Are we having any rallies in our state today?

I find it interesting that CA has 16 cities participating and I haven't heard anything about marches or demonstration here in OKC.

There are many cities 90+ today across the nation.....

Has anyone heard anything happening here in OK?

If we had them, would you go?

We had a rally on April 1st on the front of the Capitol Building. And it had about 5,000 and possibly more. I showed up to it, and it was interesting. I expected more people to show up.

If we had them, would you go?

If they were pro-American and legal immigrant rallies, I would be there!

Would I go? Only to protest illegal immigration wrecking our social infrastructure and attempting to turn America into a third world nation.

American citizens can't afford to take the day off to walk the streets with American flags and protest for our rights. We have day jobs, mortgage payments, etc. Because of that, many of our elected officials think we don't have an opinion on the matter. And they'll just pander to the people who are marching.

Even if we could hit the streets and wave the flag, we would be dismissed as racists and have our rally called a neo-Nazi march or some baloney like that.

American citizens can't afford to take the day off to walk the streets with American flags and protest for our rights. We have day jobs, mortgage payments, etc. Because of that, many of our elected officials think we don't have an opinion on the matter. And they'll just pander to the people who are marching.

Even if we could hit the streets and wave the flag, we would be dismissed as racists and have our rally called a neo-Nazi march or some baloney like that.

BINGO!
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Would I go? Only to protest illegal immigration wrecking our social infrastructure and attempting to turn America into a third world nation.

I am pro-immigration, and I am opposed to the HR 4437 house bill, but i do think that something needs to be done over illegal immigration. And I don't like For illegal immigration to attempt to turn the U.S. into a developing nation sounds way too extreme. But the U.S. has also not controlled the borders adequately. And this is not good for our national security.



American citizens can't afford to take the day off to walk the streets with American flags and protest for our rights. We have day jobs, mortgage payments, etc. Because of that, many of our elected officials think we don't have an opinion on the matter. And they'll just pander to the people who are marching.

Even if we could hit the streets and wave the flag, we would be dismissed as racists and have our rally called a neo-Nazi march or some baloney like that.

I did know many "American citizens" who have "busy lives" who showed up at the rally. And an obvious majority of the people at the rally proudly waved the American flag.

American citizens can't afford to take the day off to walk the streets with American flags and protest for our rights. We have day jobs, mortgage payments, etc. Because of that, many of our elected officials think we don't have an opinion on the matter. And they'll just pander to the people who are marching.

Even if we could hit the streets and wave the flag, we would be dismissed as racists and have our rally called a neo-Nazi march or some baloney like that.
Thank you...This is so true.

Would I go? Only to protest illegal immigration wrecking our social infrastructure and attempting to turn America into a third world nation.
Thank you also...

I believe the U.S. Congress is screwing up the matter, perhaps even deliberately.

The House bill is indeed too harsh. I don't agree with making illegal entry into the US a felony offense. And it's outright hypocrisy if the felony charges will not be sternly applied to employers of undocumented workers. The Senate bill is basically an amnesty bill. Both pieces of legislation go to far to either extreme. I think they're being designed that way deliberately so nothing winds up happening. We just get gridlock.

And then the more left leaning Democrats are just pandering with speeches that basically say, "let everyone in!" I'll bet real money Ted Kennedy would not like his property taxes jacked up through the roof to pay for a massive influx of foreign students in his school district. He probably wouldn't like paying a huge hike in general taxes and Medicare taxes to pay for the increased burden on our health care and social services sector.

I'm firmly against illegal immigration, but believe the main point of attack should be on hitting unethical employers. Many deliberately hire undocumented workers to dodge the costs associated with hiring American citizens, such as the minimum wage, matching social security payments, workers comp. insurance premiums and more. All of the businesses who dodge those costs pass that burden onto businesses who do play by the rules. The sign company where I work has seen its workers comp premiums escalate out of control as badly as health insurance premiums.

If the employers know the threat of being busted for illegal hiring is real, the demand for undocumented workers will dry up very quickly. I believe our government not only tolerates illegal hiring practices, but actually encourages it.

To gain control on that avenue, we may end up needing something akin to a national ID card system, perhaps even with more secure biometric features. The widespread problem of identity theft and other types of fraud are making the need for better personal identification more critical.

We still have to gain control of our border nonetheless. The threat of international terrorism is one possibility. Violent organized criminal groups are a more real, pressing threat. Drug and gang related crime pass across our borders with ease currently.

Many Americans are hotly angry about this subject because we are paying into a system that does nothing to support us at all. We have roughly 45 million American citizen workers with no health care coverage at all. But an undocumented worker picking lettuce on a farm in Yuma, AZ can get free health care on the taxpayer's dime.

It simply isn't right for the American taxpayers to foot the bill for services on so many other non-citizens when we cannot even take care of our own. That's just plain retarded.

Bobby, I generally agree.

As to the political aspect of this, I think the unfortunate truth is that both parties would rather have the issue than the solution. The Republican party wants to double dip -- on one hand speaking out against illegal immigration, inciting its base and turning out the vote, while on the other, doing nothing and ensuring that lobbyists keep funding their campaigns.

Democrats want to talk out one side of their mouths telling union members that they are against illegal immigrants while on the other claiming to be the party for the minority workers.

Both parties think they can incite their bases and use this issue to propel them to power. The solution means they'll have to find something else to run on.

Don't expect them to solve this problem, pass major reform, or anything like that. The only meaningful way to address this problem is by destroying the demand for labor, not the supply.

You make it so it is more costly for employers to employ illegals and your problem is solved. If you want to accompany that with a guest worker program? Fine. As long as they pay worker's comp, healthcare, etc. I have no problems.

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The fact that the Dems are recruiting at these protests isn't a surprise. It fits into their big picture of race and politics (which is why the flyer's visual puts Texas and Mexico together). The Democrats classify people based upon race and then work to corner the racial voting collectives. At this point, the white vote is already split down the middle, half voting Democrat, half Republican. The Dems have cornered the black voting collective with over 90% voting Democratic. If Democrats manage to corner the Hispanic vote like they have cornered the black vote, Republicans won't win the White House for a very long time. This is the Democrats' dream, so they are trying very hard to collectivize the Hispanic community by turning the immigration issue into another.

not in the city, but in OK

http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1&id=102191

So, do you guys like outsourcing, or maybe inflation? You can't have it both ways. Basically, we're villify illegal immigrants while celebrating and supporting the goods and services they produce becuase they are cheap. Trust me, people won't pay American made prices for a lot of stuff. Oh, wait, that's the unions fault. They demand good wages and benefits that drive up the price of goods. So, I guess what we want is for American companies to pay American workers less so that jobs don't leave the country, they employ legal citizens who pay taxes, and our Wal-Mart prices won't go up. Basically, we pay 3rd world wages to American citizens, so we'll still be 3rd world, we just won't look like it. Right?

Do we hate them because they work harder, longer, and cheaper than naturals will? Or do we love them becuase they keep prices low and jobs in America?

So, do you guys like outsourcing, or maybe inflation? You can't have it both ways. Basically, we're vilifying illegal immigrants while celebrating and supporting the goods and services they produce because they are cheap. Trust me, people won't pay American made prices for a lot of stuff. Oh, wait, that's the unions fault. They demand good wages and benefits that drive up the price of goods. So, I guess what we want is for American companies to pay American workers less so that jobs don't leave the country, they employ legal citizens who pay taxes, and our Wal-Mart prices won't go up. Basically, we pay 3rd world wages to American citizens, so we'll still be 3rd world, we just won't look like it. Right?

Do we hate them because they work harder, longer, and cheaper than naturals will? Or do we love them because they keep prices low and jobs in America?

As for the immigration rallies themselves, I love it, no matter what side you're on. To me that is America. America will always be made of people coming to this country to look for a better way of life. I hope that we continue to be an option of hope for the hard working immigrant who wants better for his or her family and loves the country that is giving them that opportunity. I just don't see how creating a disgruntled guest worker class, like you find in Europe, is really going to help us out. It's trading one problem for another, imo.

So, do you guys like outsourcing, or maybe inflation? You can't have it both ways. Basically, we're vilifying illegal immigrants while celebrating and supporting the goods and services they produce because they are cheap. Trust me, people won't pay American made prices for a lot of stuff. Oh, wait, that's the unions fault. They demand good wages and benefits that drive up the price of goods. So, I guess what we want is for American companies to pay American workers less so that jobs don't leave the country, they employ legal citizens who pay taxes, and our Wal-Mart prices won't go up. Basically, we pay 3rd world wages to American citizens, so we'll still be 3rd world, we just won't look like it. Right?

Do we hate them because they work harder, longer, and cheaper than naturals will? Or do we love them because they keep prices low and jobs in America?

As for the immigration rallies themselves, I love it, no matter what side you're on. To me that is America. America will always be made of people coming to this country to look for a better way of life. I hope that we continue to be an option of hope for the hard working immigrant who wants better for his or her family and loves the country that is giving them that opportunity. I just don't see how creating a disgruntled guest worker class, like you find in Europe, is really going to help us out. It's trading one problem for another, imo.

You make it sound as if all illegals are a vital part of our economy. What about the DRAIN on our social infrastructure? They're not all hard working, nice family folk. In fact, 28% of all inmates in federal prisons, according to the DOJ, are ILLEGAL aliens, that's a figure that most find hard to believe. In California, the state and federal prison average is 54% ILLEGAL aliens. All, of course, in prison for serious crimes committed after they crossed our borders illegally. This doesn't quite match up with the PC view of "hard working" illegals. BTW, I support the harsh penalties on employers for knowingly hiring illegals. We either have borders - or we don't.

You make it sound as if all illegals are a vital part of our economy.

No, just the part that makes everything as cheap as we demand it to be.

You make it sound as if all naturalized Americans are a vital part of our economy. 72% of all inmates in federal prisons, according to the DOJ, are LEGAL citizens. 46% in California are LEGAL citizens. All, of course, (especially if we assume what their crimes were), for crimes committed after they were born here legally or naturalized.


What about the DRAIN on our social infrastructure?

Well, where do you want the DRAIN? At the checkout? In the prisons? At the border? Maybe to overseas jobs? There is a market drain. It will be filled whether we send these people back or not.


This doesn't quite match up with the PC view of "hard working" illegals.

It certainly does when you look at the types of jobs that are filled by illegal aliens. That doesn't match up with your PC view. Truth is, no illegal immigrant takes an American's job. They simply do a job for cheaper than Americans will do it for, that is, if they’d do it in the first place. That's called a free market. No employer wants to hire illegals. Why would they want that headache? It is illegal for them to do so. No employer wants to risk criminal charges, bad PR, political alienation, etc. just to help out some illegal aliens. No way. That’s why Wal-Mart even tried to use a middle man.

The market forces a demand for cheap efficient labor. They fill it. I'm not being political at all, I'm just explaining the market. The market demands that the jobs be done here illegally, or outsourced entirely.



We either have borders - or we don't.

Which is politics. Your PC view is that you have to be born within certain lines or follow politically generated immigration policies. That's fine and the partisans can use it all to jockey for position on CNN and Fox News. But the reality is that the illegals are here to fill a market demand. Yes, the American disconnect prevents most constituents from drawing straight lines from the products they use to the workers who get it to them, but the market will continue to work with or without their knowledge.

So, if we deport these people, do we fill the gap with outsourcing or inflation?

The market forces a demand for cheap efficient labor. They fill it. I'm not being political at all, I'm just explaining the market. The market demands that the jobs be done here illegally, or outsourced entirely.
Illegals provided minuscule benefits to the economy.
All workers without a high-school education -- illegal and otherwise -- account for only 3 percent of economic output.
Even if illegal immigrants were dominant in low-skill industries, their broader impact would be small; nearly 60 percent of cabdrivers are native-born and in only four of 473 job classifications are immigrants a majority of the workers.However, if illegal immigrants were legalized, their net annual cost to the federal government would only increase, tripling to $30 billion a year.


No, just the part that makes everything as cheap as we demand it ............
It certainly does when you look at the types of jobs that are filled by illegal aliens. That doesn't match up with your PC view. Truth is, no illegal immigrant takes an American's job......
The United States has an ample supply of native-born workers with a high-school education or less, but they are being pushed out of the labor force by illegal immigrants.

From 2000 to 2005, the proportion of high-school dropouts holding a job dropped from 53 to 48 percent, and this trend was particularly pronounced in states with the highest levels of immigration.
Nearly 80 percent of illegals have no more than a high-school degree and 60 percent have less than a high-school degree.
An immigrant without a high-school diploma -- whether legal or illegal -- consumes $89,000 more in governmental services than he pays in taxes; an immigrant with only a high-school diploma is a net cost of $31,000.
Illegals also cost the federal government $10 billion a year, state and local government lose even more. And while illegal immigrants do pay some taxes, they do not pay enough to cover their share of governmental expenses like Medicaid.

they are being pushed out of the labor force by illegal immigrants.

How? How are they "pushed out"? Because they won't do the job for less? Is it minimum wage restrictions legals won't agree to circumvent?


However, if illegal immigrants were legalized, their net annual cost to the federal government would only increase, tripling to $30 billion a year.

What would be the increase in revenue from them paying taxes?


All workers without a high-school education -- illegal and otherwise -- account for only 3 percent of economic output.

OK, but you need to connect the dots for me on that one. Is that in dollars or labor hours? Where's that source? How accurate can it be if they're not documented?


An immigrant without a high-school diploma -- whether legal or illegal -- consumes $89,000 more in governmental services than he pays in taxes; an immigrant with only a high-school diploma is a net cost of $31,000.

So, legalize them, pay them minimum wage, have them pay taxes, and pay more for the goods and services they produce or have those jobs exported.


Illegals also cost the federal government $10 billion a year, state and local government lose even more. And while illegal immigrants do pay some taxes, they do not pay enough to cover their share of governmental expenses like Medicaid.

What does a fortress border cost? I'm sure we spend that much without haveing an air tight border. Talk about cutting off our nose to spite our face.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but no one has suggested a alternative solution that doesn't have the same amount of problems just in different form.

Americans will not take many jobs at their current pay levels -- and those pay levels will not rise so long as poverty-stricken immigrants are willing to take those jobs.

Americans will not take many jobs at their current pay levels

Why are the pay levels so low?

Small businesses, wealthy individuals, and corporations (collectively: the Business Class) egg on illegal immigrants by throwing a pile of money, by immigrants standards, in their face to take jobs here in the US, pushing out the American worker by lowering wages and eliminating benefits. And the lure of a massive wage increase for illegals not relative considering that virtually all of them live in poverty, many in extreme conditions. They aren’t coming here to better their lives by US standards. They are coming here to escape poverty. Their ambition is actually desperation.

Their ambition is actually desperation.

Yeah, so screw 'em, right? That's pretty good motivation and maybe more honorable than greed, don't you think?

Ok, but what happens when these companies pay American worker wages and benefits?

Point 1 : Yep.

Point 2 : Not meaningful we are talking about a small percent of the economy.

Not meaningful we are talking about a small percent of the economy.

So the whole "taking of American jobs" thing is a pretty meaningless position, yet it is the one most used by people who are against legalization?

Did you have a link to how that 3% is calculated? That's very interesting. I wonder what the percentage would be if they were paid American wages?

This puts them at 5% of the larbor force.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189792,00.html

It's a decent article that outlines both the good, the bad, and the specious in this debate.

BDP, You keep talking about the illegals becoming legit and "paying taxes." That sounds good, except that is not what would happen! The "paying taxes" argument is a complete fabrication on the part of the illegal immigrants apologists. The truth is that, if granted amnesty, most illegal immigrants that joined the work force at minimum wage would not add a dime to the federal treasury. In fact, these low-wage workers COST the government. Many would not even meet the requirements necessary to file a return, but if they had children they would be crazy not to, as Washington would be mailing them a check after the Earned Income Tax Credit. Add to that the burden on our already over-burdened emergency rooms (doctor of choice), schools, food stamps, Medicaid, then eventually Medicare and Social Security. How could the United States afford the benefits of the welfare state to up to 25 million illegal aliens given amnesty? The answer: it couldn't and shouldn't.

Visit American Patrol (http://www.americanpatrol.com/)

Excerpt from CNN today:

Marches may mark rise in Latino power

HOUSTON, Texas (Reuters) -- Massive street marches to protest a proposed crackdown on illegal immigration have energized U.S. Hispanics and may signal a new day of Hispanic political involvement.

The demonstrations, which attracted both legal and illegal residents across the country, mean politicians may face an angry Hispanic electorate in which Republicans would be the biggest losers, activists said on Monday.
Half a million people marched in Los Angeles two weeks ago, and another half a million protested in Dallas on Sunday. On Monday, there were smaller marches in more than 60 cities, all to express displeasure with proposed legislation in Washington aimed at clamping down on illegal immigration

As happened in Los Angeles, the Dallas march stunned the organizers, who expected only 20,000 people in politically conservative Texas.

"Never in our wildest dreams did we imagine half a million people marching in a city that has 1.2 million people," said Lydia Gonzalez Welch, a board member with the League of United Latin American Citizens, or LULAC, which promoted the so-called Mega March.
"The feeling of celebration and amazement yesterday was powerful and we will make sure that power continues to be demonstrated and the local leaders will feel it," she said.
"This is the first real social movement, bottom-up,
grass-roots movement of the 21st century," longtime Hispanic activist and university professor Jose Angel Gutierrez told the Dallas Morning News.
Flexing what it hopes is new political muscle, LULAC, the largest U.S. Hispanic organization, called for supporters to boycott stores Monday and not go to work, but the results were not clear.
Organizers at all the marches, with an eye to future elections, encouraged protesters who are citizens to register to vote. They urged illegal immigrants, who cannot vote, to push those who can to exercise their right.
"We will see this transfer into political power. If we cannot change their minds, we will change them (politicians)," said Elias Bermudez, head of advocacy group Immigrants Without Borders, at a march in Phoenix, Arizona.

40 million Hispanics

There are 40 million Hispanics in the United States, although due to age and legal status, just 13 million are eligible to vote.
Of those, only 60 percent are registered to vote and turnout at the polls is usually lower than among whites and blacks, experts say.
But they are concentrated in key states such as California, Texas and Florida and, by 2020, the number of Hispanic voters nationally is expected to top 20 million.
Democrats stand to gain most from new Hispanic involvement because political analysts say that, typically, two-thirds of Hispanics vote for their party.
Despite exuberance among activists, greater Hispanic political activism is not assured because the Hispanic population is not a political monolith, experts say.
While U.S.-born Hispanics are largely sympathetic to illegal immigrants, a Pew Hispanic Center survey found that a third of them feel illegal immigrants drive wages down.
Republicans have made gains in attracting Hispanics, but could lose ground by pushing a harder line against illegal immigrants, said Southern Methodist University political scientist Cal Jillson in Dallas. They "should take a deep breath here, and ask themselves what a failure to deal with the concerns of immigrants both legal and illegal will mean for the Republican Party," he said. Republican political consultant Bill Miller in Austin agreed the party is in a difficult position.

"It's a real high risk situation for Republicans, and it's almost all down side," he said. "There is no more sacred issue to Hispanics."

BDP, You keep talking about the illegals becoming legit and "paying taxes." That sounds good, except that is not what would happen! The "paying taxes" argument is a complete fabrication on the part of the illegal immigrants apologists. The truth is that, if granted amnesty, most illegal immigrants that joined the work force at minimum wage would not add a dime to the federal treasury. In fact, these low-wage workers COST the government. Many would not even meet the requirements necessary to file a return, but if they had children they would be crazy not to, as Washington would be mailing them a check after the Earned Income Tax Credit. Add to that the burden on our already over-burdened emergency rooms (doctor of choice), schools, food stamps, Medicaid, then eventually Medicare and Social Security. How could the United States afford the benefits of the welfare state to up to 25 million illegal aliens given amnesty? The answer: it couldn't and shouldn't.

OK. So you don't want those jobs here in the first place and/or you want to reform the tax code. That's all you had to say. So, your answer to my orginal, very pragmatic question would be, you prefer deportation of illegal immigrants and outsourcing of low paying jobs. If you have no problem with outsourcing, I think you may have a solution.

BTW, I am not apologizing for anybody. I'm just talking about the realities of labor markets in the US and its effects on immigration. Playing army and passing unenforceable anti-immigration laws won't change the market. It will only shift it and manipulate it into another set of problems for people to whine about.

If I were a hispanic, I would be ashamed at what has been taking place around the country and specifically near the border. All you have to do is watch video footage of those caught trying to cross the border...jumping over fences, floating on doors, or more creatively smuggling themselves in by hiding in vehicle cavities such as a hollowed out dashboard. I would be humiliated and angered by those demeaning the nation's perception of my ethnic origins.

How can anyone with a prudent mind conscientiously support people doing the things described above? These people know crossing the border is illegal and in violation of US Customs/Laws so they're not exactly starting out favorably by my standards; but hey, I'm just a law-abiding US citizen, serviceman, registered voter, and taxpayer so what do I know? If someone commits a crime before ever setting foot on American soil, I think it sets a pattern of behavior I really don't wish to have in America. If you disregard the law coming in, you'll surely ignore it while you're here.

Why is this so difficult to understand? We're simply trying to get rid of illegal immigrants...not just Mexicans, not all immigrants, just immigrants who crossed our borders illegally. Unfortunately, politicians are more concerned with getting votes than they are about what's best for the country...and from the looks of it, most Hispanic voters are more concerned with helping illegal immigrants get into the country they have no care for. If you want to live the American way of life, contribute to it. Will anyone stand up and fight for what's best?

A lot of you have very good arguments and points of view. I'm in agreement with most of you. I'm not here to oppose anyone or stir up a debate. I tried to keep my gripe as politically neutral as possible while conveying my stance and frustration on the topic.