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OKC Guy
01-20-2019, 12:25 AM
If OKC does get an IKEA, I really hope it’s not at Chisholm Creek. My understanding has always been that’s supposed to eventually be a walkable, urbanism neighborhood. Putting a massive, massive big box right in the middle of it with the acres and acres of parking it would need would completely kill the vibe.

Although I agree its not an ideal spot for Ikea (its more eating and entertainment) the walkability ship has sailed. This complex is a huge draw and the only way to get there is by car except a small contingent of local residents who cannot support all of what they have now and have planned in future. Its at a major traffic intersection (turnpike and 235). They can make it more walkable once parked in their complex I agree, but there is and will be a ton of businesses here. I view it like a mini Bricktown away from Bricktown except no clubs. Its in a perfect spot to draw traffic from all directions too. Once the moviepub opens thats more outside area traffic too.

SEMIweather
01-20-2019, 01:28 AM
If OKC does get an IKEA, I really hope it’s not at Chisholm Creek. My understanding has always been that’s supposed to eventually be a walkable, urbanism neighborhood. Putting a massive, massive big box right in the middle of it with the acres and acres of parking it would need would completely kill the vibe.

Yeah I'm very doubtful that Chisholm Creek will ever be nearly as walkable as everyone hopes.

shawnw
01-20-2019, 01:29 AM
I've always felt the walkability promise was just bait.

stlokc
01-20-2019, 08:22 AM
I just went to the Chisholm Creek master plan and saw the map, which still calls for a couple of streets lined with buildings. There’s no way an IKEA could be placed there without giving up on all of that. As Trump would say: “Sad!”

There are several miles of open land along the turnpike further east of that development, and for that matter, up and down Broadway Extension, that would be far better and easier for traffic access also.

catch22
01-20-2019, 11:01 AM
Lookup Cascade Station in Portland. It’s a walkable hybrid strip mall/shopping area with an IKEA. They can fit in.

While not walkable, IKEA Centennial (Denver) has practically no surface parking. The showroom/warehouse is built on top of a large two story parking garage.

https://images1.westword.com/imager/ikea-so-big-is-has-its-own-gravity/u/original/6573852/ikea_denver1.jpg

stlokc
01-20-2019, 11:31 AM
No offense Catch22, but I just googled the Portland IKEA and saw a picture with 360 degree view and it looks like a big box in a parking lot. Now, the one with the parking garage has a lot of merit to me (and actually the one in St. Louis has a garage as well), I'm just not convinced they would go to the trouble of doing that in suburban OKC. Even if they did, it would still force them to take away what would be the most appealing part of Chisholm Creek - the "Main Street" feel that is supposed to be coming in Phase 25 or whatever.

If it were ever to go along that corridor, put it east of Costco somewhere towards Santa Fe, there's plenty of open land there. And it will even out the traffic problems a bit.

End of rant.

jonny d
01-20-2019, 11:40 AM
Lookup Cascade Station in Portland. It’s a walkable hybrid strip mall/shopping area with an IKEA. They can fit in.

While not walkable, IKEA Centennial (Denver) has practically no surface parking. The showroom/warehouse is built on top of a large two story parking garage.

https://images1.westword.com/imager/ikea-so-big-is-has-its-own-gravity/u/original/6573852/ikea_denver1.jpg

Cascade Station is not walkable, at least by what this board measures it by. It's in a plaza similar to Midwest City Town Center. IKEA doesn't go in walkable areas.

I do like your pic with the garage under the store.

stile99
01-20-2019, 12:37 PM
While sometimes the walkability fans have good points, sometimes I think they're just puking out a word they have little to no understanding of. Case in point, using it in connection with IKEA.

Yes, walkability sure is important for an IKEA. Because that's how EVERYONE gets their BJÖRKSNÄS, MÖRBYLÅNGA, and RÖNNSKÄR home. I mean, how else would you, am I right?

Plutonic Panda
01-20-2019, 12:50 PM
As nice as it would be to see Chisholm Creek build the walkable portion shown in the renderings and master plan, I would gladly trade that for an ikea designed around cars. Chisholm Creek is already worlds above any other retail development in the state right now and that’s saying something; IMHO of course.

It’s nice to have walkable developments spread out around the city, but it won’t make or break this one.

PS, their Facebook page says they will announce a new tenant soon.

OKC Guy
01-20-2019, 01:18 PM
As nice as it would be to see Chisholm Creek build the walkable portion shown in the renderings and master plan, I would gladly trade that for an ikea designed around cars. Chisholm Creek is already worlds above any other retail development in the state right now and that’s saying something; IMHO of course.

It’s nice to have walkable developments spread out around the city, but it won’t make or break this one.

PS, their Facebook page says they will announce a new tenant soon.

Agree. Without highrises this area is a destination for quite a few miles around. It can’t be Bricktown/downtown and its not trying to be. With turnpike location access that extends the reach of customers. 10 miles on turnpike is faster than 3 or so miles on city roads. And because its an entertainment complex it will draw folks from all over.

My take is Bricktown is nice but if driving from out of downtown area its more a hassle these days due to growth. And Chisholm is growing up at the right time. I think Chisholm will draw people away from Bricktown (for example someone in Edmond decides to go to Chisholm now when they used to go to Bricktown). Chalk will be awesome imo. Movie pub. Golf. Food. Medical. Outdoor. And more.

I really like this complex and the only beef is surrounding roads not being improved “prior” to this complex growth. Thats my one big beef with OKC, we wait until after congestion to deal with roads not before. Same as Paycom, its growth was known ahead and yet city has done nothing. Clogged roads can hurt you economically the same as not enough parking can hurt you downtown (regardless if true or not if people think it does that changes money spending habits).

Due to how our city/ metro is so far and wide cars will be a staple for decades and there is nothing wrong with us admitting and working with it. Mass transit is so far away for most so in meantime we need to embrace cars. And Chisholm does this and I can see much of my own future money being spent here. Same for Costo other side of road.

Plutonic Panda
01-20-2019, 02:05 PM
^^^^ I echo your concerns about surrounding roads. Very shortsighted move on the city’s part.

Dob Hooligan
01-20-2019, 05:03 PM
I blame the developers for the road issue. These are lifelong OKC people who have made tremendous wealth here. They could easily have already paid to put in the turn lane on Penn in front of Freddie’s, taken care of Western south of Memorial, etc. I understand that business is never pay more, or earlier, than required. But Larry Nichols and Devon set the example by fully funding all Project180 street work in the area of their tower in exchange for TIF credits.

emtefury
01-20-2019, 05:13 PM
I cannot take it anymore. No one, except the people on the forum talking about walkability, cares about it. The shoppers are going to drive up in their F-150 and SUV buy stuff, eat dinner and drive home. I bet there will be a majority that drives to different places in the parking lot to the different stores so they don’t have to walk.

kevin lee
01-20-2019, 05:48 PM
Im trying to figure out if I've every seen anyone carry a bookshelf into a restaurant or just walk around with one in general.

stlokc
01-20-2019, 05:53 PM
...which is exactly why a store like IKEA does not belong in a shopping center like Chisholm Creek.

bchris02
01-20-2019, 06:27 PM
...which is exactly why a store like IKEA does not belong in a shopping center like Chisholm Creek.

Agree with this. I'm as much of a proponent of walkability as anyone but it doesn't matter for IKEA. What IKEA needs is a lot of cheap land within easy access to a very large customer base.

d-usa
01-20-2019, 06:30 PM
IKEA works perfectly fine in a place like this, it just has to be placed in a peripheral area.

catch22
01-20-2019, 06:36 PM
No offense Catch22, but I just googled the Portland IKEA and saw a picture with 360 degree view and it looks like a big box in a parking lot. Now, the one with the parking garage has a lot of merit to me (and actually the one in St. Louis has a garage as well), I'm just not convinced they would go to the trouble of doing that in suburban OKC. Even if they did, it would still force them to take away what would be the most appealing part of Chisholm Creek - the "Main Street" feel that is supposed to be coming in Phase 25 or whatever.

If it were ever to go along that corridor, put it east of Costco somewhere towards Santa Fe, there's plenty of open land there. And it will even out the traffic problems a bit.

End of rant.

None taken but I didn’t say the IKEA is “walkable”, but it is in a walkable development and it fits in just fine without impacting the feel of the area.

I’d say the IKEA in Cascade Station is much more pedestrian friendly than the one in Centennial, despite the Centennial building being more “urban”.

catch22
01-20-2019, 06:42 PM
Cascade Station is not walkable, at least by what this board measures it by. It's in a plaza similar to Midwest City Town Center. IKEA doesn't go in walkable areas.

I do like your pic with the garage under the store.


I beg to differ, it’s actually a very active pedestrian environment which there are no examples of in OKC. It’s not an urban paradise, but it’s far more pedestrian active than what you can probably assertain from a Google Earth picture.

Plutonic Panda
01-20-2019, 07:19 PM
I blame the developers for the road issue. These are lifelong OKC people who have made tremendous wealth here. They could easily have already paid to put in the turn lane on Penn in front of Freddie’s, taken care of Western south of Memorial, etc. I understand that business is never pay more, or earlier, than required. But Larry Nichols and Devon set the example by fully funding all Project180 street work in the area of their tower in exchange for TIF credits.
I agree the developers should have paid for some improvements, but let’s be honest, they’re going to need more than a turn lane.

d-usa
01-20-2019, 07:34 PM
It feels like going eastbound on the Turnpike, the off and on ramps should be swapped on May, Penn, and Western.

Plutonic Panda
01-20-2019, 08:01 PM
^^^^ at a minimum I feel like that, widening the Eastbound Service road(memorial), adding Texas turn around under the turnpike, dual turn and right turn lanes at lights, as well a continuous center turn lane on Western and Penn should be done.

In an ideal world, all roads would be widened to 6 lanes with Penn and Western having landscaped medians and Memorial widened to 8 lanes in immediate area. Western and Penn should also at least get class 2 bike lanes and ROW should also be preserved for a future rail and bike corridor to make future planning for a light rail network easier.

mgharfeh
01-21-2019, 08:53 AM
I just went to the Chisholm Creek master plan and saw the map, which still calls for a couple of streets lined with buildings. There’s no way an IKEA could be placed there without giving up on all of that. As Trump would say: “Sad!”

There are several miles of open land along the turnpike further east of that development, and for that matter, up and down Broadway Extension, that would be far better and easier for traffic access also.

Hi everyone, this is my first post on this site but I’ve been following it for years! My name is Majed. I can’t figure out how to post pictures on here from my phone yet but there’s one rendering of Chisholm Creek that’s more updated and slightly different than the rest. It has a squared out area between Argon Apartments and iFly that says “large retailer” and another square just south of that says “movie theater”. If I were betting I would guess that’s the planned location for IKEA. I actually think that’s a great location for it because it’s just off memorial and doesn’t take a large chunk out of the middle of Chisholm Creek where the retail area was planned.

PhiAlpha
01-21-2019, 08:41 PM
IKEA works perfectly fine in a place like this, it just has to be placed in a peripheral area.

This exactly

Pete
01-22-2019, 05:05 AM
Hi everyone, this is my first post on this site but I’ve been following it for years! My name is Majed. I can’t figure out how to post pictures on here from my phone yet but there’s one rendering of Chisholm Creek that’s more updated and slightly different than the rest. It has a squared out area between Argon Apartments and iFly that says “large retailer” and another square just south of that says “movie theater”. If I were betting I would guess that’s the planned location for IKEA. I actually think that’s a great location for it because it’s just off memorial and doesn’t take a large chunk out of the middle of Chisholm Creek where the retail area was planned.

Hi and welcome!

Here is that site plan you mentioned:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/chisholm012219.jpg

stlokc
01-22-2019, 07:24 AM
Mgharfeh-
If they can stick to that design, then I’m encouraged. Thank you for posting it, and welcome to the site.

PaddyShack
01-22-2019, 08:46 AM
^^^^ at a minimum I feel like that, widening the Eastbound Service road(memorial), adding Texas turn around under the turnpike, dual turn and right turn lanes at lights, as well a continuous center turn lane on Western and Penn should be done.

In an ideal world, all roads would be widened to 6 lanes with Penn and Western having landscaped medians and Memorial widened to 8 lanes in immediate area. Western and Penn should also at least get class 2 bike lanes and ROW should also be preserved for a future rail and bike corridor to make future planning for a light rail network easier.

I just don't see how you could fit all of those lanes in... I agree with the texas turnarounds and the center turn lanes, but widening to 6 and 8 lanes just doesn't make sense.

Plutonic Panda
01-22-2019, 09:11 AM
Theres plenty of room. Many cities do it, why is OKC any different?

stile99
01-22-2019, 09:56 AM
Theres plenty of room. Many cities do it, why is OKC any different?

When you say there is plenty of room for Memorial to be 8 lanes, I'm curious. Do you mean 4 along the north and 4 along the south, or are you just taking the piss? Because even just 4 lanes each way, it's very difficult to see how there is room. You just mentioned the eastbound lanes, so I'm not sure if you mean just that, both sides, or what.

Plutonic Panda
01-22-2019, 10:04 AM
When you say there is plenty of room for Memorial to be 8 lanes, I'm curious. Do you mean 4 along the north and 4 along the south, or are you just taking the piss? Because even just 4 lanes each way, it's very difficult to see how there is room. You just mentioned the eastbound lanes, so I'm not sure if you mean just that, both sides, or what.
Yes, 4 lanes each way. There is more than enough room. Even if Chisholm Creek would remove that squiggly sidewalk and make it straight, they could fit the two new lanes on that ROW alone without encroaching on OTA ROW. There would be right fit on Pennsylvania in parts between Memorial and NW 122nd for six lanes, but any building demolitions are unlikely. Some parking lots might have to go. Buildings would be closer to the sidewalk than they are now giving the area a more urban feel. I’d prefer an extra car lane vs. bike lanes on Penn if push comes to shove.

At this point, if it were just the eastbound lanes that were widened, I’d be fine with too as I don’t think the westbound lanes will be getting as much traffic, though I could be wrong on that. For Memorial, in this scenario, if I were to get what I want, I’d remove the 4th lane after Western and drop it back to 3 lanes in each direction which I think the road should be anyways.

d-usa
01-22-2019, 10:07 AM
So if we take the Portland IKEA store, and place it in the "large retailer" area of the master plan, we get this:

https://i.imgur.com/fe5E7sO.png

Put the parking to the north, which should be plenty of room (even more if they would put it on top of parking like in Portland, which I wouldn't expect). So to me it looks like it really wouldn't change the master plan all that much, other than putting one really large retailer in the area marked for two slightly smaller "large retailer".

Alternatively I could see them place it on Highland Avenue near Walmart.

mgharfeh
03-17-2019, 08:51 AM
Chisholm Creek updated their site plans with more detail than previous renderings. Sadly the area that said “large retailer” is gone and there’s no retail shell that appears ikea sized. I hope this isn’t bad news for Ikea still coming?

citywokchinesefood
03-17-2019, 09:00 PM
Chisholm Creek updated their site plans with more detail than previous renderings. Sadly the area that said “large retailer” is gone and there’s no retail shell that appears ikea sized. I hope this isn’t bad news for Ikea still coming?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.daytondailynews.com/business/ikea-pulls-back-expanions/B29e47NdMTauAVAojuuvpN/amp.html

It doesn’t look good.

jn1780
03-17-2019, 09:19 PM
That article was posted in June of last year, a couple of months before Pete posted that IKEA was looking. I wouldn't really look at the site plan for evidence of anything happening/not happening either because they are always changing the site plan which could be seen as a negative in some ways.

That being said I'm not expecting IKEA to come here, but wouldn't be surprised to see an announcement that they are coming to town.

Swake
03-17-2019, 10:41 PM
IKEA has canceled all new stores in the US except for small display stores in downtowns of huge cities. They are focusing on internet sales.

jbkrems
03-17-2019, 11:33 PM
Swake, any proof of that? How do you know Ikea cancelled their new stores?

stile99
03-18-2019, 06:00 AM
Swake, any proof of that? How do you know Ikea cancelled their new stores?

A quick Google search ("ikea cancels US stores") is discouraging. Around May/June 2018 they dialed back plans on a small number of stores. Then a few other sites picked up word and there are articles from December 2018 talking about the "small stores in downtowns" idea.

I can find no evidence that IKEA has no plans to build anything but these trial concept stores, I can find no evidence that IKEA does have plans to build anything but these trial concept stores. It is entirely possible that the new trial concept is indeed the future. It is equally possible that it's simply a misunderstanding, and the trial concept is going to work in places such as Manhattan whereas a regular store never would.

So, to answer the question, no, there's no 'proof' of anything.

Pete
03-18-2019, 07:55 AM
I'll get an update soon but yes, IKEA came to town after that article and I know conversations have continued.

Swake
03-18-2019, 11:28 AM
A quick Google search ("ikea cancels US stores") is discouraging. Around May/June 2018 they dialed back plans on a small number of stores. Then a few other sites picked up word and there are articles from December 2018 talking about the "small stores in downtowns" idea.

I can find no evidence that IKEA has no plans to build anything but these trial concept stores, I can find no evidence that IKEA does have plans to build anything but these trial concept stores. It is entirely possible that the new trial concept is indeed the future. It is equally possible that it's simply a misunderstanding, and the trial concept is going to work in places such as Manhattan whereas a regular store never would.

So, to answer the question, no, there's no 'proof' of anything.

Last May IKEA canceled every large store format location in the US where they had not yet purchased the land. The two sites (Marietta, GA and Dublin, CA) where they do have the land but had not started construction as of May 2018 still have not started construction.



IKEA said pulling out of the the Cary location was not about any deficiencies in the town, but was part of a corporate strategy to curtail some of its expansion projects and focus on other initiatives.

"Over the last year, IKEA U.S. has been on a journey to expand our multi-channel shopping experience with new retail locations, enhanced technology and greater accessibility to meet today’s customers where they are in today’s fast-changing retail environment," Ikea said in a statement to The News & Observer. "As part of this journey, we have challenged ourselves to re-evaluate some of our upcoming expansion projects. While this is an extremely difficult decision, we will not be moving forward with our plans to build a store in Cary, N.C. We appreciate the outpouring of support and excitement that our fans have expressed, and we are disappointed that we will not be able to physically join the vibrant Cary community. "

A spokeswoman said the company wasn't in a position to disclose whether other expansion projects will proceed or not, some of which are already under development. Last year, Ikea announced it would open stores in Nashville and in Glendale, Arizona, in 2020.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article211750844.html

And Nashville and Glendale ALSO were canceled, with the same quote:
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2018/05/25/ikea-cancels-plans-build-glendale-store/646669002/
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/05/31/antioch-nashville-plans-move-past-ikea-loss-business/655317002/

And stopped negotiations with a suburban Cleveland site:
https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2018/09/14/that-garfield-heights-ikea-aint-happening

jbkrems
03-18-2019, 01:05 PM
Pete, I will await your update on this issue. Hopefully they are still in negotiations to open in Oklahoma City near Costco.

jn1780
03-18-2019, 09:55 PM
Last May IKEA canceled every large store format location in the US where they had not yet purchased the land. The two sites (Marietta, GA and Dublin, CA) where they do have the land but had not started construction as of May 2018 still have not started construction.


https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article211750844.html

And Nashville and Glendale ALSO were canceled, with the same quote:
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2018/05/25/ikea-cancels-plans-build-glendale-store/646669002/
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/05/31/antioch-nashville-plans-move-past-ikea-loss-business/655317002/

And stopped negotiations with a suburban Cleveland site:
https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2018/09/14/that-garfield-heights-ikea-aint-happening

Yea, doesn't look too promising no matter how you look at it. Actions speak louder than words. It wouldn't surprise me if they keep looking for prospects in the event they change their mind.

I posted an article about them laying off employees . Most just brushed it off as just something they were doing in Europe.

jedicurt
03-19-2019, 09:33 AM
i would just like to point out that Pete says the conversations with OKC took place after all of this... and that he would work to get an update. i will wait to think anything on this project till i hear back on what he finds.

Pete
03-19-2019, 09:45 AM
They were still in active negotiations a month ago and should have more soon.

And just to be clear, this was never a done deal for OKC. But they absolutely have been in the market and talking to property owners about opening a store here.

jedicurt
03-19-2019, 09:58 AM
They were still in active negotiations a month ago and should have more soon.

And just to be clear, this was never a done deal for OKC. But they absolutely have been in the market and talking to property owners about opening a store here.

thanks Pete. good to hear it was at least still being discussed just a month ago

mgharfeh
03-19-2019, 10:00 AM
They were still in active negotiations a month ago and should have more soon.

And just to be clear, this was never a done deal for OKC. But they absolutely have been in the market and talking to property owners about opening a store here.

In Pete we trust

HOT ROD
03-19-2019, 03:40 PM
if Memphis and Milwaukee can have an IKEA, so can OKC.

If incentives help get them here (with the clause that the OKC store is the only in the state/region), then make it happen.

TheirTheir
03-20-2019, 08:29 AM
I heard that at one point they were planning to build in Midwest City but Mathis Brothers caught wind and purchased the land out from under them. No clue to the validity of that info, however.

jn1780
03-20-2019, 10:58 AM
Its not about OKC being deserving of an IKEA or not. Things have changed. The stores they build in the future will probably be smaller.

Uptowner
03-21-2019, 05:06 AM
Yes, 4 lanes each way. There is more than enough room. Even if Chisholm Creek would remove that squiggly sidewalk and make it straight, they could fit the two new lanes on that ROW alone without encroaching on OTA ROW. There would be right fit on Pennsylvania in parts between Memorial and NW 122nd for six lanes, but any building demolitions are unlikely. Some parking lots might have to go. Buildings would be closer to the sidewalk than they are now giving the area a more urban feel. I’d prefer an extra car lane vs. bike lanes on Penn if push comes to shove.

At this point, if it were just the eastbound lanes that were widened, I’d be fine with too as I don’t think the westbound lanes will be getting as much traffic, though I could be wrong on that. For Memorial, in this scenario, if I were to get what I want, I’d remove the 4th lane after Western and drop it back to 3 lanes in each direction which I think the road should be anyways.

He’s right....OKC needs more lanes, were so spread out and hopelessly addicted to cars. The feet’s and wheels have no chance.

Uptowner
03-21-2019, 05:07 AM
Edit: double post. PS after witnessing OK’s allergy to anything but cars for all my life. I give up. Widen everything and let’s be Los Angeles...or hell, Phoenix,

Plutonic Panda
03-21-2019, 02:27 PM
Edit: double post. PS after witnessing OK’s allergy to anything but cars for all my life. I give up. Widen everything and let’s be Los Angeles...or hell, Phoenix,
Los Angeles has some of the least lane miles per person of any city so that comparison doesn’t make a lot of sense unless you are just looking at the number of lanes some freeways here have. Though this doesn’t have to be a one sided issue. Even out here they have declared war on cars and I suspect it won’t well for either party(those for or against cars). Infrastructure needs to be built to serve the people and those that drive should be supported just as much as those who want alternative transportation.

jonny d
03-21-2019, 02:32 PM
Los Angeles has some of the least lane miles per person of any city so that comparison doesn’t make a lot of sense unless you are just looking at the number of lanes some freeways here have. Though this doesn’t have to be a one sided issue. Even out here they have declared war on cars and I suspect it won’t well for either party(those for or against cars). Infrastructure needs to be built to serve the people and those that drive should be supported just as much as those who want alternative transportation.

And some of the worst traffic in the country. Because of not having enough lanes. So it is their fault. OKC needs more lanes to prevent the inevitable traffic buildup that will happen in this location.

jedicurt
03-21-2019, 02:41 PM
And some of the worst traffic in the country. Because of not having enough lanes. So it is their fault. OKC needs more lanes to prevent the inevitable traffic buildup that will happen in this location.

this has been proven wrong time and time again with study after study, stating that increased lanes just causes congestion to keep growing till traffic is just as bad. it's a matter of removing inefficiencies that have affects, not adding lanes.

but back to Ikea... i really hope to hear some good news from Pete soon

Plutonic Panda
03-21-2019, 02:47 PM
this has been proven wrong time and time again with study after study, stating that increased lanes just causes congestion to keep growing till traffic is just as bad. it's a matter of removing inefficiencies that have affects, not adding lanes.

but back to Ikea... i really hope to hear some good news from Pete soon
No it has not been proven time and time again that induced demand accounts for so much non existent traffic that would use a freeway should it be built or expanded. The “multiple studies”(of which I’ve read nearly every single one ever published) almost always point back to one flawed study done back in 90s.

Latent demand is more likely a key to factor in. Even though 405 Sepulveda had a trove of benefits the expansion offered but the new urbanism publications like Strongtowns and Streetsblog conveniently leave that part out along with a plethora of other variables which could explain traffic back ups.

Adding more lanes to reduce traffic is simple math. Though no one wants to use induced demand as a reason not to expand transit, only freeways would be the only thing in the world urbanism would try and tell not to expand because of how successful they are. But lets not worry about that.

Using induced demand as argument against road way expansion is basically the same thing as saying why should I eat if I know I’ll be hungry later.

Plutonic Panda
03-21-2019, 02:53 PM
Furthermore, roads follow demand. The proponents of the stalled IL 53 extension in Chicago thought the same thing that a freeway through there would cause sprawl and surprise suprise, the sprawl came anyways and thankfully IDOT kept the ROW so the road will likely still be built.

Going to war with car drivers is like biting the hand that feeds you. The suburbs are still the areas showing the strongest growth and even in BRIC countries car ownership is growing at a pretty significant pace. It will be soon when this road diet and streetcar fad ends and the country will be better because of it. It’s the literal definition if smoke and mirrors.

PS, most pro freeway advocates aren’t against mass transit; I know I’m not. I’m a daily cyclist and user of the red line in LA.

jedicurt
03-21-2019, 02:58 PM
Furthermore, roads follow demand. The proponents of the stalled IL 53 extension in Chicago thought the same thing that a freeway through there would cause sprawl and surprise suprise, the sprawl came anyways and thankfully IDOT kept the ROW so the road will likely still be built.

Going to war with car drivers is like biting the hand that feeds you. The suburbs are still the areas showing the strongest growth and even in BRIC countries car ownership is growing at a pretty significant pace. It will be soon when this road diet and streetcar fad ends and the country will be better because of it. It’s the literal definition if smoke and mirrors.

PS, most pro freeway advocates aren’t against mass transit; I know I’m not. I’m a daily cyclist and user of the red line in LA.

i'm also not anti-freeway... i just think we often build bigger and not smarter

Plutonic Panda
03-21-2019, 02:58 PM
And some of the worst traffic in the country. Because of not having enough lanes. So it is their fault. OKC needs more lanes to prevent the inevitable traffic buildup that will happen in this location.
This is true. Also something to note that many freeways were not built in LA, sadly. Should they have been built, freeways like the Beverly Hills freeway would have done wonders for traffic. But California is loosing out to Texas who will likely build their HSR and their dedication to expanding freeways shows. Regardless of how bad traffic may seem in Texas, its not the smallest candle to SoCals and anyone that thinks it does should come here and experience it. Mass transit does NOT solve traffic congestion and rarely even makes a dent in it.

Now we have Metros abandonment of the 710 gap connection through the San Gabriel Valley with some communities excited for improvements along arterial streets where much traffic already moves in excess of 60MPH(35 MPH posted speed limit) outside of peak hours. They are also dragging their feet with the 710 south expansion project. It will be nice when commuters start waking up and it seems they are beginning too.

Plutonic Panda
03-21-2019, 02:59 PM
i'm also not anti-freeway... i just think we often build bigger and not smarter
I do agree with this.

dankrutka
03-21-2019, 09:52 PM
And some of the worst traffic in the country. Because of not having enough lanes. So it is their fault. OKC needs more lanes to prevent the inevitable traffic buildup that will happen in this location.

Let me introduce you to: induced demand.

Plutonic Panda
03-21-2019, 10:26 PM
Correction


Let me introduce you to: latent demand.

And it’s no reason to not expand freeways.