We found out this afternoon that cable barriers will not stop semis from crossing the center median. I figured that. For those that didn't hear, a semi going southbound, crossed the center median, hit and went over the cable barriers, and hit a car head on. The driver was instantly killed. Another vehicle hit the back of the truck in a chain reaction. That driver was in critical condition. This was just north of 122nd St.

Amazingly, that's a straight segment of the Parkway. I'm not sure how the guy crossed the median. He must not have been paying attention, or he must've passed out or something. Anyways, he'll probably face murder charges.

Going back to the other thread, I wonder if the guy was speeding. lol!

I knew those things were a waste of money and time and wouldn't work right. Still think its better to have the concrete barriers in the middle.

I knew those things were a waste of money and time and wouldn't work right. Still think its better to have the concrete barriers in the middle.

Yup, I agree. I think they were trying to go cheap, and while it has saved some lives, it's proven once again, it isn't completely functional.

Nope, I remeber when that gas tanker wreck on 35 in moore, it had hit the concrete barriers pushed them a little but kept him in his side of 35, had he crossed over would have been worse.

If the cable barriers won't stop semis from crossing over, what are they worth? We're spending tons of money right now installing them on I-35 down in Norman. Sure, most of the traffic on the Hefner Parkway is light-weight vehicle traffic and not semis, but I-35 is a different story. I imagine we may have similar failures on I-35, but maybe moreso since more semis travel that route.

They will find out the hard way and sowill someones loved ones when a semi crosses over and hits someone head on, with something like that the chances of surviveing at very slim.

I don't believe I've ever seen a semi cross a concrete barrier. I've seen enough of them almost go over a bridge at the Ft. Smith junction, but the barriers always stopped them.
Same thing in an accident awhile back at 39th St. and I-44 west bound.

I don't think you can expect a series of cables on flimsy polls to stop a semi.

I think after this incident, we need to have an investigation into whether the cable barriers should remain in use. As I said, if they can't stop a semi, we might need to consider something else. I'd rather spend the money on a concrete barrier if it's going to work, then waste the money on a flimsy maitenance-headache cable barrier system that fails.

I think after this incident, we need to have an investigation into whether the cable barriers should remain in use. As I said, if they can't stop a semi, we might need to consider something else. I'd rather spend the money on a concrete barrier if it's going to work, then waste the money on a flimsy maitenance-headache cable barrier system that fails.

You got my vote.

I'm not sure how you are justifying the expense here? I mean, it is a roadway, there is an inherent danger to driving. People will die on the road.

Hefner Expressway is how many years old? 20? How many deaths have occured as a result of people crossing the median on that particular road with the current Euro-style system in place? One?

If we're to spend millions on our roads, I can think of many MUCH more deserving places to spend the money.

Hefner Expressway is not an interstate. It doesn't carry a lot of semi traffic. I do understand the need for such barriers on major interstates, but not necessarily Hefner Expressway.

Why do folks always have to overreact to whatever is on the news? People die on the highway all the time. I'm not even sure why this is newsworthy.

The cable barriers have done a nice job so far and saved countless lives.

Getting behind the wheel, there is always the chance of a fatality.

I'm not sure how you are justifying the expense here? I mean, it is a roadway, there is an inherent danger to driving. People will die on the road.

Hefner Expressway is how many years old? 20? How many deaths have occured as a result of people crossing the median on that particular road with the current Euro-style system in place? One?

If we're to spend millions on our roads, I can think of many MUCH more deserving places to spend the money.

Hefner Expressway is not an interstate. It doesn't carry a lot of semi traffic. I do understand the need for such barriers on major interstates, but not necessarily Hefner Expressway.

Why do folks always have to overreact to whatever is on the news? People die on the highway all the time. I'm not even sure why this is newsworthy.

The point I was trying to make is they're now spending loads of our tax dollars on the same cable barrier system on I-35, an interstate where there are far more semis than on the parkway. On I-35, if the cable barrier won't stop these semis from crossing over, what good are they worth?

One of our ODOT officials made this statement:


Emamian, a Transportation Department engineer who designed the cable barriers, said no median barrier can stop a truck from crossing into oncoming traffic.


"None of the barriers are designed for semis," he said. "All the barriers are designed for cars."

But Emamian is confident the cable barrier -- the first designed and installed in the United States -- is safer than the traditional guardrail and concrete barriers.

The impact of a car hitting the concrete barrier will be transferred to the driver, Emamian said.

If a car hits a concrete barrier, it will most likely bounce back into traffic, causing a second accident.

"It's like hitting a brick wall," he said.
When a car hits a cable barrier, the cable transfers a lot of the energy, he said.

I completely disagree with this guy. Concrete barriers do prevent major accidents. A head on collision is much worse than the truck being thrown back into traffic. That would be a broadside accident, or at worst, a rear end accident. A head on accident multiplies the force by two.

Also, he states that concrete barriers don't stop semis. Again, I disagree. I've never seen a semi go off a bridge on the Ft. Smith junction, although I've seen many semis hit the concrete wall. His first statement is wrong.

The point I was trying to make is they're now spending loads of our tax dollars on the same cable barrier system on I-35, an interstate where there are far more semis than on the parkway. On I-35, if the cable barrier won't stop these semis from crossing over, what good are they worth?

My guess is that they're cheaper than concrete barriers. They're also probably better than nothing. Building concrete barriers along the entire median of I-35 is cost prohibitive. When you've only had ONE death in the history of a safety device from it failing in this state, that's hardly a call to spend millions and millions to make sure it doesn't happen again within the next 10 or so years.

Driving is a risky business. To some extent, you take your life into your own hands when you get behind the wheel. The trucking company likely will end up paying a good sum of money to the family of the deceased. That is their incentive to make sure their trucks don't cross the median.

When you've only had ONE death in the history of a safety device from it failing in this state, that's hardly a call to spend millions and millions to make sure it doesn't happen again within the next 10 or so years.

It's extremely tough to use the results from the Hefner Parkway and extrapolate them to other interstates, when the Hefner Parkway has very little semi traffic.

Maybe before the cable barriers were installed, the state should've tested them with better controlled tests. How about setting up a test strip somewhere and having semis run into it at all angles and speeds to see the success of the barrier at stopping semi cross overs. An even better test would've been to compare those results to results from other types of barrier systems. Then from those results, make a decision on where to spend the money.

I do agree that the cable barrier is better than nothing, but still if we're going to shell out that kind of money, I'd rather spend it on something that works, even if it's going to cost a little more.

I find it interesting that the state built a concrete wall along the entire stretch of the new Broadway Extension. Thus far, there have been absolutely no crossover accidents there. And the area north of 63rd St. was becoming a common place for crossovers. I lost a dea friend from high school in a crossover accident at that location.

I disagree that the cables are a failure. As someone from ODOT said, even concrete barriers are not guaranteed to stop a semi. You have to rely on drivers paying attention to some extent, and as was mentioned earlier, people will die on the highway, its a risk you take. With them saying that they KNOW of 400 hits on the cable barriers, how many occurred that they didn't know about, I'd say that they have done at least some good. You definately cannot say they are totally useless.

Patrick, do you think that the state really didn't have any data on the efficacy of cable barrier systems? You seem to think that since the state did not conduct the research that no research has ever happened. I don't know of any, but I would be highly doubtful that ODOT or any conscientious highway builder would install a safety system that was untested.

I'm sure there is a great deal of data available on the efficacy of the cable barrier systems in the form of studies and real-world results. Such tests, on the states part would be unnecessary, of questionable worth, and probably extremely expensive.

I'm not sure that millions of dollars spent on concrete barriers is worth the remote possibility of one life saved every twenty or so years. There's also no indication at all that concrete barriers would have stopped this particular semi which seems to be assumed in this thread. The Broadway Extension is a fairly similar to Hefner Expressway in that truck traffic is very light -- probably lighter than Hefner since Hefner Expressway is also a state highway which is probably the best route to Enid from OKC.

We can't make the roads 100% safe, that's an unreasonable expectation. The best that can be done is that our highway builders allocate their resources in a manner to ensure that it will do the best for the most people.

Concrete barriers are much more expensive than the wire types. Therefore, I'd wager that say 200 miles of wire barriers will save more lives than 50 miles of concrete (or whatever the actual cost difference is). With unlimited money, I'd say install concrete barriers everywhere. Absent that, however, I'd say that road builders should try to protect as many people as possible using their limited resources.

I disagree that the cables are a failure. As someone from ODOT said, even concrete barriers are not guaranteed to stop a semi. You have to rely on drivers paying attention to some extent, and as was mentioned earlier, people will die on the highway, its a risk you take. With them saying that they KNOW of 400 hits on the cable barriers, how many occurred that they didn't know about, I'd say that they have done at least some good. You definately cannot say they are totally useless.

I agree that the cable barrier hasn't been a failure. Stopping over 400 cars from crossing is success in and by itself.

I'm not sure I agree with the statement the guy from ODOT told The Oklahoman. The guy making the statement was the engineer in charge of installing the cable barrier system to begin with. Of course he's going to defend it.

Midtowner, I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm just trying to ride the other side of the fence, so to speak. I think both sides obviously have a decent argument.

Would a concrete barrier have saved a life yesterday? I'd venture to say yes.

Have the cable barriers been successful? I'd say yes as well.

Problem with the cable barriers isn't that they didn't work, it's more that the large truck took so many supports of the barrier out that there was nothing left to hold it up.

Would a concrete barrier have stood the test? Well, it's debatable, but I've never seen one fail yet.

But, as has already been mentioned, if cost is an issue, 200 miles of cable barriers saves more lives than 50 miles of concrete barriers. Much of the time, it's cars crossing the median.

I don't know Patrick, I'm almost thinking that if this guy fell asleep ( my guess) and hit a concrete barrier he might have overcorrected and jackknifed or bounced onto carloads of people and killed all of them.. or caused a chain reaction - any way you look at it, semi's are so dangerous.. remember the commercials for an SUV ( a bucking bronco) just think what a semi would be depicted as... a rabid wooly mammoth or worse.

The cable barrier system is a proven concept used internationally (and, unless I'm mistaken, started in Germany....please correct if that's wrong) that is not rendered ineffective due to a single tragedy.

One of the most gruesome accidents I ever had the misfortune of seeing after-the-fact was in Dallas along I-635, when a semi lost control, *climbed the center concrete median*, and plowed into heaven-only-knows how many other cars. It was absolutely ghastly, and I never heard how many fatalities (if any) were involved.

The point is that the median barriers are designed to stop the most probable type of vehicle loss-of-control incident, and that's decidedly not a semi driver falling asleep (or whatever) at the wheel.

On the other side, from personal experience I can tell you that I would prefer the railing system. About 10 years ago, I was traveling home from work westbound on I-240 in the middle lane, just past the Shields overpass. An idiot woman ahead and to my right was involved in an obscene-gesture war with the driver of the car ahead of her, and she chose that moment to show him what kind of a driver-man she was by cutting in front of me and running me off the road.

I started fishtailing violently, but each swing drew me closer to the concrete center median. After several swings, I was perhaps five seconds from fully recovering from the swing, when *bam*, I hit the concrete wall and caromed like a billiard ball perpendicularly across *four lanes* of high-speed, rush-hour traffic plus an exit ramp. I plowed head-first into *another* concrete barrier on the other side.

It was a miracle I walked away without a scratch.

The end result? My brand new (well, eight-month-old) car, with not even 9K miles on it, was a totalled, heaping pile of trash on I-240. The idiot who ran me off the road had no insurance (geez, how typical), and my insurance company took the claim on subrogation and paid me out, then years later won an absentee judgment against her.

The point of all that nauseating detail is that if there's no concrete median there, but an implementation of the steel retaining cables, I believe I would not have bounced across the road, totalled a car, and cost my insurance co a tidy 5-figure sum. They'd have been repairing some body damage, to be sure, but not an entire car.

My example no more proves that cable barriers are perfect any more than one semi serves as a counterproof that they *don't* work. The point is that, based on a combination of personal experience and everything I've read and heard about them suggests they work precisely as advertised within the scope of the design and intent set out for them. To suggest they be discarded over a single incident would, in my opinion, be highly misguided.

-SoonerDave

It doesn't seem that Patrick really thinks that the concrete barriers should be replaced. I think he's just taking that argument as far as he thinks it can go.

It's a losing argument though to be sure :)

Midtowner, I do not agree with what you said about Patrick just taking that argument as far as he thinks it can go, but I will not elaborate.

Edited to clarify what I meant.

Thanks for editing that... now it's clear as mud :tweeted:

Last night, I completed the Oklahoma City citizens Police Academy (we graduate next Tuesday. Let me know if you want an invite and I will see what I can do). The discussion was "signal 30" which is OCPD code for a fatality collision. MSgt Mark Sexton, who is one of the investigators, spoke in depth about that collision.

Sgt Sexton said the barriers were first purchased in Great Britton, however, the new ones actually come from Texas (yuck). He said they need to investigate a great deal to see what happened, however, it looks like a fluke.

The barriers DO work. In fact, they have caused a major reduction in fatalities since they were installed. They do stop semi's. This incident? God only knows what happened. BTW. Only one person died.

Since everyone here was pro cable barrier, I was merely trying to get you to think outside the box for a minute...sometimes that requires taking the other side to force the issue.

Personally, I could care less what type of barrier is out there, as long as it's something that's somewhat effective.

And Midtowner, you are 100% correct. I don't think the "cable" barriers should be replaced. I was just taking that argument as far as I thought it could go.

I heard that the truck driver was eating, choked and passed out... and only one person dying is still pretty tragic for the family of that one person.

Not a day goes by that when I kiss my husband goodbye in the morning that I don't think, please come home safely.. driving is a risk no doubt about it.

When the cable system was originally installed,
the cost of concrete barriers along that stretch
of road was incredibly expensive because of the grass
median and the preparation that would have to be
undertaken to support concrete barriers. Even
in an application where there is a concrete median already,
the concrete barrier option is a little over 550,000.00 per mile
and in the case of Hefner Parkway, it was 800K per mile as I recall. At that time, the cable system came in at less than 165,000.00 per mile.

On a roadway that predated the Kilpatrick and was nearly entirely "non semi" traffic, it made a lot of sense back then...

From the construction of the roadway to the installation of the concrete barriers, there were a total of 78 fatalities I believe....from crossovers exlusively. In the 7 or so years since it's installation, there have been 1, with well over 300 people hitting the barrier.

I for one and glad they are there.....as to the guys who say we're "spending all this money" on cables and we could've had concrete.....all I can say is cut the check!

When the cable system was originally installed,
the cost of concrete barriers along that stretch
of road was incredibly expensive because of the grass
median and the preparation that would have to be
undertaken to support concrete barriers. Even
in an application where there is a concrete median already,
the concrete barrier option is a little over 550,000.00 per mile
and in the case of Hefner Parkway, it was 800K per mile as I recall. At that time, the cable system came in at less than 165,000.00 per mile.

On a roadway that predated the Kilpatrick and was nearly entirely "non semi" traffic, it made a lot of sense back then...

From the construction of the roadway to the installation of the concrete barriers, there were a total of 78 fatalities I believe....from crossovers exlusively. In the 7 or so years since it's installation, there have been 1, with well over 300 people hitting the barrier.

I for one and glad they are there.....as to the guys who say we're "spending all this money" on cables and we could've had concrete.....all I can say is cut the check!
They have had more than 400 hits on the cables which is way too many. Why so many hits? Because drivers will not slow down, and many are driving wrecklessly, which is causing them to lose control of their vehicles. Speed, inattention, and stupidity....these are ingredients for a tragic accident.

I am glad the the barriers are in place, but where are the OKC police at? I have driven the Hefner Speedway numerous times, and have never seen an officer running radar or just driving the speedway. Since we have a tremendous lack of law enforcement on the highway, then the traffic accidents keep climbing. As long as the police do not enforce the speed limit, there will continuously be accidents, because some drivers feel they are indestructable.

I think the barriers do serve a purpose, but if everyone obeyed the speed limit and didn't drive like maniacs, then we would not need them. The fact is, after a traffic fatality, there is more police presence for a couple of weeks...and then they are gone again.

On a roadway that predated the Kilpatrick

That is actually incorrect. The Kilpatrick Turnpike opened in September 1991. The Lake Hefner Parkway opened in May 1992.

There is actually an alternative to both permanent concrete barriers and cable barriers. I noticed since moving to Houston, Texas, that the concrete barriers used on Interstate 45 are concrete barrier blocks that are bolted together with a metal plate. It is obvious that many trucks and cars have hit these barriers. I noticed many spots along this barrier are buckled from impact, but only by inches. Could this be a cheaper alternative? May not look as pretty, but it gets the job done.

Another wish I have for ODOT for Oklahoma City and Tulsa is to discontinue marking the highways with paint strips and begin using raised markers, such as what's used here in Houston. Each lane on the interstate AND feeder road is marked by reflectors, then where a paint strip is normally placed there are four white round raised markers. It makes driving in the rain much easier, and reduces lane drifting.

BTW. Only one person died.

I do not find that acceptable, and neither should anyone. One death is one too many. Sure, more could have died. But I prefer ZERO fatalities.

Okay thread cops go ahead and shoot me because I did not read all the threads.

Someone may have said this already but I am going to repeat it anyway.

LHP was never intended to be like I-35. It was built to alleviate congestion off other roads and create a new north/south route through the city.

LHP's main purpose is for commuter traffic to and from the north end of the city.

Eighteen Wheelers were never in the equation when it came to designing the road. All the new development along Memorial has created a drastic increase in 18 Wheeler traffic. Back when the cables were installed maybe 10-15 trucks a day traveled LHP. Now with the all the new big box stores and restaurants on Memorial there are probably more like 50-100 a day traveling LHP.

I think it is funny how we blame roads, vehicles and barriers for this accident. Cable barrier or 100ft brickwall with flashing neon lights and NASCAR track bumpers this person should have been driving and doing nothing else.

This person was driving 20 tons of steel, aluminum, fiberglass and plastic down the road. He should have focused on driving instead eating.

The main problem with LHP is the drivers that drive it everyday. Every morning I see people driving like its lap 499 of a NASCAR race. Then you have the people who are doing everything but driving. Please would you talk on your cell phone, put on make up, eat, read, or tune a radio while running a chainsaw.

No, of course you would not. So why do people do it when they are driving 1500-4000 pound vehicles at 65-90 MPH.

They have had more than 400 hits on the cables which is way too many. Why so many hits? Because drivers will not slow down, and many are driving wrecklessly, which is causing them to lose control of their vehicles. Speed, inattention, and stupidity....these are ingredients for a tragic accident.
\

Keith, high speeds are only accountable for 18% of accidents :)

I do not find that acceptable, and neither should anyone. One death is one too many. Sure, more could have died. But I prefer ZERO fatalities.

What's the alternative here?

Had concrete barriers been installed on 1/4 that amount of road, all things being equal, there were 400 hits, so we'd be talking about 100 dead instead of 1.

I'll take the one.

If we were to update the system now that would be taking even more cash away from Oklahoma's road repairs. Last time I checked they had passed the $10 billion dollar mark. People have died from chunks of concrete falling from OKC bridges(I remember two such incidents last year). In the end it would be nice to have stronger barriers, but for now it seems that the money is desperately need elsewhere.

If we were to update the system now that would be taking even more cash away from Oklahoma's road repairs. Last time I checked they had passed the $10 billion dollar mark. People have died from chunks of concrete falling from OKC bridges(I remember two such incidents last year). In the end it would be nice to have stronger barriers, but for now it seems that the money is desperately need elsewhere.

No one has died in Oklahoma City from falling concrete. Tulsa had a bridge that lost concrete on two occasions one fell and hit the ground, the other time the chunks damaged vehicles.

The bridge that lost chunks of concrete that killed someone one was on I-35 in southern Oklahoma.

You have fallen for that campaign commercial for the gas tax that would have supposedly "Repaired every bad road and bridge in Oklahoma." Oklahoma voters smelled the rat that was hiding in that special tax.

That tax if it would have been passed would have done nothing more than raise gas prices and provide job security for road and bridge building companies. You would every small town with a post office get new roads and bridges(regardless if they needed them or not) while Oklahoma City and Tulsa still ran on the same rough roads.

Oklahoma's problem is we have too many roads. We have overbuilt in areas that do need roads. The state of Oklahoma has been at mercy of the small town politician since statehood. We are finally getting politicians that see the potential in taking care of the largest cities first.

I'd perhaps be more supportive of these measures to give more money to transportation if ODOT were to set up a non-modifiable system by which needs for road improvements and maintenance were addressed on a subjective needs basis that takes into account things like the quality of existing roads/bridges, the current traffic load, etc. Thereby prioritizing improvements based on need instead of the seniority of the local delegation.

The problem with LHP is both speed and design. The LHP is not straight like I-35, I-40, etc. It curves around the lake, and most accidents do indeed occur on the curves. But the curves are very deceiving. I drive that stretch all the time, and the curves don't look as steep as they really are.

Midtowner, I do not agree with what you said about Patrick just taking that argument as far as he thinks it can go, but I will not elaborate.

Edited to clarify what I meant.

I'd love for you to elaborate. :Smiley259

I just wanted to put in a word for the EuroCable barriers. Those things have been an absolute smashing success. Oklahoma was the United States test bed for these systems and now they are in somewhere around 30 states. Their work is done not only through preventing crossovers (which they have done magnificently); but in their ability to take the hit, lessen the impact on the vehicles that hit them, absorb the impact and prevent bounce-backs onto the highway. You replace these with concrete and you have no scientifically designed system of impact absorption and its back to the days of hard impact that causes traumatic injury, flipping, flyovers into oncoming traffic and quick return into the highway with small vehicles. The record of these cables versus concrete is balanced far on the side of the cables. There is no comparison. Were the cables barriers a match for a semi? No. Neither would concrete have been. Have they proven to be successful and prevented hundreds of accidents? An unqualified yes! These cables are a God-send.

Keith, high speeds are only accountable for 18% of accidents :)
So, I guess the other 82% is caused by wreckless driving and stupidity.

I'd love for you to elaborate. :Smiley259

No need to elaborate---all one has to do is read the first nine posts in this thread, and it will be obvious.

but if everyone obeyed the speed limit and didn't drive like maniacs

Yeah, but if you do that, you get crucified as noted by others in a different thread on such a topic...

-SoonerDave

If you drive down the Hefner Parkway, and pay close attention, especially during "rush hour" (Jeez! What an oxymoron) you will find most drivers crawl. Even during non peak driving times, they tend to crawl. The police are not going to pull you for doing 70. Why they will not pull you for driving too slow is anyones guess.

Many of these crackpots are yacking on their cellulars or looking at the car on the shoulder with a flat tire. It only takes one slowy to cause a multi mile road block. I have never seen a car driving the speed limit or above slow down traffic.

Carelessness caused that collision. Not fast drivers. The driver should have and may well be charged with a crime... Just for stopping at McDonalds.

No need to elaborate---all one has to do is read the first nine posts in this thread, and it will be obvious.

Sorry you feel that way about dirtrider. I think he's one heck of a nice guy. And I've met him in person, so I can backup my statements with firsthand evidence. :respect:

On a more serious note, I think it's time to forget past issues and move on. The continued indirect jabs are unncessary.