photoBG_2.jpg

http://www.thegrovela.com/images/photoBG_0.jpg

I don't think anyone would be critical if he'd even attempted to do anything as nice as that. I don't think many people realize how common nice shopping and entertainment areas like this are these days. People really should be wondering why the city didn't at least want something like that.

metro
10-23-2006, 02:48 PM
Midtowner, I'm confused, is the softball picture what Hogan was thinking about when he designed Lower Bricktown? BDP, you are correct, Hogan is clueless and what is worse is he ruined what the East Wharf could of been as well as created serious implications for Lower Bricktown. I wish someone would do an interview with him and ask tough, dirt digging questions.

Midtowner
10-23-2006, 02:57 PM
I was referring to the interview.

But your explanation works as well.

-- and I couldn't find a picture of someone playing underhand soft pitch softball.

metro
10-23-2006, 03:05 PM
Midtowner, I'm confused, is the softball picture what Hogan was thinking about when he designed Lower Bricktown? BDP, you are correct, Hogan is clueless and what is worse is he ruined what the East Wharf could of been as well as created serious implications for Lower Bricktown. I wish someone would do an interview with him and ask tough, dirt digging questions and really, truly educate the majority of the general public on what we're capable of doing.

TStheThird
10-23-2006, 03:47 PM
This crap just pisses me off. You see all these developments across the country and then you look at Lower Bricktown and it makes you scream.

I guess I will have to buy Hogan’s properties and tear them down and start over. What a clown... shame on the men that awarded this project to Hogan. They should be held accountable.

jbrown84
10-24-2006, 09:09 AM
I just don't understand how he can sit there and say he's seen all these great developments and tried to do the same thing here. Not even close. He's either a total cheapskate or doesn't think that OKC can support something that nice. Either way I don't like him.

BDP
10-24-2006, 01:07 PM
None of this would be as upsetting if what he's done wasn't on publicly enhanced land. He was GIFTED that property and somehow he feels no responsibility for that.

Can you imagine something like The Grove above with a canal running through it?? Or even behind it with similar storefronts on Reno?? OKC isn't big enough or rich enough to support a lot of these of that scale like LA, obviously, but let's face it, Lower Bricktown isn't that big. Done right, he could have created a destination shopping experience in downtown OKC half as big, but just as nice as the Grove. He basically looked at everything the Grove has and all he could come up with is that Lower Bricktown needed a fountain and let's not forget that he didn't even pay for that.

Again, if he'd done it all from scratch, it would just be another lazy developer amongst many in OKC. However, he got prime real estate improved by tax payer money dropped in his lap. Opportunities like that only happen in cities once a generation at best and we blew it.

We can all sit around and think how much nicer downtown Oklahoma City is now than 10 years ago, but the truth is that most major cities have a development like the grove now or at least one major shopping district that isn't a de jure mall. Lower Bricktown was the opportunity for Oklahoma City to build a major league shopping district in the heart of Oklahoma City. While we were improving the city with Bass Pros, Toby Keith's, suburban movie theaters, and surface parking, the rest of the country was once again lapping us with their own comprehensive and coherently planned developments.

I'm just hoping that the triangle/automobile alley can do what Hogan couldn't even dream of and actually pull off a healthy retail district for downtown on their own.

ChristianConservative
10-24-2006, 01:14 PM
This shows how spineless Steve Lackmeyer is. If it was a Q & A with Randy Hogan, why didn't Steve ask the real questions? Like, where are all of the retail shops you promised? Why couldn't you finance Bass Pro Shops yourself? Why have you turned a nice urban area into suburbia? Why couldn't you keep your original promises, building a boardwalk and skate shop at East Wharf? Where's the big name businesses you claimed you had letters of intent with?

Randy Hogan is clueless, and it's a shame that Lackmeyer buys into all of this.

Midtowner
10-24-2006, 01:19 PM
Lackameyer isn't so clueless. He's just a mouthpiece for this group of developers who have their 'ins' with city government.

What I'd like to see happen is some folks with real money, say Aubrey McClendon, and the CEO of SandRidge start a development venture, hire TAP Architecture, and make a lot of money by building really first-rate developments. The energy business is a cyclical thing. Every time it's been on top (as it is now), people have said "This time, it'll be different." They then proceed to overextend themselves, dump all of their eggs into one basket, and lose their tail-ends.

Development, particularly developing blighted urban property into upscale real estate is extremely profitable. The insiders (Hogan and the Humphries) need some competition. I don't see anyone else really capable of going forward and really making a difference.

ChristianConservative
10-24-2006, 01:23 PM
Lackameyer isn't so clueless. He's just a mouthpiece for this group of developers who have their 'ins' with city government.

If he had a spine, he'd state the truth, and not paint a rosey picture of a developer that's an absolute idiot.


What I'd like to see happen is some folks with real money, say Aubrey McClendon, and the CEO of SandRidge start a development venture, hire TAP Architecture, and make a lot of money by building really first-rate developments. The energy business is a cyclical thing. Every time it's been on top (as it is now), people have said "This time, it'll be different." They then proceed to overextend themselves, dump all of their eggs into one basket, and lose their tail-ends.

I'm not in the development business but I think I could do a better job than Mr. Hogan has with Lower Bricktown. But, the problem is, I will never get that opportunity. I'm not part of the in-crowd here.


Development, particularly developing blighted urban property into upscale real estate is extremely profitable. The insiders (Hogan and the Humphries) need some competition. I don't see anyone else really capable of going forward and really making a difference.

I would attempt to join them, but I'm not inside the pockets of the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority.

Midtowner
10-24-2006, 01:33 PM
If he had a spine, he'd state the truth, and not paint a rosey picture of a developer that's an absolute idiot.

Trouble is -- Gaylord Entertainment has their fingers in just about every cookie jar. He couldn't go after these guys without going after his bosses. Lackameyer is an extremely unattractive guy who is a mediocre writer. He'd have a very difficult job even getting an interview at most papers. My guess is that he knows this, and therefore will not take on his boss' friends. Just off the top of my head, when Bass Pro came to town, Gaylord Entertainment had a 1/3 stake in Bass Pro. The list goes on and on.


I'm not in the development business but I think I could do a better job than Mr. Hogan has with Lower Bricktown. But, the problem is, I will never get that opportunity. I'm not part of the in-crowd here.

All it takes to get into the game is political connection and money. The nice thing about money is that it can compensate for the former. Another nice thing about the development business is that there are some good people out there who you can contract with.

Just imagine what could have been if Moshe Tal had paid attention to the political end of things?


I would attempt to join them, but I'm not inside the pockets of the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority.

From what I hear, it just takes an open checkbook :)
You're on the state fair board -- that's definitely a step in the right direction. This city is basically controlled by such groups. It appears you do have your foot in the door if nothing else. Hook a few people up with state fair favors, and who knows what's next?

-- with that in mind, imagine what the people who are there right now must have done to get there! Imagine how many people they 'owe.' It's really kind of scarey if you're just a taxpayer.

That's life in the big city though.

BDP
10-24-2006, 01:37 PM
I don't know for sure, because I don't know him, but I'm guessing that Lackmeyer is as frustrated as we are, but he's not allowed to criticize anything considered progress by the old guard or anything associated with insider deals with the city. He writes for the Oklahoman and the paper just isn't that aggressive on anything, but maybe local sports.

The funny thing is that Hogan hasn't really planned or developed much of that land himself. He pretty much just took the gift, chopped it up, and farmed it out as pad sites. I just wonder if he thinks that's how places like the Grove were developed. If he likes places like that, why didn't he do it. That's what Lackmeyer should have asked and, if allowed, I bet he would have.

I mean, how hard would it be to track down the firms that did some of these developments and have them design it?? You'd also get the added benefit of name recognition when soliciting tenants. I can't imagine that the name "Randy Hogan" means anything to any national retailer. But if he had an established firm come in and design it, he could have used that to sell the concept to tenants that already have successful operations in other similar developments. Honestly, I just assumed that was what would happen down there in the beginning as Iíd seen it so many other places. Thatís why it just struck a nerve to hear Hogan admit heís seen it done and then turn around and do something completely half-assed.

Anyway, it's just hard to drive by or go to a movie and not realize what a lost opportunity that place is...

ChristianConservative
10-24-2006, 01:38 PM
Trouble is -- Gaylord Entertainment has their fingers in just about every cookie jar. He couldn't go after these guys without going after his bosses. Lackameyer is an extremely unattractive guy who is a mediocre writer. He'd have a very difficult job even getting an interview at most papers. My guess is that he knows this, and therefore will not take on his boss' friends. Just off the top of my head, when Bass Pro came to town, Gaylord Entertainment had a 1/3 stake in Bass Pro. The list goes on and on.

Can anyone say good ole boy network? If Lackmeyer had any gutts, he'd do to the Gazette and try to bring his readers with him.



All it takes to get into the game is political connection and money. The nice thing about money is that it can compensate for the former. Another nice thing about the development business is that there are some good people out there who you can contract with.

But, that's not the way it should be, and that's not the way I operate financially.


Just imagine what could have been if Moshe Tal had paid attention to the political end of things?

He may have appeared to stick out like a sore thumb, but someday someone will understand where he was coming from.



From what I hear, it just takes an open checkbook :)
You're on the state fair board -- that's definitely a step in the right direction. This city is basically controlled by such groups. It appears you do have your foot in the door if nothing else. Hook a few people up with state fair favors, and who knows what's next?

I have my foot in the door, but I'm the odd one of the bunch. An outsider, if you will.


-- with that in mind, imagine what the people who are there right now must have done to get there! Imagine how many people they 'owe.' It's really kind of scarey if you're just a taxpayer.

That's life in the big city though.

Exactly why I haven't gotten involved in that.

johnnyboyokc
10-28-2006, 03:28 AM
lackmeyer, he has taken every side of bricktown there is to take. He has beat down the founder to the new developer. However he seems to makes his statement clear...........Bricktown - Downtown is back again.........and he is the only one who has critisized and fought it but ended up right.....it is the rennissance. Steve fought jim, karchmer, tolbert, scaramucci, however he has realized this has become a national attraction which has made him a great histoian.. and there are many more districts to come because of it..............to the founders

writerranger
10-28-2006, 09:39 AM
It would be nice to see a Gazette profile of Hogan - complete with pointed questions.

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Midtowner
10-28-2006, 11:02 AM
lackmeyer, he has taken every side of bricktown there is to take. He has beat down the founder to the new developer. However he seems to makes his statement clear...........Bricktown - Downtown is back again.........and he is the only one who has critisized and fought it but ended up right.....it is the rennissance. Steve fought jim, karchmer, tolbert, scaramucci, however he has realized this has become a national attraction which has made him a great histoian.. and there are many more districts to come because of it..............to the founders

Bullcrap.

If by fighting, you mean glowing articles as to how Bass Pro will be a raving success despite the concerns of "a few" buried somewhere towards the end of the story -- no interviews of "the few," and little mention of the fact that at the time, the deal was illegal. MAPS money used to build Bass Pro was a vote to raise taxes for a specific purpose. If that purpose changes, a new vote must be held.

Moshe Tal filed a lawsuit on that, but our Oklahoma Court of Civil Appeals basically wrote "The law is not the law" in an unpublished opinion(which means they don't want it to set precedent [presumably because it would be really bad precedent]). The Supreme Court denied certiori, the rest is history. How much of that did Steve write about?

johnnyboyokc
10-28-2006, 11:48 PM
the only thing i can say is steve has tackled both sides of every story in bricktown trust me..............

Midtowner
10-29-2006, 12:02 AM
I agree. Both sides are represented. However, when the story's headline is "City to Go Ahead in Building Bass Pro," the story continues for 3 paragraphs or so about the greatness of Bass Pro quoting Hogan, the CEO of Bass Pro, etc., then there is an insert at the bottom that "some people think this is a bad idea," both sides are 'covered' per se.

Whether they were given fair treatment is another story.

Lackameyer works for the Daily Oklahoman -- he's their go-to guy in development cheerleading.

Here's an example of "fair" coverage:




Development on the map for Bricktown
Steve Lackmeyer
04/28/2001

In the decade since Bricktown emerged as Oklahoma City's entertainment district, the old warehouse area has seen the openings of dozens of new restaurants, clubs and shops.

Projects on the drawing board now include renovating a vacant automotive glass store into a club and transforming a brick warehouse just west of Abuelo's into a Chinese restaurant.

Most developers and merchants in the area are focusing their attention on just one store that they hope will attract thousands of new visitors.

The deal to bring a Bass Pro Shops location to a gravel lot southeast of the SBC Bricktown Ballpark requires a public-private partnership that has been assailed by critics and the chain's competitors as a waste of tax money.

For the past several weeks, city leaders have been negotiating with the Springfield, Mo., company to build a 110,000-square-foot store using city-issued revenue bonds. The city would own the building, and the bonds would be paid through lease payments and an anticipated increase in sales tax revenues generated by the store.

"I think the only way we will see growth is with Bass Pro," said Devery Youngblood, executive director of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc. "It gives us the year-around anchor we've needed. I think we've developed Bricktown as far as we can without having that kind of stimulus."

With a Bass Pro, Youngblood said, development along the southern segment of the Bricktown Canal will take off. Mayor Kirk Humphreys agrees, saying a hotel and new corporate headquarters are among the projects awaiting completion of a deal with Bass Pro.

Youngblood also believes that with Bass Pro, developer Randy Hogan will succeed in building a proposed theater, a Sega Gameworks center, restaurants and shops along the canal just south of Reno Avenue.

Youngblood, meanwhile, is promising visitors a more pleasant walk through Bricktown. Crews hired by Downtown Oklahoma City Inc. are now spray-washing sidewalks and picking up trash on a weekly basis.

Signage will also be added throughout all of downtown to help visitors find their way among the various attractions.

"A lot of what we're trying to do is to run Bricktown better," Youngblood said.

Youngblood's organization is also beginning to add street performers to the sights and sounds of Bricktown - especially during special events and holidays.

"We haven't necessarily done the small things well, and we need to center on that," Youngblood said. "We need to take care of our day-to-day customers, and we need to see more life on the

johnnyboyokc
10-29-2006, 12:10 AM
hey i never said the lower bricktown was a fair deal however karchmer tolbert brewer in the real bricktown are a real private investment deal.....you are right about public investing in private deals????????however it has brought alot of business to bricktown right and im sure there is a ROI....

Midtowner
10-29-2006, 12:19 AM
No doubt there's a huge ROI. The question is -- if the project had been put into competant hands (i.e., not Hogan's), how much more ROI could we have at this point?

As a city, if we had not been the victims (again) of the self-dealing OCURA country club crowd, we'd be in a lot better position than we are now for luring significant convention and tourist business away from other cities.

johnnyboyokc
10-29-2006, 12:22 AM
i do agree we as a city have had a ignorant stand on luring conventions to the city....what does the okccvb do....nothing they should promote us as the central hub of the US.....we have failed there.......and they promised us success

Midtowner
10-29-2006, 12:26 AM
Unfortunately, just about every time we set up a public trust, it's dominated by self-dealing country-club types who could care less about the public interest and are only there to line their own pocket books.

There should be a lot more transparency and scrutiny placed on bodies such as OCURA, the State Fair Board, etc. Historically, these have been some of the most corrupt organizations in our city, and historically, they have operated very much to the detriment of the citizens of OKC.

To lure serious convention business to OKC, we need to not think of the Cox Convention Center as being central to our convention plan. Other cities have long abandoned such centers in favor of convention hotels.

A chain I'd love to see locate in Bricktown would be the Hyatt Regency. Those facilities are excellent for large conventions. One located in Bricktown could really be huge.

Unfortunately, we're wasting our time with Residence Inns.

johnnyboyokc
10-29-2006, 12:31 AM
again you are right....damn i hate that...our price point for hotels at a $189 a night are not luring conventions......i dont mind paying $500 a night at the colcord cause it is a boutique hotel but OKCCVB needs to market a lower hotel rate for conv..

johnnyboyokc
10-29-2006, 12:34 AM
again you are right....damn i hate that...our price point for hotels at a $189 a night are not luring conventions......i dont mind paying $500 a night at the colcord cause it is a boutique hotel but OKCCVB needs to market a lower hotel rate for conv..however like you said i think more hotels the better....because we are going to grow beyond bricktown ie..the river midtown airpark ect... and we need hotels that are not on meridian

Midtowner
10-29-2006, 12:53 AM
It would be nice to see a strategic alliance emerge to attract some first-rate facilities. Development for lower bricktown will really open up once I-40 is moved.

With the amount of land available there, we can do a LOT better than surface parking and mid-sized hotels. A convention complex on the south end of the river complete with a large hotel would really be huge.

In all the places I've attended conferences at, nothing has anything like Bricktown so close and convenient.

johnnyboyokc
10-29-2006, 12:56 AM
well i here there will be a maps three after the relocation of 40 and huge retail will be there....just rumors but great ones

Pete
10-29-2006, 07:58 AM
We took a part of our Lower Bricktown plaza design from the Grove. It's real closed-in — I like it.

Just saw this.

What a complete joke! LB and The Grove couldn't possibly more dissimilar. What, did he copy part of the title pattern? Otherwise, those two developments have absolutely nothing in common.


I know Hogan is greedy and just trying to make money independent of the city's best interests but it also seems he's a total moron.

Midtowner
10-29-2006, 08:53 AM
MalibuSooner:

Not true. He just thinks we're all morons. We're not, but there's not much we can do to stop him and his OCURA buddies from robbing the public in broad daylight.

Luke
10-29-2006, 10:28 AM
As cheaply as those buildings are in Lower Bricktown, they should be able to demo them fairly easily making way for those with actual good ideas. Not that it'll happen anytime soon.

I think there is still enough land on the LB canal in the form of parking lots or empty areas that LB can be salvaged. Building wall to wall structures in LB would improve the feel a million times.

Homer
10-30-2006, 10:05 AM
Wow. It's amazing how quickly people can throw stones at those on the frontlines. I won't defend Lower Bricktown from a design standpoint - I think a much higher quality standard could have and should have been applied. But I don't believe the hype that what happened was either illegal or unethical.

Those still whining about Moshe Tal (10 years later) should consider something. Through their destructive litigation, they have done more than anyone to kill the momentum of downtown development. In the process they've also put the city in overly protective position against incentivizing other future development projects (kind of shell shocked it seems).

Instead of piling on so much negative energy - do something. Make it happen. There's not another city like OKC with the opportunity to really make a positive impact in the urban core.

Midtowner
10-30-2006, 11:19 AM
Shell shocked? Good!

Maybe the city will think next time before making sweetheart deals with developers who don't follow through?

As for not believing it's unethical or illegal, I know for a fact that some of the stuff was technically illegal.

In reference to the Bass Pro deal, the city passed MAPS. The Oklahoma Constitution says that tax increases such as that must be for a specific and stated purpose not to be changed without a vote of the people. Well... some of that public MAPS money was diverted for Bass Pro without a vote of the people.

It's in the Constitution plain as day. If you press me on the issue, I'll go get cites :)

As for my negative energy, for now, it's not negative, it's positive. I know exactly what kind of opportunity we have in Bricktown. Its proximity to the downtown area, the availability of choice land, and the potential for development are really unrivaled anywhere. When I see something which I think will bee bad for the future of my hometown, you'd better bet I'll let someone know.

As far as incentivizing future development, that's just wrong on its face. Any well connected developer (see: Grant Humpheries) can apply and generally be approved for whatever TIF money he or she wants to pocket in order to 'make a project profitable.'

The city and state learned a lesson in Bricktown -- if they're going to incentivize, they're now going to have a 'legitimate' means for doing so.

Tell ya what: If you are not a well-connected developer, see how far your application gets in trying to secure TIF money for something you want to build :)

Pete
10-30-2006, 11:41 AM
The city wasn't so shell-shocked that they didn't turn around and essentially do the exact same thing by awarding Canfield's group development rights to The Hill, even though their own paid consultant recommended TAP & Co.'s design, primarily because it incorporated retail and was much more inventive and open to the community.

I won't rehash how and why that decision was made but it's a clear indication that the beat goes on with OCURA, the old boy network and our supposed civic leaders.

Homer
10-30-2006, 01:09 PM
You mentioned The Hill and Block 42. Looking at those projects, the City approved a TIF amount equal to less than 6% of the total project budget. The unofficial national standard for TIF assistance is more like 10% (the standard in cities like Nashville).

If the City wants to rev up downtown development, they shouldn't be scared to go for more TIF. It's a great investment for the City - with strong coverage of the bondholder return - to be aggressive on TIF.

I haven't seen or heard of a viable downtown housing project that has been rejected on TIF. Instead, there are a lot of talkers, but few who actually perform.

Popsy
10-30-2006, 06:52 PM
I am suprised to see Midtowner in this thread stating facts again that aren't facts, but then again it seems to be par for the course. Midtowner, you might need to add to your research as to what monies were used for Bass Pro. I am fairly certain the money did not come from MAPS.

Midtowner
10-30-2006, 08:44 PM
Sorry Popsy, this time I'm right.

Of the amount used, $11,370,696 came from the MAPS fund, $3,034,294 came from teh City & Schools Capital Projects Use Tax Fund and $2,765,010 came from teh Public Safety Capital Use Tax Fund.

These of course were "loans" from those funds according to the "Amended Funding Plan for the COnstruction of Bass Pro Shops of September 23, 2003.

Why is it illegal?

See 68 O.S. section 2701 (B)


B. A sales tax authorized in subsection A of this section may be levied for limited purposes specified in the ordinance levying the tax. Such ordinance shall be submitted to the voters for approval as provided in Section 2705 of this title. Any sales tax levied or any change in the rate of a sales tax levied pursuant to the provisions of this section shall become effective on the first day of the calendar quarter following approval by the voters of the city or town unless another effective date, which shall also be on the first day of a calendar quarter, is specified in the ordinance levying the sales tax or changing the rate of sales tax. Such ordinance shall describe with specificity the projects or expenditures for which the limited-purpose tax levy would be made. The municipal governing body shall create a limited-purpose fund and deposit therein any revenue generated by any tax levied pursuant to this subsection. Money in the fund shall be accumulated from year to year. The fund shall be placed in an insured interest-bearing account and the interest which accrues on the fund shall be retained in the fund. The fund shall be nonfiscal and shall not be considered in computing any levy when the municipality makes its estimate to the excise board for needed appropriations. Money in the limited-purpose tax fund shall be expended only as accumulated and only for the purposes specifically described in the taxing ordinance as approved by the voters.

The original MAPS proposal, here, you'll note had no Bass Pro in it:


Original proposal backed by council
2003-12-07



This is how MAPS originally was proposed to voters, as reported in The Oklahoman on Dec. 10, 1993.

The Oklahoma City Council approved the Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS) plan on Oct. 13 as a comprehensive plan to bring Oklahoma City into the "big leagues" of American cities.

City leaders want Oklahoma City voters on Dec. 14 to approve a five- year, penny sales tax increase to fund an estimated $237.6 million in construction during the tax's term.

A 1-cent increase would boost the state and city sales tax in the city to 8.375 percent.

The MAPS plan will be presented on one ballot as an all-or-nothing package. Only Oklahoma City voters will be eligible to cast ballots on the package.

Here is a brief description of the projects to be built with the earmarked money:
Baseball park
A 15,000-seat stadium meeting Triple-A league standards. No location has been set, but the Bricktown entertainment district is the front- runner. $21.8 million.
Myriad arena
A new, 20,000-seat arena separate from the current Myriad Convention Center and its arena. The proposed location, not specified in the tax ballot, is south of the convention center.

City leaders will build the arena to meet National Basketball Association and National Hockey League standards. They hope to land a team from one of those leagues. $79.8 million.

Civic Center Music Hall
The 56-year-old hall would be completely renovated to house major theatrical, dance and musical groups, including the Oklahoma City Philharmonic. $27 million.

Metropolitan learning center
A new downtown library complex that would include an adult learning center for continuing education, auditorium and business information center.

The center would be on the north end of a Galleria complex to be located south of the Oklahoma County Courthouse.

The center would encompass 125,500 square feet and cost $15.9 million.
Myriad Convention Center
Construction and renovation would add 100,000 more square feet to the existing 950,000 gross square feet.

The improvements would add more ballroom, meeting and exhibit space. $24.9 million.
North Canadian River
Three dams would pool water along the river from Martin Luther King Avenue to May Avenue. The tax would fund landscaping, trails, docks, picnic areas and recreation spots in the area.

The city also would build a scenic, shop-lined river canal running north from the river, parallel to and west of Byers Avenue.

The canal would turn west at Reno Avenue and stop near E.K. Gaylord Boulevard and Reno. Conceptual drawings show the canal abutting the proposed Bricktown stadium and Myriad Arena, but the city council could change the locations. Total cost $37.1 million.

State fairgrounds
Proposed improvements include a world-class, horse auction center to increase Oklahoma City's attractiveness for horse industry events. Other tax money would fund improvements to existing facilities to fend off other cities competing for horse events. $11.5 million.
Transportation link
The city council could choose light rail, monorail or another mass transit system to create a link between downtown and the Interstate 40 and Meridian hotel area.

If money is available, the link could be expanded later to the Remington Park area. Any transit system would only be funded if federal funds cover at least 50 percent of the cost, the ballot says. $3 million.
Site acquisition, parking and related construction
This includes buying land, creating parking, paying architectural and engineering fees, removing existing structures, etc. $16.6 million.

There was no vote of the people (refer to back to the statute). There... see? Illegal.

downtownguy
10-30-2006, 09:11 PM
The use tax was not part of that ballot and was different from the sales tax. It was created separately by the city council.

Midtowner
10-30-2006, 09:17 PM
Even so, the first document I mentioned specifies where money was taken from the MAPS, schools and public safety funds and used for Bass Pro purposes -- around 2 million dollars.

I couldn't find where the original money came from, but the extra money to cover the cost overruns definitely came from those three mentioned funds which were set aside for special purposes pursuant to the above statute.

Popsy
10-30-2006, 09:43 PM
Nice research Midtowner, however I do have several questions. First, from what source did you find the numbers showing $11,370,696 came from Maps as I thought I had read that the money came from Federal Community Block Grant Funds, but I will admit that I possibly confused this with the Skirvin project? Secondly, the original Maps proposal you printed and the wording on the ballot were probably different and what was on the ballot would be what is pertinent. Thirdly, a second vote occured to extend maps, so could the lanquage have been different?

Lastly, it appears that maybe I should not be just working by memory and I need to subscribe to OPUBCO's researh feature to help keep us both in line as I am sure that both of us want to be accurace. :)

Patrick
10-31-2006, 03:42 PM
You are accurately detailing restrictions on the sales tax. The city lent out from the use tax, which is a separate fund, separate levy, and not addressed by the law you are citing. I will leave it at this. I don't argue with your criticisms of the Lower Bricktown deal. I just disagree with your approach.

A sales tax authorized in subsection A of this section may be levied for limited purposes specified in the ordinance levying the tax. Such ordinance shall be submitted to the voters for approval as provided in Section 2705 of this title. Any sales tax levied or any change in the rate of a sales tax levied pursuant to the provisions of this section shall become effective on the first day of the calendar quarter following approval by the voters of the city or town unless another effective date, which shall also be on the first day of a calendar quarter, is specified in the ordinance levying the sales tax or changing the rate of sales tax. Such ordinance shall describe with specificity the projects or expenditures for which the limited-purpose tax levy would be made. The municipal governing body shall create a limited-purpose fund and deposit therein any revenue generated by any tax levied pursuant to this subsection. Money in the fund shall be accumulated from year to year. The fund shall be placed in an insured interest-bearing account and the interest which accrues on the fund shall be retained in the fund. The fund shall be nonfiscal and shall not be considered in computing any levy when the municipality makes its estimate to the excise board for needed appropriations. Money in the limited-purpose tax fund shall be expended only as accumulated and only for the purposes specifically described in the taxing ordinance as approved by the voters.

johnnyboyokc
11-03-2006, 01:15 AM
you are on the money on the TIF dollars

johnnyboyokc
11-03-2006, 01:26 AM
Listen guys i have been taking up for my business Brewer Entertainment....And I have talked to some of you in private however i will come out and say we all are enjoying bricktown.... and the city is thriving...so no matter who is successful you know what who cares...everyone can always do better but for OKC i think we are doing pretty damn good....are you having fun?

Midtowner
11-03-2006, 11:33 AM
Nice research Midtowner, however I do have several questions. First, from what source did you find the numbers showing $11,370,696 came from Maps as I thought I had read that the money came from Federal Community Block Grant Funds, but I will admit that I possibly confused this with the Skirvin project? Secondly, the original Maps proposal you printed and the wording on the ballot were probably different and what was on the ballot would be what is pertinent. Thirdly, a second vote occured to extend maps, so could the lanquage have been different?

Lastly, it appears that maybe I should not be just working by memory and I need to subscribe to OPUBCO's researh feature to help keep us both in line as I am sure that both of us want to be accurace. :)

I lifted that off of an Oklahoma City Council agenda.

BDP
11-03-2006, 01:03 PM
everyone can always do better but for OKC i think we are doing pretty damn good

I think the repeated inclusion of that qualifier is what so often holds Oklahoma City back. There are comparable markets who have built much better developments than lower bricktown in recent years at a much lower cost to the public. As long as we only try to be better than the sleepy soulless town we were 10 years ago, that's all we'll ever be. And, in the case of lower bricktown, it hasn't really even brought anything new to the market. So, did it really play any part of making OKC better?

I think it's time we stop looking at ambitious plans as out of our league and stop handing out developments of key property to insiders with no vision. I think the only reason lower bricktown and Hogan repeatedly gets shredded here is so that people won't forget how it happened and who did it. We need to stop just trying to be better than 1990 OKC and begin to be competitive in attractions, lifestyle choice, and quality of life. When we do something, let's try and set the bar higher for ourselves.


are you having fun?

Not in lower bricktown outside of the occasional movie and not at Bass Pro. I can honestly say that if Hogan had actually done anything like The Grove in lower bricktown, even if it was 1/5 the scale, visiting it would be a much more regular activity. As it is now, it's not really even worth it. I like the theater better than most in OKC, but, really, a parking lot is a parking lot, even if it has a canal running through it. They could flood the ditch between Belle Isle Station and Penn Square and achieve the same aesthetic as Hogan and the city did with Lower Bricktown.

floater
11-03-2006, 02:35 PM
I think the repeated inclusion of that qualifier is what so often holds Oklahoma City back.

Amen. I cringe when I see that phrase. That is a fat lie. I cannot think of a more toxic attitude for the people that build this city than thinking that it's okay to live in mediocrity. If you think first class, develop first class, then locals will start believing that we are first class.

ChristianConservative
11-03-2006, 02:37 PM
Midtowner, I would prefer that you leave the State Fair Board out of this. You and I both know they are not corrupt. Maybe OCURA yes, but not the fair board.

ChristianConservative
11-03-2006, 02:40 PM
Listen guys i have been taking up for my business Brewer Entertainment....And I have talked to some of you in private however i will come out and say we all are enjoying bricktown.... and the city is thriving...so no matter who is successful you know what who cares...everyone can always do better but for OKC i think we are doing pretty damn good....are you having fun?

Am I having fun? Well, the shows your company puts on are getting old. Same thing every year. How many times can you set up a stage in your parking lot at Oklahoma Ave. and Sheridan and call it a festival? How many times can you have the same hippie second rate Oklahoma bands play at these festivals? Come on. Come up with something new and different than what your father put on.

ChristianConservative
11-03-2006, 02:41 PM
I am suprised to see Midtowner in this thread stating facts again that aren't facts, but then again it seems to be par for the course. Midtowner, you might need to add to your research as to what monies were used for Bass Pro. I am fairly certain the money did not come from MAPS.

Midtowner is wrong, you are correct. The money came from the MAPS USE Tax fund, which is a tax on the goods purchased by contractors constructing the MAPS projects. That money was NOT voted on, and can be used in whatever way the city wishes.

Popsy
11-03-2006, 02:46 PM
Reading the constant lambasting of Hogan in this forum by a few vocal assassins and history revisionists gets very tiresome as it seems to be unrelenting. Hogan was the only viable, and I use the word viable loosely to the extreme, developer to step up. Moshe Tal had no viability of any kind in my view. Lower Bricktown is not a developers development. It is a users development. Hogan has merely been trying to recover his investor's money any way he can and that means allowing the users to put up anything they want within the allowed oversight. No one knows what might have happened if Hogan could have proceeded with his original plans before Tal's crybaby lawsuit.

From the time I found OKC Talk until now I have formed the belief Moshe Tal created a cult of followers during his time in the Sun and they now use this forum to extoll the virtues of Talism. I am just glad that Talism didn't have so many converts back in the nineties or we would be talking about the nice cement pond that runs through the weed patch south of Reno if no one besides Hogan and his investors had never ponied up.

Send Talism back to dark ages.

Patrick
11-03-2006, 02:56 PM
Reading the constant lambasting of Hogan in this forum by a few vocal assassins and history revisionists gets very tiresome as it seems to be unrelenting. Hogan was the only viable, and I use the word viable loosely to the extreme, developer to step up.

There were actually 3 groups that stepped up the the plate with proposals: Bricktown2000, TMK-Hogan, and Sooner Development.



]Moshe Tal had no viability of any kind in my view.

That was never proven. He had statements from Bank One and Midfirst Bank supporting financing of his development. I had copies of those letters until I finally trashed them recently.


Hogan has merely been trying to recover his investor's money any way he can and that means allowing the users to put up anything they want within the allowed oversight.

What investor's money? He hasn't invested anything. Indirectly, he was given the land.


No one knows what might have happened if Hogan could have proceeded with his original plans before Tal's crybaby lawsuit.

That's just it. Hogan never had any clear cut plans, and he never had anything more than a letter of intent from Edwards Theatres.


From the time I found OKC Talk until now I have formed the belief Moshe Tal created a cult of followers during his time in the Sun and they now use this forum to extoll the virtues of Talism.

We don't necessarily like Tal. We just know that Lower Bricktown can be more than what it is now.


I am just glad that Talism didn't have so many converts back in the nineties or we would be talking about the nice cement pond that runs through the weed patch south of Reno if no one besides Hogan and his investors had never ponied up.
Send Talism back to dark ages.

Had Talism had converts back in the 90's we'd have upscale stores, urban development, etc. on the canal now, instead of a fishing and tackle store, and a bunch of surburban developments.

BDP
11-03-2006, 04:21 PM
Hogan was the only viable, and I use the word viable loosely to the extreme, developer to step up.

That contradicts this:


Lower Bricktown is not a developers development. It is a users development.

If this is the case, then Hogan was never needed in the first place and he was just given a gift from the city for no reason. He's USELESS. Basically, it boils down to the city selected him to do nothing and profit from the enhancements made by the city.


history revisionists

What a cop out. I think the history is well known and the present is that Hogan and Lower Bricktown suck and because of it Oklahoma City lost a HUGE opportunity to devlop a unique and comprhensive multi use developmentin its core right next to it's up and coming historic entertainment district. Now, we got the suburbs dropped into the city. It is anywhere USA. Why did we pay for that??


No one knows what might have happened if Hogan could have proceeded with his original plans before Tal's crybaby lawsuit.

What did happen is that he proceeded with NO plan, as you pointed out, and that's why it sucks.

Look, who cares about Tal now. We're talking about what Hogan has done. HE mentioned the Grove, not anyone here. What has been done with the key property upon which tax payer money placed a lot of value has been dissappointing to say the least.


Send Talism back to dark ages.

WTF?? That was weird.

Midtowner
11-04-2006, 10:52 AM
Midtowner, I would prefer that you leave the State Fair Board out of this. You and I both know they are not corrupt. Maybe OCURA yes, but not the fair board.

My apologies.

In the past, however, the State Fair Board has been as bad as any at violating the open meetings/records acts (this is typically the smoke produced by the 'fire' of corruption). You'd have to go a ways into the past to be able to see this though.

THEComedian
11-04-2006, 03:24 PM
If it wasn't for Randy Hogan, there would be no Lower Bricktown at all. It would be desolate wasteland. Have any of you seen Tal's property lately?

johnnyboyokc
11-05-2006, 02:13 AM
did you know that eric from ovations was fired last week so the fair will be a better place from now on...

johnnyboyokc
11-05-2006, 02:14 AM
did you know that eric (i think that is is name) from ovations was fired last week so the fair will be a better place from now on...

ChristianConservative
11-05-2006, 11:55 AM
did you know that eric (i think that is is name) from ovations was fired last week so the fair will be a better place from now on...

Exactly.

TStheThird
11-05-2006, 04:09 PM
I would say we might be better off if Lower Bricktown were still a field. It would then allow for someone with talent and vision to build something that would add value to OKC.

ChristianConservative
11-06-2006, 01:17 PM
I would say we might be better off if Lower Bricktown were still a field. It would then allow for someone with talent and vision to build something that would add value to OKC.

I'm a major Oklahoma City businessman, and I have to say I agree with you. I know Randy, but being that I'm somewhat anonymous here, I can be honest with you that the guy doesn't have the slightest idea what the word urban means.

BDP
11-06-2006, 01:28 PM
If it wasn't for Randy Hogan, there would be no Lower Bricktown at all. It would be desolate wasteland.

Yeah, right! No way I believe that for a second. It's possible that it wouldn't be developed, yet, but even that's a long shot. And even if it wasn't developed it would still have it's potential. Now it's just an irreversible mess.

If Hogan wasn't involved, it'd be a comprehensive and synergistic dense mix of retail, entertainment, and dining lining the canal with an architectural design that compliments and enhances the improvements paid for by the consumers of this city. Conventioneers, locals, and visitors would spend time and money strolling the canal complex that was the result of a well planned development intent on tying the attractions together with each other and its namesake to the north.

OK, so we can't prove that any more than you can prove your contention, but what we do know is that Hogan and the Bass Pro deal has made sure it will never be that.