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ChristianConservative
10-14-2006, 03:24 PM
Is Bricktown slowing down?

Bricktown still solid, backers say
Three restaurants have closed recently

By Steve Lackmeyer
Business Writer

Three Bricktown restaurants closed in recent weeks, but the head of the merchants' association insists the entertainment district isn't losing any momentum.
All three eateries were located along the Bricktown Canal. Da'Boat, a seafood restaurant at Oklahoma Avenue, and Rio Del Fuego, a Mexican restaurant, both closed over the summer. The latest casualty, Daddy Hinkle's Steak House, also known as J. Frank's, closed earlier this month and is already being renovated into the new home of Othello's.

David Southard, owner of Daddy Hinkles, said his Bourbon Street Cafe on the canal level of the Kingman building is still thriving. He said the steakhouse was too "experimental" for Bricktown. The restaurant was a new concept, based on the instant meat marinades his father's company sells in supermarkets nationwide.

"Anytime a business comes in and isn't well developed, Bricktown is tough on it," Southard said. "I have a restaurant that is very successful in Bricktown and one that wasn't."

Another challenge, Southard said, was building up business to support the 10,000-square-foot space. In the past few months, he tried to separate the space, operating a steakhouse fronting Oklahoma Avenue and J. Frank's Bar and Grill facing the canal.

Southard said he may reopen the bar and grill in another smaller location, depending on the future of NBA basketball at the nearby Ford Center.

Charles Biehler, co-owner of Othellos in Norman, said he and his partners are relocating their Ed Noble Parkway location to Bricktown and will offer a different menu that will include steaks, seafood and Italian dishes. He's also contemplating opening a pizza shop in the Oklahoma Avenue storefront.

"This site is very good," Biehler said.

Randy Hogan, developer of Lower Bricktown, said he expects the Rio Del Fuego spot will reopen as a new eatery by Christmas. The restaurant's failure is the first in the new Lower Bricktown. Hogan said other eateries — Marble Slab Creamery, Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill and Earl's Rib Palace — are all exceeding expectations and thriving.

Brandon Bittle, who owned Rio Del Fuego, also tried changing concepts before closing his operation in Lower Bricktown. He originally opened a Nothing But Noodles, but changed it in January to a Mexican restaurant with no prior history with consumers.

"Mexican is safe," Bittle said at the time. "It's a good staple."

Bricktown visitors were skeptical at the start, questioning why an unproven Mexican restaurant would open in a district that already boasted two popular and well-known Mexican eateries — Chelinos and Abuelos.

Bittle wouldn't comment when contacted Friday. But Frank Sims, director of the Bricktown Association, thinks the visitors had the right gut instinct.

"A person needs to do due diligence when they enter an area," Sims said. "Two of our very successful restaurants are Abuelos and Chelinos, and a third Mexican restaurant was tough to pull off."

Sims said the restaurant closures do not indicate any slowing momentum in the downtown entertainment district. He said Da'Boat went through several owners, and a new restaurant announcement for the space is expected soon.

"I believe they were potentially under-capitalized, and that might have been the problem," Sims said.

Sims said the opening of The Melting Pot this winter along Sheridan Avenue in a previously undeveloped building shows Bricktown is thriving.

"That tells the story of what's going with Bricktown — we're catching national attention."

"There is a tremendous amount of interest in Bricktown. Not just restaurants, but also some retail opportunities. People are understanding that we are now a destination, no longer a place people drove through but a place they drive to. And the numbers continue to grow by leaps and bounds."

"A person needs to do due diligence when they enter an area."


Frank Sims, director of the Bricktown Association

Spartan
10-14-2006, 05:02 PM
Hornets season is coming up.

BDP
10-14-2006, 05:07 PM
I love the idea of Othello's in the Hinkle's spot. A locally owned restaurant with a known brand that doesn't have a presence in OKC proper. It might be a bit big, though, we'll see.

That could be a problem with bricktown also. They're all big properties that demand a high volume model. Maybe if we could get some more modest eateries in there that wouldn't have 80 tables to fill a night, we'd see more variety and more success.

Spartan
10-14-2006, 05:14 PM
I really liked that Hinkle's place, but whenever I was in there it just didn't seem very busy. I think part of their problem was just how they located on top of the Bourbon Street in Bricktown, which people have been going to for longer (including myself, definately my favorite place in Bricktown).

ChristianConservative
10-14-2006, 07:16 PM
Hornets season is coming up.


This is an example of a one-liner post that is serving absolutely no purpose.

ChristianConservative
10-14-2006, 07:16 PM
I really liked that Hinkle's place, but whenever I was in there it just didn't seem very busy. I think part of their problem was just how they located on top of the Bourbon Street in Bricktown, which people have been going to for longer (including myself, definately my favorite place in Bricktown).

Now, this is a useful post.

Spartan
10-14-2006, 07:32 PM
Were either of those useful?

ChristianConservative
10-14-2006, 08:20 PM
Were either of those useful?

Useful in making my point.

Spartan
10-14-2006, 08:30 PM
This is an example of a one-liner post that is serving absolutely no purpose.

OK let me complete my train of thought, which I thought was more than implied.

There was substantial evidence last Hornets season that the Hornets help Bricktown. With the upcoming Hornets season, Bricktown will be thriving once again, mark my word.

Midtowner
10-14-2006, 08:34 PM
I really liked that Hinkle's place, but whenever I was in there it just didn't seem very busy. I think part of their problem was just how they located on top of the Bourbon Street in Bricktown, which people have been going to for longer (including myself, definately my favorite place in Bricktown).

The problem was it didn't look like a real restaurant was in there. Instead of paying real money for a nice neon sign which would have advertised their existance, Hinkel's opted for vinyl signs which made them look like what they ultimately were -- a temporary tennant.

You have to spend money to make money is the old saying. It particularly rings true in Bricktown. If you want to compete with first-rate establishments, you must yourself build a first-rate establishment. If your business wants to go the vinyl sign route, you should opt for a location in a strip mall somewhere in Moore.

Also, there are two (at least) very well established steakhouses already in Bricktown. Hinkels went into an oversaturated market, offered prices comparable to their competitors, offered quality comparable to their competitors, but where they failed was letting people know they existed and showing the public why they deserved to exist.

It's laughable that the owner is saying this is just 'bad luck' or whatever. It's his own poor management that resulted in this.

I'll say it again -- you have to spend money to make money.

Spartan
10-14-2006, 08:51 PM
Da Boat had a nice neon sign. I'm sure everybody remembers their blue and red neon sign.

Midtowner
10-14-2006, 09:11 PM
I really liked Da Boat. It was a pretty good place.

I have no idea why it didn't catch on.

Spartan
10-14-2006, 09:24 PM
It's not as if it never caught on. It seemed like they were actually there for a long while.

Easy180
10-15-2006, 08:22 AM
Del Fuego was a bad idea so no surprise there...It was alright, but you have to have something exceptional to draw people away from the bricktown staples Chelinos and Abuelos

Da Boat was good...That location just hasn't had any luck for some reason

okrednk
10-15-2006, 11:12 AM
How about the chance to open up a Eskimo Joes in Bricktown? Eskimo Joes is one of the places in the state that has gotten national coverage. If your an okie and you see someone wearing that Eskimo shirt you have something in common. What yall think?

gsan
10-15-2006, 01:04 PM
This is an example of a one-liner post that is serving absolutely no purpose.

Uh oh! Be careful of the post police.

Spartan
10-15-2006, 01:08 PM
That location on Oklahoma should be in store for some better fate once they get more retail and condos there on that side of the canal.


How about the chance to open up a Eskimo Joes in Bricktown? Eskimo Joes is one of the places in the state that has gotten national coverage. If your an okie and you see someone wearing that Eskimo shirt you have something in common. What yall think?

I agree, good idea.

ChristianConservative
10-15-2006, 04:06 PM
OK let me complete my train of thought, which I thought was more than implied.

There was substantial evidence last Hornets season that the Hornets help Bricktown. With the upcoming Hornets season, Bricktown will be thriving once again, mark my word.

Very nice!

ChristianConservative
10-15-2006, 04:08 PM
How about the chance to open up a Eskimo Joes in Bricktown? Eskimo Joes is one of the places in the state that has gotten national coverage. If your an okie and you see someone wearing that Eskimo shirt you have something in common. What yall think?

Nice idea. And how about a Sooners store next door? We need more gift shops in Bricktown. More places where you can buy Sooners and Cowboys merchandise, red earth t-shirts, Native American merchandise, etc. I wish the Hornets store would've located in Bricktown.

jbrown84
10-15-2006, 09:50 PM
Eskimo Joe's has made it clear that they have no intention of locating outside of Stillwater. They are as associated with OSU as O'Connells is with OU. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it won't happen.

These restaurants going out doesn't bother me, because they will all be replaced quickly with better operations. Othello's is a proven restaurant and Al Eschbach's place should do well as long as the food is decent. And pretty much ANYTHING will do better than Rio Del Fuego in that prime location. What a waste of space that was. It was a terrible mistake to change formats without hardly giving Nothing but Noodles a chance. I'll be interested to see what goes in there. Chipotle would be nice.

metro
10-16-2006, 09:41 AM
What I don't get is why Steve L. in the Oklahoman article didn't mention that Al Aichbach's Bar & Grill is relocating in Da' Boat's spot. OKC Business and the Journal record announced this lke 2 weeks ago. I love his articles but the Oklahoman seems to be going even more downhill lately. I love this quote from the article.
David Southard, owner of Daddy Hinkles, said his Bourbon Street Cafe on the canal level of the Kingman building is still thriving. He said the steakhouse was too "experimental" for Bricktown.

What is soooooo "experimental" with another steakhouse in Bricktown. Like someone said, there are several already established for years in the area. He must be dilusional saying a steakhouse is "experimental" in Oklahoma??

Midtowner
10-16-2006, 09:43 AM
I think he means "A steakhouse which barely advertises its existance, only putting up a vinyl tarp for a sign."

Maybe that's the part that was experimental?

If Al's folds will it be due to the fact that a sports bar is too experimental?

metro
10-16-2006, 09:46 AM
Sims said the opening of The Melting Pot this winter along Sheridan Avenue in a previously undeveloped building shows Bricktown is thriving.

This line also throws me off. Good old boy Frank Sims (who by the way is the director of the Bricktown Assocation) tries to promote the Melting Pot as proof Bricktown is thriving". I have two issues with that statement. First, it was a Simply Fondue, not Melting Pot that was announced for Bricktown. Secondly, it was supposed to open last winter, then they said by Oct./Nov. this year (which clearly it won't). So my question is how is that proof Bricktown is thriving and how come the director of the Bricktown association can't get that right?

metro
10-16-2006, 03:40 PM
I emailed Simply Fondue this morning and got this canned response like I did several months ago:


Thanks for the e-mail. Yes, it is happening and we will be open before Christmas. There hasn't been any delays. However, our company did have to prioritize some of it's time lines and openings once we became so busy with the franchise side of our business. Unfortunately, Oklahoma City was one of the projects that got pushed to the back of the pile. I'll keep you posted on the progress and thank you for the inquiry.

Regards,
Lance Wilson
Simply Fondue Restaurants
Simply Fondue (http://www.simplyfondue.com)
214.878.3837

John
10-16-2006, 04:22 PM
Melting Pot is, I believe, going in the building where the police substation is currently. Simply Fondue is going next to Abuelo's.

First one in wins.

traxx
10-17-2006, 10:40 AM
I think Joe's would be great in Bricktown. No, there doesn't need to be a Sooner shop next door to it either. Joe's can just be a restaurant, it doesn't have to be partisan - and this is coming from a Sooner fan. Joe's name carries quite a bit of cache and would be perfect for the area.

We still need more retail and other things to do down there though. It's no surprise some of these are going out of business because there already are so many restaurants there. No surprise another steak house would go out of business because there's already several down there. And Fuego or whatever it was had nothing unique about it.

I know that some tried to make a go of it in retail thre, like Boone's - and it was a nice place - it just wasn't open enough and at the right times.

I also feel some of the reason for the slow down is because of Inferior Bricktown. I think alot of business owners saw what a subpar development that is and assumed that was the way Brictown was going and so opted not to go into business there.

Easy180
10-17-2006, 11:55 AM
I think Al's sports bar will do pretty well in bricktown...Daquiri Zone, Coach's and the Brewery aren't exactly places I would go to watch a game

metro
10-17-2006, 12:03 PM
You're right. I forgot Melting Pot unofficially announced they were moving in to the old police substation. In fact, I drove by yesterday and work was going on in the east portion of the building and they had a vinyl sign already outside saying Melting Pot coming soon. I emailed the guys from Simply Fondue as you can see from my previous email from yesterday, however no work has gone on in months and no sign is out. In fact there website doesn't even mention an OKC location anymore and Melting Pot's does.

scotplum
10-17-2006, 03:19 PM
I went to Daddy Hinkles twice and I thought it was horrible. Price wise, I thought it beat MM and The Mantel but the quality comparisons weren't even close, in my opinion. Add to that poor service and an atmosphere that really didn't do much for me and I'm not shocked that it couldn't make it. I'd much rather Othello's go in at that spot anyway.

Lauri101
10-17-2006, 05:40 PM
I emailed Simply Fondue this morning and got this canned response like I did several months ago:


Thanks for the e-mail. Yes, it is happening and we will be open before Christmas. There hasn't been any delays. However, our company did have to prioritize some of it's time lines and openings once we became so busy with the franchise side of our business. Unfortunately, Oklahoma City was one of the projects that got pushed to the back of the pile. I'll keep you posted on the progress and thank you for the inquiry.

If this is the best Simply Fondue can do in communication, then I vote for Melting Pot. "There hasn't been any delays" ?? "Pushed to the back of the pile" ?? Perhaps ol' Lance might want to invest in a grammer primer!

fsusurfer
10-18-2006, 08:20 AM
The building has a melting pot sign in the window and major renovation is going on inside. Across the street, where simply fondue is supposed to be located, looks dead.

fsusurfer
10-18-2006, 08:24 AM
sorry just pretty much repeated metros post...but simply fondues web site does still say opening soon in Oklahoma City.

OSUFlounder
10-18-2006, 08:54 AM
We went to Da Boat twice. First time is was awful service, honestly the worst I've ever had at a restaurant but the food was great! Second time it was bad service again and the my boyfriend's food was cold. Although I liked the idea, I wish they had implemented it better.

metro
10-18-2006, 11:51 AM
sorry just pretty much repeated metros post...but simply fondues web site does still say opening soon in Oklahoma City.

No prob. Anyhow when I checked it, it didn't mention OKC anywhere, I searched forever on it for 2 days. After my 4th round of emails, perhaps they decided to update it.

traxx
10-18-2006, 01:51 PM
What's the big deal about Simply Fondue? I've never been to one, can someone please explain? It seems we've got alot of chains in the city, we don't need anymore. We need more original restaurants, especially in downtown. You know, stuff that you can't get anywhere else, that people will come here to eat at.

Easy180
10-18-2006, 02:17 PM
Traxx...The Melting Pot is good stuff....Their cheese and chocolate fondues are excellent and there is nothing like steak and shrimp cooked in their stocks or broths...Everything we have ever had was excellent


Doesn't feel like a chain at all and their service is top notch...Very unique dining experience

metro
10-18-2006, 04:34 PM
And besides all that, OKC currently does not have any fondue restaurant at the present time, it will offer something different and unique. Although I dislike chains too, Bricktown needs something besides burgers, steaks, Mexican or Italian

Karried
10-18-2006, 05:16 PM
LOL

Lauri101, that was exactly what I was thinking when I read that email response!

Fondue sounds wonderful right now with this cool weather.. melted cheese and crusty french bread...mmmmm I'm hungry.

OKCNDN
10-18-2006, 09:05 PM
I hate to say this but.................I think a low-priced ($4.00-6.00) fast-food restaurant would do big-time business in the Del Fuego location. I have heard many groups say something similar to "Is Sonic all there is for those that don't want a sit-down restaurant meal in Bricktown?".

I worked at Sonic HQ for 6 months and the Sonic restaurant was very busy during lunch and when I got off work at 4:00. With the movie theater right next door people would be looking for a cheap place to eat before or after their show. There just isn't someplace for people to go for a real quick bite, other than the Sonic. McD's, Wendy's, heck even Del Rancho would do great there I think.

But I know that's not what people are looking for in Bricktown.

Bricktown needs more foottraffic. That would of helped the other restaurants survive.

The art museum, Native American museum or Oklahoma History museum would have been a great addition to bricktown, as far as adding foottraffic.

bandnerd
10-18-2006, 09:13 PM
You know, I have honestly never had fondue. I think anything dipped in cheese is divine. Even cheese dipped in cheese lol.

I'd love to go to the Melting Pot once it's been open awhile, maybe let some of the hub-bub calm down.

As for a fast food restaurant...maybe we could stick to something local instead of a national chain? I mean, how many more Taco Bells or Subways do we really need? But a classy faster place might go well. But the Noodles place was pretty fast, too...I liked their mac and cheese, was sad to see it go. Never tried Rio.

John
10-18-2006, 10:37 PM
Not to thread jack, but speaking of fast food in (near) Bricktown... a Subway would be a good fit in one of the loading docks of the old train station, if they ever get that done.

I saw a guy painting some trim work today on top of the balcony, maybe that is a sign of progress?

Also, a good fit for the old Nothing but Noodles/Rio del Fuego location (besides an obvious Chipotle), would be a Camille's Sidewalk Cafe. Good food, pretty quick, & inexpensive.

y_h
10-19-2006, 07:16 AM
I hate to say this but.................I think a low-priced ($4.00-6.00) fast-food restaurant would do big-time business in the Del Fuego location.

Don't hate to say it . . . it happens to be true. Any successful district like Bricktown aspires to be needs a variety of food service options. You certainly want to have your sit-down anchors (with a range of casual and upscale options there as well) but you also want to have the fast food/fast casual option as well. Heck, a few street food vendors (especially ethnic street food) would also be helpful. That broadens the district's appeal greatly. It works well on San Francisco's Pier 39, the Universal Citywalk in LA and the relatively new shopping/entertainment district in Tampa (out by the airport - its name escapes me for the moment).

traxx
10-19-2006, 07:29 AM
I can see the point of a fondue place adding something totally different to OKC. But the arguement that we need one because we currently don't have one is a double edged sword. We shoudln't want something just because every other city has it, then we become an also ran. Heck, if they had restaurants that served fried turds, should we put in one of those because OKC currently doesn't have one?

Camille's is a good idea for the spot next to Sonic, however it is not necessarily inexpensive.

And as much as I like local businesses investing in Oklahoma, I'm upset at Sonic because I think that restaurant has such a crappy deco. I'm sure it does a great lunch time business because it's quick and cheap, but they could have made the inside look a little cooler. It's obvious they don't know how to do sit down restaurants.

Easy180
10-19-2006, 07:45 AM
traxx...my argument is OKC doesn't have a fondue restaurant...fondue is good so I want one here

I am open to any restaurant coming in that we currently don't have in the metro area...Even fried turds :tiphat:

The three businesses that just closed were locals and weren't patronized evidently so it's not bad sprinkling in successful chains in bricktown...Still plenty of room

ChristianConservative
10-19-2006, 08:53 AM
Simply Fondue should do well. Fondue is the in thing right now.

metro
10-19-2006, 01:02 PM
I thought that Brewer announced Camille's Sidewalk Cafe already for the train station depot (as someone said if that ever opens, a Cingular was also announced there)

John
10-19-2006, 01:17 PM
I thought that Brewer announced Camille's Sidewalk Cafe already for the train station depot (as someone said if that ever opens, a Cingular was also announced there)

You're right, I just don't know if that thing will ever get off the ground...

March of '07 would be a good target date for a lot of 'proposed' items.

BDP
10-20-2006, 10:14 AM
I think a low-priced ($4.00-6.00) fast-food restaurant would do big-time business in the Del Fuego location.

What about a Johnnie's Express? I know many of our expatriates crave it and put it high on their list of "need to do's" when back in town and you pretty much have to go to the boonies to get it. As for national chains, Johnnie Rocket's always seem to do well in places like lower bricktown. I figure that Sonic probably has a non-compete clause in their lease, so a real burger joint probably won't happen. I like the cafe/deli ideas, though.

Even though Del Fuego failed and there is plenty of Mexican in bricktown, I think a real burrito place would be good, like a Chipotle, La Salsa, Baja Fresh, etc. I know I'd eat there a lot.

I think a sub place would work as well, but I'd like to see a real sub place and not just another meatless Subway.

I think another good idea would be a NY style pizza by the slice place. There's a great one on May called Falcone's run by a guy who grew up in NY's Little Italy. It seems to be doing well, maybe someone could suggest it to him... He also has some Italian deli items and sandwiches.

I'd rather not see fast food downtown, either, but let's face it, that's the direction lower brick town has taken and Sonic is already there, so it wouldn't be the first time.

OKCNDN
10-20-2006, 02:33 PM
Johnnie's isn't the "cheap" restaurant I was thinking of.

Johnnie's is expensive especially when you recall that it's a fast-food burger joint. $7-9 bucks a meal. The other night three of us stopped there and it nearly $30 for just us three!!!

I was thinking something cheap ($4-6).

There are many people (elderly, movie-goer's, school children on a field trip, large family's, etc.) that can't afford $7 bucks a meal. Something cheap would do real good. That's why Sonic does good business.

Either way that locale is great. You can get people from the movie's, baseball fans, Hornets fans to come in and eat. You can get more than just people who come in specifically to eat.

Luke
10-20-2006, 06:17 PM
Dairy Queen

fromdust
10-20-2006, 07:54 PM
[QUOTE=BDP;71405]

I think another good idea would be a NY style pizza by the slice place. There's a great one on May called Falcone's run by a guy who grew up in NY's Little Italy. It seems to be doing well, maybe someone could suggest it to him... He also has some Italian deli items and sandwiches.

YES! YES! that place is awesome! that would be really great for bt. the people on this site would love it for the simple fact that its not chain.
great food and awesome decor. falcone's :bow:

metro
10-21-2006, 09:15 PM
BDP, speaking of good NYC style pizza by the slice, you have to check out Gaetano's in Edmond off of 15th and Broadway.

jbrown84
10-22-2006, 12:32 PM
There's a good NY Style pizza by the slice place I went to in Colorado Springs in one of their nice shopping centers. I don't remember the name.

City Bites would be cool for that spot. It's local, fast, somewhat cheap, and has a cool, unique atmosphere.

Midtowner
10-22-2006, 01:50 PM
City Bites would be terrific -- and you can actually get stuff there that's good for you unlike most of Bricktown.

jbrown84
10-22-2006, 02:28 PM
true true.


I have to say I have been in the situation where I wished there was more fast food in Bricktown. Not for the price--I expect to pay higher dollar in an entertainment district, but just for the speed. Usually it's when I'm on my way to a movie or other event and I just want to eat quick.

BDP
10-23-2006, 02:40 PM
There are many people (elderly, movie-goer's, school children on a field trip, large family's, etc.) that can't afford $7 bucks a meal. Something cheap would do real good. That's why Sonic does good business.

Ok, I understand what you are saying, but do we really expect our centerpiece "entertainment" district to be dirt cheap? I think $7-9 is a pretty reasonable price for the area. But, that being said, maybe it has to be cheap to work in OKC. I would just rather see something better than things Sonic, McD, Taco Bueno, etc. fill our signature district.


I have to say I have been in the situation where I wished there was more fast food in Bricktown. Not for the price--I expect to pay higher dollar in an entertainment district, but just for the speed. Usually it's when I'm on my way to a movie or other event and I just want to eat quick.

I think this is a good point and the area around the theater is prime for eat and go type food.

I just keep wishing we could do it differently there than what is in all of our malls and on every corner of our city. I know I sound like a broken record here, but bricktown and even lower bricktown should be used as the city's opportunity to expand its choices, not just duplicate everything we already have (not that you were suggesting that).

metro
10-25-2006, 04:18 PM
For your viewing pleasure I posted pics of Bricktown RAW and Othello's in my gallery:

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=204

BailJumper
10-26-2006, 04:40 AM
I just ate at a lil italian place on May, just North of 64rd. Used to be a dentists office. Very small and good quality food. Pizza by the slice for about $2.80.

You're gonna think I'm nuts, but one of my favorites is pizza by the slice from Sam's Club. You get two pieces and a drink for somewhere around $2 and it really is good.

jbrown84
10-26-2006, 10:57 AM
What is RAW?

Easy180
10-26-2006, 10:58 AM
I believe it is the new sushi place in bricktown