Biggest needs on our city:

Needs:
1. City-wide beautification (helps all of the below)
2. Continued improvement of our schools above and beyond MAPS for Kids
3. Continued appropriate funding for our police and fire depts.
4. Continued expansion of our public library system
5. Continued work on luring high-paying jobs to the metro
6. Continued improvement of our inner city with city-help.
7. Continued improvements at the fairgrounds (the return on this investment is huge).


Items that have been listed that are neat but that we have no use for at the moment, and would only drain money away from the above areas:
1. NFL football stadiums
2. 60 gate airports
3. lengthened canal
4. commuter rail
5. Symbols like huge Native American statues or oil
towers
6. Helping private companies who can otherwise fund
their own construction

I would move #5 on needs to #1

I would move #5 on needs to #1

Oh, those weren't in any specific order.

I would remove #4 and #7 and put them down with the neat list

And change your #6 of the neat list to the needs list and have it read:

Helping private companies who wouldn't otherwise consider relocating or expanding into OKC w/o the incentives

I would remove #4 and #7 and put them down with the neat list

And change your #6 of the neat list to the needs list and have it read:

Helping private companies who wouldn't otherwise consider relocating or expanding into OKC w/o the incentives

I disagree with moving #7. Our State Fairgrounds produce huge sums of money for our city. Much work still needs to be done to improve the fairgrounds. If we don't continue to improve the fairgrounds, the horse shows will leave. That will be millions and millions of dollars lost every year.

I could see possibly taking #4 off the list.

In regards to #6 I don't think luring a Bass Pro Shops was really a NEED for our city.

Agreed with Patrick on the Oklahoma State Fairgrounds.

I would favor city-assistance of private companies if it meant more higher-paying jobs for the metro, but giving assistance to Bass Pro is not a need for Oklahoma City. We are no better off with Bass Pro than we were before Bass Pro.

Bass Pro is only one example and that was done to bring in an anchor for Bricktown so it was somewhat unique

I would favor city-assistance of private companies if it meant more higher-paying jobs for the metro, but giving assistance to Bass Pro is not a need for Oklahoma City. We are know better off with Bass Pro than we were before Bass Pro.

I'd say we're actually worse off. We have a chain store which does okay (not great) taking up a huge amount of land in OKC's best entertainment district.

Spending public money in pursuit of an operation which brings a lot of $7.00/hr jobs is not a good way to spend public money.

Of course, at the time, Gaylord Entertainment owned a 1/3 stake in Bass Pro, so I think we can probably guess why and how this project happened the way it did.

So the hourly pay should be the sole factor in deciding which companies to go after?...Was there better companies lined up at the door that would be better suited for bricktown?

So the hourly pay should be the sole factor in deciding which companies to go after?...Was there better companies lined up at the door that would be better suited for bricktown?

Yes and no. David Cordish had a plan on the table to bring high end retail to Bricktown, stores like Gucci, Saks, etc. And he was going to finance all of the construction HIMSELF without the need for city subsidies.

Randy Hogan promised when he was awarded the development deed that he could "finance every square inch of the project and lease it back." If that was true, why didn't Randy put up the money to build Bass Pro? Why did the city have to step in?

I'd say we're actually worse off. We have a chain store which does okay (not great) taking up a huge amount of land in OKC's best entertainment district.

Tulsa was smarter. They said no to Bass Pro. Instead, a Tulsa suburb, Broken Arrow, put up the money. Bass Pro fits better in suburbia than in an urban area.

So the hourly pay should be the sole factor in deciding which companies to go after?...Was there better companies lined up at the door that would be better suited for bricktown?

I'd rather take Tulsa's strategy: demand better. If this were Tulsa they would've voted down Bass Pro, and waited out for a better plan. In OKC we are too much in a hurry, and this results in second class developments.

I still haven't figured out why we the taxpayers thought it was a good idea to give money to Hogan to build luxury offices on Lake Hefner for the wealthy business owners. I bet the owners of the building where my corp. leases space would've liked a free hand out.

That's a pretty good list, Conservative. I especially like the beautification which is rarely considered important. Making this city LOOK like a city with distinctive architecture and scenery is crucial. We must accept the fact that we were built on the southern plains and our natural "beauty" is not one of our assets. Too many people come here and have nice things to say, but also add, "It's not much to look at though." (Or some variation thereof.)

------------

So there isn't any room now for a "better" company to come into Bricktown?...Why not bring in Bass Pro along with others...Not that OKC doled out their only available money to Bass Pro

That's a good list Conservative and I think your points about Bass Pro are dead on. In addition to issues of the role of government in corporate aid, that was a weak move on just about every level. It also set a bad precedent for lower bricktown and now it can't even achieve the density of store fronts needed to make it a viable retail location.

I think the fairgrounds is a good point as well. Whether anyone likes it or not, we have a huge state fairgrounds right in the middle of our city. It is really one of the most visible things in our city. It also brings in a lot of outsiders with money to spend in our city. Given its location, there is really no reason it shouldn't be one of the best in the country. It is as vital to our convention business as is the Ford and the Cox. It's not going away in any of our lifetimes and, as long as it is there, I think our goal should be to make it a jewel of the city.

Fairground do not have to be just dirty, stinky, dusty, and gravelly facilities that are used sporadically. There is also a lot of unused or underused land there that could be rethought. It also doesn't have to be limited to gun shows, tractor pulls, and carnival rides. It could have a museum campus, a civic park, a grand amphitheater or other unique attractions that make it a year round destination for locals to go along with its function as a special events campus. I think if we stop thinking of it as just a fairgrounds, it's potential begins to grow.

That's a pretty good list, Conservative. I especially like the beautification which is rarely considered important. Making this city LOOK like a city with distinctive architecture and scenery is crucial. We must accept the fact that we were built on the southern plains and our natural "beauty" is not one of our assets. Too many people come here and have nice things to say, but also add, "It's not much to look at though." (Or some variation thereof.)

------------

You'd be surprised how much corporations look at city beautification when they consider locating in a town. One of the reasons my corporation chose Oklahoma City over Dallas was due to the litter problems in Dallas. Of course, that wasn't near the top of our list, but it was still considered.

So there isn't any room now for a "better" company to come into Bricktown?...Why not bring in Bass Pro along with others...Not that OKC doled out their only available money to Bass Pro

So do you want to invte Wal-Mart to build next door to Bass Pro? A big box retailer is a big box retailer. Bass Pro is nothing more than a big box subruban retail store located in the middle of what's supposed to be an urban downtown district. A complete waste of the MAPS Use Tax Money IMO.

That's a good list Conservative and I think your points about Bass Pro are dead on. In addition to issues of the role of government in corporate aid, that was a weak move on just about every level. It also set a bad precedent for lower bricktown and now it can't even achieve the density of store fronts needed to make it a viable retail location.

At the very least, if they were going to build a Bass Pro Shop Store in Bricktown, it should've been on the canal, with a parking garage in the rear. The current store sets a bad example for an "urban" entertainment district.


I think the fairgrounds is a good point as well. Whether anyone likes it or not, we have a huge state fairgrounds right in the middle of our city. It is really one of the most visible things in our city. It also brings in a lot of outsiders with money to spend in our city. Given its location, there is really no reason it shouldn't be one of the best in the country. It is as vital to our convention business as is the Ford and the Cox. It's not going away in any of our lifetimes and, as long as it is there, I think our goal should be to make it a jewel of the city.

Our fairgrounds, while host to a lot of horse shows, still needs major work. Theres no reason why we shouldn't be in a position to try to steal the National Finals Rodeo back from Las Vegas. Whether people like it or not, the horse industry means big bucks to our state.


Fairground do not have to be just dirty, stinky, dusty, and gravelly facilities that are used sporadically. There is also a lot of unused or underused land there that could be rethought. It also doesn't have to be limited to gun shows, tractor pulls, and carnival rides. It could have a museum campus, a civic park, a grand amphitheater or other unique attractions that make it a year round destination for locals to go along with its function as a special events campus. I think if we stop thinking of it as just a fairgrounds, it's potential begins to grow.

I don't understand why we can't make our fairgrounds a first class facility. This is my goal as a member of the fair board. When I think of our fairground, I think of the dirt parking lots, gravel parking lots, overgrown grass, fading paint, deteriorating grand stand, unappealing buildings, etc. We can do better.

You'd be surprised how much corporations look at city beautification when they consider locating in a town.

Very true. Corporations compete for qualified workers. These workers are going to live in that community. Most people want to make their lives in a beautiful place, especially if they have the opportunity to make a choice. Corporations know that if they locate their facilities in an undesirable place, they will have trouble recruiting the best workers.

Whether people like it or not, the horse industry means big bucks to our state.

No doubt. These are people that have a lot of disposable income, obviously, and they spend it when they're in town.


I don't understand why we can't make our fairgrounds a first class facility. This is my goal as a member of the fair board. When I think of our fairground, I think of the dirt parking lots, gravel parking lots, overgrown grass, fading paint, deteriorating grand stand, unappealing buildings, etc. We can do better.

It's good that we have someone like you working on the board that recognizes its potential and doesn't want to settle on its current condition.


At the very least, if they were going to build a Bass Pro Shop Store in Bricktown, it should've been on the canal, with a parking garage in the rear. The current store sets a bad example for an "urban" entertainment district.

No doubt. I for one know that the development on the lower canal is about as opposite as you can get from what I envisioned when the canal was proposed. At this point I don't even know why the canal is there when the developers have such a blatant disregard for it. Did anyone really imagine that the canal would be fronted by a parking lot anywhere on its path? It's crazy that no one ever zoned the canal to forbid surface parking within 100 yards of it, or how about even 100 feet?

I always kind of laugh when people say Bass Pro was publicly financed so it could anchor retail on the lower canal. What retail is it anchoring??? There's not even any additional retail space for it to anchor! OK, so, the Sonic building has one retail tenant (Firefly. HA, I'm sure those two places have a lot of crossover ;) ) and maybe, maybe room for a couple of more and I'm pretty sure that everyone else there is there for the movie theater traffic, which is much broader. Basically, we bought a battleship anchor for a bass boat.

It's pretty obvious that it was a scam, as many suspected at the time.

I think the last chance for a nice canal development would be if all the parking is moved south when I-40 moves and all of the current surface parking developed.

I can't begin to list all my friends from out of town that were disgusted by a Bass Pro at the very end of the Bricktown district...I can see your arguments if it was next to the Brewery, but it's on the very end of the district so it does little to damage the urban look of bricktown

Hell I would much rather have a Dave and Busters there, but I can picture much worse things in Bass's place

I still laugh out loud when I think of all the talk how the Bass Pro was the key to the whole project. The key to what project? Many other developers have built better developments around the city and in Edmond and it didn't take Bass Pro to make it happen.

Randy Hogan is a fraud and should be run out of town.

Yeah Bricktown is really struggling right now

Yeah Bricktown is really struggling right now

Actually, Bricktown is struggling. The businesses down there have seen profts decline, and crowds flocking to Bricktown have decreased.

but it's on the very end of the district so it does little to damage the urban look of bricktown

Think of the opportunity cost. It basically stunted lower bricktown's possibility of being anything special like bricktown proper is. If people told you that we were going to use public money to build a canal so we could front it with parking for a Bass Pro that we would publicly finance, you honestly can tell me that you think that would be the best way to develop the land adjacent to the city's central entertainment district and possibly the most valuable retail land in the city? Lower bricktown is nothing that the thriving metropolis of Moore Oklahoma couldn’t do. In fact, they’re doing just about the same thing without publicly financing it.

Lower Bricktown, beginning with Bass Pro, has been a HUGE lost opportunity that we actually paid for. As a thriving retail center (the way it was pitched) it is looking like a lost cause.

Lower Bricktown, beginning with Bass Pro, has been a HUGE lost opportunity that we actually paid for. As a thriving retail center (the way it was pitched) it is looking like a lost cause.

You're preaching to the choir! Right on, brother!

Still have to keep in mind companies aren't beating down the door to come here

Still have to keep in mind companies aren't beating down the door to come here


I we were going to subsidize a private retailer to come here, my first choice wouldn't have been Bass Pro Shops. If we're going to subsidize Bass Pro, why not subsidize Jim Tolbert to build a unbique book store downtown? Or Crest Foods to locate a small grocery store downtown? Or Balliets to locate a unique clothing store downtown? Who in the heck decided it was appropriate to put a mega-hunting and fishing store in the middle of downtown?

What major company that is currently or was interested at that time in coming to Oklahoma would you rather have in that spot at the very end of bricktown?

I personally think a small shopping village, or a craft village would've fit better than one big-box retailer.

This is a very wide question, almost begging the question, "What is life?"

Biggest need is stylish mass transportation at this point. All the development in the world will follow after that point.

Actually, Bricktown is struggling. The businesses down there have seen profts decline, and crowds flocking to Bricktown have decreased.


Do you have any links to say that? I am not doubting what you say, but I find it a bit hard to believe. Specific businesses may be having problems, but I think overall the money is still there.

What I HAVE heard is a certain bar down town has driven off a lot of business. Also the north side of OKC is really picking up as far as entertainment with more bars and restaurants opening up so there is a bit more competition for the entertainment dollar.

This is Academy's argument all over again. Bass Pro isn't just a store; it was meant to be an attraction in itself already. Even urbanites like myself have tooled around the ATVs, boats, and golf clubs. I will probably never purchase something at Bass Pro, but it's still fun to walk around.

Whether or not it is the catalyst for LB is debatable, but LB was a lost cause before then. IMO, when Hogan decided to develop it in pad sites, the chance for a new urban environment ended. Instead formulating a master plan with buildings forming an urban wall around the canal, he did it piecemeal. This alone isn't a crime; it's the fact that it looks piecemeal. Instead of empty spaces within new buildings you have empty lots between standalone buildings, ala suburbia.

Anyway, I second the ideas of bringing in local retailers and a craft village. That is the answer to Spartan's question about what to do at that end. Destroy Bass Pro, keep that inlet, and develop around it. Have storefronts facing that and Reno. Bricktown is in desparate need of diversions and shopping.

Still have to keep in mind companies aren't beating down the door to come here

Where would they go!? There never was any plan to even build buildings which would house any retail, so the retail anchor pitch was a lie and a scam from the beginning. Basically, there was no plan at all. If you were a business, especially a very successful retail business, would you commit a location in a development with no plan?

Like you said, they weren't knocking down the door to locate here and we did the exact opposite thing we should have done: we publicly financed a big box store, which committed a lot of the prime property along the canal to parking, and established ZERO plan to foster retail in the area. There isn't even any plans for anything that could be considered a plaza or retail oriented facility. Basically, we were sold Bass Pro as a retail anchor for an area that had absolutely no plan to even become a retail district. Forget that Bass Pro is a ridiculous anchor for an urban retail district to begin with, there is no retail district at all and there was no plan for one when we bought into it.

No doubt bricktown has lost some steam and that has a lot to do with the strange ideas by developers. Again, there is no large competition for access into bricktown, yet rental rates are that of a full district doing above average volume per square feet. If people aren’t begging to come here, why do we keep hearing about developers turning away locals and entrepreneurs?

There is a reason that large nationals are not knocking down the door to locate there and it’s because it’s poorly managed and half assed at best. National chains want to see comprehensive plans. To this day, there is not one for lower bricktown and its ability to attract big name tenants will not get any better until it gets one.

It seems like all of the buildings Hogan built have been leased. In the original plans, I always thought 3 or 4 story buildings with open retail space for lease were part of the plan. At least that's what the pictures showed.

Take the open pad spot next to Toby Keiths. Why can't Hogan just build a 6 story building, lease out the top 4 floors to private offices, and lease the lower two floors to retail and restaurants? I don't see what's so hard about that.

Instead of having pad sites for certain restaurants to locate, he should've built large buildings and leased out the space. Toby Keiths should have never been a stand alone building. It should've been located in a larger building with other tenants.

Oh, there was a plan for a huge retail district, but it wasn't from Hogan.

The reason I always liked Moshe Tal's plan was because he had certain sections of Lower Bricktown designated for certain types of development, which he called "nodes." And he actually had a master plan that was to be completed over a 10 year time frame, something Urban Renewal thought was too long and ambitious at that time, but now we're seeing it's taken Hogan at least that long to throw together his joke of a development.

Where the theater and Centennial Building is currently located was slated for a high rise Marriott Hotel (20-30 stories) and a 3 level shopping mall, for upscale shops (would've been about the size of the Galleria Mall in Dallas). Where the Sonic Building is located was slated for ESPN Zone and Hard Rock Cafe, both of which David Cordish had agreements from to build here. They would've been part of the lower level of the extending mall/retail building which would've been connected over the canal by skybridges.

Underneath the mall would've been a 4 level parking garage, and above the parking garage inside the mall would've been an 8-10 screen movie theater, plenty large for that area IMHO.

Where the Bass Pro Shop now sits would've been a Country Music Hall of Fame and Auditorium Center, larger than Toby Keith's and more versatile in uses. Toby Keith's probably could've leased out the bottom level. Next door would've been the internation HQ for the International Gymnastics Hall of Fame, which is now in the First National Center. Both of these "nodes", as he called them, would've been built right up on the canal.

Where the movie theater lot now sits was slated to be the Arts and Crafts village, a series of small buildings similar to Paseo only more in a village arrangement. He had agreements from some of the artists in Paseo to set up 2nd retail locations there. In the same area would've been a permanent Farmer's Market.

Unlike Hogan, Tal had plans south of I-40 and designated this an area for mixed use, where he planned a residential tower and an office tower, both with retail and restaurant space for lease on the bottom floors. He envisioned the canal switching from a more entertainment-oriented venue up north, to a more park-like, neighborhood setting farther south.

David Cordish was going to build and finance all of this, and lease out the space as he signed on tenants. Total investment was well over $400 million at the time....probably would've been almost double this now with inflation.

Now, we basically have no space for lease, except maybe some in the Sonic Building, but that isn't as conducive to retail/restaurant uses.

There were NO surface lots included in the plan, as the buildings were so densely packed into the land that there wouldn't have been space.

Here are the pictures we were promised from Hogan:

http://www.specialtyretail.net/issues/dec98/images/brick.jpg

http://www.specialtyretail.net/issues/dec98/images/brick2.jpg

Entertainment’s OK in


Oklahoma City’s Bricktown District

Entertainment and specialty retail will find another home in America’s heartland with the anticipated spring 2000 opening of Bricktown Entertainment Center in the old warehouse district of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

http://www.specialtyretail.net/issues/dec98/images/brick.jpg
The $120 million, 400,000-square-foot project under design by Perkowitz + Ruth Architects, Inc. (949-721-8904), will revolve around a $30 million, 22-screen Edwards megaplex theater featuring an IMAX 3D component, plus 75,000 to 80,000 square feet of retail and restaurants in phase one, a colorful boulevard with kiosks for retailers, cafes, a high-tech video arcade, a new canal weaving through the complex, and extensive landscaping. Phase two includes a mid-size hotel and additional retail.
Names of other tenants were not released, but project sources said they have an eye on a high-tech restaurant/entertainment entity that would occupy 40,000 square feet.


Crafting a Visionary Oasis
"We are crafting what should be a visionary oasis where a diversity of entertainment, retail and commercial elements will attract local residents and visitors to a very special destination," commented Marios Savopoulos, director of design at Perkowitz + Ruth’s Newport Beach office.
The project’s developer is TMK/Hogan (405-270-4659), a joint venture between Hogan Property Management LLC of Oklahoma City and Stonegate Management Co., of Birmingham, Alabama, a wholly owned subsidiary of Torchmark Co., a publicly traded insurance and diversified financial services holding company.
Bricktown is the name given to the city’s warehouse district for its predominance of brick buildings. The Bricktown Entertainment Center is being built on 50 acres of vacant land where some of the smaller warehouse buildings once stood but were acquired and demolished by the city over the years. The new center will continue the theme with the liberal use of decorative brick, cobblestone-like pavers, slate accents and textured concrete, and will expand on an already popular community of restaurants in downtown Oklahoma City. According to Randy Hogan of Hogan Property Management, the warehouse district began converting to restaurants and office uses many years ago and now contains a variety of trendy spots such as Spaghetti Warehouse, Obuelo’s, Chilini’s, Bricktown Brewery and Crabtown.


Area Attractions Draw Crowds
Visitors to Bricktown topped 3.6 million in 1997, Hogan said, partly due to the restaurant traffic and partly for a series of events such as the annual Blues Festival and the July 4th celebration, which draws 40,000 to 60,000 people each year. The University of Oklahoma in Norman is a half-hour drive away and provides considerable customer flow on weekends, Hogan said.
At the core of Bricktown Entertainment Center will stand the 134,000-square-foot Edwards Theatres complex framed by two enclosed lobbies ­ a grand lobby for entrance and tickets, followed by an inner lobby for concessions. The 22 screens will accommodate 6,000 customers in extra-wide seats with state-of-the-art projection and audio equipment. Hogan said Edwards expects to draw 1.5 million viewers annually, adding that he hopes the Bricktown Center will boost the district’s total traffic to between 5 million and 7 million.
The nearest comparable movie theater is a new 20-screen Cinemark Tinseltown about four miles away in the northeast sector of the city, according to David Jones of the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority (OCURA). "There may be an old movie theater closer in, but I don’t think so," Jones said, adding that he considers the Cinemark theater "a bit of a gamble" because there has been little retail development in that area, whereas Bricktown has an established traffic flow.


http://www.specialtyretail.net/issues/dec98/images/brick2.jpg
Massive Infusion of Public Funds

Bricktown’s revitalization is the result of a "massive infusion of public funds over the past 10 years," Jones said, transforming the area from a vast array of abandoned buildings to a thriving office and entertainment district by beefing up police patrols, improving streets and lighting and funding new public buildings. Yet to come in the district are a Hammond Hotel, a Renaissance Marriott and the new arena, all within walking distance of the entertainment project, he said.
Phase one, which also will include 75,000 to 80,000 square feet of retail and restaurants, Savopoulos said, is expected to cost about $47 million, including the canal and public amenities. In the second phase will be a mid-size hotel and additional retail, bringing the total project price tag to $120 million. The cost of the hotel alone could be $70 million to $80 million, he said.
"As conceived by the development and design team, Bricktown will emerge as a signature destination, enhanced by the use of theatrical lighting design, colorful building materials and a landscaping concept orchestrated with every architectural and planning element of the project," Savopoulos said.


Architects Help Set the Ambience
Perkowitz + Ruth is working with city officials on the design and construction of canal walks, fountains and plazas to provide the links between Bricktown Entertainment Center features and the rest of the Bricktown area. Bricktown is one of nine projects in a massive downtown revitalization project being conducted by the OCURA (405-235-3771). Public contributions to this project include a $28 million AAA baseball stadium for the Oklahoma Redhawks and an $18 million canal bringing water from the North Canadian River almost a mile away, according to Garner Stoll, city planning director.
The baseball stadium is directly across the street from the Bricktown Entertainment Center site, and a proposed 20,000-seat arena for ice hockey, basketball and other indoor events will be at the western end of the site. The canal, which will be accessible to the boating public, will enter the site from the north and weave through, passing directly across the front of the theater in a bowl-like public plaza, surrounded by broad brick-stepped terraces, which could be used as an amphitheater for outdoor stage events.
The public projects are being paid for through a Metropolitan Area Project (MAPS) tax program consisting of a one percent sales tax for five years that is expected to net $360 million. Other projects include a fairgrounds, a new convention center, a hockey/basketball arena, renovations to the performing arts center, a new library, reconstruction of the bombed-out Federal Building and the surrounding area, plus a memorial and museum related to the Federal Building bombing.


$24 Million (Private) for a Museum
A unique feature is a $24 million art museum being built downtown entirely with non-public funds, including $6 million from the Kirkpatrick Foundation, to replace the current city-owned museum located by the fairgrounds on the edge of the city, and which is too small to display all the art it owns, Stoll said.
The MAPS program ­ which originally anticipated $240 million and has now grown to $360 million ­ ends in January, 1999, and will result in debt-free financing for the public projects, although city officials are seeking an extension of the MAPS tax because they need about $11 million more.


Striking the Deal
TMK/Hogan and Edwards Theatres Circuits Inc. paid $3 million for the land they will use, but the Urban Redevelopment Authority put that $3 million back into development of amenities along the canal. "You could say they got free land," said Stoll.
City council has set a January deadline for final development contracts to be executed, and groundbreaking will follow, according to Stoll. The final choice by the city council of TMK/Hogan was "a very controversial selection," Stoll said. The developer had been selected already, when a competing proposal from another local firm forced a showdown. A council vote to reconsider the developer selection ended in a 5-4 vote in favor of TMK/Hogan last May. Wounds from that battle are "healing," said Stoll.

"This is our first entertainment center," Hogan said. "We’re fairly active in retail in the area," he said, noting that his firm represents Home Depot in the Oklahoma City area and is developing a waterfront restaurant on nearby Lake Hefner. Torchmark developed Rancho LaQuinta Country Club in LaQuinta, California, where the "Skins" game is played, and Liberty Park, a 2,500 acre upscale planned community in Vestavia Hills, Alabama, outside Birmingham. The development includes retail and office complexes of a traditional nature.
Management and leasing will be handled by TMK/Hogan and financing is not yet settled, Hogan said. "We have a couple of options, with letters of intent. We’ll start on that next month." Groundbreaking for the Edwards Theater is scheduled for April, 1999, and the grand opening is set for April, 2000.

Some of Tal's plans are good, but also included those dreaded chain restaurants that some of you guys don't want in bricktown....I could also do w/o the country hall of fame

And why steal business from the Paseo district if we could just as easily go there

Good and bad in both developers plans, but there is no guarantee Tals plans would have turned out any better

I don't know who would have done better, but I just don't have any major problems with how bricktown is turning out...Still enjoy going there

I could also do w/o the country hall of fame

Would've been better than Toby Keith's restaurant.


Good and bad in both developers plans, but there is no guarantee Tals plans would have turned out any better

Couldn't have been any worse.


I don't know who would have done better, but I just don't have any major problems with how bricktown is turning out...

Then you must like the suburbs.

Some of Tal's plans are good, but also included those dreaded chain restaurants that some of you guys don't want in bricktown....I could also do w/o the country hall of fame

And why steal business from the Paseo district if we could just as easily go there

Good and bad in both developers plans, but there is no guarantee Tals plans would have turned out any better

I don't know who would have done better, but I just don't have any major problems with how bricktown is turning out...Still enjoy going there

Hard Rock & ESPN Zone > Sonic and whatever the flavor du jour is in the former Nothing But Noodles spot.

Tal was screwed. Hogan was friends with Humphreys, undue influence occured, Oklahoma City loses in the end.

Hard Rock & ESPN Zone > Sonic and whatever the flavor du jour is in the former Nothing But Noodles spot.

Tal was screwed. Hogan was friends with Humphreys, undue influence occured, Oklahoma City loses in the end.

Yes!

We can all badmouth how it's turned out, but as we know plans fall through so there is no way to know how Tal's original concept would have materialized

Couldn't be any worse...Absolutely it could

As for Sonic...Since we only have a handful of larger Oklahoma based companies left I say let them build their HQ wherever they please

We can all badmouth how it's turned out, but as we know plans fall through so there is no way to know how Tal's original concept would have materialized

Plans fall through? How can plans fall through when you have no deals to begin with? Randy Hogan was making a lot of promises he knew he couldn't keep. He said he had deals signed to bring Edwards Theatres to town. That wasn't true. Then he said he had a deal signed to bring Sega Gameworks to town. That wasn't true. How much more are you going to believe Randy Hogan's lies.

This isn't the only project he's lied on. He lied to the citizens of Oklahoma City when he won approval to develop Lake Hefner. He promised retail, a bike shop for bike and roller blade rentals, and a boardwalk. I see none of that. All I see is ritsy offices for his buddies.


Couldn't be any worse...Absolutely it could

No, it couldn't be worse. The mound of dirt was nicer than what's currently there. At least it would be easier to find a new developer who could put a nicer development plan together. Now the land is used, and we can't do that. The damage been done. The land has been turned into a collection of concrete pre-fab buildings, no different than a strip mall on Memorial Rd. Go out to PF Changs sometime on Memorial Rd. The center court there in the midst of the restaurants looks similar to a Randy Hogan development. And that is on Memorial Rd.


As for Sonic...Since we only have a handful of larger Oklahoma based companies left I say let them build their HQ wherever they please

How about a Sonic Tower in the CBD? If they're that important of a company to our city, than they should respect what we're trying to accomplish downtown.

Conservative -- I really like what you're preaching as far as your vision for this city. I understand you're reasonably well connected (you have to be to get on the state fair board). If you ever want to run for office, you'll have my support.

Conservative -- I really like what you're preaching as far as your vision for this city. I understand you're reasonably well connected (you have to be to get on the state fair board). If you ever want to run for office, you'll have my support.

I'm not sure I'd much of a chance of winning if I ran for city office. I'm not well liked by the city state government. They know how I feel about helping your friends vs. doing what's right.

I think definitely that companies look at beautification, the arts, the schools, the general atmosphere of a city when they consider moving to it. I do believe, though, that they may not be looking for the things we think they are. You'd be surprised how many want to get AWAY from the Left and East coast situations to more of a rock-solid environment in which to raise their kids and at the same time, enjoy a nice lifestyle. I know that wasn't the point made in the thread, just throwing it out there that we need not mimick "everything" about L.A., NYC, Baltimore, Philadelphia etc...

Another thing, does the job we did on GM (tax give then take away) still haunt us?

Another thing, does the job we did on GM (tax give then take away) still haunt us?

Yes, you shouldn't give tax incentives to a corporation, then take them back after the plant is built.

I think commuter rail should be a higher priority. Having rail from suburbs like Edmond, Moore, and Norman will give commuters from these areas another option instead of driving on I-35. Plus it could be the catalyst for more downtown development in the form of more offices and entertainment options as both rail line from the north and south would converge in downtown in between the CBD and Bricktown. Light rail could follow...

As for Bricktown, I was down there last night. I don't like the parking lots but within a few years I could see them redeveloped and a large, single parking garage built instead. There are about five lots around the theater, Sonic, and Bass Pro that could easily be redeveloped into residential with ground floor retail/restaurants. It will be interesting to see what kind of plans there will be for the new downtown blvd., it has real potential to be the main "drag" downtown with a wide mix of urban-scale retail along both sides.

Yes, you shouldn't give tax incentives to a corporation, then take them back after the plant is built.

The state shouldn't allow a group like OIA to exist and grant unconstitutional benefits to corporations.

It's a good thing Jan Eric Cartwright led the charge in the eventual dismantling of the OIA. I'm very proud of him for doing that. He was a great man, he would have had those OIA criminals in prison on various charges had Gaylord not convinced a rather stupid electorate that Mike Turpin (MIKE TURPIN!) was the better man for the job.

We need sidewalks and we need to bury power lines. Huge ugly power lines are every where, in nicer places throughout the country, power lines are buried.

Actually, Bricktown is struggling. The businesses down there have seen profts decline, and crowds flocking to Bricktown have decreased.

I personally think the whole reason of this is because of the increased police presence... Most people that go to bricktown, go there to drink and dance and be social.. If you drink a bit to much, then you have to worry about the sharks outside waiting.. Not to say that drinking and driving is right, but it happens and so people would just rather stay at home...

I did have a cop two weekends ago jump out of his car and told me to stick my hands up, he patted me down... I said what is this about... he said that he thought I put a beer can in my pocket, it was actually my cell phone. So what if I did have a beer??? If I were a tourist visiting and something like that happened, I would be spreading the word for a long time that OKC was not a cool place to visit. The cops need to get their priorities straight and they need to realize how citizen-friendly they need to be to ensure the success of tourism in OKC.

I did have a cop two weekends ago jump out of his car and told me to stick my hands up, he patted me down... I said what is this about... he said that he thought I put a beer can in my pocket, it was actually my cell phone. So what if I did have a beer??? If I were a tourist visiting and something like that happened, I would be spreading the word for a long time that OKC was not a cool place to visit. The cops need to get their priorities straight and they need to realize how citizen-friendly they need to be to ensure the success of tourism in OKC.

If a cop has probable cause to do a pat frisk, which is only for weapons, then he or she is only doing their job... No matter WHAT city you are in. They are not only protecting themselves, they are also protecting you.

I had an incident in Los Angeles (actually, Silmar) where I was assigned a room at a hotel where a man the Los Angeles Police had a warrant on had stayed the night before. They cuffed me, frisked me, and detained me until I proved I was not the guy. I said to the cop "you were doing your job, and I commend you for that." He appologized, shook my hand, and went on. I have no hard feelings, and will not speak ill of the city of Los Angeles, their suburbs or their police department.

It is unfortunate that happened (to you and me both)however, it could have been someone who WOULD cause harm they detained.

BEER, a beer can inside my coat pocket, no weapon - - he thought I was drinking a beer while walking back to my car parked near Harkins. I was chatting with a buddy of mine while we were walking, early in the evening completely sober. Very strange and completely uncalled for by the cop. I get your point. I mentioned this story because it was worth mentioning.

A couple of things come to mind right off the bat. First, the city needs to develop an internal office of economic development. From all I've been able to determine, the city itself has no such department and the Chamber of Commerce represents the closest such entity. That has to be changed. There is no reason why the city shouldn't have the funds to staff an office with a director whose full time job is to do nothing but find ways to promote OKC as a prime location for businesses, through the recruitment of outside businesses/industries and through the development, support, enhancement of existing and/or emerging local operations. The mayor as a figurehead can only do so much to be an ambassador for the city when it comes to recruiting outside businesses - he needs a full-time emissary. The director of economic development should be out networking, looking for opportunities to lure new businesses and industries to the area, reaching out to present specially-designed marketing materials to these companies and bringing the decisionmakers into the area to see for themselves what OKC has to offer. Furthermore, the director should be working with local banks and venture capitalists to find private money and creative financing vehicles to help bolster internal growth - the development of new businesses and industries from within the existing OKC population and possibly even the infusion of capital and/or management advice for emerging or struggling businesses who notwithstanding their present financial distress could be potential successes. Grassroots organizations/campaigns will only go so far toward the recruitment of new businesses and industries to the area. Places like Costco, Whole Foods, Nordstrom (to name three of the most popularly bandied-about names on this site) aren't going to be swayed by an influx of email from prospective shoppers. Someone with clout, hard figures and political moxie needs to be on the job to work these businesses aggressively and really sell the market. A chamber of commerce isn't an effective tool because the CoC is comprised of leaders of existing businesses which might be averse to some of the potential target businesses and industries.

Another change which I think would be beneficial is to move the Convention and Visitors Bureau away from the "annual contract" model and bring it permanently in-house within the structure of city government. Right now the CVB operates as a stand-alone agency which operates on an outsourced basis with the city. I think that degrades the necessary level of quality control. I see no reason why the mayor's office shouldn't have an official hand in overseeing the operations of this vital facet of the city's existence. There should be political accountability for the degree to which OKC is a convention and tourist destination.

These are just two major thoughts that I have on the subject. I'm going to be visiting town in a little over two weeks (can't wait - it's been 12 years!) and I'll certainly be glad to share more impressions upon my return.

BEER, a beer can inside my coat pocket, no weapon - - he thought I was drinking a beer while walking back to my car parked near Harkins. I was chatting with a buddy of mine while we were walking, early in the evening completely sober. Very strange and completely uncalled for by the cop. I get your point. I mentioned this story because it was worth mentioning.

BY FEDERAL LAW a cop can only pat frisk you for weapons. There must be more to this story.

BY FEDERAL LAW a cop can only pat frisk you for weapons. There must be more to this story.

Wow.. you're a 4th amendment expert as well?

A true renaissance man!

I just got off of the phone with Justice Scalia, concurring in result, but dissenting in part.

Scalia, J. says he doesn't see anything in the Constitution which limits the officer to doing a 'frisk search' for weapons. He referred to Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, in which Chief Justice Warren (who was a good friend) held that an officer could perform a pat frisk for weapons under a broad range of circumstances. Scalia says he would expand the current understanding of the law to include suspicion of anything (which Chief Justice Warren for some reason placed the restriction you refer to). Scalia doesn't understand why men like Chief Justice Warren would build these strange exceptions into the corpus of the law.

I just got another instant message from Justice Ginsberg.

Ginsberg, J. IM'd me dissenting.

She says "I would hold that unless the officer actually saw what was supposedly being hidden, I would not entertain the thought of there being "reasonable suspicion." She further IM'd me that she didn't think police officers should ever be reasonable, therefore, she wanted them to take pictures of the guns to give evidence of the reasonable suspicion before the search was performed. She says that she would hold that the holding in Terry v. Ohio would open the floodgates on impermissible and intrusive searches by law enforcement officers who want to discriminate against women and minorities.

You for one, Midtowner, if you REALLY are a law student should know search and seizure.

I didn't say you were wrong :)

I just said my buddy Scalia tells me he would broaden Terry while my other buddy Ginsberg would narrow it.

I can't offer legal advice to your buddy there, and the Justices have informed me than neither can they :(