Will there be a MAPS III, and will it include light rail?

I think light rail is in Oklahoma City's future but not for another 25 years.


The main problem light rail faces is the fact OKC is not a 24-hour city. Most people in OKC are in for the night by 10 and in bed by 12. The only people you see on the streets after midnight are the partiers, the graveyard workers, and those of us who have to make a trip to the store.

Everyplace that has light rail is a 24-hour city for the most part. There always people coming and going from one place to another.

As the soon as metro reaches somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million light rail will happen. In the meantime, it is just a pipe dream.

Although I am HIGHLY in favor of light rail, and know we have I took to thank for not having it now, look for MAPSIII to include a new headquarters building for the Police Department.

Probably not light rail.

When will there be a MAPS III?

When will there be a MAPS III?

You can look for it about the time MAPS II is retired.

I think we will get more fire stations and possibly EMSA funds from it also. Probably not much as far as beautification.

I know of at least part of the DART system in Dallas shuts down at 1 or 2am. Are parts of the system 24 hrs?

DC's Metro shuts down at 1:00 am or so. I was just there a couple months ago.

mranderson, I don't think police stations and ambulances are the kinds of things that belong on a MAPS project list.

DC's Metro shuts down at 1:00 am or so. I was just there a couple months ago.

mranderson, I don't think police stations and ambulances are the kinds of things that belong on a MAPS project list.

Maybe not, however, the police department wants a new headquarters and EMSA will probably be part of the fire department. The best way to fund them is MAPS.

The city of Oklahoma City owns the EMSA fleet, however, the funds are needed to merge them into city services. (personnel, etc.)

I think projects like police stations and fire stations are usually served by a bond issue.

Just about everybody's metro system shuts down. The only ones I know of in the US that are 24 hours are in New York and Chicago.

So, the fact that OKC isn't a 24 hour city should not prohibit it from developing a light rail. I hope that the downtown circular will be part of MAPS III. Believe me, if it is - IT WILL speed up development of downtown, both in terms of housing and street retail. Just go to Portland and ask them about the development brought on by the www.portlandstreetcar.org (http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/history.php)

Portland Streetcar has developed their Pearl District into a great urban/upscale neighbourhood downtown - similar to a town centre concept. Recently, the streetcar was extended the other way which single handedly created development of a NEW housing district on the Waterfront. This is ALL because of their extension of the Streetcar - which is a free downtown circular. At the web site, note the hours!

OKC needs to begin with that, and it needs to be part of MAPS III. :artist:

I think projects like police stations and fire stations are usually served by a bond issue.

Granted. However, as we all know, Oklahoma City has had better luck with tax issues. So, I figure MAPS III could include the new cop shop.

Yeah, EMSA and Police are NOT likely to be a part of MAPS 3. And I believe you are wrong on the beautification issue. It will more than likely be a part of it. Have you sat on a Forward OKC III meeting or any preliminary talks/discussions/focus groups regarding the issue?

I have.

I like the downtown circular idea.

I think OKC should have had the rail system in MAPS I, but ISTOOK took the idea down and gave it to Utah. I think we do need a rail system in MAPS III. The new system should take people from the airport to places like Bricktown, the Zoo, the Reed Center, etc., but when will MAPS II be complete? Pleas send info on it because I don’t have much info on this matter. Also, what ARE the topics brought up in the meeting concerning MAPS III (if there are meetings)?

A circular from the Arts Quarter to Bricktown with stops in between (museum, gardens, Cox/Ford) would be a great starting point.

Would a monorail be too expensive?

I think monorails are expensive, but it would be so unique and we wouldn't interfere with current traffic patterns and less stuff would have to be destroyed since it goes above everything. Las Vegas did a monorail just recently. Disney World uses a monorail system all over the place. Two of the biggest entertainment meccas do... maybe we should. :)

I think we sould!!!!!!!!

MAPS III will probably have at its heart an extensive, viable quality of life improvement feature, as the previous versions of MAPS have.

That's why they are so successful with the taxpayers. When Tulsa's leaders tried to pimp those amateur sporting facilities, the voters revolted. My guess is that OKC voters would be none to impressed to have the MAPS brand applied to basic brick and mortar stuff.

We'll need to do some serious beautification work to coincide with the new I-40, or we're going to have slums as our gateway.

I just returned from Milwaukee, which has an extremely dense core with several big tourist attractions spread around about a 10-mile loop. There is so much infill and renovation going on there it is simply staggering, so the area gets more and more dense with every passing day.

They already have very high bus ridership and yet they are still nowhere close to getting light rail.

Instead, they are considering electric buses in dedicated lanes because the cost is so prohibitive.

I agree there need to be some flagship aspects of MAPS III. It can't just be... Trees along the interstates, HOV lanes, landscaping along the new downtown boulevard. It needs things like an expanded Myriad Gardens/Central Park (perhaps a Delmar Gardens revival), the downtown circular, perhaps a new museum downtown or on the river, an Asian District gate, etc.

Also, I was thinking we need some kind of entry signage for Bricktown at the Finley Bridge. Maybe an arch with the same Bricktown sign that is on the underpasses at Sheridan and Reno, or maybe someone like Rand Elliot can think of something more creative.

For MAPS III, a full-on convention center built adjacent to the Cox and Fords centers would greatly enhance tourism.

Also, perhaps incentives for a big new convention hotel (ala Hyatt) for just south of the Galleria parking facility.

And more improvements for the Oklahoma River would be nice as well.

For MAPS III, a full-on convention center built adjacent to the Cox and Fords centers would greatly enhance tourism.

Also, perhaps incentives for a big new convention hotel (ala Hyatt) for just south of the Galleria parking facility.

And more improvements for the Oklahoma River would be nice as well.

I like those ideas!!!, but where would this new convention center go, and how would it fill a gap in the city like the Ford did? Also, I was wondering, are we soon going to drown the market with TOO many hotels? Although we DO need them NOW!! I am talking about once the Residence Inn, Hampton, Embassy Suites, SKIRVEN, and Colcord are done, will we need more? I think the river and I-40 expansion area is the way to GO!!! We do need things on the river now that it is NICE. I think we need hotels, restaurants (local), some clubs and bars, tones of shopping, little office areas, some condos (no apartments), and some recreational areas. Oh, and if that is not enough, just make the river bigger (i.e. make it longer, some parts around the highway look bad, but you really can’t expand to that area for another 25 years). The river should be a tourist destination, like the St. Louis arch. I like the idea of a monorail along the river and downtown (I just hope it is not too expensive). Also, if that is a bad idea, then a train would do NICE. It could start downtown and along the river, then to the airport and Tinker, then the zoo and Cowboy museum, then to other areas like Norman, Moore, Edmond, etc. I DO love those ideas though!!!

I agree with ETL. The next MAPS project should focus on developing the river as well as at least establishing a foundation for monorail or light rail around the metro with the suburbs kicking in $$$ to make connections to them.

Oh yeah, and how 'bout a bid for the Summer Olympics in 2024?

We could give it a shot.

We do need a foundation for transit! MAPS Transit Dep.

Oh, I forgot to mention that once that river area starts to develop, we do need to keep the old warehouses and the Bricktown them, but it needs some modern flair like a mix with a beach type area. (Just a thought! It is a river.)

Just about everybody's metro system shuts down. The only ones I know of in the US that are 24 hours are in New York and Chicago.

Actually NYC isn't 24 hours. They shutdown for about 2 hours I think between 4 am and 6 am. Oh wait but that might be outbound to NJ only... as I know since I've gone out clubbing and just missed the last train to NJ and got stuck waiting in Grand Central for 2 hours... in the middle of the night... :poke: good times good times. Hehe :)

But I do think they have a little down time. Not much, but still. :-p

IMO, a monorail downtown should be part of the next MAPS project.

This is how I would have the rout go.

Follow this link >>> http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=monorailou6.jpg

For info on what they cost, I went here >>> http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/HowMuch.html

Good Idea or BAD Idea? Let me know what you think? :spin:

Light rail will never ever work in OKC. In fact, it is a mistake in almost every city it has been tried in. The cost per mile is so high that it will never make money and is to slow to complete with the average car - even during rush hour. OKC already has very good rail network that could take advantage of commuter rail. Colorado Rail Car (www.coloradorailcar.com) has built a commuter diesel unit that can run on standard frieght lines. Trains could run from El Reno to Shawnee, Norman/Purcel to Edmond/Guthrie into a transit station under downtown OKC. A line can even run to the airport. All the track is there. All that is need is a downtown hub (don't feed me the line about the old Union Station) and the rolling stock. The average cost of 400 passenger Colorado Rail Car train is about $6,000,000. That is less than the cost of one mile of light rail track!

Commuter rail and a downtown trolley connecting downtown OKC to the medical centers and the State Capitol would be perfect. Commuter rai could also serve the adventure district.

"Light rail will never ever work in OKC."

It seems like we heard this same song and dance with major league sports, and we all know who won that one... Think about it.

I'm not saying light rail won't work in OKC because there is something wrong with OKC. Light rail won't work because light rail is flawed. We should not repeat the same mistakes other city have made. Light rail simply cost way too much per mile. Why not use the infrastructure that is already in place?

Just took a look at the monorail pricing. Let just say OKC can forget monorail. With most systems costing well over $10 million per mile just for construction I think they are out of the price range of most cities. An entire commuter rail system could be built for the cost of just 10 miles of monorail. Light rail cost even more.

OKC is just not ready for commuter rail.

I do not trust COTPA to run a multimillion-dollar operation.

Then again, if we do build it we could always raise gas taxes $5.00 a gallon to pay for its installation. Then raise the taxes to $10.00 a gallon to keep it operating and expanding.

This concept would force people to stop driving and start riding.

With a MAPS style funding system to cover construction cost - maintenace and operating expenses would be paid by the riders. In fact - many commuter rail systems are private operations. Why would there be any need to tax people who drive their cars even more? Raising taxes to force people to live a lifestyle they don't want is the liberal version of life.

There are many reason why people would choose to ride a fast and affordable rail system. Parking in downotwn OKC cost $100 to $200 per month. A monthly pass on rail would cost around $50. Gas to and from Norman to OKC during rush hour/game night is about $10 round trip. On rail - it is already paid for with a monthly pass. Drink all you want in Bricktown - take the train home - and have a cab drive you the final 2 miles.

We could have a pay as you go pass similar to a PikePass, so people that just use it irregularly would only pay when they used it.

Well, I see what you are saying about a light rail system used by and for the locals, but the monorail idea is for the tourists. From what I have read, OKC is trying to become a convention city (like Las Vegas), so I think if this is our goal, then a monorail downtown is where to start. Not many people have a monorail! Following the path that I drew and if we could get for $10 million/mi., then it would only cost $33.6 million for construction. This concept, IMO, is the same as the canal that has worked so well. The monorail would tell of our history and be a huge attraction, but locals don’t ride it to work. I think this would work. Good or Bad?

We need to change our metality of commuter rail/ light rail. It should not be about whether or not it would work in Oklahoma City. People, especially politicians, treat rail as though it is a luxury. And while the cost associated with rail is exuberant, reducing carbon dioxide output should be the mission of every major American city, and that includes educating and encouraging citizens to use public transit, especially commuter rail and/or other environmentally friendly transportation options.

MAPS III needs to focus on turning Oklahoma City into a green city. By that I mean, improve public transportation in a way that would make Oklahoma City an example. That includes HOV lanes, top notch city-funded highway improvements, and commuter rail. Let's build on this idea, everyone.

Like I said, it's not a question of whether or not it would work, it's a matter of MAKING it work. The United States government is the only U.N. country that shelved the Kyoto Treaty, citing a hinderance to economic growth. What a shame of our leadership.

Shelbyville has a monorail. I don't think convention planners look for cities that have a monorail and then decide to have their convention in that city. They might look at transportation infrastructure as one of criteria but that would be it.

Here in Jacksonville we have the Skyway which is an elevated monorail system. Each train holds about 20 people but the system is rarely used by anyone except office workers.

Here is a link with good photos of the JAX system:
http://faculty.washington.edu/~jbs/itrans/jack.htm

For the downtown core I would prefer street level electrick trollies like Tampa:
http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/

Well it was just a thought, but what would be our next MAJOR attraction?

Oh, is FOKC the same as MAPS?

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT:Hargis envisions MAPS III `I think it's time to start planning the next stage' - 12/26/2002


The Journal Record

Burns Hargis, vice chairman of Bank of Oklahoma and newly inducted chairman of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce 's board of directors, has an ambitious vision for the future of Oklahoma City.

That vision includes new downtown housing and schools, the possible introduction of rail transit to the area, and growth in the area's existing industry "clusters."

Hargis said his main goal as chairman of the Chamber "is to envision MAPS III," developing the next big economic development initiative for Oklahoma City.

"I think it's time to start planning the next stage," he said. "I don't think we can sit on our laurels."

Hargis believes the original Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS) program -- which resulted in the revitalization of downtown Oklahoma City through construction of a new ballpark and an improved downtown arena, as well as other civic renovations -- is a "platform for success, and we want to be able to really take full advantage of it when the economy does turn."

A major component of that effort will be a focus on attracting tourism to the area.

"We need to be a destination city for tourism, for conventions," Hargis said. "We've got a great start now with great convention facilities. We're beginning to get the hotel rooms that we need to accommodate those conventions."

Hargis said successful economic development brings money from outside the region into Oklahoma City.

"If the dollars are just in the region, just circulating within the region, there's no growth there. That's not economic development. You have to have dollars come from outside in. And tourism dollars or convention dollars are just ideal. People bring their dollars in, they spend them here, but they don't drive on our roads, they don't foul our air or our water. It's just a very clean and effective method of economic development."

To draw more tourist money into Oklahoma City, officials will have to connect places of interest within the city -- like the Oklahoma City National Memorial, the fairgrounds, the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum, downtown -- with a transportation system, "maybe a monorail."

He also believes the canal needs to be extended "into the downtown area through the hotel area to provide both a venue for entertainment but also (add) the physical attraction."

"We probably need to cut a channel of the river into downtown," Hargis said. "I know we have the canal running there, but we probably need to go ahead and cut a channel in so you can take boats in and you can bring the boats right into the hotel area."

He also wants to see downtown become an actual community, and not just a destination location.

"We need to get a lot of housing downtown. We need to get schools downtown," Hargis said. "The downtown area needs to `stay awake' at night, so to speak. And that means people have to live down here, so that will be a big focus."

At the same time, Hargis said chamber officials also plan to build on "industry clusters" already in place in the metro area, such as the aircraft maintenance cluster at Tinker Air Force Base and the medical research center located between downtown Oklahoma City and the State Capitol.

"Research dollars, it's almost better than those tourists or conventioneers. You don't have any of the silly hats for one thing, but research dollars by and large emanate from the federal government in Washington."

He said better connections between downtown and the research area is needed to make Oklahoma City more attractive to companies looking to relocate.

"They'll be close to all this great housing we're going to have downtown and they'll be able to go have a great meal or see a sports event over in Bricktown and it'll just be a terrific opportunity."

It's an ambitious agenda, and one that could easily be derailed by any number of factors from a bad economy to simple ingrained opposition to change. But Hargis believes Oklahoma City residents have proven they can be visionary by both launching and successfully completing the original MAPS program.

"The major obstacle for anything like this is just the attitude of the people, and I think our attitude is great," Hargis said, "but I think we need to keep the momentum going. You know, there's so much negative press about the economy and the terrorism overhang and all the rest, it's a tough time to be an optimist. But that's our job, and I think by and large our city is still very optimistic."

Any updates on this?

I agree with okcplus on that idea. The thing about the Kyoto Treaty is that the countries on that treat are totaly different as far as industrialization.

"Light rail will never ever work in OKC."

It seems like we heard this same song and dance with major league sports, and we all know who won that one... Think about it.

The above quote was from a person that used to favor commuter rail in OKC, and even developed a website for a group of citizens that were interested in lobbying for commuter rail in OKC. Wow, what a change in opinion. Sounds like old Okie blood. Okie blood has changed over the past 10-15 years, and the pessimism no longer is as rampant here, thank God.

Sounds a lot like the old pessmism, "OKC will never be able to support a major league team."

The above quote was from a person that used to favor commuter rail in OKC, and even developed a website for a group of citizens that was interested in lobbying for commuter rail in OKC. Wow, what a change in opinion. Sounds like old Okie blood. Okie blood has changed over the past 10-15 years, and the pessimism no longer is as rampant here, thank God.

Is the website still active, and what changed his mind?

Is the website still active, and what changed his mind?

The website was developed to represent a group of concerned citizens who called themselves OCART, Oklahoma Area Rapid Transit. The group, made up of about 20 members, some of which post here (Keith, myself, floater, and a few others) met for about a year before disbanding. Part of the reason for disbanding was because our thoughts were landing on deaf ears: Kirk Humphreys!

Not sure what changed his mind. You'd have to ask Kerry.

Well i wish there was another orgaization that I could get involved in!

Well i wish there was another orgaization that I could get involved in!

Oklahoma Railway Museum has a good PAC group that you might check into. They're probably the strongest advocate of commuter rail in OKC.

http://www.oklahomarailwaymuseum.org/

Thanks

I think you were refering to me and not Mr Anderson with your quote. I am still in favor of rail in OKC. I just get a little frustrated with people using the incorrect terminology. Light rail is a very specific type of rail but many people use it to mean "some kind of rail" system. I have done some aditional readin tonight and light rail is now approaching $50 million per mile. I think there are better ways to spend money.

As I see it, OKC has 4 areas that could use some kind of rail infrastrucutre.

1. Suburbs to downtown/airport
2. Downtown loop to Capitol Bricktown, OU medical, St. Anthony's
3. Adventure district
4. Meridian Hotels to downtown

Here are the modes of transporatation for each:
1. Coloradro Rail Car commuter rail
2. Electric street level trolley
3. Electric street level trolley (could be extension of above trolley or connect to another commuter rail station near Cowboy Hall of Fame)
4. electric trolley running along Meridian with connection to commuter rail on tracks just North of I-40. Could extend all the way to the airport.

I love the idea, but they are not unique to a city like a monorail is. I think we should have a monorail, but it will only go around downtown. The rest could be more practical like commuter rail.

A monorail is not that unique, as has already been stated.

A monorail is not that unique, as has already been stated.

What do you mean, “...as has already been started”?

Someone already mentioned that there is one in Jacksonville and one in Seattle and I believe someone mentioned there's on in Las Vegas.

monorail = not unique

Well, there are less monorails than trains, trolleys, and buses. Look at the list of cities that DON'T have a monorail.

I'm definately down for some high speed train from Stillwater-->downtown OKC. HaHa

I think you were refering to me and not Mr Anderson with your quote. I am still in favor of rail in OKC. I just get a little frustrated with people using the incorrect terminology. Light rail is a very specific type of rail but many people use it to mean "some kind of rail" system. I have done some aditional readin tonight and light rail is now approaching $50 million per mile. I think there are better ways to spend money.

As I see it, OKC has 4 areas that could use some kind of rail infrastrucutre.

1. Suburbs to downtown/airport
2. Downtown loop to Capitol Bricktown, OU medical, St. Anthony's
3. Adventure district
4. Meridian Hotels to downtown

Here are the modes of transporatation for each:
1. Coloradro Rail Car commuter rail
2. Electric street level trolley
3. Electric street level trolley (could be extension of above trolley or connect to another commuter rail station near Cowboy Hall of Fame)
4. electric trolley running along Meridian with connection to commuter rail on tracks just North of I-40. Could extend all the way to the airport.

Thanks for the clarification Kerry. I'm glad you're still on board. I hoped we hadn't lost you in regards to commuter rail lines for the OKC metro!

BTW, you in Jacksonville now? I'm guessing you moved from Tampa?

COTPA, who operates MetroTransit, just finished a Fixed Guideway Transit Study for central Oklahoma. The study concludes with a 2030 system plan vision that includes a commuter rail service from Norman to Edmond and from downtown to Tinker. It also includes a modern streetcar circulator that would connect downtown, bricktown and the health center. Bus rapid transit was suggested for the NW Highway, Reno and SW 59th Street, and enhanced bus service for the entire Metro Transit system was also proposed. It's a complete 25 year plan. It's pretty expensive and would take a MAPSIII to fund but to be a big city, OKC needs a big city public transit system.

Patrick,

I am still on board for rail in OKC. The best time to do it is now while it is still affordable (in a relative sense). Yes I am now living in Jacksonville, FL. Moved up here almost 3 years ago. The OKC rail web site is no longer available. Someone will need to make a new one.

Now that plans makes sense. In fact, it is the same thing I proposed nearly 6 years ago on the old Oklahoman MAPS message board. I am a little surprised that they are not more agressive on a route that parallels I-40. However, I am still hapy to hear they are working on something.

Here is the link. Lots of cool stuff. This plan seems further along than I thought. Check it out. Some of the maps take a long to load so be patient.

http://www.okfgs.org/

I am a little surprised that they are not more agressive on a route that parallels I-40.

A cheap plan already exists for a rail line parallel to I-40. It currently links in with Union Station rail yard. Problem is, the re-allignment of I-40 is destroying all of that. It will cost us so much more to build a new system from scratch.

Why is it going to take 20+ years to complete this transit plan?

I know a lot of hoopla has been made about the Union station but here is the cold hard truth - it is in the wrong place. No way could that staion be used for any kind of intermodal downtown station. It is simply too far away from where the people want to go.

What would be interesting is if the station could be moved. According to the plan outlined above there is supposed to be an intermodel station at NE23 to serve the capitol. Moving the stataio a few miles would make it a very unique facility.