Does God want Joel Osteen to be mega-rich?

You know -- NBA-stadium-owning, first-class-flying, flight-attendant-assaulting, huge-mansion-owning?

Absolutely...the 21st Century God has finally discovered that bling bling and multi-million dollar chapels are now the preferred methods of teaching Christians to be humble and charitable...As long as the charity goes directly to the new Jumbotron video screen for the chapel :kicking:

I like the question. You might extend it out to "How rich is rich enough?".

Living a completely opulent lifestyle is something that has always turned me off on people. I find myself wondering, why does someone need a $100,000 car, a 12 million dollar house, etc., when that money could do so much good elsewhere?

I'm not talking about Joel specifically here, I'm just talking about flaunting ridiculous wealth in general.

joel certainly deserves to get paid for his work. while his salary as pastor of lakewood is nothing to sneeze at, most of his money comes from book sales. since the bulk of his wealth doesn't line his pockets directly from the church coffers, osteen might not be the best example.

does god want joel osteen to be filthy rich? i doubt it. i don't think that any servant of god should live in opulence by profiting from a message that is allegedly inspired by god. besides that, it's counterproductive for him to live a celebrity lifestyle... the focus should be on god, not on joel osteen. so, it's bad for joel and it's bad for those who follow joel.

since this is a pointed question, i'll ask a pointed question in return... does god want the pope to live like a king and be surrounded by wealth and splendor? -M

m -- interesting question. I never really looked into the Pope's lifestyle, but Benedict, it seems would tend to agree with you.


han that of his predecessor, in tune with the concerns of young Christians who are ill-at-ease with rampant consumerism, environmental degradation and a continuing wealth gap.

Benedict has cut down the permanent staffing levels in his appartamento to three domestic workers. In interviews ahead of the Cologne visit, his right-hand man, the dashingly blond 48-year-old Georg Gänswein, led camera crews around the Vatican's farm, showing off its palatial hen coops, happy cows, insecticide-free tomatoes and organic milk factory.

And not for the new Pope a bulletproof Volkswagen Touareg for his visit to Cologne; John Paul II's 25-year-old Popemobile sufficed. In a similar vein, Benedict is said to have done away with the requirement for his visitors to kiss his hand, and in a profoundly symbolic gesture has ordered the tiara - a symbol of the Holy See's worldwide might - to be removed from the papal coat of arms. Finally, unlike Wojtyla, Benedict speaks of himself in the first person rather than using the 'royal we'.

'His bywords are learning, helping, healing. He is not interested in the spectacular but in that which is important,' said German theologian Eugen Biser, who speaks of the Benediktinisierung (the Benedictine-isation) of the Catholic faith under the new Pope.

Peter Fuchs, a German Catholic sociologist, has welcomed the change of style and expressed hopes the World Youth Day festival - launched by John Paul II in 1985 - will be scrapped under his successor. 'We live in an age of spectacle, and perhaps it is time for the church to break from that phenomenon and show the way.'
(sorry, forgot to get the link before I moved on)

For someone who 'is the job,' in other words, he has no vacation, no time off, no recreation, just work, all day, every day, the support staff, and some of the amenities are justified.

As for 'living like a king,' the Pope only occupies a very small part of the Vatican.

Some more on his 'luxurious lifestyle.'


Many Americans often assume, by way of analogy to Air Force One, that the pope has his own plane that he uses on all his travels, perhaps with office space, living quarters, meeting rooms and so on. In fact, the pope does not own an airplane. When he flies out of Italy, he does so on a plane provided by Alitalia, the national carrier of Italy. When he comes home, he normally takes the national carrier of the country from which he is returning. In this case, that means Lufthansa. In either case, these are normal commercial planes that were probably in service the day before and will be again the day after. His lone "perk," so to speak, is that he sits up front in a first class seat. Occasionally, especially for longer flights, the plane will be modified slightly; when John Paul II flew to Toronto in 2002, for example, some of the seating in the first class cabin was removed so that a full bed could be installed. Normally, however, he rides more or less like any other passenger.

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/wyd081905a.htm

I'm not really sure how you feel he "lives like a king." Sure, he doesn't live like a regular person, but would it be realistic for the Pope to do his own grocery shopping? Go to the mall on weekends? Normal things? Nope. It also wouldn't be safe for him.

Most of the Vatican's treasures these days are on display to the public. The Vatican is certainly not a 'for profit' business. The trappings of the Church are certainly not the private property of the individuals within it. That, I think is a key distinction. Clergy of the Catholic church dedicate their lives to the Church, not to making sure they have enough retirement benefits and savings accrued that they might live comfortably upon 'retirement' (something most Catholic clergy never really do).

The Pope's lifestyle has a purpose. He's the head of the largest organization in the world. Naturally, he's going to lead a different lifestyle. On the other hand, guys like Osteen are packing away millions of dollars so that they might enhance their own personal luxuries. The difference between the two is quite real.

Here's another reason why televangilists and the Pope are not comparable:

These guys may be the head of as many as one church, or in Craig Groeschel's case, a franchise of 'em consisting of as many as 20? franchise operations.

The Pope is not only the head of the largest church in the world with more individual churches than anyone else, he's also a head of state.

I'd personally have to say that the American President's lifestyle is far more lavish than the Pope's. Both are heads of state, neither necessarily lives like a King. Of the two, only the Pope has taken a no-frills attitude towards his amenities.

An American President gets paid in the neighborhood of around $250,000 a year. Far less than any corporate CEO or they could make elsewise. In addition, if an American President (Republican or Democrat) were to act and live as "humble" as the Pope as you put it. They would be killed. It would be a national threat or security issue. The Pope is not in charge of the country he resides in, just Vatican City and yet he has bodyguards and a bullet-proof vehicle, just like an American President.

As far as bringing Craig Groechel up in this case. If you have such a problem with him all the time, why don't you meet him face to face instead of parading behind his back on an online chat forum.

Metro: The security surrounding the Pope is often similar (or better than) the American President.

Also, the Vatican City is a country, so yes, the Pope is literally the head of state. I'm not aware that the Pope receives a salary at all.

I don't think God cares how much Joel Osteen makes, as long as he's making the money honestly. There's nothing wrong with investing your money wisely and being wealthy. I bet he still gives a large share to missions and to help the poor.

Look at Bill Gates....he gives tons of money a way, but still has enough to live a wealthy life.

Trading on Jesus' name in order to become wealthy is one of the reasons He died for us?

What chapter and verse is that?

Joel Osteen (who charges to attend his evangelistic rallies) would seem to have problems with the two verses that follow. In fact, all the "prosperity teachers" who preach that brand of materialistic gospel (to appeal to Western minds - and pocketbooks) always dance around this as well as any spin in American politics.......Pleaase, to have an intelligent discussion on this topic, these two verses must be read carefully.

“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon” (Matthew 6:19-24)

and

A young man approached Jesus and said,
“Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good?
There is only One who is good.
If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
He asked him, “Which ones?”
And Jesus replied, “You shall not kill;
you shall not commit adultery;
you shall not steal;
you shall not bear false witness;
honor your father and your mother;
and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
The young man said to him,
“All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go,
sell what you have and give to the poor,
and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad,
for he had many possessions.
(Matthew 19:16-22)

Joel, Craig, Paul Crouch......ad infinitum.....???????

To me, it's pretty clear - it's not how much you have, it's how much you have left over after taking care of God's children. It's a problem for biblical literalists - spin aside.

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Metro: The security surrounding the Pope is often similar (or better than) the American President.

Also, the Vatican City is a country, so yes, the Pope is literally the head of state. I'm not aware that the Pope receives a salary at all.

Okay, I will give you those. And the security thing I pretty much agreed with. What about my other question. I'll repeat.

As far as bringing Craig Groechel up in this case. If you have such a problem with him all the time, why don't you meet him face to face instead of parading behind his back on an online chat forum.

Can you actually meet Craig face to face or does it have to be via videoconference? :kicking:

Okay, I will give you those. And the security thing I pretty much agreed with. What about my other question. I'll repeat.

As far as bringing Craig Groechel up in this case. If you have such a problem with him all the time, why don't you meet him face to face instead of parading behind his back on an online chat forum.

Yeah, I'm sure I'm going to convince this guy who is making millions of dollars to abandon his enterprise because it's probably not something Jesus would have stood for.

Yep sure.

I've met Craig. I can't say where, but I've met the guy. Nice enough man from a good family. Does that mean that I can't disagree with what he's doing? Sure doesn't.

It's not just Craig either. It's the entire Jeebus (i.e. charismatic) movement of Christianity. It's all about sunshine and buttercups and love and happiness and I'm okay/you're okay, eat your vitamins, don't spend more money than you make, etc. while basically tabling most of the substantial intellectual/difficult issues in Christianity. Christ isn't your Buddy Jesus, he's a saviour, part of the Trinity -- it's pretty heavy stuff. I'd say "Give it some thought sometime," but you're charismatic, so...

Trading on Jesus' name in order to become wealthy is one of the reasons He died for us?

What chapter and verse is that?

No, it's called being the CEO of a mega Christian non-profit organization.

I just have one thing to add:



In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" (John 2:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=2&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=31&context=context))

There will be a day of reckoning.

"Preacher needs a new watch! Don't ask no questions"

The Bible also says you're to pay a man what he's worth.

the bible also says you're to pay a man what he's worth.

i agree, luke 10:7 states: '...the labourer is worthy of his hire...' christ said this when he sent out the seventy to deliver his message. however, this was done so that christ's disciples wouldn't be distracted from their work by also having to earn a living. in contrast, people like joel and craig richly profit from what they market as the word of god through their salaries and book deals so that they can drive luxury cars and live in executive mansions. we should pay our ministers so that they can focus on god's work, not so that they can live lives of luxury. -M

oops... i'm only now responding to this.


as for 'living like a king,' the pope only occupies a very small part of the vatican.
whether you're a king, the pope or joel osteen you can only live in one room at a time. the pope's papal pad is a seven room apartment, with chapel, roof-garden, staff quarters and medical facilities. granted, it's been made a bit less kingly since vatican ii... but as ruler of the catholic church he lives in facilities more like queen elizabeth ii than you or me. i'm not saying that's right or wrong... i'm just saying that's the way it is.

for someone who 'is the job,' in other words, he has no vacation, no time off, no recreation, just work, all day, every day, the support staff, and some of the amenities are justified. the apostle peter had no posh papal palace... did he ever dream of living in that fashion? how about the rest of the catholic priesthood... they don't live like that... are they slackers?

in fact, the pope does not own an airplane wait a sec... let me go get my violin. so the pope wants to fly someplace... some country's airline says, 'here you go pope, take our plane'.... that seems even better than owning your own. yet again, not saying that's wrong.

most of the vatican's treasures these days are on display to the public. so are england's. are you saying elizabeth ii isn't a queen?


i respect the pontiff, and i'd never put him in the same category as these errr... gentlemen. i'm also aware of the current pope's efforts to 'trim the fat' so-to-speak, and i respect that. however, it's hard for me not to compare some of his trappings to that of these other 'leaders.' i agree that these comparisons can be largely reconciled, but to many the appearance of wrongdoing is sometimes as harmful as wrongdoing itself. -M

i respect the pontiff, and i'd never put him in the same category as these errr... gentlemen. i'm also aware of the current pope's efforts to 'trim the fat' so-to-speak, and i respect that. however, it's hard for me not to compare some of his trappings to that of these other 'leaders.' i agree that these comparisons can be largely reconciled, but to many the appearance of wrongdoing is sometimes as harmful as wrongdoing itself. -M
sendpm.gif

I'll agree with you on that point. I think the Pope would as well; hence his efforts to divest his role of some of its seemingly 'royal' trappings.

You say the Pope's living accomodations are posh in that he has that seven room apartment with the roof-garden, medical facilities, etc. I think all of those can be more-less attributed to the sacrifices of the office (much like Queen Elizabeth).

Consider that if the Pope goes to a hospital, visits a garden, or does anything in public, not only is he in mortal danger as he's probably the at the top of a lot of hit lists right now, he's also putting the public in danger. Personally, I don't want the Pope staying in the same hospital I'm in so that I get to be collateral damage when Mr. Dirka-Dirka-Mohammed-Jihad wants to make a point about political/religious oppression or something to taht effect.

As to most Priests living like Apostle Peter, one need look no further than south of the equator to find priests and nuns being routinely martyred, tortured, oppressed, etc. I'd say their living conditions in many if not most cases are comparable to Peter's if not worse. This extends up to the level of Cardinal. In some countries, no man of the cloth is safe. Many of these religious people consider this to be acceptable risk for spreading the faith.

Now, some of our men of the cloth north of the equator are just as bad as Osteen. I knew one local Priest in Edmond who actually employed a personal chef. We switched to a different church because of this guy's behavior. This church (St. John the Baptist) was not much unlike one of these more charismatic congregations. They still employ professional musicians, they still hire professional fund raisers, etc. I don't really agree with the way that church is run.

St. Joseph's downtown though? A nice fit for me :)

I don't think God ever said earning lots of money was a sin. Hey, with all the money that church has, there's plenty to pay Joel the big bucks, and do tons of mission work.

What's sad is Joel Osteen is penalized for his success by having to pay a higher percentage of taxes than the middle and lower classes.

Do you feel that all people in that tax bracket are penalized, or just Joel Osteen and other people like him?

Do you feel that all people in that tax bracket are penalized, or just Joel Osteen and other people like him?

All people in that tax bracket are penalized. The Democrat's system is to progressively tax the wealthy more than the poor. Some rich people pay as much as 50% of their income in taxes. That isn't right, when a poor person is only paying 6%. It should be the same percentage across the board. Liberals penalize the rich for their success. Why should a person that has to work hard for his or her money, have to pay for welfare for the poor guy that made poor choices in life?

I'm aware of how the tax system works. I was just curious to see if you would extend the same sympathy to a lawyer or doctor.

However, one should not assume that the "poor guy" always made "poor choices" in his life. I am not paid much for what I do as a teacher, but I do not feel I made poor choices in my life.

However, one should not assume that the "poor guy" always made "poor choices" in his life. I am not paid much for what I do as a teacher, but I do not feel I made poor choices in my life.

Would your husband agree?

Nope -- and she's not poor.

Nope -- and she's not poor.

So, you don't agree with your wife, and you think that poor people have made "poor" choices in life? Is that correct?

In my case, he realizes that I do not value money as much as the other benefits of my job. Therefore, I made a "poor choice" when it comes to money. So I guess I'm not allowed to complain about not making much money because I'm getting what I asked for. He can think that if he wants.

At least I know I get a raise every year ;) It may not be much but it adds up over time.

In my case, he realizes that I do not value money as much as the other benefits of my job. Therefore, I made a "poor choice" when it comes to money. So I guess I'm not allowed to complain about not making much money because I'm getting what I asked for. He can think that if he wants.

At least I know I get a raise every year ;) It may not be much but it adds up over time.

With vacations and all, you barely work half a year. Why should you get paid more than 40K a year? Looking at it from that perspective, you're making pretty good money. No complaints or whining necessary.

I don't make anywhere near 40k a year.

I'm sorry you think that we "barely work half a year." Do you want me to tell you how many days out of the summer I was at my school, or in professional development?

I am most certainly not complaining about my salary. You think that teachers are lazy? They're TIRED. They work a lot of hours outside that school.

Now, I know I'm not going to change your mind, because you're more than likely set in your "teachers are crappy and overpaid" mindset, so whatever. I just had to say that. People like you make my job more difficult than it needs to be.

By the way, just what do YOU do for a living?

I don't make anywhere near 40k a year.

I'm sorry you think that we "barely work half a year." Do you want me to tell you how many days out of the summer I was at my school, or in professional development?

I am most certainly not complaining about my salary. You think that teachers are lazy? They're TIRED. They work a lot of hours outside that school.

Now, I know I'm not going to change your mind, because you're more than likely set in your "teachers are crappy and overpaid" mindset, so whatever. I just had to say that. People like you make my job more difficult than it needs to be.

By the way, just what do YOU do for a living?

I'm the CEO of a small energy company in the city.

Professional development? Why do you bother? Your district rewards you with a whole $400 extra a year for continuing education. Whoopie.

I'm the CEO of a small energy company in the city.

Professional development? Why do you bother? Your district rewards you with a whole $400 extra a year for continuing education. Whoopie.

Have you considered that the motivation might not be money? Imagine that! A teacher who wants to improve - to help kids! Of course, that would be akin to an energy company CEO who only wants to provide energy for the sake of energy - as opposed to profiting from the need for energy. On second thought, you wouldn't understand the teacher who simply wants to teach.....it's a foreign concept I'm sure.

----

Actually, I wasn't paid anything for the development. I teach at a charter school that offers a program for "historically underserved" first-generation college-bound students. The professional development was to learn about ways of implementing the techniques of that program into our regular classes. The trip was paid for by grant money, we were given a food stipend and our hotel was paid for. I received no income from this trip.

I "bother", as you so delicately put it, because I would like to be a better teacher, and I feel it is necessary to be a life-long learner to do so.

I shared your comment about how teachers are paid too much and how we only work "barely half a year" with some veteran teachers this evening. They laughed. They find you quite entertaining.

Unless you have been a teacher, suffice it to say you do not know what it is like. There are many more hours spent outside of the classroom that most people don't hear about. We grade, plan, go on trips, and if you're a band director like me (moreso at larger schools with football programs) you give up every Friday night and most Saturdays, along with evening rehearsals, and morning rehearsals. It totals up to quite a few more than 40 hrs/week.

You must have had some good teachers at some point in your educational career if you are a CEO, even for a small energy company. You seem to have a real problem with the profession--why is that? I'd love to know.

I am not complaining about my profession; as a matter of fact, I dearly love what I do. I spent my years in college preparing for this, learning as much as I could in my field so I could pass on what I know to future generations. You can ask my husband, and other people on this board, how much I love my job. I wouldn't trade my job at my little charter school for anything; a higher paycheck, or more recognition for what I do would not persuade me to leave. I stay for the students. They keep me young, sane, and feeling like I have actually accomplished something important with my life. I know that I have helped people, young people who needed help in the worst way...can you say that about your job?

Actually, I wasn't paid anything for the development. I teach at a charter school that offers a program for "historically underserved" first-generation college-bound students. The professional development was to learn about ways of implementing the techniques of that program into our regular classes. The trip was paid for by grant money, we were given a food stipend and our hotel was paid for. I received no income from this trip.

I "bother", as you so delicately put it, because I would like to be a better teacher, and I feel it is necessary to be a life-long learner to do so.

I shared your comment about how teachers are paid too much and how we only work "barely half a year" with some veteran teachers this evening. They laughed. They find you quite entertaining.

Unless you have been a teacher, suffice it to say you do not know what it is like. There are many more hours spent outside of the classroom that most people don't hear about. We grade, plan, go on trips, and if you're a band director like me (moreso at larger schools with football programs) you give up every Friday night and most Saturdays, along with evening rehearsals, and morning rehearsals. It totals up to quite a few more than 40 hrs/week.

You must have had some good teachers at some point in your educational career if you are a CEO, even for a small energy company. You seem to have a real problem with the profession--why is that? I'd love to know.

I am not complaining about my profession; as a matter of fact, I dearly love what I do. I spent my years in college preparing for this, learning as much as I could in my field so I could pass on what I know to future generations. You can ask my husband, and other people on this board, how much I love my job. I wouldn't trade my job at my little charter school for anything; a higher paycheck, or more recognition for what I do would not persuade me to leave. I stay for the students. They keep me young, sane, and feeling like I have actually accomplished something important with my life. I know that I have helped people, young people who needed help in the worst way...can you say that about your job?

Kudos to you, bandnerd. I made my view known to this "Christian" conservative in the post just above yours. Keep up the good work!

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bandnerd, I made the statement that you only work half a year. You stated that you do professional development during the summer. Obviously, that's completely optional, and it's completely up to you what you do with your time off. Why should we pay you for your time off, regardless of what you do with it? Whether you go to Europe or take continuing education, it's your time off, not time spent on the job teaching your students.

Have you considered that the motivation might not be money? Imagine that! A teacher who wants to improve - to help kids! Of course, that would be akin to an energy company CEO who only wants to provide energy for the sake of energy - as opposed to profiting from the need for energy. On second thought, you wouldn't understand the teacher who simply wants to teach.....it's a foreign concept I'm sure.

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She's making the money she makes because of the choice she made in life. Simple as that. If she's happy with the choice she made, great.

Actually, all teachers at my school are required to attend this particular convention. Just so you know.

Has anybody seen the rather large, white mansion on SW 104th west of Penn? The owner of that residence is the pastor of the Crossroads Cathedral at Shields and 89th.

Talk about high roller...

that has got to be one of the worst designed mansions... with garages sticking out on both sides of the structure, it looks like a 10,000 sq. ft. duplex. tacky.

their old house on around sw 100th & broadway was recently on the market. it's just as tacky... stereotypical early 70's tacky. my folks live in the same neighborhood as that house. they remember in the eighties when the pastor's wife would drive drive by in a cadillac on her way to worship at crossroads... immediately after worship she'd drive back to the house to swap cars for her beamer. now that's class. -M

he doesnt care
the christian god deos because the christian god doesnt exist for them he exists to make their lives hell
i have noticed in many churches when you bring up that some guy is rich and a bad person they say it is him following satan
how come god doesnt help those who follow him he pretty much says die alone and live a horrid life then you can see me

that has got to be one of the worst designed mansions... with garages sticking out on both sides of the structure, it looks like a 10,000 sq. ft. duplex. tacky.

their old house on around sw 100th & broadway was recently on the market. it's just as tacky... stereotypical early 70's tacky. my folks live in the same neighborhood as that house. they remember in the eighties when the pastor's wife would drive drive by in a cadillac on her way to worship at crossroads... immediately after worship she'd drive back to the house to swap cars for her beamer. now that's class. -M

Uhh where exactly is sw 100th and Broadway?

it's in the middle of a subdivision called ranchwood.

broadway is just west of santa fe. technically, it ends at 100th... so the property is actually at the corner of brentwood & sw 100th... 137 SW 100th to be precise.

here's a map (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=137+SW+100th,+73139&ie=UTF8&z=15&om=1&iwloc=A). does that clear it up? -M


http://pictures5.mlsgateway.com/MediaDisplay/hr256162-1.jpg

As a "southsider", I had no idea Broadway still existed around 104th....

Isn't it slightly creepy that we know exactly where this person lives?

I couldn't be famous in any way.

bandnerd, i grew up in that neighborhood... besides, look at that house... kinda hard for me not to know. none of the other houses in that neighborhood are anywhere near as garish. -M

If I were to give my last name on this forum you all would easily be able to find out exactly where I live.

Don't waste your time--I live somewhere in the Twin Lakes addition, and that's the best anyone will find...

Cleveland County Assessor (http://www.clevelandcountyassessor.us/)

bandnerd, i grew up in that neighborhood... besides, look at that house... kinda hard for me not to know. -M


bwhahahahahaha so very true.

It wouldn't be that hard to figure out where I live, either, given the information that has been put on this board.

I was thinking more along the lines of being a celebrity...having people standing outside your gates, taking pictures, being nuisances, etc....I think that's more what would bother me than just people knowing.

Well what else would OKC Talk be good for?

...one more thing, i grabbed the pic online; it was only available since the house was recently on the market. i don't go around snapping pics of old preachers' homes. -M

You can find a pic of any home south of 89th at the link I provided.

haha... my house escaped having its photo taken! pretty cool tool, though.

heck if you wanted you can find out what every house in america is worth, for about 5 bucks i think is the cost, online and that comes with a pic as well

So where is this?

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I like the question. You might extend it out to "How rich is rich enough?".

Living a completely opulent lifestyle is something that has always turned me off on people. I find myself wondering, why does someone need a $100,000 car, a 12 million dollar house, etc., when that money could do so much good elsewhere?

I'm not talking about Joel specifically here, I'm just talking about flaunting ridiculous wealth in general.

I could not agree with you more....

We have alot of friends in high places. One who lives in a 2 mil house, just the 2 of them" very prominent Edmond figure, has been for years. Another one is a very well known builder here, lives in Mullholland, his wife is my youngest daughter's godmother, but we have known them for about 15 or more years and go to the lake with them, Edmond attorneys, City personel etc. Alot of them just have 2, but this HUGE house, a suburban, etc. If I just had me and my hubby, I would be driving a VW (my dream car) and living in a small farm house (the cosier the better) on acreage. I just do not understand why it has to be so BIGGER IS BETTER. I would rather donate the money to feel good about myself, then wrap myself in luxury to feel good.....

I think that Christianity is going to an extreme in what they pay their pastors, and that they are constantly building something to collect money for it, my church included. I just think, as christian people it is about saving others, helping the needy that mean more, and all these people I mentioned above are christian people who probably do give though, but maybe should give more and live smaller.

Maybe YES...Maybe NO! But he is being tested! Is he rich or does he just earn lots of money but gives much of it to otheres? I do not know this. I just hope he does use any wealth he gets for use in God's Kingdom. To be rich toward god is to not build your own wealth beyond measure but to spread it among those no so chosen.

I may end up regretting putting my toes into this pool, but for whatever reason, I'm gonna..

You might be surprised to hear an opinion that starts out by saying the whole wealth discussion is "people" focused, not God-focused. Put a different way, we're not really debating what might be God's perspective on wealth, it's been centered around whether we, as people, think that certain people's wealth - particularly if they are affilated with some sort of religious group - is proper, right, or properly used.

First, several have offered the scripture in which Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." Many take that as a unilateral indictment of wealth, and that's not necessarily what's meant here. Does God forbid wealth? No.

Solomon, because when offered the chance to ask for anything of God, he asked for Godly wisdom. Because he put God's wisdom first, God chose to add to him unimaginable wealth - because He knew that wasn't Solomon's "big deal."

Conversely, in the new testament, the rich young ruler was sent away sad when Jesus told him to sell all he had, and give it to the poor. Was it because he hadn't given enough to the poor? No. Was it because he was too wealthy? No. It was because money was first in his life. See, a poor, penniless, destitute person could have the same problem as the rich young ruler.

So what does that first passage of scripture teach? Recall that in among the Jewish community at that time, wealth was perceived as an outside measure of God's prosperity or favor shown upon you, eg "God loves him, because he's so wealthy." The truth Jesus was teaching them was that wealth didn't prove anything. This was a shocking teaching. The presence of wealth, per se, is not a bar to being right with God, no more than the absence of wealth is a per se guarantee of being right with God.

The point, after all that, is that the question isn't about your wealth, or lack thereof; it is about where your heart is with God. Is it desirous of reconciliation to Him through Christ, or isn't it?

Surely, Christ taught his followers to distribute to the necessity of saints, to give to the poor, care for widows, etc. But doing that, all of that, doesn't mean you have a God-reconciled heart. Giving to others is nice, commendable, certainly consistent with Christian teaching, but it doesn't necesarily say where your heart is with God.

I personally am very cautious about any of the "wealth, health, and prosperity" evangelicals, because none of it is scripturally sound. I know of extended family members that became disillusioned about Christianity because they became affiliated with precisely that kind of group; and when people started "claiming" pickup trucks and money, and it didn't materialize, they had to learn a hard lesson that God is neither a slot machine nor a pony performing tricks for a master...God distributes wealth and resources and health and (whatever) to accomplish His works precisely in accordance with His will, not whether "we" think it is appropriate.

I don't know enough about Joel Osteen to make much of a comment intelligently one way or the other about him in particular, but what little I've seen suggests he might fall into that category....I remember the huge TV ministry ol' Robert Tilton started several years ago was exposed when it was discovered that thousands of letters requesting prayers had been had been thrown in a dumpster unread, after telling people he'd pray over each one individually, and as I recall, "for a small donation..."

-SoonerDave