EDMOND - City council members are expected to vote Monday on taking another step in their fact-gathering mission to determine if a Tax Increment Financing district is right for Edmond.
The council has been presented paperwork to hire an attorney to assist the city in creating an increment or incentive district allowed under the Local Development Act. The concept is often referred to as a TIF district.

With a financing district, money from property or sales taxes is set aside to pay off bonds that are sold to finance infrastructure or other public improvements.

The financing doesn't touch tax money earned by the schools or the city, but focuses on future revenue.

Action on whether to hire an attorney for the plan is expected to be taken during the meeting that begins at 5:30 p.m. in council chambers at 20 S Littler.

Council members have said they want to explore the possibility of creating a financing district by hiring an attorney and forming a committee to review the concept.

Backers of a commercial development at Interstate 35 and Covell Road have individually talked to council members about possibly using TIF district money used on their project.

Developers want to build a hotel with a convention center and shopping mall with large department stores.

School board President Kathleen Duncan has already spoken out against the schools' tax money being used in the TIF district for fear it will have a negative financial impact on the schools.

The district is experiencing a population growth of an additional 600 students a year.

The council also will consider adding $120,000 to the fleet management fund because of high fuel costs.

More money is needed to keep city vehicles running through June 30, the end of the fiscal year.

Engineering for the widening of the next phase of Kelly Avenue, between Danforth and Coffee Creek roads, will be voted by the council.

The engineering cost is expected to be $328,910. A design plan is necessary for construction.

Edmond will pay 20 percent of estimated $8.3 million project. The Oklahoma Department of Transportation through the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments will pay 80 percent. The project is scheduled for 2010.

This project will make Kelly Avenue a four-lane divided roadway with left turn lanes at the side streets.

City officials plan to widen Kelly Avenue throughout the entire city.

I bet Edmond city residents will love the concept of a large shopping mall.

This type of financing really irks me. This project would be 100% feasible without tax money. This is a shopping mall in Edmond read: GUARANTEED PROFIT! This is not the Skirvin.

TIF for this type of development is rotten to the core. It really is stealing from our schools to fund private development by out of state contractors and developers. Bravo city of Edmond.

I am very excited about this;I have told my friends for years that it was only a matter of time before there would be a mall in east Edmond. Now I always projected within the next 10-15 years but this is great. I agree with the above statement about pure profit. This mall would only be about 7 minutes from UCO and would serve Arcadia, Luther, Guthrie and many more small communities in addition to Edmond. The only downside is that this will probably just increase the urban sprawl of the OKC metro. But all the same sounds great. And being a member of the Edmond Convention and Visitor's Bureau, I am particularly enthusiastic about finally having a full service convention hotel in Edmond.

Is this going to be a REAL mall or a strip center?

I watched the planning commision meeting on this and a resident asked if it would be a setup similar to Quail Springs mall. The developer stated that the zoning would not allow them to construct a building like Quail Springs but they were still going to bring in mall-type department stores. So I am not sure if they will try to get the zoning changed to where they can build a true mall or if this will be some kind of uppscale shopping center. But either way I do not think they would call it a shopping mall if it were to be a standard strip center.

I watched the planning commision meeting on this and a resident asked if it would be a setup similar to Quail Springs mall. The developer stated that the zoning would not allow them to construct a building like Quail Springs but they were still going to bring in mall-type department stores. So I am not sure if they will try to get the zoning changed to where they can build a true mall or if this will be some kind of uppscale shopping center. But either way I do not think they would call it a shopping mall if it were to be a standard strip center.

Some people incorrectly call a strip center a "strip mall," so I was wondering if that is what they meant or if is was going to be a real mall.

From what I've been hearing, it might be more like a Utica Square type of setup. There is a lot of old growth and a reasonable amount is probably protected.

I'm more excited for Edmond about the convention center/hotel than the shopping.

Covell is going to be the next Memorial Road. If you remember, Covell was chosen as Edmond's second RR underpass.

I wouldn't really mind if they built a nice mall in east Edmond, but I would rather see a outdoor lifestyle center like Utica Square. Something like that could be really nice-- lots of trees. If they designed it right, they could even put parking underneath the anchors and minimize the surface parking. This, combined with a hotel and conference center would really be good for Edmond.

Since it would be combined with a hotel and conference center, it would increase the viability of the shopping area. If they get this deal done, I hope they have enough pull to get stores like Saks/Nordstrom and a hotel like a Westin/Renaissance.

So you guys don't care that they're using tax money to build this property to make money for private investors? That's okay with you?

I have mixed emotions about using TIF on this. On one hand, I think that property taxes should go to schools only. On the other hand, this is not taking away any money from schools, only not letting them have some of the growth (there will be other growth the schools will benefit from). With more details, I may have a different viewpoint, but with the limited information I have, I can't get too worked up one way or the other.

1. Considering the fact that malls are really on the way out in the present society, I think building a mall in Edmond wouldn't be a smart move. I think an open air development similar to the other upscale developments they currently have would be better.

2. I agree with Midtowner on the use of TIF money for this project. TIF money was supposed to be designed to improve areas that couldn't be improved otherwise. The Skirvin, Colcord renovation, and any other inner city project would probably qualify. Most of these simply wouldn't be feasible with out it. But, a shopping center in Edmond? Come on folks.......

3. I have the same problem with this that I had with subsidizing Bass Pro.

4. A think a true shopping mall like Quail Springs in Edmond would absolutely kill Quail Springs. I talked to the mall manager at Quail Springs recently and she told me that they've had a really tough time finding new tenants for the mall. That's why you're seeing a lot of local stores move in. For example, Two Sisters recently replaced Trevors.
She told me most of the upscale national retailers are either moving to the Spring Creek area in Edmond, or to Penn Square Mall.
Anyhow, it's mostly Edmond that's supporting Quail Springs at the present time. Still those residents away, and the mall will be hurting.

I have mixed emotions about using TIF on this. On one hand, I think that property taxes should go to schools only. On the other hand, this is not taking away any money from schools, only not letting them have some of the growth (there will be other growth the schools will benefit from). With more details, I may have a different viewpoint, but with the limited information I have, I can't get too worked up one way or the other.

Brian, that's an illogical justification -- completely illogical.

Will the schools receive less money if TIF is used here? Yes.

The answer to the question really is that simple.

The financing doesn't touch tax money earned by the schools or the city, but focuses on future revenue.

Will the schools receive less money if TIF is used here? Yes.
They won't recieve less money according to the article. They just won't get as much of the growth. I should, however, expand my reasoning. If the deal is completely viable without TIF, I absolutely don't think it should be used. If it is not viable without TIF, I will keep an open mind. None of us can say for sure that the deal is/is not viable right now, because none of us have looked at the projected financials from the project. That is the only reason I am keeping an open mind on this deal.

And I don't appreciate you calling my opinion illogical. I am a well-educated, successful, upwardly-mobile businessman, and if I want to keep an open mind on something until I have more information, I think that is completely logical.:tiphat:

Who's the developer? I ask this because, does he have any prior experience in this type of development or are we getting another "Randy Hogan development"?

This is a selfish view, but for every quality retail development in the suburbs, that's one strike against downtown retail. Still, if Edmond is going to be home to some major league (read: NBA) salaries, it has to provide more opportunities to keep that money here.

I think this may be another announcement of false promises. I can't see another mall with full department stores like Dillards and JC Penney with Quail Springs so close. If they did have dept. stores, I'm guessing Saks or something like that. Still, I'd like to see those downtown.

Is the 8.3 million for road construction or for the cost of the mall/hotel/convention center??? Cause if it is for the actual project, then it is going to be very small scale...

The 8.3 mill is just for the widening of Kelley Ave.

They won't recieve less money according to the article. They just won't get as much of the growth.

Less growth = less money. Do you disagree?


I should, however, expand my reasoning. If the deal is completely viable without TIF, I absolutely don't think it should be used. If it is not viable without TIF, I will keep an open mind. None of us can say for sure that the deal is/is not viable right now, because none of us have looked at the projected financials from the project. That is the only reason I am keeping an open mind on this deal.

TIF was recently used in Chickasha to build a Wal-Mart. Developers do not care whether TIF is needed, it is only important that they have access to free money at the expense of our schools. A city council (read: a body of elected officials with zero name recognition who have to run for office after receiving salaries which only cover a fraction of the actual cost to run) often doesn't have the luxury of making the right decision, they have to think about reelection and donations to their campaign war-chests.


And I don't appreciate you calling my opinion illogical. I am a well-educated, successful, upwardly-mobile businessman, and if I want to keep an open mind on something until I have more information, I think that is completely logical.:tiphat:

I appreciate that, and I appreciate your forum participation. I'm not attacking you, merely your statement which was, on its face a contradiction in terms. You can probably see how the statement "less growth is not less money" is flawed. Nothing personal is meant at all, it's just a fact that TIF by its nature takes money from our schools. The hope is that the TIF money will be repaid by collateral development.

In a city like Edmond, however, we don't need TIF money to spawn development. It will happen with private money if we're patient. There must be a little restraint and control in these handouts instead of (in Edmond's case) giving them out to anyone and everyone whom Randal Shadid introduces to the Council members.

:iagree:

The hope is that the TIF money will be repaid by collateral development.

This is simplistic and needs elaboration:

I mean to say that the hope is that the money lost in tax revenue to the city will be paid by increased property values in collateral development.

The error here is the assumption that absent TIF money, there will be no development. This is Edmond we're talking about, not Northeast 23rd & Bryant. If a developer thinks that the most profitable use for a parcel of land is a shopping/convention complex, he or she will put a nice proposal together, get financing, zoning, etc. The city can help by providing some of the infrastructure and services, otherwise, private financing will get the job done.

While those 'in the know' about how business gets done in OK knew better, TIF was sold to the voters as something to help revitalize areas that required public investment to be revitalized. TIF was not sold as a vehicle through which developers can finance suburban sprawl with public money.

If I were in a position where I could amend that legislation in order to help it achieve its purpose, I would attach an amendment requiring that a piece of property in order to qualify for TIF money must first be found to be "blighted." Otherwise, we're just giving public money to private companies to do things that they could and would pay for by themselves otherwise.

On Channel 5's 10pm newscast tonight, I think they said the city council approved this plan. Did anyone else see that? They said we should expect to see upscale stores in the mall-- like the Galleria in Dallas.

They said we should expect to see upscale stores in the mall-- like the Galleria in Dallas.

That's what every developer promises (see Spring Creek), we'll see though.

Yeah, first they said mall, now they're saying shopping center. Last time I checked, a shopping center is typically an outside strip mall. What type of "mall" are they really referring to here?

http://newsok.com/article/1839423/?template=news/main

Well to me it still sounds like a mall. They said at least 3 large upscale department stores. Hopefully these three department stores that they are in talks with will happen, since according to the story, none of them are in OK. Since there is a Saks in Tulsa, I guess that would probably be a Nordstrom, Barneys, Neimans, or Bloomingdales. Who knows.

The best part of the entire story was at the end...
"...saving the trees and amount of landscaping were discussed."

At least someone understands the importance of saving existing trees and adding to the landscape!

The only thing I don't like about this story is that if in fact those department stores do come in, they is going to steal a ton of shoppers away from OKC and further into the suburbs

I think attracting 3 stores like Nordstroms, Saks, etc. is wishful thinking on the developer's part. We'll have to wait and see though.

I wouldn't be opposed to smaller upscale stores in a Spring Creek-type development in Edmond. They would do well and it would help the city's tax base. TIF is completely unnecessary, developers are trying to milk that too often these days and I hope the Edmond city council denies it. All new department stores should be concentrated downtown though so they can be accessible to the entire OKC metro and encourage continued retail development in the city center.

For the small price of a campaign donation, TIF money can be assured. The trade of a few $5,000 donations in exchange for a fwe million dollars worth of TIF money is always a hell of an investment.

I will be extremely surprised if there is no TIF used.

I've been told that the 3 anchors of the complex will be Sheplers, Teners, and an Eskimo Joe's outlet. Has anyone else heard that?

I've been told that the 3 anchors of the complex will be Sheplers, Teners, and an Eskimo Joe's outlet. Has anyone else heard that?

Patrick, liars go to hell. I hope you know that;)

Boone Pickens said he wanted the Eskimo Joes outlet to have a Pistol Pete statue entrance larger than Big Tex at the Texas State Fair.

WOW, upscale.

where did you hear that, because the story yesterday said upscale retailers not currently in OK...can't see that statement changing in one day

Nuclear, I believe that Patrick was being sarcastic. Although, with OSU people being involved, he may not be too far off. :fighting3

Yeah, I was being sarcastic. My point is we've heard this before with Spring Creek Village.

yeah i missed the third page here before I posted!!! Anyway, carry on past my stupidity!!!

That's what every developer promises (see Spring Creek), we'll see though.

Um, well actually Spring Creek DOES have the most upscale stores in the metro outside Penn Square/50 Penn. Talbot's, White House Black Market, Ann Taylor Loft, Jos. A Bank, New Balance, etc...

I hope nobody minds the input from a non-resident but longtime admirer of the OKC metro area (and a former resident, albeit a temporary one).

With respect to the potential anchor retailers, I would guess that Nordstrom would probably be the most likely and logical department store anchor. Saks is presently in a state of financial flux - not really distress, but not exactly in a position to make an ambitious expansion gamble on an entirely new market like OKC. Ditto that for Neiman Marcus. As far as Bloomingdale's, they haven't yet made a foray into similar sized markets - I live in St. Louis and when Federated (Bloomie's parent company) bought up Famous Barr (same stores as Foley's) and our two Lord and Taylors, the thought was that at least one of the two L&T's slated for closure here would be converted into a Bloomingdale's. Federated took a pass and simply closed both L&T's. They're simply not interested in moving into markets much smaller than the handful of "first tier" sized cities they're in now. Also, Nordstrom seems to be slightly less particular about the company that they keep - in other words, they tend to be more flexible with regard to locating in centers that aren't populated by X% of "upscale" retailers. I know from speaking with people formerly affiliated with St. Louis's Plaza Frontenac (where Saks and Neiman both reside), those two retailers tend to insist upon covenants from potential landlords about the types of businesses which would and would not be acceptible co-tenants. I don't know if there's rights of first refusal involved, but there may be financial concessions the malls have to make if they move too far "downscale" for the anchors' tastes. With a new development, I have my doubts that the developer will want to foreclose upon too many potential opportunities. I think a center like the one contemplated would be a good location for a Nordstrom as well as Pottery Barn, Williams Sonoma, Sur La Table and perhaps even a Dean & Deluca. I would think Harolds would also do quite well in that type of a center. One way or another, I hope the metro area is able to land one or two upscale department stores. There certainly seems to be an adequate market to support at least one.

Developer plans Edmond hotel project

EDMOND -- John Q. Hammons Hotels Inc. has signed a letter of intent to build a multistory hotel with adjoining conference center as part of Covell Place Town Center, a 309-acre planned upscale retail, entertainment, hospitality and office complex under development by Mike Galiga's As One Group at Interstate 35 and Covell Road in Edmond.

Here's a more detailed listing from the JR:


Hotel, convention center planned for Edmondby Kelley Chambers
The Journal Record
11/22/2006 EDMOND – Hotel and conference center developer and operator John Q. Hammons Hotels Inc. has signed a letter of intent to build a conference center and hotel at Interstate 35 and Covell Road.
The development team for the area is a collaborative effort between an Arkansas company and local company As One Group led by Michael Galiga.
Galiga said plans have been in the works for more than two years to ultimately build both a $20 million convention center and a hotel with about 235 rooms.
The convention center and hotel are planned for the northwest corner of the project called Covell Place Town Center. The area will also feature an open-air shopping center.
Galiga said the $400 million shopping center will feature upscale stores. He said the group is also close to receiving a commitment from an upscale department store.
Galiga said the developers are submitting a Tax Incremental Finance proposal to the city of Edmond on Wednesday laying out the components of the deal.
He said he is confident the city will approve the project, which will include benefits to the city in the form of youth sports facilities and a 20- to 30-acre aquatic area on the southeast corner.
“We think in the end it gets everybody what they need,” he said. “If we don’t build this center here now, it’s going to go to another city.”
Toni Weinmeister with the Edmond Economic Development Authority said a market study and analysis by the accounting firm KPMG last year concluded Edmond could support over 40,000 square feet of convention space and about a 240-room hotel.
Weinmeister spoke highly of Hammons’ reputation and what it could mean for the city. “It’s flattering that anyone of that status and that quality is looking at Edmond,” she said. Galiga said the plan is to begin construction on the shopping center, hotel and convention center in fall 2007. The work is scheduled to take about three years to complete.

Wonder what upscale department store they're referring to......probably Dillards! LOL!

Likely it's a Belk's which after coming to Tulsa (located at Smith Farm in Owasso and under construction at Tulsa Hills) has to be looking at OKC. Belk's is kinda like a free standing Dillard's.

Belks is hardly better than J.C. Penny. Stillwater has one.

Belk's is supposed to be the department store tennant in the new Spring Creek devleopment in Edmond.

Doubt they woud go for 2 stores in Edmond.

Apparently it is Nordstrom's. John you are correct Belk is going in the new portion of the Spring Creek development.

Centerback, do you have a source? That would be HUGE if it was going to be a Nordstrom.

I am pretty positive it is not Nordstrom's as I was told by a city planner that Nordstrom's and the like were not interested. Unless this has changed in the past 3 weeks...

Looks like Edmond's trying to keep up with Norman.

If it is Nordstrom, it's not on thier list yet. See this:

New Store Openings - Nordstrom.com (http://about.nordstrom.com/ourstores/openings/openings.asp)

Apparently it is Nordstrom's. John you are correct Belk is going in the new portion of the Spring Creek development.

Can you please tell us where you read or heard its Nordstrom's??

My family that lives in Wichita has heard that a Warren Theatre is coming to Edmond, most likely in this development.

I am wondering if this development wont be similar to Southlake Town Square in the Dallas Metroplex. My grandparents live right near there and it is a wonderful development. I was there at Thanksgiving and they added a Harkins Theater and a Hilton Hotel and Convention Center. All the same this will be a great development, and us UCO kids sure will be happy to not have to drive over to Memorial for a quality cinema experience. Here is the site for whoever wants to check it out: Southlake Town Square (http://www.southlaketownsquare.com)

Moer information on this project....

NewsOK.com | Powered by The Oklahoman and NEWS 9 (http://www.newsok.com/video/text/73332/?template=news/main)

Simon group signs on for I-35 and Covell project
by Kelley Chambers
The Journal Record
1/12/2007

EDMOND – Plans have been in place for some time to build a shopping center at Interstate 35 and Covell Road; however, on Thursday the developers announced that a major retail development company had signed on to the project.

Michael Galiga, with Edmond-based As One Group said the Simon Property Group will work in a joint venture with the Covell I-35 Development group to build the 1.2 million-square–foot open-air retail lifestyle center. Covell I-35 includes Little Rock, Ark.-based Clary Development.

Galiga said the deal with Simon Property was completed earlier this week.

Indianapolis-based Simon Property, which owns Penn Square Mall in Oklahoma City, is one of the country’s largest developers and managers of retail properties. Galiga said the group did not go out seeking a company such as Simon to join in on the project.

“Simon approached us a few months ago,” he said. “We didn’t approach them. Of course when they called us we were flattered. We met with them and we liked them and they liked us.”

Plans for the project call for a retail and office complex at I-35 and Covell at a cost of more than $400 million.

Galiga said the lifestyle shopping center will be on the northwest corner while the southwest corner will also have more than 500,000 square feet for big-box retail stores.

An office park and medical offices are tentatively planned for the northeast corner.

In November, hotel and conference center developer John Q. Hammons signed a letter of intent to build a hotel and conference center at the I-35 and Covell site.

Galiga said he could not yet name department stores that may locate in the center but said the developers have received verbal commitments.

He also said there is the indication that there will be a theater as part of the development.

Galiga said the developers hope to begin construction on the shopping center this fall.

The Associated Press contributed to this story.

$400 Million?? Good lord. Great news that Simon is involved.

This is great news that Simon is now involved. They only do quality developments. And I think this all but confirms what most of us were hoping-- that this will be an upscale development (the lifestyle center part, not necessarily the out-parcel part). The article states that the lifestyle center will be 1.2 million sq. ft. It also says the big-box part will be 500,000 sq. ft. I don't know if that means it will have either 700,000 or 1.2 million for mall-type stores, but either way is excellent.

Simon has great pull with retailers like Nordstrom and Saks, and has a history of recruiting stores like these into markets they are not currently in. Simon signing onto this deal I think solidifies its chances of getting upscale stores like this. If they can't do, I don't think it will be done in the Oklahoma City area for a long time.

Great news!

I bet they'll be using this as on opportunity to bring in some stores that they would have liked to have at Penn if there were room to expand. Department stores especially.

Here's a description of their newest lifestyle center, The Domain in Austin:

The Domain, opening in March 2007, will feature 700,000 square feet of luxury fashion and restaurant space. It will cater to Austin's affluent population with high-end retailers that include Barneys CO-OP, CALYPSO, Tiffany & Co., the city's first Neiman Marcus and restaurants like Jasper's and Kona Grill.

The 57-acre first phase of this mixed-use project will include an upscale Main Street center anchored by Macy's and Neiman Marcus, eight first-class restaurants, 75,000 square feet of Class A office space, 400 high-end apartments and a full-service hotel.


So that gives us a good idea.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/martymcflyjb/Domain1207.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/martymcflyjb/Domain1208.jpg

Some stores in other Simon lifestyle centers:

REI
Wild Oats
Dick's Sporting Goods
Whole Foods
The Container Store
Crate & Barrel
Neimen Marcus
Macy's