View Full Version : Casinos: Benefits to Surrounding Community?



HFK
08-17-2006, 05:47 PM
Hi,

I know that there has been considerable debate here about proposals to allow casino gambling in Bricktown. A recent conversation with a resident of Newcastle led me to believe that the surrounding community (in this case Newcastle) receives no direct income from a casino (in this case Newcastle Gaming Center). I was told that the fact that the casino was on indian land imbued it with immunity from some of the obligations that other businesses had, like property and sales tax. I found that hard to believe, but he was adamant. Is that true?

Precisely how does the state benefit from casinos? Does it collect licensing fees and taxes on casino proceeds and then return a portion of those proceeds back to the local community and/or county? Would a casino in Bricktown be subject to the same rules, or might exceptions be made due to it's location?

BTW, the same source mentioned that the group that operates Riverwind also operates Newcastle Gaming Center and, once the Riverwind Hotel is completed, and the operation is deemed a success, then a similar Casino will be built at the Newcastle Gaming Center location. I found that hard to believe, but he also predicted the construction of a new truck stop @ I44 and I62, across from the Newcastle Casino, and construction has already begun on it. I still have trouble conceiving of another Riverwind-size casino not 20 minutes from the original, but I thought I'd throw it out there as a rumor...

Thanks.

venture
08-17-2006, 10:37 PM
I doubt we will see anything to the size of Riverwind constructed at Newcastle. Riverwind currently isn't drawing the crowds yet it needs to to allow Newcastle to have a similar facility. I've spent the last few days at Riverwind just getting a feel for the place a bit more and these are my observations...

1) First the state does get a kick back, including the anti that is collected at table games (which is stupid).

2) The surrounding area will benefit from larger scale projects. If Riverwind takes off like it should...then the area of South Norman/Goldsby will get much busier. Just imagine if Riverwind becomes a draw like Winstar...hotel rooms in Norman will become a premium just like on game weekends. Large-scale Indian owned casinos have to be viewed as a catalyst to help spur additional development...versus being the development.

3)Riverwind is playing very tight right now...but the way the machine are being played explains it. The dollars are mostly empty and only get a few plays. The others are only getting like 1 credit or what not...no one max bets (even though it isn't that much on the one cents). The tables are okay...until you do well. I stood back and watched several guys get a good run going and all of a sudden they will change dealers. Now when they do this, they also take a card out of the deck - which immediately kills the runs. Something to watch out for.

Reason I bring this last point up is...the casinos thrive on the higher end players...putting through several hundred/grand a trip. Right now it is plagued by the old crowd from Goldsby who are really not that well off. Newcastle could not support a major facility like Riverwind since they would compete. The better plan would be to maximize Riverwind and grow that area should it need it.

BDP
08-18-2006, 09:15 AM
First the state does get a kick back, including the anti that is collected at table games (which is stupid).

I'm actually surprised the state gets anything. Kind of undermines the idea of sovereignty, imo.

I didn't realize though that the anti goes to the state. That's why that will never change and that's why Oklahoma gambling will always be second rate.

I don't care if there's gambling in bricktown or not. As long as it's Okie Indian rules, I'm not playing. However, there is no doubt in my mind that it would draw big and take the district to another level in terms of traffic. If volume is the goal, a casino is a viable solution.

But, I also don't see this happening. It's my impression that Remington is hooked up in the good ole boy network and will be protected by the legislature. They will fight any efforts by an Indian Nation to develop in Oklahoma City's core.

traxx
08-18-2006, 09:27 AM
Large-scale Indian owned casinos have to be viewed as a catalyst to help spur additional development...versus being the development.

Good point. Bricktown already has the development, so I don't see that this is really needed down there. I think if there's going to be a gambling district, it should be somewhere else. This would bring the wrong kind of element to Bricktown. I think casinos in Bricktown would be a mistake.

flatang
09-14-2006, 11:52 PM
For over a year now it has been asked that someone bring forth concrete evidence that Oklahoma does indeed state that by law it is manditory for these casinos to (A) Charge a fee (ante) to the players of these table games. As these casinos say the State does. (B) That the State of Oklahoma is to be given this revenue.

All attempts to produce this evidence have failed and rightly so, because it is a scam at the expense of the State and all who play there. Think of how difficult it would be to simply try an monitor just one blackjack table and the number of hands played in one days worth of gambling. I have yet to witness any State auditors standing around the tables keeping track. So for this theory to actually be true that would mean the State is banking that the casinos would be honest enough to count this unmonitored revenue each day, week, month and then hand it over to Oklahoma. I would like to point out again unmonitored and all cash.

Swake2
09-15-2006, 07:22 AM
In the Tulsa area the Million Dollar Elm Casinos (owned by the Osage Nation) pay the ante for large gamblers and pay it for everyone on certain weeknights. I think the Cherokee Resort in Catoosa may do this as well, I don't know.

The Cherokee Nation is also expanding the state's nicest, if not largest casino. They are adding a second hotel tower, it will be 14 floors with 200 hotel rooms and will add 20,000 square feet of new convention space. Total cost of the addition is in the $60 to $80 million range.

The Creek Nation has finally broken ground on the $120 million first phase of it's new Tulsa casino-resort at 82nd and Riverside. When done the complex will cost between $400 and $500 million with shopping, a riverwalk, casino and hotels and will be on both side of the Arkansas river.

flatang
09-15-2006, 07:59 AM
Ladies and Gentleman may I proudly present Atlantic City

Lauri101
09-15-2006, 08:55 PM
For over a year now it has been asked that someone bring forth concrete evidence that Oklahoma does indeed state that by law it is manditory for these casinos to (A) Charge a fee (ante) to the players of these table games. As these casinos say the State does. (B) That the State of Oklahoma is to be given this revenue.

All attempts to produce this evidence have failed and rightly so, because it is a scam at the expense of the State and all who play there. Think of how difficult it would be to simply try an monitor just one blackjack table and the number of hands played in one days worth of gambling. I have yet to witness any State auditors standing around the tables keeping track. So for this theory to actually be true that would mean the State is banking that the casinos would be honest enough to count this unmonitored revenue each day, week, month and then hand it over to Oklahoma. I would like to point out again unmonitored and all cash.


Flatang, your post made me curious, so I thought I'd google a bit.

Here's what I found:
Oklahoma Tribal-State Gaming Compact (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:KsmkBeIwXdEJ:www.ok.gov/OGC/documents/Procedures%2520Manual1.pdf+Blackjack+Oklahoma+comp act&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5)

For those of you who are attorneys, almost-attorneys, or simply, like me, play one at work - this is a very long but very edifying explanation of the screwed-up laws for Indian Casino gambling.

Bottom line - the extra money you play at a table is called a "rake", not an ante. One of the blackjack dealers at Riverwind told me this also, and the Gaming Compact discusses it, BUT only in the context of a poker game. There are NO provisions for a rake/ante at blackjack!

The way the money is divided and paid to the state and to the tribes is convoluted. The only thing I see keeping it honest is the fear of audit by the State Compliance Agency (SCA)or by the IRS.

I did read (well, skim) the whole Compact. It's a great way to spend an hour, plus a masterpiece of creative accounting!

mranderson
09-16-2006, 09:43 AM
The casinos, be they Indian or otherwise DO benefit the community. How?

They create jobs. It takes humans to build them, humans to staff them, and humans to buy the gasoline and other expenses to patronize them. Therefore, the government bodies get taxes and other fees as a result. Thousands of people statewide would not have those jobs, and we would lose some tourist dollars as well since some people travel around the country to visit casinos.

flatang
09-17-2006, 06:30 PM
To Lauri101
Did you happen to read in your perusal of the NIGC rules governing the conduct of Native American casinos or the compact made with the State. That in reality many of these casinos are left to oversee their own integrity. Which would probably explain why casinos such as the Winstar continue to tell patrons at their blackjack tables that the rake they charge is manditory by order of the State and that the money collected is used to educate Native American children. Would you not agree then that this sort of statement made by the Winstar is simply a lie. The fact is there are way to many loop holes in the rules, which also explains why there are some political leaders looking to address the ways in which the NIGC's rules are written. Because we are talking about a cash business basically left to police its own actions or at worst looked after by a under staffed and under funded agency. I don't think this industry is much concerned by audits or the IRS. Statements made by Native American casinos suggesting they are regulated more than non Indian casinos such as ones found in Vegas is a crock. I would like to thank you for helping to clarify the ruling, I believe we are in basic agreement in the fact the rules leave a lot to be desired.

The idea of creating jobs is all fine and dandy but if the industry is left to allow for unethical gaming practices. Then are'nt they in turn just stealing the money back?

aintaokie
09-17-2006, 06:53 PM
Yes casinos benifit the surrounding community and also those across state lines. Winstar is now a major economic boon to the Gainesville Texas area. Gainesville is 7 miles south of Thackerville. Marrietta and Thackerville cannot support the developement that is taking place. So Gainesville is taking up the slack. Two motels are currently being built and serveral more are planned, along with eating places. The economic impact from jobs, motel and sales taxes is very significant to both Love county, OK and Cooke county, TX even if the state doesn't get all the big tax bucks from the gambling.

flatang
09-17-2006, 07:21 PM
Good point aintaokie but I am certain that the Winstar operation is simply biding their time. In wait for how Texas considers which way they will go about legalizing gaming. Any development at that site has been to benefit their needs only. The talk of large scale developement has been that, only talk. The reason the establishment is an oversized circus tent is proof. Nomades use tents, once Texas becomes legal Winstar will more than likely abandoned Thackerville altogether.

Lauri101
09-18-2006, 02:24 AM
To Lauri101
Did you happen to read in your perusal of the NIGC rules governing the conduct of Native American casinos or the compact made with the State. That in reality many of these casinos are left to oversee their own integrity. Which would probably explain why casinos such as the Winstar continue to tell patrons at their blackjack tables that the rake they charge is manditory by order of the State and that the money collected is used to educate Native American children. Would you not agree then that this sort of statement made by the Winstar is simply a lie.

Yes, exactly my point! As much as I love playing blackjack, that's why I've decided to wait until my annual trip to Nevada to get my fix!


The fact is there are way to many loop holes in the rules, which also explains why there are some political leaders looking to address the ways in which the NIGC's rules are written. Because we are talking about a cash business basically left to police its own actions or at worst looked after by a under staffed and under funded agency. I don't think this industry is much concerned by audits or the IRS. Statements made by Native American casinos suggesting they are regulated more than non Indian casinos such as ones found in Vegas is a crock. I would like to thank you for helping to clarify the ruling, I believe we are in basic agreement in the fact the rules leave a lot to be desired.

The idea of creating jobs is all fine and dandy but if the industry is left to allow for unethical gaming practices. Then are'nt they in turn just stealing the money back?

As an IRS agent, I'm all too aware that "fear" does very little to force compliance. It's a gamble - we call it the audit lottery. When chances of scrutiny are low, people and businesses are willing to risk audit for increased profit. Call me cynical - but my view of financial honesty in any business is shaped by years of observation!