View Full Version : Reduce city sales tax



ChristianConservative
10-03-2006, 03:14 PM
I think it's time that we consider reducing our city sales tax. Compare to many other cities our size, we have a much higher sales tax. National average trends around 6%. We're at 8.375%. This is a huge turn off to businesses. It's time that we allow people to have more money in their pockets by dropping city sales tax. One place to start is by stopping corporate welfare projects like bailing our school system out, giving money away to hotel chains like Marcus Hotels and Resorts, giving TIF money away to developers that should have to raise money the same way other developers do, etc.

It isn't the city's reponsibiltity to finance every private venture. In fact, I think financing private ventures is stepping over the line for our city. Bass Pro Shops was a huge mistake, as was the city forking over money to give to the Hornets, etc. If private companies like the Hornets, Bass Pro Shops, etc. want to do business here, they should be under the same restrictions as everyone else. When I decided to start an oil company here, the city didn't come running to me with incentives.

Easy180
10-03-2006, 03:25 PM
I think differently on Bass Pro and the Hornets...Oklahoma is so far down on many corporation's expansion lists that it may take throwing money their way to get some attention for our fine state

I compare it to teams like the Pirates and Royals who have to overpay for free agents just to get consideration

Midtowner
10-03-2006, 03:59 PM
CC: There is a reason it's said that the best investment in this state is in a winning political campaign.

mranderson
10-03-2006, 04:12 PM
I think it's time that we consider reducing our city sales tax. Compare to many other cities our size, we have a much higher sales tax. National average trends around 6%. We're at 8.375%. This is a huge turn off to businesses. It's time that we allow people to have more money in their pockets by dropping city sales tax. One place to start is by stopping corporate welfare projects like bailing our school system out, giving money away to hotel chains like Marcus Hotels and Resorts, giving TIF money away to developers that should have to raise money the same way other developers do, etc.

It isn't the city's reponsibiltity to finance every private venture. In fact, I think financing private ventures is stepping over the line for our city. Bass Pro Shops was a huge mistake, as was the city forking over money to give to the Hornets, etc. If private companies like the Hornets, Bass Pro Shops, etc. want to do business here, they should be under the same restrictions as everyone else. When I decided to start an oil company here, the city didn't come running to me with incentives.

First. The city did not "fork over" money to give the Hornets. If anything, the city invested in the team... And won. Had the city not invested in them, Kansas City would have gotten the team, and we would still be that untapped fortune. In fact, the city earned a 1.2 million dollar profit off the deal which will go into the general fund. Plus the six or so million dollar windfall (excess above budget) will be used for road and signal improvements.

The city also is winning with Bass Pro. They are making a profit. I admit, I would rather have seen the city bid for Cabela's by saying "you pay, not us," however, the Bass Pro venture was profitable.

If we did not have the sales tax we have, we would not have a nice arena, therefore, once again, no major league team. Now, before you say you do not care, ask those 20,000 people that pack the Ford Center every game night what THEY think. Ask the business owners that have more business as a result of the Hornets relocation here. All will tell you they are thankful for an occasional increase in taxes.

If we did not have the tax rate we do, we would not have the quailty Police and Fire departments we have. We have some of the best in the nation with both being nationally recognized for their technology and service. Because of those taxes you do not want to pay, Oklahoma City has not had a single firefighter die in the line of duty since 1989, and only three in my lifetime. Because of those taxes you do not want to pay, Oklahoma City has only had two police officers die in the line of duty since 1990 (or 91). NOT ONE since that day has been shot to death.

If we did not have the taxes you do not want to pay, we would not have improvements in our roads and bridges. Granted, they need a lot more work, however, they would be a lot worse if it was not for those taxes.

If we did not have those taxes you do not want to pay, we would not be in the process of upgrading our public schools. Most were in so bad of shape, they should have been condemed.

I can go on and on. Taxes are a must. You use it, you pay for it. Governments are businesses. Non profit business yes. Not in the charitable sense, mind you. Governments invest their money just like you and I do, and use the profits from those investments to invest back into their body. Such as the city of Oklahoma City.

All I can say, is I will gladly vote in favor of new sales tax because I know it is being invested and spent wisley.

One more thing... If you do not like the tax rate, then move elsewhere.

The Old Downtown Guy
10-03-2006, 04:32 PM
. . . . When I decided to start an oil company here, the city didn't come running to me with incentives.

Googling "Oil Industry Subsidies" returns 2450 hits. You might want to check out a few, you may be missing out on some goodies.


. . . . I think it's time that we consider reducing our city sales tax. Compare to many other cities our size, we have a much higher sales tax. National average trends around 6%. We're at 8.375%. This is a huge turn off to businesses.

Here is a link to all state sales taxes and Oklahoma at 4.5% is in the middle of the pack.

State Sales Tax Rates (http://www.taxadmin.org/FTA/rate/sales.html)

At 3.875% Local Tax Rate, 8.375% Total, OKC is in the upper range of the cities I checked out. Here is how it breaks down as exerpted from dustbury.com

"(For comparison, the Oklahoma City sales tax is apportioned as follows: two cents, general expenditures; one cent, MAPS for Kids [expires 1/2009]; 0.75 cent, earmarked for public safety; 0.125 cent, Oklahoma City Zoo. Including the 4.5-cent state sales tax, this comes to 8.375 cents, unless you're in the part of the city that extends into Canadian County, which levies a 0.35-cent sales tax of its own. Tulsa County has a 1.017-cent sales tax; Oklahoma County has no sales tax.)"

I personally think your argument is lame CC. But that's just my opinion.

John
10-03-2006, 04:47 PM
I'd rather a national sales tax replacing the federal income tax.

mranderson
10-03-2006, 04:49 PM
I'd rather a national sales tax replacing the federal income tax.

I totally agree. It should be ten percent.

Spartan
10-03-2006, 05:21 PM
Just so you all people know, a national sales tax would not have made Bricktown or the Ford Center.

mranderson
10-03-2006, 05:44 PM
Just so you all people know, a national sales tax would not have made Bricktown or the Ford Center.

Granted. It was just a comment and an agreement.

okcpulse
10-03-2006, 08:21 PM
I think it's time that we consider reducing our city sales tax. Compare to many other cities our size, we have a much higher sales tax. National average trends around 6%. We're at 8.375%. This is a huge turn off to businesses. It's time that we allow people to have more money in their pockets by dropping city sales tax. One place to start is by stopping corporate welfare projects like bailing our school system out, giving money away to hotel chains like Marcus Hotels and Resorts, giving TIF money away to developers that should have to raise money the same way other developers do, etc.

It isn't the city's reponsibiltity to finance every private venture. In fact, I think financing private ventures is stepping over the line for our city. Bass Pro Shops was a huge mistake, as was the city forking over money to give to the Hornets, etc. If private companies like the Hornets, Bass Pro Shops, etc. want to do business here, they should be under the same restrictions as everyone else. When I decided to start an oil company here, the city didn't come running to me with incentives.

For starters, ChristianConservative, your argument has a very poor foundation based on assumption, not facts. I do understand your feelings, but in turn you must understand the purpose sales taxes serve for Oklahoma, and where we should really cut.

As mranderson pointed out, we have a lot of top quality services in Oklahoma City because of the taxes we pay.

Please understand that the city didn't use sales tax money to lure Bass Pro. It used use tax money paid by construction companies at a rate EQUIVALENT to the sales tax rate. We are not bailing out our public school system. We are overhauling our public school system. Should have taken a tour of Douglass before demolition. It was worse than a vacated building. And that is no joke.

You shouldn't throw TIF money into your argument. We don't pay a dime on those taxes. Downtown property owners do. Every city has helped finance downtown private projects in some form or another.

Also take into account taxes Oklahoma City doesn't pay that cities like here in Houston pay. Property taxes three times higher than Oklahoma (and no it's not because homes here have higher value- in actuality, their value is slightly higher). Stealth taxes. New resident taxes. Inspection fees that are $41.50 per year per vehicle. And Houston sales taxes are 8.25% on the dollar. 6.25 percent goes to Texas, two percent goes to Houston's general fund. And let's not forget higher gas taxes.

It's easier on you because when you visit another city, sales tax is all you pay. Live in another city, and receive your slap-in-the-face welcome to our town letter.

BDP
10-04-2006, 09:48 AM
place to start is by stopping corporate welfare projects


When I decided to start an oil company here...

:LolLolLol :LolLolLol :LolLolLol

Your irony is classic.

Am I the only one that is beginning to think that CC is a parody? If so, good show!

soonerguru
10-05-2006, 01:28 PM
Unfortunately, I'm thinking CC is saying these things without a hint of irony. Therefore, no show.:(

I've been extremely impressed with the way our city has been run for at least a decade -- and I'm a bit of a cynic by nature. Though I didn't vote for Mickster, I think he too has done a good job.

Let's put it this way, our city gov. has done a far superior job running our city than the "Christian" Consservatives are doing in DC.

Citizens here can see real progress for the investment they have made in the Maps I and II sales tax increases. We live in a far better city today as a result of those taxes.

Ideological "purity" is a non-starter for governing. Imagine where our country would be if Grover Norquist called all the shots in Washington. Oh wait......

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 01:31 PM
CC: There is a reason it's said that the best investment in this state is in a winning political campaign.

So true.

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 01:35 PM
As mranderson pointed out, we have a lot of top quality services in Oklahoma City because of the taxes we pay.

Our services are no better than in the states where sales taxes are much less.


Please understand that the city didn't use sales tax money to lure Bass Pro. It used use tax money paid by construction companies at a rate EQUIVALENT to the sales tax rate.

It's money that should've gone into a fund to maintain the MAPS Projects. Now what happens when the canal springs a leak? Or the Ford Center needs renovation?


We are not bailing out our public school system. We are overhauling our public school system. Should have taken a tour of Douglass before demolition. It was worse than a vacated building. And that is no joke.

That is the fault of the Oklahoma City School System and their failures on previous bond issues. The 1993 bond issue was completely mishandled.


You shouldn't throw TIF money into your argument. We don't pay a dime on those taxes. Downtown property owners do. Every city has helped finance downtown private projects in some form or another.

Read Midtowner's comments regarding TIF.


Also take into account taxes Oklahoma City doesn't pay that cities like here in Houston pay. Property taxes three times higher than Oklahoma (and no it's not because homes here have higher value- in actuality, their value is slightly higher). Stealth taxes. New resident taxes. Inspection fees that are $41.50 per year per vehicle. And Houston sales taxes are 8.25% on the dollar. 6.25 percent goes to Texas, two percent goes to Houston's general fund. And let's not forget higher gas taxes.

Houston also doesn't have an income tax.


It's easier on you because when you visit another city, sales tax is all you pay. Live in another city, and receive your slap-in-the-face welcome to our town letter. Right, we should be giving a warmer welcome to our tourists by lowering sales taxes. Make up the difference with other forms of taxes. Or better yet, handle money appropriately, and quit wasting it.

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 01:40 PM
Unfortunately, I'm thinking CC is saying these things without a hint of irony. Therefore, no show.:(

Oh, there is no irony in anything I've said. I'm dead serious in my statements here.


I've been extremely impressed with the way our city has been run for at least a decade -- and I'm a bit of a cynic by nature. Though I didn't vote for Mickster, I think he too has done a good job.

This is for another topic, but honestly, I feel Mick has done nothing. Had Katrina not happened, can you name anything else he's done? And the only reason he got the Hornets here is thanks to Ron Norick.


Let's put it this way, our city gov. has done a far superior job running our city than the "Christian" Consservatives are doing in DC.

I see no problem in the way the Christian Conservatives are running our government. Tax cuts are finally taking effect through trickle down economics, and that's why you see the economy finally beginning to boom, as it's leaving a recession in the dust. All we need now is a Democrat to take office in DC, raise taxes, and kill the economie's momentum.


Citizens here can see real progress for the investment they have made in the Maps I and II sales tax increases. We live in a far better city today as a result of those taxes.

I don't disagree, and I'm not opposed to MAPS. MAPS is only a part of the 8.375% we pay.

floater
10-05-2006, 02:18 PM
I believe in "corporate welfare" as you call it -- because economic development is an arms race, and unless all cities stop offering them, OKC will lose out.

I second the praise for OKC's governance. Moody's actually raised our bond rating because of all the investments we have been making. If anyone commands the standard of municipal finance and governance, its Moody's and Standard and Poor's. OKC is a model.

okieopus
10-05-2006, 02:21 PM
There are no "Christian Conservatives"
in power. They may be Christian, but they are far from conservative. Have you seen the national debt lately? $28,539.22. is currently your share.

By the way, Sales Taxes have little to do with tourism. Have you ever seen "Low Sales Tax" in a travel magazine.

BDP
10-05-2006, 03:36 PM
Oh, there is no irony in anything I've said. I'm dead serious in my statements here.

Well, there certainly is a lot of irony in your statements, no matter how serious you are.


Tax cuts are finally taking effect through trickle down economics, and that's why you see the economy finally beginning to boom, as it's leaving a recession in the dust. All we need now is a Democrat to take office in DC, raise taxes, and kill the economie's momentum.

Sorry, but, see that’s ironic and funny.

You obviously get a lot of this from campaigns and stump speeches, but it really doesn't work that way. I'm not even against your basic cause here. Sales tax is a regressive tax that affects those with the least amount of income the hardest. I think we should at least remove sales tax from perishables. That's almost cruel to tax someone for their basic foods.

However, this tax cuts = trickle down bolley-hoo and the blind partisan rhetoric you use doesn't really make a good case. I'm sorry I questioned your sincerity, I just didn't think people really bought in to that stuff.

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 04:58 PM
Sales tax is a regressive tax that affects those with the least amount of income the hardest.

That's not true at all. Rich people tend to buy more merchandise. Look at how much they spend on clothing alone. And then there's the large screen televisions. The home theater systems. The expensive furniture. Then they spend even more on furniture for their offices, office supplies, etc.


I'm sorry I questioned your sincerity, I just didn't think people really bought in to that stuff.

There's no buying into it. It's the truth. Tax cuts in all areas spur the economy. Regardless of who tax cuts help, they put money in people's pockets that would have otherwise been in the pockets of the government.

mranderson
10-05-2006, 05:54 PM
Our services are no better than in the states where sales taxes are much less.



It's money that should've gone into a fund to maintain the MAPS Projects. Now what happens when the canal springs a leak? Or the Ford Center needs renovation?



That is the fault of the Oklahoma City School System and their failures on previous bond issues. The 1993 bond issue was completely mishandled.



Read Midtowner's comments regarding TIF.



Houston also doesn't have an income tax.

Right, we should be giving a warmer welcome to our tourists by lowering sales taxes. Make up the difference with other forms of taxes. Or better yet, handle money appropriately, and quit wasting it.

1. I suggest you go through the citizen academys and you will learn first hand how much better out departments are than most in the United States. Even cities much larger than Oklahoma City.

2. There is money for upkeep of the projects. No need to worry.

3. Oklahoma has one of the worst bond issue laws in the nation. Bond issues and taxes are much different. I would be willing to bet you did not attend Oklahoma City schools, so, I doubt you know the condition they were in. If you want to place blame, then try Sandy Garrett. She has done nothing for the schools in Oklahoma worth while.

4. (skipping your comment about midtowner) I suggest you move to Houston if you think it is the haven you seem to think.

Until then, just accept the fact most people have gottten over their unwilling ness to pay for what they use and now vote in favor of taxes.

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 06:14 PM
2. There is money for upkeep of the projects. No need to worry.

Yeah? Where? Much of the MAPS repair fund was spent on Bass Pro Shops. If anything major happened to one of the MAPS projects, we'd be up a creek without a paddle.


3. Oklahoma has one of the worst bond issue laws in the nation. Bond issues and taxes are much different. I would be willing to bet you did not attend Oklahoma City schools, so, I doubt you know the condition they were in. If you want to place blame, then try Sandy Garrett. She has done nothing for the schools in Oklahoma worth while.

I graduated from Northwest Classen High School. Yes, I completely blame Sandy Garrett.


4. (skipping your comment about midtowner) I suggest you move to Houston if you think it is the haven you seem to think.

I'll pass.


Until then, just accept the fact most people have gottten over their unwilling ness to pay for what they use and now vote in favor of taxes.

I never said the people shouldn't pay for it. I think the city shouldn't be helping out organizations that are completely separate from the operations of the city, e.g., the surrounding school districts. If the school districts need raise money for repairs, then they need to learn to handle money responsibly, and ask the people within their districts to pay for repairs via bond issues, millage increases, etc.

It isn't the city of Oklahoma City's responsibility to help everyone out. I think the city is crossing dangerous terrority helping corporations like Bass Pro Shops, the Oklahoma City Public Schools, Marcus Hotels and Resorts, etc.

Please note, I voted in favor of the Oklahoma City Public Schools Bond Issue, but against MAPS for Kids. There were two parts to the package, if you remember right.

mranderson
10-05-2006, 06:25 PM
Our services are no better than in the states where sales taxes are much less.



It's money that should've gone into a fund to maintain the MAPS Projects. Now what happens when the canal springs a leak? Or the Ford Center needs renovation?



That is the fault of the Oklahoma City School System and their failures on previous bond issues. The 1993 bond issue was completely mishandled.



Read Midtowner's comments regarding TIF.



Houston also doesn't have an income tax.

Right, we should be giving a warmer welcome to our tourists by lowering sales taxes. Make up the difference with other forms of taxes. Or better yet, handle money appropriately, and quit wasting it.


Yeah? Where? Much of the MAPS repair fund was spent on Bass Pro Shops. If anything major happened to one of the MAPS projects, we'd be up a creek without a paddle.



I graduated from Northwest Classen High School. Yes, I completely blame Sandy Garrett.



I'll pass.



I never said the people shouldn't pay for it. I think the city shouldn't be helping out organizations that are completely separate from the operations of the city, e.g., the surrounding school districts. If the school districts need raise money for repairs, then they need to learn to handle money responsibly, and ask the people within their districts to pay for repairs via bond issues, millage increases, etc.

It isn't the city of Oklahoma City's responsibility to help everyone out. I think the city is crossing dangerous terrority helping corporations like Bass Pro Shops, the Oklahoma City Public Schools, Marcus Hotels and Resorts, etc.

Please note, I voted in favor of the Oklahoma City Public Schools Bond Issue, but against MAPS for Kids. There were two parts to the package, if you remember right.

The funds are in a contengancy fund created from larger than expected tax revenues. No MAPS money was spent on Bass Pro. In addition. Although I am not always in favor of government bodies kissing the tuchas of the large business, it happens. How much to you think the city of Oklahoma City paid Dell to locate here? BTW. Not one penny was MAPS money.

I took a chance. Funny. If you really DID graduate from an Oklahoma City high school, then you should know what shape they were in.

If you did not want the people to pay for better schools, then how do you expect to get the money?

If you do not like the taxes, then move. Pass or no pass. You live here, you use the facilities and the roads, then you pay for that privlidge. Along with everyone else, including visitors.

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 06:32 PM
The funds are in a contengancy fund created from larger than expected tax revenues.

I ask you to show me the evidence, because the statement you've made is completely false.



No MAPS money was spent on Bass Pro.
Money from a MAPS use tax fund (money obtained from taxing goods and services of the developers involved in the MAPS projects) was supposed to be set aside in an account to be used to maintain the MAPS projects. Instead, the money was raided to pay for Bass Pro, among other projects.



How much to you think the city of Oklahoma City paid Dell to locate here?

Whatever it was, it was a complete waste of tax payer money. I think it's ludicrous to spend tax payer money for jobs that pay a starting salary of $12 an hour.


I took a chance. Funny. If you really DID graduate from an Oklahoma City high school, then you should know what shape they were in.

I graduated from Northwest Classen. My children graduated from Heritage Hall.


If you did not want the people to pay for better schools, then how do you expect to get the money?

I don't mind the people paying for better schools. It just isn't the city's responsibility to foot the bill or manage the money. It's the responsibility of the school board.


If you do not like the taxes, then move. Pass or no pass. You live here, you use the facilities and the roads, then you pay for that privlidge. Along with everyone else, including visitors.

I express my disapproval by my vote. Moving is a loser's answer to the problems we face.

I have no problem with paying for the facilities. The mismanagement of money is what I disaprove of. And, the city spending money in inappropriate ways, is what I disapprove. City government shouldn't be in the business of helping fund private investment.

Easy180
10-05-2006, 07:31 PM
cc...Ludicrous to use taxpayer money to lure businesses with starting pay jobs of $12 an hour

Are there many businesses with starting pay of $20 or $30 an hour beating down the door to expand to Oklahoma?

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 07:59 PM
cc...Ludicrous to use taxpayer money to lure businesses with starting pay jobs of $12 an hour

Are there many businesses with starting pay of $20 or $30 an hour beating down the door to expand to Oklahoma?

We can get call centers, $12 an hour jobs, without having to subsidize. Just look at Sprint, AOL, etc.

The Old Downtown Guy
10-05-2006, 08:18 PM
. . . It's the truth. Tax cuts in all areas spur the economy. Regardless of who tax cuts help, they put money in people's pockets that would have otherwise been in the pockets of the government.

And does government put the tax money it collects in a savings account? No, it spends it as well. Not always, but part of the time, it spends it on things that are more worthwhile that another plasma TV on some guy's yacht.

Your being in agreement with the fiscal policies that have created the largest public debt per-capita in the history of human kind (and rising daily) doesn't make it a good idea. It is a generally accepted fact that stable economic growth is achieved by policies that result in an expansion of the middle class. Just Google "Shrinking Middle Class" and start reading the nearly 50,000 hits you get back.

Dude, you obviously drank the Kool-Aid.

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 08:22 PM
Your being in agreement with the fiscal policies that have created the largest public debt per-capita in the history of human kind (and rising daily) doesn't make it a good idea.

Tax cuts have not led to the debt, per say. Increased spending has led to the debt. With decreased taxation needs to come decreased spending. We need to cut out the current welfare system that rewards women for not seeking work. We need to reduce military spending, by further streamlining our military. We need to cut the national park system, which is only serving to drain American dollars, and isn't absolutely necessary to the functioning of this nation. The system can be privatized. We need to eliminate Social Security, which is a disaster waiting to happen. We need to eliminate the EPA, which only serves to thwart the American economy, and costs taxpayers millions every year. We need to cut government waste in all areas.

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 08:27 PM
Actually economic growth is linked to money consumers have to spend. Tax cuts put more money into the hands of American workers.

ChristianConservative
10-05-2006, 08:29 PM
another plasma TV on some guy's yacht.

Purchases on merchandise and services fuel the economy and create jobs.

okieopus
10-05-2006, 08:49 PM
Tax cuts have not led to the debt, per say. Increased spending has led to the debt. With decreased taxation needs to come decreased spending. We need to cut out the current welfare system that rewards women for not seeking work. We need to reduce military spending, by further streamlining our military. We need to cut the national park system, which is only serving to drain American dollars, and isn't absolutely necessary to the functioning of this nation. The system can be privatized. We need to eliminate Social Security, which is a disaster waiting to happen. We need to eliminate the EPA, which only serves to thwart the American economy, and costs taxpayers millions every year. We need to cut government waste in all areas.

Are you serious? are you sure you are not a Libertarian?

Enjoy your clean water and clean air tonight.

soonerguru
10-05-2006, 09:05 PM
Wow!

CC may be part of that 36% who will support this corrupt, incompetent regime no matter what happens.

ChristianConservative
10-06-2006, 07:06 AM
Are you serious? are you sure you are not a Libertarian?

Probably more Libertarian than Republican actually. But, I don't think the current president is really acting in a manner characteristic of the Newt Gingrich Republicans, which balanced the budget. The key is to reduce spending in many areas.

ChristianConservative
10-06-2006, 07:06 AM
Wow!

CC may be part of that 36% who will support this corrupt, incompetent regime no matter what happens.

The only corrupt incompetent regimes are those that promote terrorism.

The Old Downtown Guy
10-06-2006, 11:02 AM
This thread has apparently been invaded by agents of some over the top right wing boys club. Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to the rest of this forum, they will tire of posting their misguided pontifications and then this too shall pass. It is possible however that this is part of a greater strategy to inflict their rhetoric on bloggs around the country as a means of influencing opinion. But there will be no further comments from me on this asinine thread that has nothing to do with life in OKC. Though some may applaud and say good riddance, who cares what you have to say, IMO, and it has been my experience that when politics and religion enter the room holding hands, intelligent conversation and thoughtful discussion leaves by the back door.

Patrick
10-06-2006, 01:19 PM
This thread has apparently been invaded by agents of some over the top right wing boys club. Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to the rest of this forum, they will tire of posting their misguided pontifications and then this too shall pass.

Personally, I welcome the new discussion. In recent months, the reverse trend has actually occurred on this forum, with conservative Republicans leaving the forum, and liberals like myself taking over. I welcome the diversity of opinion that is occurring here. After all, isn't that what we're striving to promote here at OKCTalk? This place would sure be dull if it were predominated by only one side of the political spectrum.

BDP
10-06-2006, 01:41 PM
That's not true at all. Rich people tend to buy more merchandise. Look at how much they spend on clothing alone. And then there's the large screen televisions. The home theater systems. The expensive furniture. Then they spend even more on furniture for their offices, office supplies, etc.

Ok, you're clearly out of touch, because you made my point and you didn't even realize it. Sales tax may affect how many plasma TVs or how nice a plasma TV a rich person buys, but for a poor person it affects how much food and what kind of food they can buy. In my mind I would say having to buy less food affects a person greater than only being able to buy the 42" screen instead of the 46" screen.

However, I'm guessing that makes no sense to you as people who make your arguments are generally very disconnected from reality to begin with and they really think the government is being unfair if they can’t buy a new plasma TV. But, maybe if we just stick to facts and math, you'll understand:

A regressive tax is one that takes a larger percentage of income the lower that income is. A sales tax is effectively regressive because everyone, no matter their income, pays the same rate (even more so in Oklahoma where there is no exception for essential items like perishable foods).

So if X (tax rate) is constant, it becomes a greater percentage of Y (income) as Y approaches 0.

So, the fact is that it IS a regressive tax. If a poor person bought a plasma TV, the sales tax on that purchase would still be a greater percentage of their income than when a rich person buys that same plasma TV. The fact a poor person can't afford that plasma TV is really irrelevant when classifying it as regressive tax. Rich people pay more sales tax because they buy more things, but that does not mean that it is a greater percentage of their income for a given item. In fact, it is the opposite, which means it is regressive.

In so much as your agenda with this thread, just thank me for giving you an objective tool you can use along with your visceral arguments.

As far as Tax cuts = more money to workers, well, there really is no long term macro support for this so called trickle down theory. (It certainly can work on a micro short term basis, but it doesn’t seem to work in the federal arena.) The main problem with trickle down's credence in the first place is that it is a controlled theory, meaning it controls many variables to support it's thesis that true living breathing Americans do not have the luxury of doing. The most glaring one of which is living expenses. Others include inflation, savings rate, and debt. (But this controlled nature makes it perfect for political campaigns and “meet the press” interviews, even if it’s tossed aside for more complete economic theories after about week 2 in any undergrad macroeconomic course.)

This is how, despite years of tax cuts sold under the trickle down brand, you have less savings and less wealth in the middle class. Housing, health care, and transportation costs have gone up at a disproportionate amount to wages and tax benefits. Whatever trickle they are getting, it is not off setting the increase in expenses.

Now if you look at some history, you will basically find that since the 50s income tax rates have basically been on a constant decline, especially in the "source of trickle" top tax brackets (in 1950 there was a 91% tax bracket, that's right, 91! Today, the highest is 35%). Also, more people today pay NO taxes than ever before, by using deductions and "loop holes". However, the middle class has been steadily shrinking ever since.

Now, I am not saying that tax cuts are universally bad. But we have had top tier tax cuts for half a century and there is no macro evidence that it directly leads to increased wealth in the middle class. In fact, the association of the two actually suggests the opposite. You now actually have more wealth concentrated to fewer people after years of tax cuts, while living expenses have risen. There are always more variable at play and we can always use the “imagine theory” that is popular among conservatives right now to create fantasy models, but as of now, “trickle down” has never delivered as the theory proposes on a macro scale.

Anyway, I'm sure that falls on deaf ears, but maybe it will cause some others, who may falling prey to the "it must be true if we keep saying it" strategy, to not get their math, science, economic, or philosphy lessons from politicians. Question what they're telling you. Always question it, especially if they keep repeating it.

Patrick
10-06-2006, 01:54 PM
Thought I'd throw this out there......what is wrong with a regressive tax? Personally, if it was up to me, everyone would be paying a flat percentage, we'd eliminate income tax, and everything would come from sales tax.

ChristianConservative
10-06-2006, 01:58 PM
I am actually in favor of regressive tax cuts. People among my tax bracket have been paying too much in taxes for years now. Why should we be punished for our successes, while the money is given to the middle class and poor, who are in the condition they're in because of poor choices they've made somewhere along the line? I think it's about time the poor and middle class pay their fair share of taxes in this country. Give more money to the rich, and maybe we'll pay our employees a little better.

Easy180
10-06-2006, 02:09 PM
Just look at it like forced charity...Maybe have the poor people send the guys who made the right choices in life a Thank You card along with their forms at tax time

BDP
10-06-2006, 02:10 PM
what is wrong with a regressive tax?

Well, that's debatable and probably a much more interesting discussion. I don't think it's evil or anything, but I just think that it shouldn't apply to basic essentials. I do think there is something inhumane about asking a person to pay more of their income towards food than someone else, just because they make less money.

In theory, I like flat income taxes with no deductions, because then the opportunity cost of making another dollar is the same for everyone all the time. It eliminates taxes as an economic manipulator and ties the government's income in direct line with community productivity. Sales tax ties it to consumption, effectively making government revenues inversely tied to community savings.

But that’s all kind of limited and would tie the hands of government to goose the economy if needed. Then the question becomes, is that even supposed to be the role of government?

ChristianConservative
10-06-2006, 02:13 PM
Just look at it like forced charity...Maybe have the poor people send the guys who made the right choices in life a Thank You card along with their forms at tax time

Sounds more to me like government punishing those who choose to be successful in life, and rewarding those who make poor choices. I've worked hard putting my corporation together. I've worked hard all of my life, and I don't think it's fair that I'm having to pay a higher percentage of taxes than those who weren't smart enough to invest wisely, build a corporation, etc. I'm being punished for my success.

BDP
10-06-2006, 02:21 PM
Why should we be punished for our successes, while the money is given to the middle class and poor, who are in the condition they're in because of poor choices they've made somewhere along the line? I think it's about time the poor and middle class pay their fair share of taxes in this country. Give more money to the rich, and maybe we'll pay our employees a little better.

I christen thee: Bubble Boy.

How's the view from in there?

I’m starting to think that it was a wise move to drop the Christian part of your handle, considering Jesus’s thing about charity and neighbors and “render unto Caesar” and all that other hippy crap.

Oh, and on another thread, didn’t you condemn the lottery as “regressive”? Maybe you were praising it. I guess the principles depend on your current agenda.

Anyway, I pay taxes so I don’t have to pay my employees more. Those taxes go to many services that if I had to provide or they had to pay for on a private scale, we’d all be out of business.

But ideology does often get in the way pragmatism in this world. People don't seem to want progress, they just want to right.

"We only receive what we demand. And if we want hell then hells what well have".

Easy180
10-06-2006, 02:25 PM
You have worked hard all your life and as a result I'm sure you aren't currently residing in a mobile home and from a previous post your kids went to Heritage Hills...Not really seeing where the punishment is coming into play yet

Maybe if you list some things you go without because of the higher taxes I can understand better

BDP
10-06-2006, 02:25 PM
Just look at it like forced charity

Sort of. But do you count corporate hand outs and subsidies as charity? Seriously, if our federal expenditures were only the ones of charitable nature, we would have no deficit to speak of.

BDP
10-06-2006, 02:30 PM
Why should we be punished for our successes, while the money is given to the middle class and poor, who are in the condition they're in because of poor choices they've made somewhere along the line?

Why should someone be punished because their chosen field doesn't pay as much as yours? Isn't that punishment enough? Your model doesn't eliminate punishment by taxation, it just shifts it conveniently away from you.

ChristianConservative
10-06-2006, 02:34 PM
Oh, and on another thread, didn’t you condemn the lottery as “regressive”? Maybe you were praising it. I guess the principles depend on your current agenda.


I condemn the lottery more because it leads to a gambling addiction, which could be reduced by not having a lottery, tribal games, etc.

ChristianConservative
10-06-2006, 02:35 PM
Your model doesn't eliminate punishment by taxation, it just shifts it conveniently away from you.

No, my model makes it more even across the board. A straight 9% tax across the board would be fair to all parties involved.

ChristianConservative
10-06-2006, 02:37 PM
You have worked hard all your life and as a result I'm sure you aren't currently residing in a mobile home and from a previous post your kids went to Heritage Hills...Not really seeing where the punishment is coming into play yet

Maybe if you list some things you go without because of the higher taxes I can understand better

That's beside the point. I've earned my money, and the government shouldn't be "stealing" it from me, just because I fit into a certain fiscal class.

okcpulse
10-06-2006, 06:41 PM
I condemn the lottery more because it leads to a gambling addiction, which could be reduced by not having a lottery, tribal games, etc.

I play the lottery but I am not addicted. Amount I've spent on tickets since January... $4. Yeah, I'm addicted alright. Guess I should call the 1-800 number to get help.