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Pete
09-14-2006, 07:55 AM
Canal side renovation plan includes parking, restaurant, office

By Steve Lackmeyer
The Oklahoman

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Two Oklahoma City oilmen are proposing a multimillion-dollar renovation of properties along the Bricktown Canal that would include construction of a two-story parking garage, fountains and addition of offices and housing.

John Shelton and Charles Harding’s project, at 2 E California and 12 E California, was applauded Wednesday by the Bricktown Urban Design Committee. But the committee withheld approval, saying it will need more information and detailed drawings.

“Our development will depend on the approval of the design committee and the city,” Harding said. “We don’t want to go to the expense of doing all this and then finding out it won’t work.”

Harding’s proposal calls for renovation of the second floor and addition of a roof-top terrace at 12 E California. The building’s first floor, overlooking the canal, is home to Zio’s Italian Restaurant and the Laughing Fish gift shop. The four-story building at 2 E California (including a canal level basement) has been boarded up for at least the past decade, but is best known for the water tower on the roof.

Balconies would be added to both buildings. Designs also call for new windows to be added to the west facade of 2 E California, and an expansion of the patio facing the canal. Harding also wants the city to consider adding a fountain in the reflecting pool of the canal west of 2 E California.

Harding said the purchase from owner Jim Brewer also includes air rights over the surface parking lot south of Zio’s. Brewer would retain control of the surface lot, and Harding is proposing a two- to four-story parking garage over the lot that would be connected to the buildings by a skywalk.

Harding said the second floor of the buildings will be converted into offices, and the third floor of 2 E California will be remodeled into housing.

The investment will exceed $10 million, Harding said.

“We will need some cooperation from the city on this,” he said. “This is an underdeveloped area of Bricktown, and we will need to work with the city to make it work.”

Brewer said he recently bought a parking lot east of Zio’s in a separate transaction from Chris Johnson with intention of developing the property into a hotel. Similar development was envisioned by Johnson, but Brewer said the deal wasn’t doable because he couldn’t find a way to provide parking.

Brewer said his deal with Harding and Shelton includes operating the garage, so that ample parking will be available for both nearby restaurants and a future canal side hotel.

Bricktown Association director Frank Sims applauded Harding and Shelton’s plans, adding the property at 2 E California is an eyesore for visitors enjoying boat rides on the canal.

“We’ve been hoping for this kind of development for many years,” Sims said. “It’s long overdue.

“It’s an embarrassment to have buildings along the canal boarded up with broken glass just sitting there. We don’t want to have prime canal frontage being ignored or underutilized. With all the new development along the south half of the canal, we need to see further renovations in the core.”

jbrown84
09-14-2006, 09:34 AM
You beat me to it Malibu! It's about time somebody did something with that building on the end. I'm glad to see we're not afraid to admit that it's embarassing and actually SAY it in an article (in the Oklahoman!). Sounds like a good plan to me. Fix up the buildings, put a hotel on the canal next to Zio's, and lose two large surface parking lots!

Luke
09-14-2006, 09:45 AM
Very cool. Hope this works and doesn't fizzle like so many a Bricktown project.

OKCNDN
09-14-2006, 06:44 PM
As long as Randy Hogan isn't involved the project will probably be an improvement over what's already there.

OKCNDN
09-14-2006, 06:48 PM
They should put a Native American casino in that building and sit back and watch bricktown business boom.

Patrick
09-15-2006, 06:15 AM
How many times have we heard something like this on a Brewer-involved project? I'm still waiting for the Holiday Inn he's planning to build on the Sante Fe Train Station property, and the storefronts on the Sante Fe Train Station, and the hotel reaching out over the canal on his other property.

I've stopped believing what Brewer has to say.

At least other folks are involved in this, so there is more hope.

If Brewer really wants Bricktown to succeed though he needs to allow free parking on his lots.

Midtowner
09-15-2006, 06:52 AM
They should put a Native American casino in that building and sit back and watch bricktown business boom.

This is the elitist snob in me talking (well hell.. I'm mostly an elitist snob) but hell to the no.

The type of folks typically found in casinos (white trash) are not what we need in Bricktown. There have been numerous studies done (google up "Indian Casino Crime") which have concluded that Indian Casinos bring a lot of crime to the community.

Besides, until local tribes learn to operate a casino of a first class nature, like Harrah's, etc., I don't want them anywhere close to my city center.

What I think would be okay would be a casino easily accessible from Bricktown by water taxi. I'm sure any casino built down the river would be happy to operate such an operation at little or no cost to its patrons. Such an operation could enhance rather than detract from Bricktown.

jbrown84
09-15-2006, 12:10 PM
That building, especially with Laughing Fish already on the main floor, would not be nearly large enough for a casino of any significance. It would be a joke.

metro
09-15-2006, 12:12 PM
I saw that. I hope they actually follow through as planned.

Midtowner
09-15-2006, 12:49 PM
That building, especially with Laughing Fish already on the main floor, would not be nearly large enough for a casino of any significance. It would be a joke.

Amen.

Now, a comedy club, or a second-city type place?

That would be extremely successful I think.

jbrown84
09-15-2006, 02:01 PM
Great thinking, Midtowner. A sketch comedy place like Second City would be so awesome.

Midtowner
09-15-2006, 02:10 PM
Brown -- the trouble is that to support a venue like that, you really need to have a year-round supply of tourists.

I think it could be a reality if we can land a permenant NBA franchise (or other major league sport). Otherwise, I think a standard raunchy comedy club might be the only viable alternative.

fsusurfer
09-15-2006, 02:27 PM
I think if the Loony Bin can survive way down off N.W. Expy then it(or something like it) would do great down in Bricktown. Or maybe something like a Pete's Piano Bar?

jbrown84
09-15-2006, 02:37 PM
Its no different than any live theatre. OKC supports quite a few live theatre companies, and I would imagine something like this would have even more people interested that aren't into regular theatre. Granted, they would probably only be able to have shows thursday-sunday or something like that, but they should do well I would think, and that would be a great location.

traxx
09-15-2006, 03:45 PM
As long as Randy Hogan isn't involved the project will probably be an improvement over what's already there.
Can we stucco the sides of these buildings. Hey let's just tear them down and rebuild stucco buildings with new brick as accents. :tweeted:

Patrick
09-15-2006, 08:10 PM
I really hope they do something with the canal level on these buildings. They look absolutely ugly. Just look below Zios. It's a mud pitt.

maestro
09-20-2006, 09:24 PM
That building has looked horrible since the day the canal opened. I wish whoever owns it would take some pride in the building and in think about what visitors see when they visit Bricktown. That's just wrong.

scotplum
09-21-2006, 01:00 PM
Or maybe something like a Pete's Piano Bar?

I bet you that would do well. Good call.

Easy180
09-21-2006, 01:28 PM
That was tried before with Bricktown Keys...It may work, but it has to have something to draw in the younger crowd to survive in Bricktown...They are the only ones that go out every single weekend

kevinpate
10-06-2006, 12:01 PM
Not sure a comedy club would work at Bricktown these days. There used to be one on Sheridan, across from what's now the parking garage, but it apparently wasn't sustainable in the latter part of the 90's.

As for free parking, there is an abundance of it, in and out of Bricktown, if one is willing to enjoy a very short stroll as part of the evening.

It's been a long time since I paid for a spot in Bricktown, and the last time I did so only because it was a blustery cold eve, enough so the stroll would not have been enjoyable.

Patrick
10-06-2006, 01:30 PM
Personally, I think Brewer needs to give up all of his lots and offer free parking. His greed is hurting Bricktown.

ChristianConservative
10-06-2006, 02:02 PM
Thank Jim Brewer for most of the dumps presently on the canal.

OKCNDN
10-09-2006, 10:18 PM
One thing that Oklahomans will never get used to is the idea of paying anything for parking. Parking is cheap in Bricktown, even at $5 a pop.

ChristianConservative
10-10-2006, 01:16 PM
One thing that Oklahomans will never get used to is the idea of paying anything for parking. Parking is cheap in Bricktown, even at $5 a pop.

True, but wouldn't it be even better if the parking lords thought about the long term, and actually tried to help grow the district by offering free parking, instead of thinking about the short term and the profits they can get from parking now. Oh, remember, these are the same people that continue to sit on properties on the canal and refuse to come down on their leasing rates. They're either going to have to give in soon, or Bricktown is going to dry up and blow away.

metro
10-10-2006, 04:10 PM
I agree. It will go the way of West End if Hogan, Brewer and others don't give in to cheaper parking and lease rates.

ChristianConservative
10-10-2006, 04:18 PM
I agree. It will go the way of West End if Hogan, Brewer and others don't give in to cheaper parking and lease rates.

Hogan is actually offering free parking. It's Brewer that's the problem.

gsan
10-11-2006, 03:50 PM
If you can not afford $5 parking; park a little further out and walk. Everybody whines way too much about the parking. Take a look at other cities, they wish they had $5 parking.

ChristianConservative
10-11-2006, 05:05 PM
If you can not afford $5 parking; park a little further out and walk. Everybody whines way too much about the parking. Take a look at other cities, they wish they had $5 parking.

That's not the point. The point is that Jim Brewer and others are stifling growth in Bricktown by their narrow-minded thinking.

Watson410
10-11-2006, 09:34 PM
You have to make money to spend money right?

Patrick
10-11-2006, 09:43 PM
You have to make money to spend money right? They've more than made their money, and spent little.

Midtowner
10-11-2006, 10:12 PM
True, but wouldn't it be even better if the parking lords thought about the long term, and actually tried to help grow the district by offering free parking, instead of thinking about the short term and the profits they can get from parking now. Oh, remember, these are the same people that continue to sit on properties on the canal and refuse to come down on their leasing rates. They're either going to have to give in soon, or Bricktown is going to dry up and blow away.

Why would they do that?

They invested money (not much and with insider information and connections) -- but they still invested. They have a right to make money off of that investment just as you have the right to get the going (too high) rate for energy resources instead of voluntarily selling it for less than it's worth.

I do think these guys could stand to help Bricktown by backing off a lot on the prices for lunch. The downtown community would really make use of Bricktown for lunch were it cheap to park down there, but it's not. Watch for the new Plaza Court area to become the next lunch mecca.

ChristianConservative
10-12-2006, 08:55 AM
The parking lords are much like parasites that live within the body. They only see the profits they can make in the short term and don't look at the long term. They suck people for all they're worth. Eventually, they die (stop coming to Bricktown). Then the money dries up. They've lost everything, all the money they had invested in their properties and structures.

If Brewer would allow free parking on his lots, maybe he'd be able to lease his properties for the amounts he's asking.

Midtowner
10-12-2006, 09:08 AM
There is ample free parking in Bricktown. You just have to walk a little ways to get where you want to go. Personally, I have no problem with that. There is even a free shuttle service provided by the city.

Like many things in life, if you want luxury, you have to pay extra. Parking next to the place you're going to in an entertainment district like Bricktown is easily worth $5.00 and up. As far as people not going because of this, keep on dreamin'. They're coming in droves, and there's no likelihood of them stopping.

ChristianConservative
10-12-2006, 09:32 AM
There is ample free parking in Bricktown.

Thanks to Randy Hogan.

metro
10-12-2006, 03:39 PM
There is ample free parking in Bricktown. You just have to walk a little ways to get where you want to go. Personally, I have no problem with that. There is even a free shuttle service provided by the city.

Like many things in life, if you want luxury, you have to pay extra. Parking next to the place you're going to in an entertainment district like Bricktown is easily worth $5.00 and up. As far as people not going because of this, keep on dreamin'. They're coming in droves, and there's no likelihood of them stopping.

I agree with everything you said Midtowner, the thing is, most people aren't like you and I the majority of the population, will not pay for parking, especially on a regular basis. You and I and others know where to get the free parking if you look a little harder for it, but most people, especially during busy times don't want to make the effort.

okrednk
10-12-2006, 07:09 PM
I agree with everything you said Midtowner, the thing is, most people aren't like you and I the majority of the population, will not pay for parking, especially on a regular basis. You and I and others know where to get the free parking if you look a little harder for it, but most people, especially during busy times don't want to make the effort.

Then maybe there should be some sort of sign system for free parking?? I do agree that if you want to park next in an entertainment district then you might have to fork out a few bucks to get there. Fine, thats life and in most cities next to a stadium like the Ford center you will always see someone out there lurching the parking lot for parking fees.

OU Adonis
10-12-2006, 09:10 PM
I find it amazing that people complain about $5 parking.

If I go to bricktown for the entertainment value I am guarenteed to spend $5 for just one drink, and pay over 5 to get in just one club.

Back when there was a parking problem, people hated going to bricktown because you coudn't find a space. Now I rarely hear about people complaining about parking(including the cost).

metro
10-13-2006, 11:05 AM
Then maybe there should be some sort of sign system for free parking?? I do agree that if you want to park next in an entertainment district then you might have to fork out a few bucks to get there. Fine, thats life and in most cities next to a stadium like the Ford center you will always see someone out there lurching the parking lot for parking fees.

I don't think that would work either. Most of the free parking is minimal such as parking meters (don't have to pay after 6pm or on weekends) Or you can park on the street in deep deuce or in the very far public lot south of Bass Pro on the South side of I-40. You don't want to have a weird sign saying park at the parking meters after 6pm!!! when it is pay during the eariler part of the day. The signs would be just too awkward and more hassle than they ae worth. With any of these you will have to walk a decent distance but it is free. The only reason it is minimal is most people don't want to walk that far.

BricktownGuy
10-13-2006, 12:09 PM
You don't want to have a weird sign saying park at the parking meters after 6pm!!! when it is pay during the eariler part of the day. The signs would be just too awkward and more hassle than they ae worth.

I am currently in London, England.. and signs like these exist all over this city.

Patrick
10-13-2006, 08:03 PM
I don't think that would work either. Most of the free parking is minimal such as parking meters (don't have to pay after 6pm or on weekends) Or you can park on the street in deep deuce or in the very far public lot south of Bass Pro on the South side of I-40. You don't want to have a weird sign saying park at the parking meters after 6pm!!! when it is pay during the eariler part of the day. The signs would be just too awkward and more hassle than they ae worth. With any of these you will have to walk a decent distance but it is free. The only reason it is minimal is most people don't want to walk that far.

Ummm, all of the parking arounf the movie theater, Toby Keith's, etc. is free. Randy Hogan doesn't have any pay parking. The Bass Pro lot is free.

The only lots that charge are 3 or 4 small lots right in the middle of Bricktown and the Bricktown Parking Garage.

johnnyboyokc
10-15-2006, 01:06 AM
First of all no one here gives Mr. Brewer any respect, you would'nt even have a place to go if it was'nt for him.........Randy Hogan bought the whole lower bricktown for a dollar a foot, so does any business man know what that means. (every plat in upper bricktown is controled by many different investors) So i will tell you what the problem is RESTAURANT OWNERS they dont want to pay the parking owners.....

in example you pay 1 million for a piece of land at 6% for 30 yrs it costs you 6000 or more a month....how does jim brewer get return on his investment if he gives away the parking

here is the problem you guys have never invested money and jim brewer has, tough luck i dont see you bitching at a bob howard just because he makes money

answer quit going to bricktown, ha ha nobody else will

jbrown84
10-15-2006, 10:05 PM
It just simply doesn't bother me that the closer Bricktown parking lots charge a few bucks. The lazies can pay or stay away and I'll park a little farther away and get some exercise. Anyone who's been in other urban entertainment districts knows they are going to have to pony up for the good parking. I went to a suburban shopping center in Colorado Springs that had parking meters on all the spots closest to the buildings!

johnnyboyokc
10-21-2006, 11:55 PM
you are exactly right! So why does it matter who owns them.......

BDP
10-23-2006, 02:48 PM
here is the problem you guys have never invested money

Here's the real problem: making idiotic assumptions like that tend to invalidate all of your other sentiments. If you have access to every registered user's portfolio, then maybe you can talk. You might be surprised to find out who you just accused of not having made any investments.

metro
10-23-2006, 02:50 PM
back to topic: I drove by a few days ago and it appeared they were gutting out the building. I didn't notice any new windows but a dumpster is out back and guys were hauling out debris of the building.

jbrown84
10-24-2006, 09:14 AM
Moving fast. I like that. If Cheesecake Factory can come in and build a restaurant in three months, then there is no reason for all these downtown projects to take YEARS.

BDP
10-24-2006, 01:56 PM
Well, to be fair, building from the ground up can be a lot easier that renovating old buildings. Also, the Cheesecake Factory already has a model and they just tweak it for their locations. I'm guessing there is more than one CF that has the same design and floor plan as the Penn Square one. It's more plug and play.

That being said, things do seem to move slow around here. I doubt they could be Cheesecake fast, but it does seem many drag their feet for some reason.

Patrick
10-24-2006, 04:45 PM
To be honest with you, I hope the north canal regains it's prominence and fills up over the next few years. The empty buildings are ideal for unique shops, not pad-type businesses like Randy Hogan is offering. When you see pictures of Bricktown, it's not Lower Bricktown you see....it's the north canal along California Ave.

jbrown84
10-26-2006, 10:59 AM
Well, to be fair, building from the ground up can be a lot easier that renovating old buildings. Also, the Cheesecake Factory already has a model and they just tweak it for their locations. I'm guessing there is more than one CF that has the same design and floor plan as the Penn Square one. It's more plug and play.

That being said, things do seem to move slow around here. I doubt they could be Cheesecake fast, but it does seem many drag their feet for some reason.

All true, but I was also talking about "ground up" projects like The Hill, Legacy Summit, etc.

johnnyboyokc
10-28-2006, 03:09 AM
basically what you are saying is no matter who owns them lets build to suit to make it all better however things are growing at a very rapid pace and nobody in okc should have a complaint, mr brewer is not a rich man(but everyone thinks so) and doesnt want to build out his property in case his sons have to take on all the debt ( oh how i wish i were a son)

Midtowner
10-28-2006, 06:36 PM
Brewer obtained that property from the public. The public trusted him to build it in the best way he could. If this was the best he could do, the public clearly chose poorly.

Moshe Tal had a better plan and much more impressive commitments. We're all in teh right for being critical of Hogan for doing such a piss poor job with lower Bricktown.

johnnyboyokc
10-28-2006, 11:35 PM
mr. brewer obtained all his land by private means. He has never been given public land like mr. hogan thank you............get your facts right!!!!!!!!

Popsy
10-29-2006, 05:17 PM
I have noticed in my brief time on this forum that when it comes to bricktown and lower bricktown facts tend to be ignored and manufactured facts to suit their purpose are presented by the detractors. I would really like to see a copy of Moshe Tal's plan and his financial information as they are continuously brought up in this forum. The last I heard he didn't have the money to pay the attorney fees granted to the city by the court over his frivolus lawsuit.

Midtowner
10-29-2006, 05:29 PM
mr. brewer obtained all his land by private means. He has never been given public land like mr. hogan thank you............get your facts right!!!!!!!!

You're right. I'm wrong. I had him confused with Hogan.

My apologies.

Midtowner
10-29-2006, 05:31 PM
I have noticed in my brief time on this forum that when it comes to bricktown and lower bricktown facts tend to be ignored and manufactured facts to suit their purpose are presented by the detractors. I would really like to see a copy of Moshe Tal's plan and his financial information as they are continuously brought up in this forum. The last I heard he didn't have the money to pay the attorney fees granted to the city by the court over his frivolus lawsuit.

Whether he could pay the city's attorney's fees or not is irrelevant to whether or not he had the funds available to build what he had proposed. Developers sometimes have to rely on investors for their startup capital -- that was Tal's plan all along. The problem often cited was that Tal's investors were anonymous (which was a major reason the city said it went with Hogan).

In Hogan's case, his investors weren't anonymous -- they were just nonexistent :)

Popsy
10-29-2006, 07:36 PM
Nonexistent? Are you presenting that as a fact? I remember him naming them, but I can't remember the name, however I believe it was the company that owns Globe Life. I also remember Hogan's company paying over three million dollars for the land in lower bricktown, yet you claim it was given to him. Granted the city reinvested the money it received in the plaza and fountain area, but that was the city's choice.

I have no joy in what Hogan was able to do, but he was able to at least do something after having all of his orignal plans killed by Moshe's lawsuit. From what I remember about Tal all he did was talk. He could not show he had the resources or investors, or even any real renderings of the project he proposed. I heard heresay during that time that the only way he got Cordish interested was to claim that the City would provide millions of dollars to help build the project. Common sense also makes me ask why Cordish would even be interested in OKC unless there was a massive infusion of public funds.

Personally, I am much more disappointed in how upper bricktown turned out than what I am in Lower Bricktown. I blame the city for what happened when they did not lock up the property owners into binding agreements as to the appearance of their properties, their useage and rent controls. Everyone of those buildings should have shops and other business on the canal or street levels and offices or condo's on the top floors were it not for the ridiculous rents that the carpetbaggers are asking.

I have said enough, but I am still curious to know if you or Patrick have anything in the way of proof or real facts to back up your claims about Moshe Tal and the wonderful job he would have done in Lower Bricktown had he been given the chance by the 'good ole boys network'.

Midtowner
10-29-2006, 07:49 PM
Allow me to respond later. That does deserve a response, but I want to do it right and provide a little research. Right now time constraints forbid that.

PM me if I don't respond soon. Don't let me forget. Thanks.

As for upper bricktown, if it had been subsidized at near the same level as Hogan's boondoggle, it would have been amazing. Even so, it is an excellent development -- by far the best the state has to offer.

Popsy
10-30-2006, 08:36 AM
As part of your research I hope that you can find copies of the "much more impressive commitments" that Tal provided to the city when he made his pitch or were they anonymous also? So far as your opinion goes that Upper Bricktown is the most impressive development in Oklahoma, I would agree that it is the most impressive deveopment in Oklahoma that has a canal associated with it.

downtownguy
10-30-2006, 07:46 PM
Midtowner, would you consider taking Tal on as a business partner?

johnnyboyokc
11-03-2006, 01:37 AM
First of all no one would take that partnership....Karchmer tolbert and brewer have made upper bricktown by feeding it with property taxes...with no rent checks coming in.....hogan claimed his property for a dollar a foot(which i think is great now because it is another piece to the puzzle) that is what no one understands....lets all make this city successful...who cares if its western memorial bricktown southside it about time we have different districts