I sincerely hope that the school board does not let some civil liberties group walk all over them and make them take down the picture of Jesus. It has been up there for three decades, so we all know it has never been a problem before. I hope this community-based group raises the $150,000, so that they can fight these ridiculous lawsuits brought on by organizations who just want to cause problems.



Harrison board to vote
Aug. 15 on Jesus picture


By The Associated Press

CLARKSBURG -- The fate of a Jesus portrait hanging in a Harrison County high school will be decided on Aug. 15.

The Harrison County Board of Education voted 3-2 on Thursday to delay making a decision until then, Superintendent Carl Friebel said.

Two civil liberties groups sued the board in June in an attempt to remove the "Head of Christ'' picture from a hallway at Bridgeport High School. The lawsuit argues that the portrait endorses Christianity as the school's official religion.

Board members said they won't spend any public money on the case. The motion approved Thursday gives any outside community-based group that supports the portrait until Aug. 15 to raise $150,000 for a defense fund, Friebel said.

If the money isn't raised, Friebel said the board will reassess its position at that meeting.

"The board was very clear about that. They're not going to expend public money,'' the superintendent said.

A previous board vote to remove the picture failed on a tie vote.

The portrait has been hanging in the school for three decades.

Look, Keith, we all know that you are a Christian, and that's fine. But when are you going to realize that there are people out there who aren't? And that schools are subject to separation of church and state?

Just because it's been there for 30 years doesn't mean it *should* be.

haha.. This idiot school board is going to spend money defending their unconstitutional picture instead of buying textbooks and paying teachers salaries.

Way to go!

Soon lawmakers in our society will make it a federal felony offense to practice, speak of, or display any form of christianity in a public or private place.

Then you guys can call the cops and have Keith locked up for believing in christian principles.

Jay--

I have NO problem with people practicing a religion. However, why does Christianity have to be plastered all over everything? Are the Jews putting up Stars of David in public schools? Are Wiccans practicing their beliefs on sidewalks and handing out brochures? No.

Jay--

I have NO problem with people practicing a religion. However, why does Christianity have to be plastered all over everything? Are the Jews putting up Stars of David in public schools? Are Wiccans practicing their beliefs on sidewalks and handing out brochures? No.
Bandnerd, I apologize if I offended you in any way, however, it seems like everytime I post anything on this forum pertaining to Christianity, I get blasted by the same people because of my beliefs. I should be able to share (not cram) my beliefs on this forum without always getting making fun of. So far, it has never happened. Somebody always has to take a shot at my beliefs or opinions.

I posted a simple story of which I support, and I get blasted and made fun of, or get a dose of sarcasm for giving my opinion.
That's fine if it makes the people feel better about themselves, but I believe it is rather disrespectful and rude. As a moderator, I have tried very hard to stay out of these controversial subjects, because I am not suppose to get involved in them. So, I am done with this one.

Now, I will let you all discuss what you want to on this subject, and I'll move on to another thread.

I think we should replace Jesus with this picture:

http://www.randomfate.net/MT/media/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.jpg
In no way is this to be taken seriously. May the Flying Spaghettie Monster reign supreme over all pastafarians. RAmen.

Soon lawmakers in our society will make it a federal felony offense to practice, speak of, or display any form of christianity in a public or private place.

Then you guys can call the cops and have Keith locked up for believing in christian principles.

No, you see, that would also be unconstitional.

We're talking about the government endorsing a religion, not public or private practice of a particular religion. It's unfortunate that many cannot make such a simple distinction.

(and it is a VERY simple distinction)

And Keith, it's fine that you want to share your opinions. I'm not "blasting" you. However, I often get called out for my beliefs, as well. Can I not have mine?

Sometimes I think you fail to take into account things other than religion that can factor into situations like these, like the law and consititutional principles.

count me in as saying it needs to come down...a public school is no place for Any religious pictures

I would hope that people see the historical significance of Christianity in the founding of America. It's not some recent phenomena that Christians are out there plastering religious references all over public and government buildings across the nation. No sir. In many cases, Christian references have been there for scores of years. It would seem the founders' ideas of separation of church and state didn't include public government buildings.

The Lincoln Memorial, which includes Lincoln's inaugural address, includes six references to God. The Washington Monument has a Bible as its cornerstone. The Supreme Court has the Ten Commandments inscribed no less than four times on premesis including an etching in the oak doors to enter the courthouse. America's heritage is replete with religious references (particularly Christian ones).

If all that isn't ironic enough, surely someone can find the irony of the "anti-religious" religious folks that force their views on those who disagree with them; something which they seemingly find very distasteful.

All arguments aside I do know one thing,

When I have kids they will go to private christian schools. I am not going to send my kids into the wasteland that our public schools have become.

All arguments aside I do know one thing,

When I have kids they will go to private christian schools. I am not going to send my kids into the wasteland that our public schools have become.
Which is why Christians have less and less meaningful, positive impact into the lives of their neighbors. Imagine if Jesus only spent his time around the religious people, He would have never had the impact on the world.

That is the very reason my wife and I send our daughters to public school rather than a private, Christian school. First, it's my job to educate them on the Christian faith, not a school's. Second, how can they be an effective witness to kids their own age if they are separated from them?

I would hope that people see the historical significance of Christianity in the founding of America. It's not some recent phenomena that Christians are out there plastering religious references all over public and government buildings across the nation. No sir. In many cases, Christian references have been there for scores of years. It would seem the founders' ideas of separation of church and state didn't include public government buildings.

The Lincoln Memorial, which includes Lincoln's inaugural address, includes six references to God. The Washington Monument has a Bible as its cornerstone. The Supreme Court has the Ten Commandments inscribed no less than four times on premesis including an etching in the oak doors to enter the courthouse. America's heritage is replete with religious references (particularly Christian ones).

If all that isn't ironic enough, surely someone can find the irony of the "anti-religious" religious folks that force their views on those who disagree with them; something which they seemingly find very distasteful.

The Ten Commandments appear in the Bible, the Koran, and the Torah. Before you get your panties in a wad, realize that the 10 Commandments aren't only an endorsement of Christianity. They're probably more an endorsement of Judaism than anything else.

The primary founding fathers were deists.

The understandating of the government's ability to endrorse religion has likely changed since 1789. It's a very different world, and we have different societal norms.

OklaCity_75--Public schools are not a "wasteland." Sure, some have their issues but just because we don't pray there or have pictures of Jesus everywhere does not mean we are useless or detrimental to kids.

I went to a public school my entire life, pre-school through college, and I received a good education, I have a good job, I was given money to help with my education through public scholarships and I learned many lessons that were not related to my education. Pidgeonholing your children into one tiny sector of life will not help them.

Okay, end rant...sorry to hijack.

And Luke--did the Puritans not come here to escape religious persecution? Weren't they looking to worship in their own way, a way that was different? I thought this whole place was supposed to be about religious freedoms and differences, but it seems that people don't believe in that anymore.

the ten commandments appear in the bible, the koran, and the torah. before you get your panties in a wad, realize that the 10 commandments aren't only an endorsement of christianity. they're probably more an endorsement of judaism than anything else.
what's your point? a religious reference is less of an endorsement if it's not a christian reference? it's less of an endorsement if it has significance to multiple religions? if this makes it ok then given your logic, since jesus is recognized as a prophet in islam, a decent man with good principles by judaism, and messiah by christians then there should be no problem with displaying his likeness in a public space. i'm sure you don't believe that... perhaps you should clarify.


the primary founding fathers were deists.
again, what's the point? washington and jefferson are widely considered as christian deists. franklin, while largely an opponent of organized religion, proposed that each session of the constitutional convention begin with a prayer. franklin and jefferson proposed that our national seal be the scene of the parting of the red sea with the motto, 'rebellion to tyrants is obedience to god.' so they were deists. big deal.

the understandating [sic] of the government's ability to endrorse [sic] religion has likely changed since 1789. it's a very different world, and we have different societal norms.
are you arguing on the basis of constitutionality or are you arguing on the basis of changing societal norms?

did the puritans not come here to escape religious persecution? weren't they looking to worship in their own way, a way that was different? i thought this whole place was supposed to be about religious freedoms and differences, but it seems that people don't believe in that anymore. the puritans as an example of religious tolerance? crack open a history book and see just how tolerant they were. try looking up oliver cromwell. try looking up colonial government in new england. seems to me that we're a more tolerant society than we have ever been.

-M

mmm...I know the Puritans aren't a good example of religious tolerance...but overall, they came here to get away from their own persecution, did they not?

Also: It seems this country is all about religious tolerance as long as you have some sort of religion. If you don't, then uh oh! The hethens are threatening to take down our picture of Jesus in a public school, how dare they!

Frankly, public schools are funded by public money, taxpayers money. Some of those taxpayers do not want to see their money spent in schools where a religion is so obviously chosen for the masses. If you want your kids to receive a religious education, then put them in a private religious school. They can have all the religious paintings, hangings, wallpaper, etc. there.

And just because a public school doesn't teach Christian principles, do not sit here and tell everyone how horrible they are. Many public schools are great. Mine is one of them. I have taught in a school where many of the kids said they were religious, and went to church...but they were also members of gangs, grafittied the school, gave out threats to teachers and students (myself included) and were often arrested for possesion of drugs and weapons. There are extremes to every situation.

Ask a kid who's gone to a religious school...they'll tell you that the same issues (drugs, sex, rock 'n roll) are there just like they are in public schools.

if you knew that puritans weren't such a good example then why did you use them? it is true that economic opportunity and religious persecution were the chief factors that influenced puritan emigration from england. using puritans as an example of the united states' heritage of religious tolerance is disingenuous. -M

scribe has it right...if you are practicing Christians it is your job to teach them not the schools...and I knew of many private school students who were let's just say not acting very christian back then..so if you want to shell out several grand for a supposed better education so be it...I somehow came up w/ a masters degree coming through the "wasteland" of south OKC public schools

mmm...I apologize. I will refrain from posting to any threads before 8am.

Am I not allowed to make a mistake? Geez.

I don't see a problem leaving the picture for historical reasons. Maybe they can hang pictures of Mohammad and Buddha up as well.

so i looked into this a little more since i wanted to see the painting that was deemed oppresive. well, i found it here (http://www.wboy.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=9247&catid=45). i've gotta say i feel a little bamboozled on this one.

when i had originally read that this particular painting had been hanging in the school for thirty years, i had envisioned something significant to the school's history... something unique and perhaps created or donated by the students of the school. if that were the case, then it would've been an endorsement by the students and not by the school itself. fact is, that this is a relatively small print of a popular 40's era portrait of (a surprisingly caucasian) christ. nothing unique at all... it might as well be printed on a collector's plate from the franklin mint. after seeing the portrait for myself, i find it hard to believe that it has any significance to the school's history and cultural heritage.

now isn't that a more rational and mature way of disagreeing with the original poster? why do you peeps have to be condescending? why do you have to call people stupid? geez, indeed.

-M

Why do people have to make a big deal of Jesus hanging on a wall? Geesh!

Who called anyone stupid?

The Ten Commandments appear in the Bible, the Koran, and the Torah. Before you get your panties in a wad, realize that the 10 Commandments aren't only an endorsement of Christianity. They're probably more an endorsement of Judaism than anything else.

Even more of a reason to keep them up. There are many more Muslims, Jews and Christians in the United States than those who oppose the Ten Commandments.


The primary founding fathers were deists.

This is a debateable point. But, honestly, I really don't want to get into it...


The understandating of the government's ability to endrorse religion has likely changed since 1789.

So says you. The philosophy of constitutional interpretation can be different depending on who you ask.


It's a very different world, and we have different societal norms.

I hope these new sociatal norms don't stray from the Ten Commandments too far.

This whole separation of church and state thing isn't even a founding document. It was written in a letter. In my opinion, this letter is being used as propaganda for the secular/atheistic/anti-Christian groups out there.

And Luke--did the Puritans not come here to escape religious persecution?

Excellent point. Yes, they did indeed come here to escape the religious persecution of the Church of England.


Weren't they looking to worship in their own way, a way that was different?

Exactly. They wanted to worship their own way and the Church of England wanted to force their views on them.


I thought this whole place was supposed to be about religious freedoms and differences, but it seems that people don't believe in that anymore.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Frankly, public schools are funded by public money, taxpayers money. Some of those taxpayers do not want to see their money spent in schools where a religion is so obviously chosen for the masses.

That's right. And some taxpayers don't want to see their money spent in public schools, period. Especially when the government sponsored religion is Secular Humanism.

As a side note... why do I have to pay taxes when I don't even have kids. And when I do have kids and opt to send them to private school, I'll be paying taxes to the public school and paying for private school. Interesting, our government...


Ask a kid who's gone to a religious school...they'll tell you that the same issues (drugs, sex, rock 'n roll) are there just like they are in public schools.

Another aside, I teach in a private Christian school. There are all the same issues you mention.

But that's beside the point. Even as a nod to our nation's Christian heritage, I think we should leave all the Christian symbolism (or whatever symbolism it is) alone. Either that, or sandblast the walls of the Supreme Court, Washington Monument, Lincoln Memorial, etc. to remove every instance of religion.

I think the sheer numbers are in the religious folks' favor.

bandnerd, i believe the phrasing was 'idiot school board.' -M

Luke--

Show me where our government has a religion that they sponsor...and I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure Secular Humanism isn't a religion.

Paying taxes to schools even when you don't have children can be a pain, I know. However, we are all investing in our country's future this way, are we not? Do you have a better plan? I certainly don't. I like getting paid.

Is it really that hard to realize that not everyone is a Christian? I know I'm not alone here...well, maybe *here* on this forum but I know there are others out there like me. Putting up pictures of Jesus and other Christian figures in public schools gives the message that Christianity is the religion of this country, and it is not. You can say it's Secular Humanism, but I'm pretty darn sure our government has no sponsored religion, just like we don't claim an actual "national language."

I reiterate something I said earlier: Do we see Stars of David in public schools? Or Buddha statues? Or Shiva shrines? NO. While "separation of church and state" may have only been mentioned in a letter written Thomas Jefferson it was a good idea. Countries that allow religion to take over the government often fail...the Roman Empire, for one...the Middle East is in complete turmoil. To me it just seems better to keep these things separate. You can disagree, I just wanted to say that.

And is Secular Humanism all that bad? Ever looked it up?

so i looked into this a little more since i wanted to see the painting that was deemed oppresive. well, i found it here (http://www.wboy.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=9247&catid=45). i've gotta say i feel a little bamboozled on this one.

Looks can be deceiving... He's out to get YOU!

;)

Here's a thought that is sort of puzzling to me. Why are these anti-religious people passionate about their disbelief in religion? Those who have religious ideas, sure, that I can understand having passion for. But If you don't subscribe to any religions, why do you care? Just laugh and move on. Why are many of these people insistent on wanting to take down every semblance of religion? These religious images are important to some people and have real meaning, even if it's historic.

I drive by a Planned Parenthood everyday. I don't even notice it most days. When I do, I don't try to go in and change everyone's mind about abortion. I don't sue them for "shoving their beliefs in my face" as I drive by on public streets everyday. I mean, seriously. It just seems ridiculous.

this is a debateable point. but, honestly, i really don't want to get into it...i'm not so sure how this is debateable. i mean, i'll spot you george washington, but other than that...

even more of a reason to keep them up. there are many more muslims, jews and christians in the united states than those who oppose the ten commandments. under the currently strict interpretation of separation of church and state, i don't see how religious popularity plays into this.

looks can be deceiving... he's out to get you! yep, i'm sure they've got that picture situated by the office for a reason... so the picture stares down all the bad kids.
-M

So we aren't allowed to be passionate about something that we feel is important? We're passionate about people imposing their religious views on us when we don't want them.

If you can't understand that, then you're not trying hard enough. It's a pretty simple concept. But it goes both ways. If you feel I'm being too "imposing" with my lack of belief, then I'll just stop. We can agree to disagree about this issue. But I still stand by why I feel this painting should be taken down.

Luke--

Show me where our government has a religion that they sponsor...and I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure Secular Humanism isn't a religion.

I was being fecetious. The point is that there is no neutral here. It's a religion either way. Secular Humanists desire to force every religious symbol out of the public arena is as much an oppression as the Jews who were forced to wear Stars of David in WWII.


Paying taxes to schools even when you don't have children can be a pain, I know. However, we are all investing in our country's future this way, are we not? Do you have a better plan? I certainly don't. I like getting paid.

Privatize education. Let people keep their education tax dollars and send their children to whichever school they want. It's only because the government has a monopoly on education that there aren't more choices. But, I digress...


Is it really that hard to realize that not everyone is a Christian?

Not at all. I understand completely. But, are you really implying that the mere presence of, say, the Ten Commandments makes you feel proslytized? And in most cases these symbols have been around for so long. It's just that one anti-religious person wants to force their views on the whole town or whatver the case may be.


Putting up pictures of Jesus and other Christian figures in public schools gives the message that Christianity is the religion of this country, and it is not. You can say it's Secular Humanism, but I'm pretty darn sure our government has no sponsored religion, just like we don't claim an actual "national language."

Again, I was being faceitious. However, there are some Secular Humanists that do, indeed, believe it to be a religion.


I reiterate something I said earlier: Do we see Stars of David in public schools? Or Buddha statues? Or Shiva shrines? NO.

Why not? Because the United States has a Christian history.


While "separation of church and state" may have only been mentioned in a letter written Thomas Jefferson it was a good idea.

Can you imagine if a letter by President Bush is appealed to hundreds of years from now as the reason why we should or should do something? I mean, come on, it's not even a founding a document.

I dunno, it just seems that the mere presence of symbols that have been around for scores of years on public buildings is so passive a reference to religion. If Christians were trying as hard as anti-religious people to get Christian symbols put on more buildings, all hell would break loose (figuratively speaking, of course). But this is exactly what the Secular Humanists are doing - forcing their anti-religious view on everyone. Either way, someone's view is gonna win.

So we aren't allowed to be passionate about something that we feel is important? We're passionate about people imposing their religious views on us when we don't want them.

No, I understand that there are many who share your views and are passionate about their irreligious values.


If you can't understand that, then you're not trying hard enough. It's a pretty simple concept. But it goes both ways. If you feel I'm being too "imposing" with my lack of belief, then I'll just stop. We can agree to disagree about this issue. But I still stand by why I feel this painting should be taken down.

I understand. There are, indeed, two competing religions here: Secular Humanism and Theism (mainly Biblical Christianity). Both's agenda: further their cause.

under the currently strict interpretation of separation of church and state, i don't see how religious popularity plays into this.

"Strict interpretation" makes it sound like it's some sort of legal document. The separation of church and state idea was in a letter hundreds of years ago.

yeah luke because of course Christians aren't trying hard to convert people to their way of thinking...only the non religious folks that are trying to impose their will on the masses

I can't even count the number of times that non religious folks have come to my home with burning in hell literature...always a great way to spend my saturday afternoons

luke,
granted, the phrasing isn't in the bill of rights but the first ammendment is currently interpreted as if it were. so given how the constitution is currently interpreted i didn't see how your statement came into play. -M

Why do people have to make a big deal of Jesus hanging on a wall? Geesh!
How many Christians would make a big deal about Buddha hanging on a school wall?

How many Christians would make a big deal about Buddha hanging on a school wall?

And how many anti-religious people would make a big deal about a Buddha? Probably none.

Because Buddha is so much more benign. The way I've always understood it is that Buddhism isn't a religion that worships any actual god. You're looking for the path to enlightenment. Aren't we, as teachers, trying to enlighten our students?

Oops, there I go, posting before 8am. If this made no sense, please ignore it. I haven't had my oatmeal.

you should've waited 14 more minutes, dammit.

in any event, given your last comment it seems that your beef isn't necessarily with violating separation of church and state per se, but with religions that are vocal and actively try to recruit.

and yes, buddhism has no actual god. however, they still make offerings and such to buddha so there is a ritual component to their religion. -M

Yeah, I'll admit I have a problem with people always trying to convert me. I'm glad I live in an apartment complex that has gates to drive and walk in so they can't find me. I don't like having people knock on my door at 9pm telling me about their worship group they have formed on my complex (they were creepy...Midtowner might remember that night) or the Mormon kids on their bikes chasing me down in a cul de sac.

However, I work in a place where a majority of the teachers are Catholic, and NONE of them have ever tried to force anything on me, or recruit me to their church. They know I'm not religious, and they don't have a problem with it. My friends have never tried to convert or "fix" me. My family leaves me alone. They know I have had bad experiences with church and understand that it is an issue with me that is best left alone and in the past.

Okay, so my little psychoanalysis is over. Back to topic.

And how many anti-religious people would make a big deal about a Buddha? Probably none. Can you name one case where that has occured?

On the converse, I do know many Christians who have successfully managed to get Halloween celebrations banned in many public schools. Our family personally does not celebrate Halloween in any form, but we do not impose that practice on others.

Should Christians be surprised that "anti-religious people" don't want a picture of Jesus in a public school? Certainly not.


"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." — Jesus (John 15:18-19)
Does removing the picture deprive Christians of their right to practice their faith? Absolutely not. Does antagonizing those who want it remove the portrait help win them to Christ? Absolutely not. Do we, as Christians, need a portrait of Jesus displayed in a public school in order to worship Him? I hope not. So, is this a battle worth fighting? I think not.

My point is that both sides are going to push for their viewpoints to be forced on others. Whether I agree with that or not is another issue. But it's happening by those claiming to be Christians as well as by those who are irreligious.

My point is that both sides are going to push for their viewpoints to be forced on others. Whether I agree with that or not is another issue. But it's happening by those claiming to be Christians as well as by those who are irreligious.

A wall without a portrait of Jeebus is not a viewpoint. It's a lack of one.

-- or are you attempting to assert that every single wall without a religious icon of some sort is an endorsement of atheism?

good point midtowner