Results were released from a studying looking into the possibility of a grocery store downtown. The study shows that there simply is no demand for a grocery store downtown.


Laws blamed for lack of downtown grocery

By Steve Lackmeyer
The Oklahoman

A report released Tuesday shows downtown Oklahoma City may be at a disadvantage in luring a specialty grocery because of state laws that prohibit them from selling strong beer and liquor.


A preliminary report of the study by The Kilduff Co. also shows no statistical unmet demand exists for a full-service grocery downtown, despite comments to the contrary by residents. And even with a flurry of housing development and a focused recruitment effort, consultant Larry Kilduff warns that an effort to persuade a grocery to open downtown could take three years or longer.

However, Kilduff said downtown also has some strengths for recruiting a grocery.
"There is demonstrated regional drawing power in the trade area," Kilduff reported.

"The downtown sites are well-positioned in the trade area with regard to residential and commercial activity. Existing retail and residential developments are doing well, and significant additional residential is projected."

Kilduff suggested civic leadership and infrastructure assistance from the city will be needed in any recruitment effort.

However, it's the specialty retailers such as Whole Foods, Central Market and Trader Joes that Kilduff believes will be best suited for downtown.

Dave Lopez, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., said he's not discouraged by the report. He and Roy Williams, president of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, said they believe the timing is right to recruit a grocery that can serve not just downtown, but the entire metro area.

"With the growth in downtown housing and the strengths pointed out in the study, we can now begin the hard work of attracting a grocer that can be a catalyst and attraction for downtown," Lopez said.

He said more discussion is needed to determine how to address a specialty store's desire to sell strong beer and liquor. Missouri recently changed its laws to allow such sales, while Texas allows it on a county-by-county basis.

"It affirms something we thought might be a vulnerability as we go ahead with trying to get the specialty grocers who sell wine and beer," Lopez said. "What we have to think through is if it's a vital product for a grocer to have, how do we solve that?

"Getting the law changed might be a very big project. Perhaps there is a novel way to have a grocery and liquor store next to each other."

Ron Edgmon, president of the Oklahoma Grocers Association, said he's aware of an initiative petition being circulated to change the state's liquor laws to allow sales at groceries.

"We're not involved," said Edgmon, who couldn't identify the petition's organizers. "They're trying to get it on the ballot in November ... we're not sure how strong this is or who the people are who are trying to get this done."

Edgmon said his organization's board has taken no stance on liquor sales in groceries.
He is convinced a grocery store will open downtown.

"I think a lot of what's going on downtown is the demographics are just now becoming favorable to support a grocery," Edgmon said.
"I think there will most definitely be a grocery store downtown. And with who is moving down there, the demographics will support a Whole Foods or that type of store."

Regardless of demand, we will never get one of those stores anywhere in the state until the liquor laws are changed.

I'm sure voters would overwhelming approve a change in the law if it could somehow make it to the ballot. I just don't see any group being motivated enough to make that happen.

Regardless of demand, we will never get one of those stores anywhere in the state until the liquor laws are changed.

I'm sure voters would overwhelming approve a change in the law if it could somehow make it to the ballot. I just don't see any group being motivated enough to make that happen.

Sorry to make this a partisan issue, but I don't see the law changing anytime soon with Republicans in a position to take over the Senate.

A preliminary report of the study by The Kilduff Co. also shows no statistical unmet demand exists for a full-service grocery downtown, despite comments to the contrary by residents. And even with a flurry of housing development and a focused recruitment effort, consultant Larry Kilduff warns that an effort to persuade a grocery to open downtown could take three years or longer.

However, Kilduff said downtown also has some strengths for recruiting a grocery.
"There is demonstrated regional drawing power in the trade area," Kilduff reported.

That's the (kinda, sorta) bad news followed by the (duh, obvious) good news. There is no doubt that a Whole Foods located in or near downtown would be a destination store and draw from the entire Metro in addition to the nearby neighborhoods.

While higher margin wine and liquor sales add to the bottom line of the vast majority Whole Foods locations, I am aware of at least one WF store in Dallas that is located in a dry county and doesn't offer alcohol. I also wonder if it isn't possible for an adjacent totally seperate location owned by Whole Foods to offer wine and liquor?

Now we move on to the recruitment phase, which is the most important and also offers the possibility of political influence. Get out those snail mail tools (unfortunately, e-mail doesn't carry as much weight in City Hall as an old fashioned letter) and write regular letters to the Mayor and your Councilperson suggesting that recruiting Whole Foods is important to OKC and that a few million in infrastructure improvements, some tax abatement or other financial inducements are in order.

It's one thing to work around a dry county law in a state where you have already made a big committment (Texas). It's quite another to chose to do business in a state with comprehensive laws that cut off a big chunk of your business and draw.

I shop in Trader Joe's at least once a week and a large percentage of people there are buying wine. I'm quite sure many would go elsewhere if it wasn't available.


I just don't see any hope on this issue until the laws are changed. Since that will likely take years, I hope some progress is made soon so when the demand is actually there, everything can come together.

I shop in Trader Joe's at least once a week and a large percentage of people there are buying wine. I'm quite sure many would go elsewhere if it wasn't available.

All of the stores where you live compete on the same basis; wine and liquor is allowed for sale in grocery stores. Why would a Whole Foods in OKC that doesn't sell wine and liquor not be competitive with all of the lack luster grocery stores in OKC that also don't sell wine and liquor? Wine and liquor sales only enhance store profits.

If Whole Foods sees a profitable market in OKC, they will open a store here. Encouragement by The City would be very helpful. It would seem to me that our best option is to lure Whole Foods here and then work to update our liquor laws not wait for the laws to be changed. OKC doesn't have room for three or four upscale grocery stores, so the first one to locate here could easily tie up the market for years to come.

I don't think it necessarily means "Grocery store not coming downtown soon". It just means the study says it may take more time. An investor with a good eye can realize the opportunity and may capitalize on this despite the survey. Other "experts" say one will come despite these results. I guess time will tell.

I think changing the law would help bring more business to Oklahoma.

I think that is why you do not see very many specialty food stores in Oklahoma. Like the stores you see on food network that cater to the amatuer chef. Those type of stores need to be able to sell wine and spirits for cooking.

I am sure Pastor Bob and company would come to the capitol screaming, "You cannot sell liquor in a grocery store. Every underage kid in the state would be boosing it up the moment it happened."

Why would a Whole Foods in OKC that doesn't sell wine and liquor not be competitive with all of the lack luster grocery stores in OKC that also don't sell wine and liquor? Wine and liquor sales only enhance store profits.

Because Whole Foods and Trader Joes are not full-service grocery stores. They are specialty stores that cater to (and rely heavily on) the wine-and-cheese crowd.

I guarantee you that a good percentage of people only go there for the wine and may pick up some other items as well.

For example, those stores don't sell Coke and Pepsi products and many traditonal name brands. Apart from a handful of extremists, virtually everyone that goes to the specialty stores ends up at a regular grocer anyway out of necessity.

So, without the draw of wine and speciality beers many people would not have much of a reason to make the special trip.


Realistically, I can't imagine why those stores would risk completely changing their tried-and-true format to come to Oklahoma, and especially areas that have iffy demographics.

How about Homeland? Aren't they an Oklahoma company? I'd like to see a local grocer doing business downtown.

How about Homeland? Aren't they an Oklahoma company? I'd like to see a local grocer doing business downtown.

The study wasn't done to lure a Homeland/Albertson's/etc to downtown. The goal is to have an upscale retailer that draws clientele from across the entire city and also has a nice cafe attached to the store. Much like your Central Market, Whole Foods, etc.

Once we strike down our archaic and ignorant liquor laws, they'll come running our way.

How about Homeland? Aren't they an Oklahoma company? I'd like to see a local grocer doing business downtown.

Absolutely not. Homeland is a low quality grocery chain that is notorious for running properties into the ground. The company structure is so archane the life is choked out of Homeland's grocery store employees.

Anyhow, I am e-mailing a copy of my proposal to Dave Lopez, who mentioned a need to change Oklahoma's liquor laws. Trust me, it won't take years, it's a short matter of time, and the change will most likely come at the hands of an initiative petition. It is more than just allowing grocery stores to sell strong beer and wine. It will take a complete overhaul of Article 28 of the Constitution from the ground up.

You guys are also pointing too many fingers at the wrong people who oppose a change in Oklahoma liquor laws. The real opposition will come from liquor store owners and liquor wholesale distributors. I've literally been in that very face of opposition before while trying to get a grass roots campaign started. I was turned away by almost every liquor store owner who a)doesn't want to operate coolers to sell cold beer and b)oppose selling wine and strong beer in grocery stores out of fear in loss of sales.

If we really want this changed, we need to either push lawmakers to put this issue to the vote of the poeple, or gather 200,000 signatures and go through the process of getting the proposal on the November ballot ourselves.

Has any one been to Piccadilly (http://www.piccadillyeast.com/market.html)in Wichita?
I want to put one in Bricktown. Who's in?

Perfect Size, Perfect Concept, Good Prices

^ They have Piccadilly in Tulsa, it's a great "upscale" cafeteria chain. But I don't think Bricktown is the place for that.

As for the grocery store, why does OKC have to have a specialty grocery? In the mean time a smaller version or Albertson's/Homeland/Reasor's should open up shop and begin serving the new and current downtown residents. In time, as more people move downtown, specialty grocer's will come even if they can't sell liquor. It would be nice if that does make it to the ballot though in November, as the article suggests. If they need additional signatures they should just go to the OU and OSU campuses where students would go out of their way to change the liquor laws.

I was turned away by almost every liquor store owner who a)doesn't want to operate coolers to sell cold beer and b)oppose selling wine and strong beer in grocery stores out of fear in loss of sales.

Which is understandable, but there are considerable restrictions on them as well, such as they can not own more than one store and they can only sell alcoholic beverages. I wonder if they would be more supportive if the legislation lifted these constraints as well.

I am also wondering if these constraints somehow prevent a specaialty grocer from owning a liquor store next to their grocery. I'm not sure how the statutes read, but, if this is currently allowed and any of these chains felt the market was ready, I think they'd already be here. At least in Norman or Edmond.

Because Whole Foods and Trader Joes are not full-service grocery stores. They are specialty stores that cater to (and rely heavily on) the wine-and-cheese crowd.

I guarantee you that a good percentage of people only go there for the wine and may pick up some other items as well.

For example, those stores don't sell Coke and Pepsi products and many traditonal name brands. Apart from a handful of extremists, virtually everyone that goes to the specialty stores ends up at a regular grocer anyway out of necessity.

So, without the draw of wine and speciality beers many people would not have much of a reason to make the special trip.


Realistically, I can't imagine why those stores would risk completely changing their tried-and-true format to come to Oklahoma, and especially areas that have iffy demographics.

Yo Malidude, Thanks for the new labels, I will in the future include member of the wine-and-cheese crowd and extremist to liberal, preservationist and tree hugger when introducing myself.

I don't know what Whole Foods stores you have ever been in, if any, but (IMO) you have no idea what you are talking about.

BTW, the last time that I bought any Coke or Pepsi was a couple of summers ago when I was having the grandkids over for a cookout. But it seems that when given the opportunity to compare, they prefered the Blue Sky Organic Gensign Ginger Ale and Reeds Apple Cider that their ol grandpa keeps in his, Coors Lite free, beer fridg.

Diversity pal, it's all about diversity. Enjoy the sunshine where ever you are.

I love Trader Joe's. Wish one would locate here, but Malibu is right....they have a small selection of unique, upscale items and rely heavily on wine sales. Wish I could pick up a bottle of wine when grocery shopping, but no.... not here.

I don't know what Whole Foods stores you have ever been in, if any, but (IMO) you have no idea what you are talking about.

Just the one less than a mile from my house every couple of weeks.


And when I said "extremist" I only meant it in the grocery-shopping sense, in that only a small percengtage of people would do all their grocery shopping in Whole Foods or Trader Joes.

No need to get personal or be offended by someone who is merely offering their own opinion based on personal experience. And if you knew anything about me, you'd see great irony in your lecture about 'diversity'.

I love Trader Joe's. Wish one would locate here, but Malibu is right....they have a small selection of unique, upscale items and rely heavily on wine sales. Wish I could pick up a bottle of wine when grocery shopping, but no.... not here.


And when I said "extremist" I only meant it in the grocery-shopping sense, in that only a small percengtage of people would do all their grocery shopping in Whole Foods or Trader Joes. . . . . No need to get personal or be offended by someone who is merely offering their own opinion based on personal experience. And if you knew anything about me, you'd see great irony in your lecture about 'diversity'.
Today 09:24 AM


A I was not lecturing Malibu, I was only using "diversity" in the grocery-shopping sense.
B. The average Whole Foods store is only slightly smaller than the average Albertsons, WalMarket, A&P etc.
C. The breadth of catagories of food products in Whole Foods is almost identical to Albertsons, WalMarket, A&P etc.
D. Here is what Whole Foods has to say about their grocery selection on their website www.wholefoodsmarket.com

Many customers linger in our stores, spending far longer than they do in other retail establishments. Why? One reason is the large and tempting assortment of products in our Grocery Department, so distinct from conventional supermarkets. Variety, it is said, is the spice of life.

As the natural foods industry has expanded to encompass every major food category as well as nutritional supplements, cleaning products, housewares and pet food, our Grocery aisles have expanded too. Customers wandering the aisles discover cereals, snacks, juices, yogurt and dairy products, frozen foods, soups, rows of products in bulk bins and more. Our stores offer an incredible diversity of grocery products, with new ones being introduced all the time. Included in these offerings are our three outstanding private label lines.

Whole foods doesn't build 5000 or 10000 sq. ft. botique markets featuring exclusively high priced specialty products. They are a first class, competitevly price grocery operatiions with a complete selection of produce, groceries, meats and prepared foods. They don't offer many of the highly advertised brands like Coke or Kellogs or whatever, but that doesn't keep them from being a complete grocery store. I simply don't understand what you, escan and Malibu, are talking about when you refer to Whole Foods as a specialty retailer with limited selection.

Granted, Trader Joes has a somewhat smaller selection based on their marketing practices, but taking brand names out of the equation, what food products are not available at Whole Foods?

See, wait a day and you see the other side to this story:

http://newsok.com/article/1840624/?template=business/main

"Complete" is a matter of opinion. I simply know very few people that do all their shopping at Whole Foods (in fact, I can't think of a single one) and most also still go to a traditional grocery store, usually more frequently than WF.

It's not because they don't offer soda and cleaning products, it's because they only offer a certain kind of those and other things.

And if you remove wine and beer from the equation, products a good chunk of WF shoppers purchase, you are now required to make another trip.


Most people I know (myself included) go to TJ's or WF's to buy wine and a few items that I can't get elsewhere. If wine wasn't offered, I have a lot less reason to go to those stores but I'm still going to the traditional grocery store no matter what.


Listen, I would love for one of those stores to hit OKC. But if you take away a big part of their draw and profit right out of the gate, that's going to be make an already difficult sales job (due to demographics) that much harder.

^ They have Piccadilly in Tulsa, it's a great "upscale" cafeteria chain. But I don't think Bricktown is the place for that.

http://www.piccadillyeast.com/market.html


Not the same Piccadilly, The one on east side of Wichita is the one I shopped at when I lived there several years ago. I'll be there this weekend and post some pics.

ODG-

I never mentioned Whole Foods...only Trader Joes....just wanted to clarify.....just read the posts before throwing us all together in a slew of generalities. :)

[
"Complete" is a matter of opinion. I simply know very few people that do all their shopping at Whole Foods (in fact, I can't think of a single one) and most also still go to a traditional grocery store, usually more frequently than WF.

No, "Complete" is not a matter of opinion it is an adjective meaning Having all necessary or normal parts. Thorough . I don't believe that you can refute my statement that Whole Foods offers a complete selection of grocery products.

Suggesting that Whole Foods may not, or should not, or will not locate a store in OKC because people will still go to other stores to buy some items is irrelevant to the discussion of this topic.



"It's not because they don't offer soda and cleaning products, it's because they only offer a certain kind of those and other things.

What does "certain kind" mean? Are you referring to brand names or product types or quality levels or exactly what?


"And if you remove wine and beer from the equation, products a good chunk of WF shoppers purchase, you are now required to make another trip.

You are simply making an assumption and a statement with no basis in fact. Whole Foods stores that carry wine and beer allocate about 10% of their floor space to those products. Due to the higher gross margins, they make more profit dollars as a percentage of their total net profit from those square feet but that is obviously not where they make the majority of their profit. If you disagree with this point, please provide some data or quotes from an expert or something besides your misguided opinions.



"Most people I know (myself included) go to TJ's or WF's to buy wine and a few items that I can't get elsewhere. If wine wasn't offered, I have a lot less reason to go to those stores but I'm still going to the traditional grocery store no matter what.

Most people (myself included) I know in OKC go to Albertsons or WalWhatever or Homeland or Akins or the Farmers Market to buy what they put on their table. Most people (myself included) I know in OKC would like to have the option of shopping at a Whole Foods which would be located in or near downtown. Most people (myself included) I know in OKC believe that there is an adequate market here to support a Whole Foods. Most people (myself included) I know in OKC believe that a Whole Foods would be a destination shopping location, a very popular store and a profitable venture for Whole Foods, even without wine and beer in their product mix. In the end, the executives at Whole Foods will make the decision to locate here now or later, because they at some point they will very likely want to locate a store here. Most people (myself included) I know in OKC would like for the store to be open as soon as humanly possible.

Disclaimer: When I say "Most people (myself included) I know in OKC" I am not suggesting that I personally know everyone in OKC or that I even personally know enough people to make up a customer base for a typical Whole Foods Grocery store. It is just my opinion. An opinion that is based in thoughtful inquiry and actual discussions with not only friends and acquaintances but also people in marketing, urban planning, city government etc.


Listen, I would love for one of those stores to hit OKC. But if you take away a big part of their draw and profit right out of the gate, that's going to be make an already difficult sales job (due to demographics) that much harder.

You and I agree on only one thing, that we would both love to have a Whole Foods hit OKC. But that is apparently all we agree on. You keep making the same weak argument revolving around wine and beer, which simply doesn't hold up in the face of economics and retail reality. So, now you are throwing around demographics in OKC as a negative. Of course you don't bother to quote the demographics required by Whole Foods or the other factors they look at such as potential customers within a twenty minute drive or on site parking or easy access to major streets or expressways; you just throw it out there as if you were actually making a legitimate argument.

If you want to keep arguing this subject, that's fine with me. I love to argue. I also really enjoy living in Oklahoma City and will continue to work toward improving the quality of my life here. I will attend the ground breaking and the grand opening of Whole Foods first store in Oklahoma City and the only thing I am not sure of is if I will be able to walk there or if I will need to ride my bicycle.

See, wait a day and you see the other side to this story:

http://newsok.com/article/1840624/?template=business/main

Thanks for posting the link, metro.

Sounds like Mick and other city leaders are already on top of this.

Some things I liked in the article:


Carl Edwards, managing partner of Price Edwards, the largest Oklahoma-based commercial real estate company, advised incentives such as downtown's tax increment finance district (TIF) will be needed to provide structured parking. "We don't have many opportunities to build a flat sea of parking downtown like we do elsewhere," Edwards said. "And that's where I see TIF playing a role."

ODG, I never meant to argue with you at all, just providing my own opinion and perspective as someone that actually lives in a community that contains these stores and that shops in them on a regular basis.


And far as addressing the various points you raise, I'd rather not as you continue to be overly emotional and personal in your responses.

Yes, Metro and Patrick, very good article and how about this comment at the Roundtable from Larry Kilduff:

"Larry Kilduff, a Milwaukee consultant hired to determine if downtown can support a grocery, urged city leaders to consider closing the underground Conncourse pedestrian tunnels. He said the city is at a disadvantage luring retailers if pedestrians aren't seen on downtown sidewalks."

Go Larry, you rock! If there is an albatross hanging around the neck of downtown, its those tunnels.

Don't get me started.

I have mixed feelings about the Conncourse. It could be one of those twenty years down the road, we're kicking ourselves for, for getting rid of them back in 2007. Remember just last year, NYC and a handful of cities were telling us what an asset they are. Only about 7 cities in the US have them.

I think they're nice to have when it's raining outside.

ODG, I never meant to argue with you at all, just providing my own opinion and perspective as someone that actually lives in a community that contains these stores and that shops in them on a regular basis.

And far as addressing the various points you raise, I'd rather not as you continue to be overly emotional and personal in your responses.

I don't think anything I said was personal, but I acknowledge your right to your own perception of reality. I was just trying to point out the holes in your statements. My reason being is that IMO, some people who read this stuff might think that a lot of what you said was more than simple conjecture; that you were relying on relevant information or broad experience. Some readers might use some of what you said to shape their own opinions about a rather important subject, again IMO.

By what you have written, though you are living in an area with grocery store choices we don't have here in OKC yet, you obviously don't find what Whole Foods offers to be appealing to your tastes. I think that is the total extent to which you can honestly comment. However you choose to suggest that Whole Foods would have no interest in locating here, their profitability required wine and beer sales, they didn't offer much and what they did offer was expensive, (I realize that I am paraphrasing here, please forgive me), OKC was not a good market for them etc.

I simply disagree with you; that's all. I do tend to put a little emotion into what I write on these forums; especially about subjects that I have a strong interest in, but I am not over wrought or anything (checked pulse; normal), just trying to make a good argument for what I believe.

If you are unwilling to concede that perhaps you spoke too hastily or that upon reconsideration you find that you might be in error on a couple of minor issues, and rather choose to rely on the tactic of trying to redirect the point of the exchange of ideas to my emotions then I'm OK with that as well. This is the modern day public square; people have been doing this for centuries. I am glad to agree to disagree and offer to buy you a beer the next time you find yourself in OKC.

you choose to suggest that Whole Foods would have no interest in locating here, their profitability required wine and beer sales, they didn't offer much and what they did offer was expensive, (I realize that I am paraphrasing here, please forgive me), OKC was not a good market for them etc.

I didn't say ANY of those things nor did I mean for anyone to take that meaning from what I wrote.


Saying that a specialty grocer would "never" locate in OK until the liquor laws were changed was a bit extreme on my part. I hope it can happen with the current laws because I know changing them will be hard.

But Whole Foods is based in near-by Austin and is in every neighboring state except Arkansas -- including Kansas and New Mexico which have smaller populations -- which begs the question: Why not Oklahoma? The answer seems quite obvious.

Yes, we can try and make it up to them by providing tax and other financial incentives but that seems silly to spend/re-direct public dollars without first attempting to change an antiquated law that will provide benefits far beyond one downtown OKC location.

Saying that a specialty grocer would "never" locate in OK until the liquor laws were changed was a bit extreme on my part. I hope it can happen with the current laws because I know changing them will be hard.

We agree again. That's two points in agreement and this is just Thursday. There are lots of entrenched interestes in the state that will fight to the death allowing wine and beer sales in grocery stores.

Oh, does that " . . was a bit . . ." part indicate that you might be OK with having a brewskie with a fellow extremist the next time you're in Okie City? I'll buy.

Only if you promise not to call me "Malidude". :)


Seriously, I think downtown or near downtown OKC would be a great location for Whole Foods or something similar. I just want them to be successful and pave the way for more locations in the state and similar types of retailers.

Plus, one of the best things about those stores and part of what they would bring to the market is their wine and specialty beer selections at excellent price points. It would be a shame is that wasn't part of the equation.

Only if you promise not to call me "Malidude". :)

It seemed clever at the time. My bad. No disrespect intended MalibuSooner. And thanks for your lively discussion on this interesting and important issue.



Seriously, I think downtown or near downtown OKC would be a great location for Whole Foods or something similar. I just want them to be successful and pave the way for more locations in the state and similar types of retailers.

Absolutely no argument from me on that. Success, as they say, breeds success.

It takes tens of millions of $s to get a large grocery retail location off the gound and it's a lot easier for me to stand here and tell Whole Foods what a great deal this market is for them than it is to justify that kind of investement in an unproven market to their board and share holders. I can only hope that they really do have the vision that they have demonstrated in developing their model and building their business so far and that my gut instincts about our city and its future aren't too far over the top.

Yours Truly,

Does anyone remember the whole foods type store that was in Edmond (Danforth and Bryant-Kickingbird Square) some years ago? Seemed like a good location but it didn't last long. I don't know if it was a chain of stores or not.

Does anyone remember the whole foods type store that was in Edmond (Danforth and Bryant-Kickingbird Square) some years ago? Seemed like a good location but it didn't last long. I don't know if it was a chain of stores or not.

It was operated by Pratt's. I enjoyed shopping there, as they offered the type of product that a Whole Foods or Cenral Market offer. Higher quality brands than just the 'big names' and a very nice selection of organic and unique produce items.

Does anyone remember the whole foods type store that was in Edmond (Danforth and Bryant-Kickingbird Square) some years ago? Seemed like a good location but it didn't last long. I don't know if it was a chain of stores or not.

I think it was Pratt's. They had about three stores. The one in Edmond and two in OKC. Not nearly the caliber of Whole Foods. Pretty vanilla interior look and displays. Not much in the way of prepared foods and in general, the availability of organic produce to an Oklahoma grocer was not reliable then. Not successful in the long run either. I think they are totally out of business now. I still have one of their canvas shopping bags that they offered for sale. They were big on recycling and conservation of natural resources.

Having a Whole Foods Type store, as opposed to an Albertson's, would, as the previous post indicated, create a destination grocer...pulling customers from all around the City to Downtown by giving them that which they can not get anywhere else in the Metro area. This could also provide Bricktown with an economic multiplier effect by generating additional foot traffic & patronage for the other Downtown merchants. It could be touted as an upscale amenity adding to existing incentives for residents to locate Downtown as well.

In trying to get a Trader's located in Tulsa, we were informed it was not cost effective because there were no distribution centers in the region. Perhaps a pitch to leverage OKC's central location as a regional supply/logistics hub could sweeten the deal,with regional growth potential and major cost efficiencies for them, and get one of these awesome green grocers for us.

Could a Whole Foods, or Trader Joe's get a restricted liquor license to sell beer & wine only...like convenience stores ? This would keep the the wine and cheese crowd from, well, being wine-less and help buffer the push-back from the hard liquor merchants. Think Byron's would chill a bit at folks buying bottles of 2 buck Chuck if they weren't having to compete for sales of Patron Silver ? ;)

The article in the Midtown Advocate was more informative than the Daily O. It sounded like Dave Lopez was really behind this deal. I'm considering trying to put together a petition drive supporting Whole Foods. Ideas?

Can you post a link to the Advocate story ?

Think you can get several thousand sigs for the petition ? Residents; Dowtown workers; City Councilmembers; Cultural Arts; Community orgs, Non-profits; Movie-goers at the Multi-plex; Baseball game attendees, etc ?

How many sigs do you think would be required for the relaxed ordinance for for wine and strong beer; wine only ?

Downtown Guy, if you're going to start a petition drive, let's at least begin by changing the liquor laws. We need more drive behind this effort. Then we can concentrate on Whole Foods.

The first step, as pulse pointed out, is to get the antiquated and ignorant laws off the books.

Just have a 'No Blue' strikedown and get rid of all the blue laws like walking and chewing gum and liquor stuff and all that.

There's no need for that in this day and age.

Would the petition aid or detract from changing the liquor law ? Would the petition give more weight to the effort...avoiding going in empty handed and unleveraged ?

What is involved in changing the blue laws ? If changing these is a relatively long, drawn out process, perhaps the petition and media exposure of this initiative may be a logical first step at accomplishing the goal of total removal. Perhaps a pilot program at a Downtown Grocer could be used as a proof of concept and be the catalyst for the total removal of the ordinance

But I may just be riffing here...sounds like you folks may have a better read on the issues than I so fill me in ;)

What is the best next step ?

Changing the controlled beverage laws in Oklahoma will, at best, be a long and incremental process and without a dedicated core group of willing and political savvy volunteers with plenty of time and the financial resources to produce ads, hire a lobbyist etc., the likelihood of success in the next few years IMO is very low.

I think first, we must get beyond this issue of wine and strong beer as being the single driver for a successful Whole Foods in OKC, and start operating on the premise that Whole Foods is a successful company as are others, Albertsons, Homeland etc. that make a profit in Oklahoma sans wine and strong beer sales and profits. Obviously, real estate prices and wages are a little lower in OKC than in Austin or Dallas and that alone might make up for the lost profit from wine and strong beer sales in those markets. I just think that focusing on wine and strong beer keeps some available recruitment actions, such as a petition drive, stalled. In other words, let’s move on.

I agree that a change is needed in these out dated statutes and perhaps Whole Foods management would be a champion for working with other grocers toward more appropriate controlled beverage laws, once they had a vested interest in the process by being in this market. To me, that makes more sense and gets the cart and the horse in better alignment than focusing on trying to change the laws first.

The Mayor, Dave Lopez and others are planning to meet with the major grocery retailers on the short list and I am considering meeting with Mick and Dave to get their blessing for a petition process. It is my understanding that this has been successful in a couple of other locations, but I don’t have all the facts to share at this time. The purpose of my post here is to get input on strategies and ideas related to conducting a petition drive not to discuss the competing philosophies of grocery store product mix and marketing.

BTW, The Advocate doesn't have an online version of their paper, so I can't link an article here. I will type in the main parts of the article in a subsequent post.

If we need to change an obsolete law to get a supermarket in a growing area, then we need to do it.

Survey the states that have liquor departments in supermarkets and ask how large (per capita) the problem is with minors, and I bet the answer is next to zero.

BTW. I like Trader Joes. It is a tropical theme and looks good.

How many sigs do you think would be required for the relaxed ordinance for for wine and strong beer; wine only ?

It would need a constitutional amendment, so you're looking at 200,000 signatures.

I agree that a change is needed in these out dated statutes and perhaps Whole Foods management would be a champion for working with other grocers toward more appropriate controlled beverage laws, once they had a vested interest in the process by being in this market. To me, that makes more sense and gets the cart and the horse in better alignment than focusing on trying to change the laws first.

Keep this in mind, Whole Foods has a location in Overland Park, Kansas. Kansas, like Oklahoma, only allows grocery stores to sell low-point beer. Whole Foods has a location in Overland Park because it is the wealthiest suburb of Kansas City, MO. However, was that the only reason why Whole Foods opened a location in a low-point beer state? Moreover, low-point beer cannot be sold on Sundays in Kansas.

Yep, Trader Joe's is a great store - sipping on some of their Italian Roast as we speak ;)...Whole Foods too -albeit much more expensive. The Joe's I have been too have had a REAL small selection of hard liquor; several shelves of crazy out-of-the-ordinary beers, and a small aisle of wine. Most of the wine purchases I see in these stores are the cases of two buck Chuck(Charles Shaw) Not sure of the % of sales are from these items but will check with a freind who works there...

The Old Guy may be right: Getting side-tracked on the wine and beer issue may be a distraction from the primary goal : Get a neat, unique grocer Downtown. We can start the ordinance removal from there

Tripping over dollars to get to dimes or something like that ;)

Have great weekend folks !

Here is the article from the MidCity Advocate. I think that it is a little more informative than the one from the Daily Oklahoman. It does indicate that there is good cooperation between the City, OKC COC and Downtown OKC and that they are trying to lay out a strategy to get there.

The MidCity Advocate Thursday May 128th, 2006
By Leslie Berger, Managing Editor

A recent study to determine the feasibility for a grocery store in downtown OKC recommended that city leaders begin recruiting a grocer while the downtown residential market continues to grow.

The study, conducted by consultant Larry Kilduff, of Kilduff Company found that while there is no statically unmet demand for a full-service grocery store right now, the ongoing revitalization of the area presents strong potential for the need in just a few years.

Downtown leaders met at a Mayor’s Roundtable last Wednesday to discuss the endeavor. Leaders noted the study indicates that a specialty grocery store such as a Central Market, Whole Foods, or Trader Joe’s, would be the best fit for downtown because it could draw customers from the greater metro area, as well as from downtown.

Dave Lopez, president of Downtown OKC, said that while three years has been tabbed as a potential time frame for a store to open downtown, he hopes that figure is on the long side.

“If we focus right and things lean our way, we can beat that three-year process,” Lopez said. He added that it’s important for area individuals to realize that it is still a long-term process. Lopez said the first step for recruitment is for downtown organizations to share the homework that they have done on this project.

“The second part is to determine how to best proceed with a champion that sponsors this, whether it is the chamber, the city or on the private side”, he said.

Russell Clause, manager of the economic development division for the city planning department, said the move needs to be very strategic. “There’s not a silver bullet solution,” he said. “We’ve been working with the Kilduff Company for quite a while now.”

Mayor Mick Cornett and representatives for the Greater OKC Chamber of Commerce will be meeting with executives from various retailers this month at an International Council of Shopping Centers meeting.

Lopez said no contact has been made with potential retailers. “We thought it was important to respect their time by making sure we had this data first,” he said.

Roy Williams, president of the Greater OKC Chamber noted the study’s suggestion that private enterprise should lead the recruitment effort, but said civic leadership, and possibly infrastructure assistance from the city will also be a component to success with this project.

“Now is the critical time to take the right actions to secure a specialty market that serves not only downtown, but benefits the entire metro area,“ Williams said.
Lopez said he was pleased with the study as a whole. I think it was identified that we’ve got a lot more strengths than weaknesses,” he said. Going through that process gives us professional insight rather than jus going on hunches we might have. That’s much more useful to grocers.”

The study identified eight strengths and three weaknesses. Strengths includes a demonstrated regional drawing power in the trade area, excellent accessibility off I-235 at both NW 10th and NW 6th streets, a significant commitment from the city to redevelop the downtown area, numerous public projects taking place in the area and the revitalization of nearby historic neighborhoods.

Weaknesses are that there is no statistical unmet demand for a full-service grocery store, restrictions on the sale of wine and beer may affect the ability to designate a site for a specialty grocery and relatively low current residential population density in a five-minute drive time.

Claus said the concern over alcohol restrictions is a growing concern for those looking to invest in downtown. He said the matter needs to be addressed from the private sector.

The study’s partners are the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce, the City and Downtown OKC Inc.

Is anyone surprised at the letter to the editor from the president of the Retail Liquor Association?

:rolleyes:

I found it funny he said that other states have monopolies.

Mr. JP Richard, you sir, are a good ol' boy.