My tax dollars paid for the land on which Lower Bricktown now sits. My tax dollars paid for Bass Pro Shops. I think I have the right to complain about the development that's taking place south of Reno. Where's the unique retail we were promised? Where the bricks? Lower Bricktown is a laughing stock among out of towners. Who is responsible for this mess?

I am tired of the "I paid tax dollars, so I get to..." argument, but nevertheless I agree. We've been here before:

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/5748-randy-hogan-joke.html?highlight=surface+Bricktown

I don't think Lower Bricktown is that bad. It's not very downtowny, but it still is a unique place in OKC. But to your point, I'm ambivalent: all that free parking spoils you, but at the same time, everytime I visit LB, I wish I could see those "stairs that go up to nowhere" actually lead to something.

I don't see how it's unique. The movie theater doesn't look much different from Tinsletown. The Sonic Building looks like any office building in the suburbs. The Residence Inn will look like any hotel in the suburbs. Go check out Amerisuites on Memorial Rd. Bass Pro looks like a Wal-Mart. Huge sea of parking. Must I go on?

This is downtown people. Not Edmond.

I can see where you're coming from, Survey. Taxpayers purchased that land, and yet it's not what many expected. A 16 screen movie theater and a large box retailer belongs outside of downtown. Plus, why should people like Sonic benefit from land that was purchased by the tax payer.

I'm sure that Sonic paid the expenses of constructing their building, and they either lease or have bought the pad site that their office buiding is built on.

I agree. "Unique" is the last word I would attach to lower bricktown. I know it has been run into the ground, but it was a complete waste of tax payer money. I think tax payer assistance can be somewhat justified if it results in landmark type status or brings something new to the market. LB has done neither of these things.

I agree. "Unique" is the last word I would attach to lower bricktown. I know it has been run into the ground, but it was a complete waste of tax payer money. I think tax payer assistance can be somewhat justified if it results in landmark type status or brings something new to the market. LB has done neither of these things.

LB may not be a landmark, but is a unique place -- in OKC. Is there another place in the city where you can watch a movie, walk alongside a canal, sit down at a Sonic, enjoy a fountain, and worship Toby Keith, shop for boats, all in one location? By themselves, they are not unique, but together, it's a singular place. As we've said before, the architecture is unremarkable, and it's not urban, but it's a place. And I still think it's made downtown more accessible to suburbanites who otherwise would be at a strip mall.

I'm sure that Sonic paid the expenses of constructing their building, and they either lease or have bought the pad site that their office buiding is built on.

Yeah, but the profits from the sale are going to Randy Hogan, not the city, who gave him the land for free in exchange for money for canal improvements.

What’s so bad about lower bricktown...do some people not have enough to gripe about? I live downtown, I hang out in LB a lot. I go to the movies there, I enjoy sitting on the patio at Toby Keiths and drinking a beer. When I moved here 4 years ago there was nothing there, and I'm grateful they have built a nice place to hang out. I'd rather pay tax money for that, than some of the other crap our government has us pay taxes for. So what it doesn’t look exactly like Bricktown? The only place I think doesn’t belong, and wont stay there long is Fuegos. As if Bricktown doesn’t have enough Mexican restaurants. I've been saying this a while, what bricktown needs is a cool Irish bar.

I think we all toss around the word, "unique," in way too loose a fashion. "Unique," means one-of-a-kind, without equal, unparalleled. In fact, there is a very good discussion about the use of the word under the heading "Usage Notes" here:
http://www.answers.com/unique&r=67

Just a thought. I see this word misused a lot, not just here, but everywhere. I'm not trying to play "language police" here, but words really do have certain meanings and this is one that truly is thrown around with indifference to its real meaning.

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What’s so bad about lower bricktown...do some people not have enough to gripe about? I live downtown, I hang out in LB a lot. I go to the movies there, I enjoy sitting on the patio at Toby Keiths and drinking a beer. When I moved here 4 years ago there was nothing there, and I'm grateful they have built a nice place to hang out. I'd rather pay tax money for that, than some of the other crap our government has us pay taxes for. So what it doesn’t look exactly like Bricktown? The only place I think doesn’t belong, and wont stay there long is Fuegos. As if Bricktown doesn’t have enough Mexican restaurants. I've been saying this a while, what bricktown needs is a cool Irish bar.

I can tell you've only been in OKC for 4 years, as it's apparent that you may not be aware of why we have what we do today, instead of what could've been far superior.

Back in the early 90's when Randy Hogan was selected to develop what is know today as Lower Bricktown, there were 2 other developers who submitted proposals to develop the property: Sooner Investments and Bricktown 2000 (a team led by Moshe Tal and nationally known developer, David Cordish).

Bricktown 2000 had the most ambitious plan, calling for a world class 3 level shopping center with upscale stores rivaling the Galleria in Dallas, Cordish secured the right to build an ESPN Zone and a Hard Rock Cafe on the west and east sides of the canal just south of Reno, he had secured Marrriott Hotels to build a 15-20+ story convention type hotel which would've been similar to the Marriott RiverCenter in San Antonio, a world class Country Music complex that would've made Toby Keith's look sick, a state of the art International Gymnastics Hall of Fame, an Arts and Crafts village along the south canal, a new downtown office tower 20 stories or better, a parking garage under a 14 screen Sony Screens movie theater, etc.

Most people thought Bricktown 2000 was a shoe in, especially with the experience of David Cordish on board. Tal had letters of financial backing from Midfirst Bank and Bank One, at the time, along with what he claimed were foreign investors, but that's really beside the point.

I saw the renderings of what they had planned, and if you saw them today, you'd probably cry knowing what ended up there.

Randy Hogan was chosen instead. Why? Because of the good ole boy network that exists within our city government. It was actually Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority that chose Hogan, and 2 members on the board were business partners with Hogan out on the East Wharf development at the time. The rest were close friends. The mayor of OKC at the time had used Randy Hogan's services numerous times, as they were both in the real estate business and were buddies.

We, the taxpayers of OKC, got screwed, and the city and state court system supported the fraud. Why? Tough to prove something like that in court.

Randy Hogan made numerous promises, and failed to deliver. What we have today, isn't even what he promised originally. After losing numerous contracts, or making false claims (whatever you'd like to believe) he had to quickly throw together a development.

Randy made the promise when he was selected that he had the backing of the Fortune 500 Torchmark corporation, and that he could finance "every square inch of the project." Yet, he came running to the city asking them for money to finance Bass Pro Shops. What?

Urban Renewal gave him many many deadlines, and extensions. I thought the extensions would never stop. It was obvious they were trying to help out a friend in the business.

But, this is the history of Urban Renewal. Just look at the recent issue with The Hill development. Anthony McDermid and company was the obvious best choice for the property. Yet, we were al surprised when Stanton L. Young voted for his buddy over at the Reserch Park to develop The Hill.

The good ole boy network still exists in our government today. It's gotten better since Mick Cornett took office, but even of late it's been obvious that he's willing to play politics as well. Afterall, why else do you think he endorsed Ernest Istook before he ever announced whether he was running for District 5?

What’s so bad about lower bricktown...do some people not have enough to gripe about? I live downtown, I hang out in LB a lot. I go to the movies there, I enjoy sitting on the patio at Toby Keiths and drinking a beer. When I moved here 4 years ago there was nothing there, and I'm grateful they have built a nice place to hang out. I'd rather pay tax money for that, than some of the other crap our government has us pay taxes for. So what it doesn’t look exactly like Bricktown? The only place I think doesn’t belong, and wont stay there long is Fuegos. As if Bricktown doesn’t have enough Mexican restaurants. I've been saying this a while, what bricktown needs is a cool Irish bar.

I think you make a good point that, for district residents, it does give them the same thing found in suburbia. But when I say "unique", I mean the websters #1 definition of "being the only one". There is nothing you can do or see there that you can't do in at least 2 other places in the city. Yes, the canal is a different deal, but, really, it's surrounded by a parking lot and doesn't feel much different than any cemented creek in the city right now.

I don't want to say the area doesn't have merit, but it offers nothing new to the city and, because of that, I don't see why the tax payers needed subsidized it. My inclination is that when they agreed to subsidize it, they thought it would bring something new and, at least to the city something unique.

Bricktown 2000 had the most ambitious plan, calling for a world class 3 level shopping center with upscale stores rivaling the Galleria in Dallas, Cordish secured the right to build an ESPN Zone and a Hard Rock Cafe on the west and east sides of the canal just south of Reno, he had secured Marrriott Hotels to build a 15-20+ story convention type hotel which would've been similar to the Marriott RiverCenter in San Antonio, a world class Country Music complex that would've made Toby Keith's look sick, a state of the art International Gymnastics Hall of Fame, an Arts and Crafts village along the south canal, a new downtown office tower 20 stories or better, a parking garage under a 14 screen Sony Screens movie theater, etc.

I am crying right now.

The Western Avenue district is unique. The Power Plant in Baltimore (a David Cordish development) is unique. Time Square is unique. The French Quarter in New Orleans is unique. Sad, but Old Town Wichita is unique. Brookside in Tulsa is unique. The Plaza in downtown Santa Fe is unique.

San Antonio Riverwalk used to be unique but residents will tell you now, that with the onslaught of chains, it isn't the same as it used to be. Still, I think the destination is unique to San Antonio. Obviously, no one has had success trying to copy it.

West End in Dallas is NOT unique.

[QUOTE=Patrick]
Bricktown 2000 had the most ambitious plan, calling for a world class 3 level shopping center with upscale stores rivaling the Galleria in Dallas, Cordish secured the right to build an ESPN Zone and a Hard Rock Cafe on the west and east sides of the canal just south of Reno, he had secured Marrriott Hotels to build a 15-20+ story convention type hotel which would've been similar to the Marriott RiverCenter in San Antonio, a world class Country Music complex that would've made Toby Keith's look sick, a state of the art International Gymnastics Hall of Fame, an Arts and Crafts village along the south canal, a new downtown office tower 20 stories or better, a parking garage under a 14 screen Sony Screens movie theater, etc.
[QUOTE]

ESPN Zone, Hard rock cafe? Big deal? We have those back home, those places aren’t thought of very well. I think the fact they are not in bricktown, makes bricktown unique! International Gymnastics Hall of Fame...darn, I'm really missing that. So things didn't go exactly as planned, do they ever? Yeah it might be cool to have a world class Country Music complex, but the Ford Center is right down the street, I see country concerts there all the time and that suits me just fine. Seriously, this is OKLAHOMA. Its not the thriving metropolis as some people believe. There are things I think bricktown needs, and I'd like to see downtown, maybe over time... But, What the developers have done, is made people like myself enjoy living downtown. My apartment complex is 90% of people my age, not from the state of Oklahoma, and they all enjoy bricktown and the convenience of everything. Its exciting, and it makes people like myself want to stay and not return to our native state or go to another location. Maybe the development of bricktown didn't turn out like it was originally planned...but what it has done is satisfy people like myself, and made us enjoy living here, thus pumping money to the economy, and possibly creating more growth in the future.

Okay, poor word choice. But you guys are preaching to the choir (as far as I am concerned). The fact that we have so much surface parking where there should be canal frontage just speaks to the fact that Bricktown real estate isn't as much in demand as some would like to think.

Downtown living spaces are so highly priced maybe because we have too many low- and non-earners (jailbirds and homeless), and DOKC needs to increase folks on the other end of the income range in order to up the median/mean to a magic number - $50K, perhaps. If businesses wanted to be there, they'd be there. Once we get to that magic number, the retail will hopefully follow.

Hogan is also a half-assed retail/entertainment developer, but we've said that for the illionth time already.

Okay, poor word choice. But you guys are preaching to the choir (as far as I am concerned). The fact that we have so much surface parking where there should be canal frontage just speaks to the fact that Bricktown real estate isn't as much in demand as some would like to think.

Downtown living spaces are so highly priced maybe because we have too many low- and non-earners (jailbirds and homeless), and DOKC needs to increase folks on the other end of the income range in order to up the median/mean to a magic number - $50K, perhaps. If businesses wanted to be there, they'd be there. Once we get to that magic number, the retail will hopefully follow.

Hogan is also a half-assed retail/entertainment developer, but we've said that for the illionth time already.


EXACTLY, attract more people living downtown, and the retail will come. Look, I know things didn't turn out as planned, but serriously, most of Bricktown IS unique. I hate to see people griping about it, and believe me I know you payed taxes on it, but like we all havent payed stupid taxes before! The bricktown area is one of the main reasons I live in this state, because its FUN and there is always something to do! I think if I would have moved any place else in Oklahoma City, I would have been hating life and I woulda been outta here a long time ago. Of course things could be better, but they could be worse to! Im thankful for what we have!

That's right, it didn't turnout as planned. Instead of a mixed development with urban density and structured parking, we have suburban sprawl with surface lots, not unlike any development you'd find in a suburban center.

What's even worse, is the unethical activity that's going on in our city government, and folks like yourself simply choosing to brush it under the rug, when we should all be appalled.

This is the reason things in this city never become first class. We're too willing to accept 2nd class, and we could careless what goes on behind the scenes in our city government.

If Bricktown takes on the path of Lower Bricktown, don't expect it to be an attraction in the near future. Just look what happened to the West End in Dallas.

If businesses wanted to be there, they'd be there.

Part of this you can blame on folks like Jim Brewer that are simply holding onto their properties until the right time comes to sell them. They have no interest in leasing their space.

EXACTLY, attract more people living downtown, and the retail will come.

I agree.


Look, I know things didn't turn out as planned, but serriously, most of Bricktown IS unique. I hate to see people griping about it, and believe me I know you payed taxes on it, but like we all havent payed stupid taxes before! The bricktown area is one of the main reasons I live in this state, because its FUN and there is always something to do! I think if I would have moved any place else in Oklahoma City, I would have been hating life and I woulda been outta here a long time ago. Of course things could be better, but they could be worse to! Im thankful for what we have!

I think the main concern most of us have at the present time is the corrupt activity that goes on daily in OCURA and city hall. This is the reason why downtown OKC isn't all it could be.

And if it wasn't for OCURA, we'd still have retail frontage today. OCURA destroyed that.
Personally, I think we need to disband OCURA all together. But that's for another topic.

Just looking at numbers, Hogan has invested a little over $90 million in Lower Bricktown, once the new condos are complete. This is pale in comparison to the $400 million Bricktown 2000 was going to invest, plus they were going to pay market value at the time for the property where Lower Bricktown now sits.

Why did we give Randy Hogan land for free? Heck, I want land for free.

Why did we give Bass Pro Shops money to build a building? But yet denied requests from Academy and other sporting good retailers?

What's even worse, is the unethical activity that's going on in our city government, and folks like yourself simply choosing to brush it under the rug, when we should all be appalled.


Like myself? Frankly, I think your in the minority as to being disapointed with bricktown. I have no problem with whats happend in bricktown, and I know at least 400 residents or so living downtown who like it, and invest their money into it every day, not to mention, theres about to be a lot more moving downtown that enjoy bricktown also. You can spend your whole life chasing tax dollars...not just in our local government, but in our state and US government as well. Our tax dollars all fly out the window. You spend your life griping about it, and I'll spend my life enjoying it. Have fun!

Part of this you can blame on folks like Jim Brewer that are simply holding onto their properties until the right time comes to sell them. They have no interest in leasing their space.

Yeah, it'd be interesting to know who Brewer and other Bricktown property owners have turned down over the years. But I can't imagine we'd be crying over them as much as with the Cordish proposal.

Like myself? I know at least 400 residents or so living downtown who like it, and invest their money into it every day, not to mention, theres about to be a lot more moving downtown that enjoy bricktown also.

But that doesn't mean they think it is everything they need or want.

Really, it seems to me everybody here agrees that what is there is better than nothing. However, most can agree that it could have been better, corruption in OCURA, City/County government and all of the Good Old Boy network is plenty, and excitement and disappointment runs hot and cold depending on the day and if we're presented with setbacks or positive developments. In other words, we're all really not that far apart in how we feel. The what ifs can drive you crazy and for good reason, yet the excitement of activity of any kind downtown brings excitement. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's a mixed bag. A lot like life itself.

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Really, it seems to me everybody here agrees that what is there is better than nothing. However, most can agree that it could have been better, corruption in OCURA, City/County government and all of the Good Old Boy network is plenty, and excitement and disappointment runs hot and cold depending on the day and if we're presented with setbacks or positive developments. In other words, we're all really not that far apart in how we feel. The what ifs can drive you crazy and for good reason, yet the excitement of activity of any kind downtown brings excitement. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's a mixed bag. A lot like life itself.

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I agree... but it seems like everything posted on the Bricktown section of OKCTalk is negative, except for the posts in the thread titled "In this thread, we say nice things about Bricktown". I know Bricktown could be better, but no matter if you like Bricktown or not, Bricktown has still done a lot for this state, including making myself and many other people stick around and pump money into the state. I've stated before, I live in Bricktown, and I enjoy it very much. When people say negative things about Bricktown, I'm going to defend it, because in essence, its my "backyard". Im done with this for tonight, as I'm going to walk across the street, grab a bite to eat and a beer, and enjoy the rest of the night at one of the great bars and check out the hot women:)

I happen to love the ideas and the way Bricktown is shaping up. I love the way their is the open parking and all the new development and stores that come on line as the canal grows up. Its still so young and is still really coming into its own. Its not just about Bricktown, yet OKC as a whole. Does it make it better and an attraction to out of towners? Absolutely! Ever been to Riverwalk in San Antonio? Whats so great about that place? Yes, there are lots of shops and buildings and such there? Hmmmm, how long has it been there? How long has it had to mature and gain attractions? Could a move of Frontier City and White Water to the River all connecting improve the River/Canal areas? Absolutely! Options are unlimited with all the space still available. Its not going to be an overnight thing where this canal/Bricktown/OKC/River project is complete. Its something the CITY (All areas) has to grow into. Just stop and think, if you don't like the riverwalk don't go. But honestly tell me is there really any other places like the canal anywhere else in the state that has what Bricktown has now? Lets wait and see how it grows up, especially with the additions of the condos and such living spaces. Just wait, OKC is on an impressive growth. It just don't happen over night.

I think the main concern most of us have at the present time is the corrupt activity that goes on daily in OCURA and city hall. This is the reason why downtown OKC isn't all it could be.
Those are serious charges, Patrick, and I'm not saying that you are not right, I'm only saying that I'm unaware. But, if you're serious, and want to be taken seriously, it might be good for you to:

(1) Define what you mean by "corrupt activity". Most of us probably think of that phrase as connoting something illegal. If you don't mean "illegal", you might think about phrasing your criticisms in such regards differently.

(2) If you DO mean "corrupt activity = illegal", then you need to take care to be prepared to back up your statements if someone is of a mind to litigate with you vis a vis defamation litigation. Chose your words carefully, and be prepared to back them up, if that should become necessary. I say this as a friend, not as a critic.

Personally, I have no clue about the truth of your comment either as (1) a metaphor or (2) in a way much more serious. But, if the latter is true, it certainly needs to be the subject of a grand jury or other legal inquiry.

I think Patrick means corrupt business practices.

Unfair advantages given to those close the the G.O.B. network, without letting the competition have the same, etc.

But, if the latter is true, it certainly needs to be the subject of a grand jury or other legal inquiry.

Okay. Katy bar the door. This might be long, but it needs to be said.

Doug, you make good points. However, to be honest, I wouldn't trust this county DA office with a Grand Jury to arrive at anything other than rubber-stamping the GOBN (good old boy network.) They are a government entity and I can call "corrupt" without fear of litigation, and the DA's office in Oklahoma County is corrupt to the core and has been for years. That Bob Macy is not in prison is a travesty, the Joyce Gilchrist matter still floats around while nothing is being done. Mark Fuhrman was absolutely right in his book about Oklahoma County and Bob Macy (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0641651260) - corrupt. The Dallas Observer was right about Oklahoma County's DA office - corrupt. If you want a good read, check out "Oklahoma Railroad" from the Dallas Observer (http://www.dallasobserver.com/Issues/2005-07-21/news/feature.html). It's ten pages of truth that we'll never hear about from our local media. Not until Hell freezes over.

As for OCURA, it is corrupt. They are bought and paid for. Anybody wanting to do business within their domain must curry favor with these people. That is wrong. It invites corruption. A government agency that operates the way they do with such blatant cronyism can be called nothing BUT corrupt. Not all the members, of course, but most of us know who the dirty ones are and are not. I fear no litigation from attacking a taxpayer-funded agency. OCURA is Chicago-style corruption and I'm not afraid to say it. It's much like saying, "Congress is full of crooks." Which Congressman is going to sue for such a statement? Well, OCURA, as a whole, has proven to be corrupt and the Authority should be shut down and something else, with more oversight, put in its place. Don't hold your breath.

Secrecy is their friend. Public ignorance is their friend. Where's the OCURA website? Where are their meeting times and agendas and minutes online? Hell, where are even the members of OCURA's board listed? Oh, I'm sure they are somewhere, but the lack of a website and their penchant for secrecy is ridiculous. Try even Googling "Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority" and see what information you get straight from the horses mouth. The answer: you won't. It's all third-party references. Getting information from that bunch is like pulling teeth, but, what would you expect? When the lights come on - the roaches scatter. They want to do their dirty work as quietly as possible. It's the nature of the beast.

Doug, I love 'ya brother, you are one of the greatest assets of this forum, but I agree with Patrick about this scandalous den of thieves known as OCURA.

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Doug, I love 'ya brother, you are one of the greatest assets of this forum, but I agree with Patrick about this scandalous den of thieves known as OCURA.

I'm not disagreeing, I just don't know. As I said,
Personally, I have no clue about the truth of your comment either as (1) a metaphor or (2) in a way much more serious. But, if the latter is true, it certainly needs to be the subject of a grand jury or other legal inquiry.
My principal concern wasn't the truth of the "corruption" one way or another but was instead intended to say to Patrick that great care should be used with such words for the reasons I said.

Thanks for the background. I'll check out your links later. In the meantime, I guess I'll stay behind the couch! :sofa:

It's too late to edit, but I linked to the wrong edition of the Mark Fuhrman book. The one with reviews, etc. at Amazon is:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C4STW0
The book is very good and most people around here (OKC) never even knew it was written!

I agree... but it seems like everything posted on the Bricktown section of OKCTalk is negative, except for the posts in the thread titled "In this thread, we say nice things about Bricktown". I know Bricktown could be better, but no matter if you like Bricktown or not, Bricktown has still done a lot for this state, including making myself and many other people stick around and pump money into the state. I've stated before, I live in Bricktown, and I enjoy it very much. When people say negative things about Bricktown, I'm going to defend it, because in essence, its my "backyard". Im done with this for tonight, as I'm going to walk across the street, grab a bite to eat and a beer, and enjoy the rest of the night at one of the great bars and check out the hot women:)

Again, the issue is not whether we like or dislike Bricktown. I like Bricktown. I never said I didn't like Bricktown. But, at the same time I don't approve of the illegal business practices that are going on, mostly within the walls of OCURA, that hold us back as a city. And yes, even though Bricktown is nice, OCURA has held it back, just as they held back the Skirvin for so many years.

If it wasn't for OCURA we'd have a lot nicer downtown right now. Problem is, developers don't want to deal with OCURA. Try dealing with OCURA....it's a huge headache. Most developers don't even bother with downtown because of all of the obstacles OCURA putsd up, most of the obstacles being being unfair to anyone that isn't part of their GOB network.

I think Patrick means corrupt business practices.

Unfair advantages given to those close the the G.O.B. network, without letting the competition have the same, etc.

Exactly.

(2) If you DO mean "corrupt activity = illegal", then you need to take care to be prepared to back up your statements if someone is of a mind to litigate with you vis a vis defamation litigation. Chose your words carefully, and be prepared to back them up, if that should become necessary. I say this as a friend, not as a critic.

I do question the legality of members of OCURA selecting Hogan to develop Lower Bricktown when a few of them were his very own business partners in the East Wharf development. Fred Hall did excuse himself from voting, but he influenced the rest of the pack.

Unfortunately, it was extremely difficult to prove in this case. Why? Moshe Tal's tactics were mostly to blame. Plus, proving that a good ole boy network exists is extremely difficult in a court of law, especially when the court of law sides with the good ole boy network before the case is ever held.

I'll never forget the excuse OCURA used for selecting Hogan over BT2000......they stated that BT2000's plan was too ambitious. What?

Anyways, I realize all of this is in the past, but to some degree I agree with Moshe. If we don't stop this activity, who will? We're the citizens. We put these folks in office.

Again, the issue is not whether we like or dislike Bricktown. I like Bricktown. I never said I didn't like Bricktown. But, at the same time I don't approve of the illegal business practices that are going on, mostly within the walls of OCURA, that hold us back as a city. And yes, even though Bricktown is nice, OCURA has held it back, just as they held back the Skirvin for so many years.

If it wasn't for OCURA we'd have a lot nicer downtown right now. Problem is, developers don't want to deal with OCURA. Try dealing with OCURA....it's a huge headache. Most developers don't even bother with downtown because of all of the obstacles OCURA putsd up, most of the obstacles being being unfair to anyone that isn't part of their GOB network.


I know what your saying is correct, and its definatly not right the way things have been delt with under the table. I also know things might not be as nice as they could be, but I am still happy with the product, and I think Bricktown has done wonders for the city. Heres an example...3 of my best frieds from Florida are all coming in town in a couple weeks. We all usually go on a trip every summer, and instead of planning on going anywhere else, they all wanted to come here to OKC because they liked it so much when they were here a couple years ago. Not much of a trip for me, but they all love Bricktown and the convienence of everything. When they were here last time, there was no movie theatre, no toby keiths, and I'm sure they will enjoy it even more now. Also, I want you to know I am glad we have people like you who will call a foul when they see one, it can only help to improve what I believe is already a great entertainment district

Okay. Katy bar the door. This might be long, but it needs to be said.

Doug, you make good points. However, to be honest, I wouldn't trust this county DA office with a Grand Jury to arrive at anything other than rubber-stamping the GOBN (good old boy network.) They are a government entity and I can call "corrupt" without fear of litigation, and the DA's office in Oklahoma County is corrupt to the core and has been for years. That Bob Macy is not in prison is a travesty, the Joyce Gilchrist matter still floats around while nothing is being done. Mark Fuhrman was absolutely right in his book about Oklahoma County and Bob Macy (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0641651260) - corrupt. The Dallas Observer was right about Oklahoma County's DA office - corrupt. If you want a good read, check out "Oklahoma Railroad" from the Dallas Observer (http://www.dallasobserver.com/Issues/2005-07-21/news/feature.html). It's ten pages of truth that we'll never hear about from our local media. Not until Hell freezes over.

As for OCURA, it is corrupt. They are bought and paid for. Anybody wanting to do business within their domain must curry favor with these people. That is wrong. It invites corruption. A government agency that operates the way they do with such blatant cronyism can be called nothing BUT corrupt. Not all the members, of course, but most of us know who the dirty ones are and are not. I fear no litigation from attacking a taxpayer-funded agency. OCURA is Chicago-style corruption and I'm not afraid to say it. It's much like saying, "Congress is full of crooks." Which Congressman is going to sue for such a statement? Well, OCURA, as a whole, has proven to be corrupt and the Authority should be shut down and something else, with more oversight, put in its place. Don't hold your breath.

Secrecy is their friend. Public ignorance is their friend. Where's the OCURA website? Where are their meeting times and agendas and minutes online? Hell, where are even the members of OCURA's board listed? Oh, I'm sure they are somewhere, but the lack of a website and their penchant for secrecy is ridiculous. Try even Googling "Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority" and see what information you get straight from the horses mouth. The answer: you won't. It's all third-party references. Getting information from that bunch is like pulling teeth, but, what would you expect? When the lights come on - the roaches scatter. They want to do their dirty work as quietly as possible. It's the nature of the beast.

Doug, I love 'ya brother, you are one of the greatest assets of this forum, but I agree with Patrick about this scandalous den of thieves known as OCURA.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks writerranger.

I will add, I love Oklahoma City, Bricktown, etc. with all my heart. I've grown up here and love living here. That's the reason I want the corruption cleaned up in our city government. People called Moshe a fool. But, when you sit down and actually use intellectual common sense to try and understand where he was coming from, you'll see that he was right.

The sad part is that no one is willing to expose the good ole boy network. If you think The Oklahoman would step up to the plate to do that, you're dreaming. They side with the GOB. Afterall, they often benefit from it. Bass Pro is an example.

Moshe Tal stuck out like a sore thumb, because most people in this city would like to believe that the leaders the elect are honest folks. And most of them are. But, it's the select few that meet behind closed doors that ruin everything.

Personally, I think OCURA should be disbanded, and a new Citizens Oversight Board established, similar to the MAPS Oversight Board. Strangely, much of the time the MAPS Oversight Board butted heads with OCURA. Just ask Carl Sullivan. I think he'd agree with much of what writerranger and myself state here. Instead of city council putting people on this boad, I think the general public needs to vote on these folks. I tend to wonder if even that would work though, becuase the general public is pretty ignorant and would probably put the OCURA members back on the board, simply because of their name recognition

I know what your saying is correct, and its definatly not right the way things have been delt with under the table. I also know things might not be as nice as they could be, but I am still happy with the product, and I think Bricktown has done wonders for the city. Heres an example...3 of my best frieds from Florida are all coming in town in a couple weeks. We all usually go on a trip every summer, and instead of planning on going anywhere else, they all wanted to come here to OKC because they liked it so much when they were here a couple years ago. Not much of a trip for me, but they all love Bricktown and the convienence of everything. When they were here last time, there was no movie theatre, no toby keiths, and I'm sure they will enjoy it even more now. Also, I want you to know I am glad we have people like you who will call a foul when they see one, it can only help to improve what I believe is already a great entertainment district

I want you to know, I completely agree with you. I love Bricktown. I love going down there to catch a baseball game, and eat a nice meal at Zios on the canal.

I just wonder if the corrupt dealings will ever be exposed for what they are. Moshe Tal tried. Look where he got.

LOL! Just ask metro or MalibuSooner how hard it is to get minutes from an OCURA meeting, or even attend a meeting for that matter.

Just to show you the type of guy Kirk Humphreys was at the time......

David Cordish had an appointment scheduled to meet with him about BT2000's development proposal. While Cordish is in flight from Baltimore to OKC, Humphreys cancelled the appointment. And later, Humphreys tried to claim Cordish wasn't even tied to the project.

Whatever. I call the shots how they are.

My tax dollars paid for the land on which Lower Bricktown now sits. My tax dollars paid for Bass Pro Shops. I think I have the right to complain about the development that's taking place south of Reno. Where's the unique retail we were promised? Where the bricks? Lower Bricktown is a laughing stock among out of towners. Who is responsible for this mess?

What are you talking about? Lower Bricktown is great. I was so happy that Bass Pro Shops came to OKC i wrote this here letter to the mayor:

Mr. Mayor,

Thanks for bringing a Bass Pro Shop to the city. I have shopped at Bass Pro Shops for over twenty years, and I felt it was time Oklahoma City got itself one. They have so many great items and activities for children and older people alike.
There ain’t a better thing Bass Pro has to offer than the shooting range. At the range you git to shoot stuffed animals like coons, possums, and skunks. I remember the first day Bass Pro opened. Me and my two year old son, Andy, went to the shooting range. I even let him shoot. He could barely hold the gun, but he still managed to shoot a possum. He nailed that possum right between the eyes! I have to admit, the joy that came to Andy’s face when he got his first kill brought tears to my eyes. Every young boy needs to be exposed to guns at an early age in order to grow up and be a man.
My wife, Crystal, says that she loves to see me and Andy in plaid, so next week we did us some shopping at Bass Pro. They even have pretty clothes for women too. Another great thing about Bass Pro is when you are done shopping and your wife is not, you don’t have to beat her or yell at her to leave. You just can go look at hunting and fishing gear or the big fish tank full of beautiful fish like bass and catfish. We bought us some real nice clothes, camping gear, and fishing supplies.
The location of the Bass Pro Shop is great. When we was done shopping we just headed over to Toby Keith’s I Love This Bar and Grill in the truck. That restaurant is good. Where else in Oklahoma City can you git really good chicken fried steak, catfish sandwiches, or tasty freedom fries?
I really feel that the Bass Pro Shop makes our city look good. Thanks for putting classy joints like this in our fair town.

God Bless America,

Billy Kane

^^ very sarcastic. ha ha ha

That's....okay, I'll just say it: that's just stupid.

I will concur with others here that there should be great care in tossing around words like "corrupt" and "bought and paid for." Those are allegations that can get legal beagle attention.

I think this board gives Moshe Tal *waay* too much of a pass on his perpetual reluctance to disclose his investment base. As I recall, he was asked numerous times and he refused numerous times to give more detail about who would underwrite his fabulous plans. He never could, or if he could, he chose not to.

This is not a defense of Hogan, OCURA, or anyone else, but it is an attempt to point out that Tal could be as much to blame as anyone for failing to get the Lower Bricktown development project. If the Good Ol' Boy Network is at work here, no, it probably wouldn't have made much difference what Tal disclosed. But his abject refusal (after numerous requests) to be more open about his investor base gave what I think was more than sufficient cause for pause over his plans.

You can draw all kinds of pretty pictures and plan to bring in the moon for Saturday night entertainment, but if your funding is/was shaky, what good is it?

Besides, people here complain mightily about the evils of things like chain restaurants and stripmalls, yet seem here to bemoan the theoretical loss of things like an ESPNZone? We hear of Tal's plans for "world class shopping," but who was actually *signed up* to lease space in an area that right now can't even generate enough residential occupancy to justify a grocery store?

As I said, I have no interest in defending Hogan or any other players in the Bricktown Soap Opera. But I do think it is naive to assume that the "greener pastures" promised by Tal would have been as smooth, perfect, and trouble-free as some might suggest.

-SoonerDave

SoonerDave you're exactly right. I don't want to defend Hogan or anyone else either, but it seems that the losing proposal is always the one that would have changed the future of Oklahoma. It's kind of like Brent Rawls having never played a game as an OU quarterback is now thought of as the great one that got away. We elevate these things because we think of what could have been when in reality they may not have been much better than what we ended up with.

And the thought of an ESPN Zone isn't any better than what we currently have. With chain restaurants and big box stores making every city in town in America look the same, I say we should try to have as many originals and few chains downtown as possible. We need to set ourselves apart so that when people come to visit OKC they get something here that they can't get anywhere else.