For those of you that may not know, it was mentioned in the Oklahoman a few weeks ago that our very own ODTG, challenged St. Anthony's plan to tear down dilapidated structures to further their campus expansion plan.
In my opinion the structures were in now way shape or form worth saving, and the actions on the part of Olddowntownguy only served to put roadblocks in the way of St. Anthony's progress. If they were historic structures, I could see opposing, but it appeared to me that he was simply trying to stand up against a corporate power.

Olddowntownguy, I'd like to open the floor to requst that you explain why you opposed the measures.

In my opinion the structures were in no way shape or form worth saving, . . .

In this case Patrick, my direct experience rehabilitating buildings in much worse condition than those in question into profitable rental properties would be contrary to your opinion.


. . .and the actions on the part of Olddowntownguy only served to put roadblocks in the way of St. Anthony's progress. If they were historic structures, I could see opposing, but it appeared to me that he was simply trying to stand up against a corporate power. . .

You failed to mention that I was successful in gaining a denial of two of the three demolition permits applied for by the hospital. Saint Anthony will likely appeal to The Board of Adjustment and I will oppose them there as well.

There is much more to be discussed regarding the planned destructiion of an important part of Midtown's Cottage District residential neighborhood by Saint Anthony Hospital. I will post my arguments here over the next couple of days.

Were it not for a handfull of individuals being willing to take on corporate power, government power and powerful individuals, The Gold Dome Bank Building would be in a land fill, the Walnut Avenue Bridge would not be standing today and a parking lot would be in the place of the Oklahoma City Art Museum whose core is the shell of the historic Centre Theater.

DTG, I support you in this. If there is opposition to these kinds of projects, at the very least, the powers-that-be will at least have to improve their plans for the use of the land to be vastly better than the preservationists use.

If DTG is successful in rehabilitating the area, great.

If he forces teh Hospital, etc. to improve their plans for the use of the land (prettier buildings, better landscaping, etc.) then all the better for the city.

There's nothing better than to have 2 or more groups competing with one another to use land in a better way than the other.

I saw that article and thought, "Wow, I'm glad some citizens in OKC are standing up to preserve our history. Good for him!"

And I had no idea it was our own ODTG.


I don't know enough about the buildings to take a side other than to say I am a strong advocate for preserving any bit of history in OKC. I wish there were more citizens out there challenging some of these decisions.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but you guys act like Lincoln must have slept there. Just what is the historical significance of these shacks?

Were it not for a handfull of individuals being willing to take on corporate power, government power and powerful individuals, The Gold Dome Bank Building would be in a land fill, the Walnut Avenue Bridge would not be standing today and a parking lot would be in the place of the Oklahoma City Art Museum whose core is the shell of the historic Centre Theater.

That alone makes me proud of you, ODG.

-------------

Me too.

:congrats: . :congrats: . :congrats:

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but you guys act like Lincoln must have slept there. Just what is the historical significance of these shacks?

I respect OldDowntownguy's opinions and agree that some historic structures need to be preserved, but this was exactly the point I was trying to make. I've seen the structures mentioned here, and they're no prize to our city, and IMO, aren't worth saving. No matter how old some buildings are, they're not always worth saving.

But to each his own, and ODTG, I completely respect you and your freedom to protest the demolition of these structures! As Midtowner said, the least it will do is encourage St. Anthony to develop a better plan.

Anyways, I completely see it from your side and thank you for clarifying your reasoning.

In regards to the Gold Dome...If I remember correctly some did protest, but wasn't it saved by someone finally stepping up and buying that ugly thing not because of the protests

Easy, sometimes protests stall demolition long enough that other options present themselves.

Sure wish someone would have laid in front of the Belle Isle powerplant bulldozers. If that property would have been left in tact, I have no doubt at this point in time there would be huge interest from developers, just like there once was in the early 80's.

Once something of history and/or character is gone, it's gone forever. It's very important to think things through very carefully before tearing down anything.

ODTG, I am a property owner in this area. I'm familiar with what is going on, but have been so busy, I haven't had time to drive by the properties, etc. If you can PM me the addresses and your thoughts as well as what you think the PRO's and CON's are, I'd be happy to possibly get involved.

In the way of background, here are descriptions of the properties Saint Anthony Hospital has recently purchased and applied to demolish. I have also included information on all of the other properties on the block.

The area in question is the North side of the 700 Block of NW 7th Street which extends East from Shartel. Looking from West to East the properties are as follows:

1. 731 NW 8th Street. A single story stucco residence. This interestingly designed residential property was renovated by a previous owner and recently purchased for $130,000.00 by the present owners in 2005. Eligible for the National Register according to the SHPO.
2. 719 NW 8th Street. Three two story stucco multi-family buildings. The architecture is both remarkable and unique in Oklahoma City. A prime candidate for executive class residential housing. The structures are sound, but they will need to be completely rehabilitated.
3. 717 NW 8th Street. A two story single family residence. This frame home is in very poor condition and although interesting, is not terrible unique. Rehabilitating it would be costly.
4. 709 NW 8th Street. A two story frame multi-family building. This frame building could be rehabilitated and converted to a large townhouse style duplex or a four-plex rental property. But, considering its location may not be the best and highest use of the property.
5. A 50’ X 140’ parking lot serving the church building to the east.
6. A Two story red brick church building in use and in very good condition.

SSM Health Care of Oklahoma Inc., aka Saint Anthony Hospital has purchased properties 2, 3 and 4 and has made application with the City of Oklahoma City to demolish all three of them. Their privately developed campus master plan incorporates this residential property at its new SW corner. Presently, SSM owns property that abuts these houses at the rear north of the alley running east to west. SSM plans to demolish all of the existing residential buildings and install a landscaped green belt and perhaps a masonry and iron fence. In the future they plan to construct some surface parking. As other properties on the block may come on to the market, their plans are to purchase and demolishing the unique stucco house at the corner and a recently restored two story brick residence at the SE corner of 9th and Shartel. SSM management has indicated that they might be willing to incorporate the brick church building into their expansion scheme should they acquire it at a future date.

The Saint Anthony master plan has been developed totally as an internal process and no input from the surrounding Midtown Cottage District residential neighborhood or The Oklahoma City Planning Department is reflected in its design. The City of Oklahoma City has not adopted or approved of their campus master plan.

The SSM demolition permits required approval from the OKC Urban Design Commission. At the August The permit to demolish property #3 was granted, however the applications for properties #2 and #4 were denied.

To be continued . . . .

The Saint Anthony master plan has been developed totally as an internal process and no input from the surrounding Midtown Cottage District residential neighborhood or The Oklahoma City Planning Department is reflected in its design. The City of Oklahoma City has not adopted or approved of their campus master plan.

And even though I've written multiple requests to the hospital, they have not as of yet shared details of that plan.

If someone else knows where it is posted, I'd sure like to see it.

And even though I've written multiple requests to the hospital, they have not as of yet shared details of that plan.

If someone else knows where it is posted, I'd sure like to see it.

As far as I know there is no public information at this point Malibu as the hospital is now using ADG to work on yet a third master plan. The first was done by RTKL (I think), and the foot print did not include the residential property now proposed for demolition, but that was not adopted by the hospital. Number two was undertaken by Studio Architecture and I'm not sure if that was completed or not.

A plan for the proposed new Medical Corridor which covers everything between NW 8th and 13th from Classen to I-235 is being done by Chan Krieger & Associates. That should be completed by late September. It does not include specifics for the Saint Anthony campus, but will include proposed guidelines for the whole Medical Corridor. Chan Krieger of Cambridge Mass. is a major urban planner as a visit to their website clearly shows. www.chankrieger.com They have an impressive list of awards and completed projects.

The lack of a plan for the Saint Anthony Hospital campus and the more important and comprehensive plan the looks at the whole of Midtown including the residential Cottage District and how Saint Anthony fits in is the underlying reason why I am standing in oposition to the demolition of the property on 8th Street. The Urban Design District Ordinance which requires hearings before the Urban Design Commission for all demolition permits in the designated UDC areas is the means available to me to oppose their proposed actions. Having gained a victory there, I will now oppose their appeal before the Board of Adjustment.

What I hope to achieve is to bring all of the parties to the table and get the requsite planning process going before any further damage is done to the Midtown Cottage District residential neighborhood by thoughtles unplanned expansion of the Saint Anthony Campus.

I want only success for Saint Anthony, but I stongly believe that they can only be successful as part of Midtown, a large part for sure, but only a part, not an isolated institution making inwardly focused decisions that don't take the whole urban mixed use neighborhood into full consideration.

If the hospital is *still* not ready to make their plan public -- especially considering they received ample public incentives and are already under major construction on multiple projects -- then they can't expect support as they look to pull down buildings or do anything else in that area.

When I've written to them, their contact person has been odd and defensive. Kim Searls had included a vague rendering of their plan about two years ago in the Skyline Snapshot, and when I wrote them about wanting a big/better version, they absolutely refused and said 'that rendering never should have been released -- it's way premature'. Subsequent requests have been greated in the same manner.


The Midtown area is one of the very few in OKC that has some history and character still in tact. If Saints or anyone else thinks citizens should just bow down and let them do whatever they want in that area, they *should* be met with resistance at every turn.


I suspect several people in OKC made them lots of promises to keep them in that location and I was thrilled when it all worked out. But this smacks of the good ol' boy network at work again in OKC, where a few smug people seem to think they know what's best for everyone and don't want to be bothered explaining themselves.

. . . I've seen the structures mentioned here, and they're no prize to our city, and IMO, aren't worth saving. . . . I completely see it from your side and thank you for clarifying your reasoning.

As the material I have posted so far points out Patrick, two of the buildings would be very difficult projects and the end result might not live up to the potential presented by their fabulous building sites. One of the properties however, the three, two story stucco buildings are another matter entirely. But in the space that would be cleared by removing one or both of the marginal structures, a new infill residential project should fill the gap rather than (aaarrrrggggg) surface parking.

If you would take a closer look at those three salmon colored stucco buildings through slightly squinted eyes that would blurr twenty years of deferred maintainence, and use all of your creative vision, you will see what I see; a nicely trimmed lawn and well executed landscaping, fresh paint and new windows, the resident physician, hospital executive or well paid medical services specialist walking their bicycle down the steps for a Sunday morning ride with some neighborhood friends down to the Oklahoma River trails with plans to stop by a little later at one of the half dozen or so good resturants in and around Plaza Court for a late breakfast . . . . well, by now you have the picture.

My objection to demolition is two fold; first, no comprehensive plan and second, changing the use from taxpaying high end residential to tax exempt surface parking that totally underutilizes the building sites. Even if you, or others, don't think any of the buildings are worth saving, not taking full advantage of those building sites sitting across the street from a public park with excellent views of our nice little downtown skyline is pretty foolish to say the least.

6. a two story red brick church building in use and in very good condition.

are you describing the church building north of saint anthony's at roughly tenth and francis? wow... if that's the case i'm surprised that would be taken out.

are you describing the church building north of saint anthony's at roughly tenth and francis? wow... if that's the case i'm surprised that would be taken out.

No mmm, it is on the NW corner of 8th and Lee, which is just South of the hospital. As I noted above, the hospital has indicated that they might find a use for the building should they purchase it in the future. They have expressed no plans in that reagard at this time.

thanks odg,
i really don't have that great of a knowledge of that area and don't really know in which direction saints plans on expanding... guess a wiser person would've assumed that the church in question was near the location of all the other buildings you posted... but apparently, i wasn't that guy!

in any event, keep fighting the good fight. -M

In regards to the Gold Dome...If I remember correctly some did protest, but wasn't it saved by someone finally stepping up and buying that ugly thing not because of the protests

Actually it was a well planned multi-faceted effort. There were about two hundred or so citizens that took part in the weekly public protests at the corner of NW 23rd and Classen for well over a year. Those demonstrations attracted from 12 to 50 people each week. There were also numerous others working in other ways including Sonic CEO Cliff Hudson, people meeting with BankOne, a web site was developed, real estate people were actively looking for a new owner, contacts were developed with other interested parties around the nation, the National Trust for Historic Preservation listed the building on it's annual "Most Endangered List" and a piece was shown on the Discovery Channel.

There are those like yourself that describe the building as "ugly", and you are entitled to your opinion, but you can't disagree with describing it as a LANDMARK. It is one most recognizable buildings in the USA. Nearly anyone that has ever seen the building knows where it is located.



Easy, sometimes protests stall demolition long enough that other options present themselves.

Sure wish someone would have laid in front of the Belle Isle power plant bulldozers. If that property would have been left in tact, I have no doubt at this point in time there would be huge interest from developers, just like there once was in the early 80's.

Once something of history and/or character is gone, it's gone forever. It's very important to think things through very carefully before tearing down anything.

You are right on target Malibu. In the case of both the Centre Theater and the Gold Dome, citizens delayed demolition of the building by various means long enough for the publicity and public interest to attract a new user.

Unfortunately, the YMCA building that survived the Murrah bombing virtually in perfect structural condition was demolished by Auto Dealership Owner Mark Moore in spite of the plans developed by the OKC architectural community and presented to him that demonstrated the viability of the building converted into residential rental units. Obviously, the preservations were correct in that instance as well. Hindsight easily reveals that there is no doubt that the building would have been successful today had Mr. Moore not been so short sighted and stubborn. In its place is everyone's favorite use for high dollar urban real estate, surface parking.

That particular building was one of just a hand full of International Style commercial buildings remaining in the US. Your comment Malibu is well worth repeating:

"Once something of history and/or character is gone, it's gone forever. It's very important to think things through very carefully before tearing down anything."

I know if I was someone in charge with Saint Anthony I would be debating abandoning the whole midtown idea. I would be looking into relocating.

It is not worth fighting every complainer just because they cannot deal with change. Building a new hospital on I-44 between Newcastle and Oklahoma City would be an easier journey and the place could be open for patients in two years.

I would recommend that the company just write the city a check for the city's losses and start searching for a new plot of land that could be customized to the hospitals needs. Mercy did it and succeeded so they can too. This land fight will probably dwell on for years just because some nut job wants to save Shantytown. Just simply because it use to be something special.

If your going to save a building it needs an occupant and not every new home buyer and business wants a money pit. If someone does not want to restore it and use it right away, I say bulldoze it. We cannot keep everything that is why we have funerals, garage sales, spring cleaning, and garbage cans.

Are you guys going to have this same love affair for Crossroads Mall when it closes?

because some nut job wants to save Shantytown.

I think that's an abjectly unfair assessment of ODT in this case. He has defended his position most effectively, and sounds as though he comes from a perspective of experience in the rehabilitation of existing structures and a fundamental interest in using such structures and land wisely, not merely for the highest-profile public project.

I am not sufficiently qualified to make any broad assessment pro or con, but I am very impressed with ODT's ability to affirmatively support his position. I'm not necessarily one to advocate the perpetuation of older/dilapidated areas, but I will also state that he makes a *very* good case -- a far cry from the characterization of "nut job" that is offered above.

-SoonerDave

I know if I was someone in charge with Saint Anthony I would be debating abandoning the whole midtown idea. I would be looking into relocating.

It is not worth fighting every complainer just because they cannot deal with change. Building a new hospital on I-44 between Newcastle and Oklahoma City would be an easier journey and the place could be open for patients in two years.

I would recommend that the company just write the city a check for the city's losses and start searching for a new plot of land that could be customized to the hospitals needs. Mercy did it and succeeded so they can too. This land fight will probably dwell on for years just because some nut job wants to save Shantytown. Just simply because it use to be something special.

If your going to save a building it needs an occupant and not every new home buyer and business wants a money pit. If someone does not want to restore it and use it right away, I say bulldoze it. We cannot keep everything that is why we have funerals, garage sales, spring cleaning, and garbage cans.

Do you realize that St. Anthony went through a much publicized process of considering moving to the suburbs just a couple years ago and decided to stay in their present location? They have already spent millions to build a new wing and surgery center that will open just days from now. St. Anthony has a committment to the inner city and the people that live there. I seriously doubt this one thing warrants packing up and moving. And why on earth would we need a new hospital in Newcastle?

Also your last statement holds no water because as ODTG pointed out, one of the homes has already been remodeled and just sold for $130,000.

I think that's an abjectly unfair assessment of ODT in this case. He has defended his position most effectively, and sounds as though he comes from a perspective of experience in the rehabilitation of existing structures and a fundamental interest in using such structures and land wisely, not merely for the highest-profile public project.

I am not sufficiently qualified to make any broad assessment pro or con, but I am very impressed with ODT's ability to affirmatively support his position. I'm not necessarily one to advocate the perpetuation of older/dilapidated areas, but I will also state that he makes a *very* good case -- a far cry from the characterization of "nut job" that is offered above.

-SoonerDave

Thank you. You said it well. ODTG has experience and understanding with these things. For the poster to characterize him as a "nut job" was totally out of line. SoonerDave, Thanks for writing so well exactly what I was thinking.

------------------

Are you guys going to have this same love affair for Crossroads Mall when it closes?

Like I said, some things simply aren't worth saving.

I do think ODG has made an excellent case supporting his views though. And if it weren't for folks like him, we'd have a Walgreens on every corner.

Someone commented that the "ugly" Gold Dome was saved. At least it's more unique than another WalGreens. Now, if we can just get them to either paint it gold, or strip the existing gold off, and leave it silver.

Since some of you are so zealous about saving the trashy areas why not start a coalition to save this place.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/7383-crooked-oak-schools-may-have-call-orkin-man.html#post65409

Do you realize that St. Anthony went through a much publicized process of considering moving to the suburbs just a couple years ago and decided to stay in their present location? They have already spent millions to build a new wing and surgery center that will open just days from now. St. Anthony has a committment to the inner city and the people that live there. I seriously doubt this one thing warrants packing up and moving. And why on earth would we need a new hospital in Newcastle?

Also your last statement holds no water because as ODTG pointed out, one of the homes has already been remodeled and just sold for $130,000.

That's not quite accurate.

As I recall, St. Anthony's threatened the move, then the city came with the money to build that new wing. It was extortion on St. Anthony's part more than anything else.

That's not quite accurate.

As I recall, St. Anthony's threatened the move, then the city came with the money to build that new wing. It was extortion on St. Anthony's part more than anything else.
What crime did St. Anthony's threaten Oklahoma City with, Patrick! :omg: You know what extortion means. And, without serious infrastructure and other improvements in the area, why the hell would they have wanted to stay?

What crime did St. Anthony's threaten Oklahoma City with, Patrick! :omg: You know what extortion means. And, without serious infrastructure and other improvements in the area, why the hell would they have wanted to stay?

I guess you're referencing this to someone else and not me, because I have never criticized public support of St. Anthony.

Anyways, I drove by those cottages today that ODTG was referencing. All I have to say is, oh my God. Those dumps aren't worth saving. I'l have to take a picture. There's nothing at all special about any of those homes. Bring the bulldozers in as far as I'm concerned.

I guess you're referencing this to someone else and not me, because I have never criticized public support of St. Anthony.Yes, Patrick, sorry .. my response was to Midtowner's quote but I stuck your name in my reply to his post ... my mistake. My reply to the "extortion" item was strictly intended for him. Guess I have you on my mind, though, Patrick! How about a tour of the Skirvin?! :tweeted:

Anyways, I drove by those cottages today that ODTG was referencing. All I have to say is, oh my God. Those dumps aren't worth saving. I'l have to take a picture. There's nothing at all special about any of those homes. Bring the bulldozers in as far as I'm concerned.
I'll be in that area Saturday, around noon. I'll try to take a few pictures and upload them to the forum.

The houses are on the south side of the main hospital building. You'll see an old church over there that is now Urban Impact or something like that, and a group of other boarded up structures, 2 of which are stucco. The house on the far west of the strip is still inhabited, but is fenced in. It's no prize either, but it's better than the rest.

IMO, they're nothing any more special than homes around the Harding area. They look about the same.

I think a nice sparkling new 10-15 story physicians building would look better. Heck, even a nicely landscaped surface lot would look better. Hey, did I say that?

I'm all for preservation, especially of unique looking structures. For example, I was in favor of preservation of the Gold Dome, old YMCA Building, Skirvin Hotel, etc. But, personally, I feel these cottages are simply adding to the "trash" of the area. Some may ask, what about the Cline Hotel or Marion Hotel? Well, it's different comparing significant structures like those to residences.

I don't know.......if the homes can be preserved, I'm all for it. But, I know how things work around this city, and what will probably happen, is they'll continue to deteriorate for the next 20 years, until they're condemned, and have to be torn down for safety reasosn. Just stating the obvious.

How about a tour of the Skirvin?! :tweeted:

Sorry, I haven't put that together yet. My mind has been at the hospital lately.....OU Med Center. I start my surgery rotation next week and will be working from 4AM to 8PM every day, with call every 5th or 6th night. It will be a rough 8 weeks. I'll try to throw something together after that.

That's not quite accurate.

As I recall, St. Anthony's threatened the move, then the city came with the money to build that new wing. It was extortion on St. Anthony's part more than anything else.

The city did not pay for the expansion. That was never the case. They did however agree to streetscape improvements in the area. That is why we got the roundabout and new landscaping there by the Plaza Court Building.

The city did not pay for the expansion. That was never the case. They did however agree to streetscape improvements in the area. That is why we got the roundabout and new landscaping there by the Plaza Court Building.

In the interest of accuracy, the streetscape on Walker and NW 10th Street that includes the roundabout was paid for with year 2000 bond money, aka our money. That project was in the works long before the sham year 2003 threat by Saint Anthony that yanked the City's chain. That was phase one. Phase two is now under way and will complete Walker between NW 13th and Main Street, 10th Street from the roundabout to Shartel or Classen, 11th Street from Walker to Dewey and includes another roundabout at either 10th and Shartel or Classen Drive and Shartel (I can't recall which intersection for sure). Construction started a couple of weeks ago with the section of Walker adjacent to Henderson's Legacy project.

The houses are on the south side of the main hospital building. You'll see an old church over there that is now Urban Impact or something like that, and a group of other boarded up structures, 2 of which are stucco. The house on the far west of the strip is still inhabited, but is fenced in. It's no prize either, but it's better than the rest.

IMO, they're nothing any more special than homes around the Harding area. They look about the same. . . . . I'm all for preservation, especially of unique looking structures. . . . I was in favor of preservation of the Gold Dome, old YMCA Building, Skirvin Hotel, etc. . . . Some may ask, what about the Cline Hotel or Marion Hotel? Well, it's different comparing significant structures like those to residences. . . . . .

Thanks for starting this thread Patrick, but again, YOUR OPINION in some instances simply doesn't hold up in the harsh light of day.


The house on the far west of the strip is still inhabited, but is fenced in. It's no prize either, but it's better than the rest.

Perhaps "no prize" in your view, but the present owners recently paid $130,000.00 for it. Below is the text from a letter sent to the OKC Urban Design Commission by Jim Gabbert from the Oklahoma State Historic Preservation Office.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

September 2, 2006

Urban Design Commission
c/o John C. Calhoun
420 West Main, 9th Floor
Oklahoma City, OK 73102


Dear Mr. Calhoun:

It is the opinion of the State Historic Preservation Office (SHPO) that the house located at 731 N. W. 8th Street in Oklahoma City is individually eligible for inclusion in the National Register of Historic Places under Criterion C, as an excellent and rare example of a Prairie style house. While many houses in Oklahoma City were influenced by the Prairie style, very few are true examples. The house, built in 1909, is easily one of the best examples in the city.

The three part apartment complex at 719-721 N. W. 8th was opened in 1929 as the Terrace Court Apartments. The complex includes two buildings completed in 1929 and a third that is a major remodel of a c.1909 two story house. The design of the complex, though not unique, adds substantially to the urban fabric of the street. It is not, however, eligible for inclusion in the National Register in the opinion of the SHPO. The two frame buildings, 709 and 717 N. W. 8th, while old, lack both sufficient integrity or historic association necessary for inclusion in the National Register. The last property on the block, the old German Methodist Church is a good example of a corner tower, Late Gothic Revival style church. It predates the houses on the block, having been built around 1906-1908. It warrants further study for its eligibility for the National Register.

The SHPO is of the opinion that one of the properties on the north side of the 700 block of N. W. 8th Street is eligible for inclusion in the National Register of Historic Places - 731 N. W. 9th. It is also our opinion that the old German Methodist Church, now Skyline Urban Ministry, warrants further study for inclusion in the National Register.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at (405) 522-4478 (or e-mail at jgabbert@okhistory.org).

Sincerely,



Jim Gabbert
Architectural Historian

cc: Midtown Redevelopment Corporation, PO Box 3082, Oklahoma City, OK 73101


- - - - - - - - - -

Just as in your case Patrick this is an opinion. But considering Mr. Gabbert's experience and position, I would afford it more weight than yours.

Thanks again for starting this thread Patrick and I appreciate your comments in support of what I am trying to acomplish by my actions. I have no quarl with you or others that have posted on this thread in disagreement with me. I didn't expect to be called a "nut bag" but I figure anyone that is childish enough to engage in silly name calling should be ignored for the most part. I realy enjoy the exchange of ideas, opinions and points of view expressed here, but I enjoy it more when there is a solid basis and well reasoned argument for those opinions and points of view.

I was able to take some pics today of the homes that were going to be demolished. The question is......are these houses of historical significance, or should they just be destroyed?

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/St_Anthony_Construction_006.jpg

(Above) This is the back of one of the buildings.

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/St_Anthony_Construction_005.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/St_Anthony_Construction_003.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/St_Anthony_Construction_002.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/St_Anthony_Construction_Part_2_004.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/St_Anthony_Construction_Part_2_003.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/St_Anthony_Construction_Part_2_002.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/St_Anthony_Construction_Part_2_001.jpg

The above two pictures are of the church that Patrick had mentioned in his earlier post.

Thanks for starting this thread Patrick, but again, YOUR OPINION in some instances simply doesn't hold up in the harsh light of day.

It's YOUR OPINION that those houses are worth saving as well. I'll let others on this site judge based on the pictures that have been posted.




Perhaps "no prize" in your view, but the present owners recently paid $130,000.00 for it. Below is the text from a letter sent to the OKC Urban Design Commission by Jim Gabbert from the Oklahoma State Historic Preservation Office.

Those owners are pretty stupid, IMO. Market value for that home is only $65,971.



Thanks again for starting this thread Patrick and I appreciate your comments in support of what I am trying to acomplish by my actions. I have no quarl with you or others that have posted on this thread in disagreement with me. I didn't expect to be called a "nut bag" but I figure anyone that is childish enough to engage in silly name calling should be ignored for the most part. I realy enjoy the exchange of ideas, opinions and points of view expressed here, but I enjoy it more when there is a solid basis and well reasoned argument for those opinions and points of view.

I agree. This is a great thread, and I think you've done an excellent job supporting your side. For that, I give you a great deal of credit, even if we disagree.

Here's a picture of the home in question:

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2732/R012404230001yA.jpg

Patrick, SSM Healthcare paid $460,000.00 for the three properties in question. How would you characterize their action?

A. Really smart.
B. Not terribly bright.
C. Hey, they've got plenty of money and they can damn well spend it as they please.

This discussion has gone very far afield. I would like to try and bring the focus back to the issues that I believe have an impact on the future of Midtown and the Cottage District residential neighborhood. Those being:

A. The City of Oklahoma City has a zoining ordinance in place that prohibits the action proposed by Saint Anthony Hospital without their first establishing that the buildings in question are not economically viable. If you refer to my earlier post #12 in this thread, you will see that my opinion and experience indicates that that only one of the three meets that criteria.

B. My main objection is the change in land use from "residential" to "surface parking"

C. In 2003, Saint Anthony Hospital, The City of Oklahoma City and other stakeholders entered into an agreement described in a "Memorandum of Understanding" signed by all of the parties. This document outlines a planning process which has yet to be fulfilled. Though it is a lengthy piece and most may not take the time to read it fully, in support of my position on these points, I offer the following text from the document I presented to The Urban Design Commission:

SSM Healthcare/Saint Anthony Hospital has purchased three residential properties on the North side of NW 8th Street in the 800 block of the MidTown residential community. The properties are located directly across the street from Red Andrews Park and their elevation affords excellent views of the OKC skyline.

SSM plans to demolish the residential structures on these three sites, purchase other properties in the immediate area, including an important church building, a recently restored brick home at NW 9th and Shartel and a home at 831 NW 8th Street which according to the opinion of Jim Gabbert of the Oklahoma State Historic Preservation Office is individually eligible for inclusion on the National Register of Historic Places and demolish some or all of them as well. Though no design has been completed or approved by The City of Oklahoma City’s Planning Commission, SSM Healthcare’s tentative plans are to enclose this portion of their campus with a masonry and iron fence, add some landscaping and construct an undetermined amount surface parking.

The arguments in opposition to their present course of action are numerous and compelling while the points in favor are few and weak by comparison. First, the hospital administration’s verbally stated argument in support of their demolition decision and undefined plan for a fence, landscaping and parking.

 The hospital requires additional land for future development such as an office or administrative building that they may construct in the future and will also require more parking.

 The presence of transients, vagrants and other undesirables wandering through the area underlies a perception by many of the hospital’s patients, insurance providers and others, that the area surrounding the hospital is unsafe.

 The structures proposed for demolition are unsafe and represent a health hazard.

 It’s their property and they should be able to do as they see fit.

Recognizing the need to partner more closely to achieve the mutually beneficial goals of further revitalization in MidTown and the success of Saint Anthony’s Hospital operations, The City of Oklahoma City and Saint Anthony Hospital, along with other stakeholders including Oklahoma County, The OKC Urban Renewal Authority, Downtown OKC Inc. and The Greater OKC Chamber of Commerce entered into an agreement in July of 2003. The agreement is represented by a “Memorandum of Understanding” signed by all of the stakeholders.

Excerpted from paragraph 1 of the Memorandum, titled “Planning”, in Section B titled “Responsibilities of Parties”, is the following language:

“The Parties agree. . . to collaborate on a related MidTown Master Plan, that will integrate the hospital’s campus plan with plans for the redevelopment of the surrounding area.”

Of special importance are the words “collaborate” and “integrate”, as they form the backbone of the urban planning processes necessary to accomplish the major revitalization of MidTown envisioned by the Parties.

Over the past few years, the Hospital has engaged three different A&E firms to draft their medical campus master plans. Two master plans have been completed and presumably discarded and a third is under way. To date, none of the plans have been presented to the other MidTown stakeholders for review or comment. The more contextual, multi-lateral, planning process agreed to by all of the Parties in the Memorandum of Understanding has neither taken place or is under consideration.

In further opposition to approval of the demolition permit applications, there is a considerable amount of relevant information having a direct bearing on the question of whether or not Saint Anthony Hospital is well served or should be permitted to incorporate this prime residential real estate into its yet undefined or approved medical campus.

 The City of Oklahoma City enacted The Urban Design Ordinance and put in place an associated design review commission specifically to consider matters that involve the proposed actions of property owners and the proposed end use of their property. The Purpose and Intent of the ordinance is “to promote the health, safety, economic, cultural and general welfare of the public by encouraging the revitalization and enhancement of the urban environment.”

 The Urban Design Ordinance specifically addresses the importance of preservation of the existing neighborhood fabric, economic viability and new real estate development and construction being considered in context.

 Ann Simank, the Oklahoma City Councilwoman for Ward 6, the location of the subject property has stated her opposition to SSM’s immediate plans for these sites and personally requested of Mr. Joe Hodges, the hospital’s President, that they relent while a more comprehensive planning document can be completed as SSM has agreed to in the Memorandum of Understanding.


 SSM Healthcare is participating in funding of the master planning for the Medical Corridor by Chan Krieger and Associates. The subject properties are located within the planning area and recent discussions with David Gamble, one the firm’s planners, indicate that the present course of action of SSM Healthcare would be contrary to the recommendations of their forthcoming Medical Corridor Master Plan.

 Though the development of surface parking is a relatively inexpensive solution to the long term parking needs of Saint Anthony Hospital, that solution may prove to be inadequate to handle further parking needs arising as development of this important urban medical complex continues. It may be necessary to construct parking garages to increase parking density as a means to increase parking capacity in the near future. As yet there is no comprehensive plan that forecasts the hospital’s future parking needs due to their planned expansion.

 Persons requiring public assistance and utilizing the social services in the immediate vicinity of Saint Anthony Hospital have always been a visual presence on the streets and sidewalks and will continue to be. Complex urban environments such as MidTown are typically home to a variety of individuals representing many socioeconomic groups, and there is no reason to assume that will not continue to be the case. The time tested solution is to increase the presence of middle class individuals to dilute the transient population and help eliminate the perception that the area is unsafe.

 Having the SW corner of the perimeter of the proposed Saint Anthony Medical Campus firmly anchored by executive class housing would provide far greater security than a fence and landscaping.

 Surface parking is the lowest form of commercial land use and would decrease the taxable value of the three properties. Their market value would become the land value plus a small additional valuation representing the meager improvements of a fence and paved parking. On the other hand, an upscale redevelopment of the three parcels in question could easily add $2,000,000.00 in advalorem valuation to the tax rolls. If a planned TIF is adopted, this increased valuation would go toward area infrastructure improvements that would in turn directly benefit the hospital. Additional improvements and redevelopment of the corner could easily add an additional $200,000.00 in tax paying property valuations.

 Easily overlooked is the potential real estate investment value of a complete revitalization of the two hundred or so residential properties and building sites in the MidTown Cottage District which will easily amount to $25 Million over the next few years. Saint Anthony Hospital is not alone in making a substantial financial investment in MidTown.

 Properties located adjacent to public park land are always some of the most valuable in any city and Oklahoma City is no exception. Adding the excellent views of the OKC skyline into the equation makes the residential building sites in the 800 block of NW 8th very desirable. Conversion of these unique building sites to surface parking removes the benefit of their potentially enormous benefit to the continued revitalization of the MidTown Cottage District.

The proposed demolition of the buildings at 709, 717 and 719 NW 8th and replacing them with a landscaped perimeter fence and a few surfacing parking spaces runs contrary to contemporary urban planning concepts. Some of the existing structures afford obvious opportunities for rehabilitation while infill new construction might be the best solution for one or both of the other sites. These proposed demolitions isolate the remaining structures on the block and make them vulnerable to the same fate.

The revitalization of Midtown and its Cottage District is well under way. Providing additional high quality housing in close proximity to the Saint Anthony campus serves the immediate and future interests of the Hospital, the residential component of the neighborhood, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma County’s tax base, and all of the area’s varied businesses; in fact, all of the parties concerned. Saint Anthony’s near term decision for these properties has been taken in isolation, without the substantial benefit to be derived from consulting with professional urban planners and other MidTown stakeholders.

This demolition permit application heightens the anxiety and uncertainty surrounding Saint Anthony’s as yet undeclared plans for other residential property it owns or may acquire in The Cottage District and is an irrevocable action that doesn’t serve the best interest of Saint Anthony Hospital or the rest of MidTown.

To those who have posted statements of support, I say thanks. To those who disagree with me, I say you are entitled to your opinions. I will post the date, place and time of the Oklahoma City Board of Adjustment hearing on this issue as soon as I have that information.

I say we've both voiced our opinions. Anything said further would be pointless, IMHO.

Personnally... I think every house is too bad of shape to save. The house above most likely has all kinds of structure and internal problems. It would probably cost too much to save it. If you ask me I think they should just break out one of these puppies and be done with it.

http://www.kjmachinerysales.com.au/images/dozer-D9sml.jpg



If the buildings are saved at the least the homeless and the junkies downtown will have a place to stay while these homes set vacant for a few more years.

Besides you always need at least one house in every neighborhood for the roaches, rats and mice to call home.

What crime did St. Anthony's threaten Oklahoma City with, Patrick! :omg: You know what extortion means. And, without serious infrastructure and other improvements in the area, why the hell would they have wanted to stay?

Yessir, I know what extortion is. Let me soften a bit by saying that as a citizen of OKC, and a taxpayer thereto, I feel like a victim of extortion, or maybe blackmail even.

St. Anthony's told OKC that either OKC would provide them with the funds to build their new surgical wing, or they would relocate to another part of the city. This put Oklahoma City in the uncomfortable position of having to choose between having to spend millions to keep St. Anthony's, or to have a huge empty hospital campus in the middle of midtown which would likely have effectively doomed any chances of the district's comeback.

I do fear that this is something that other big boys around town have seen, and they understand how OKC will react if the threat looks serious enough.

As to the subject of this thread, however, if St. Anthony's with their own money can acquire these properties through legitimate means and develop them for productive and modern uses and actually follow through, I think this will be a good thing.

Remember, the failure of the urban renewal of the 70's/80's was not the fact that the city tore down a lot of great old buildings. It's that it never followed through with its redevelopment promises. Hospitals are generally things which aren't hurting for money. I don't think we have anything to fear from St. Anthony's as far as them tearing down these structures, then not erecting anything in their place. I do applaud DTG because at the very least, he'll probably force the hospital to improve whatever development plans they had. Perhaps we'll end up with some truly remarkable buildings?

If we want to create a vibrant midtown, let's start by having buildings in the area which we can be proud of. While many of these buildings are old, there's not a lot that's remarkable about many of them, and they're in such disrepair, that I doubt they can ever really be what's best for the land they're sitting on. If DTG, and his supporters can convince the powers-that-be otherwise, however, more power to 'em though.