Nm

We don't have nearly enough churches in OKC. Let's take one of the few options we have for an entertainment venue and turn it into a church! Let's put churches everywhere!

SARCASM

Tower Theater: church
Walcourt: church
Sunshine Laundry: church
First National Center: really tall church
Wheeler District: like 5 or 6 megachurches right next to each other

Did I miss anything?

Tower Theater: church
Walcourt: church
Sunshine Laundry: church
First National Center: really tall church
Wheeler District: like 5 or 6 megachurches right next to each other

Did I miss anything?

You forgot the entertainment/church district formally known as bricktown.

We don't have nearly enough churches in OKC. Let's take one of the few options we have for an entertainment venue and turn it into a church! Let's put churches everywhere!

SARCASM

For the record, I said I was against it. However if it was an entertainment venue 90% of the time, had no other use on Sunday morning, and use by a church would provide extra revenue, I wouldn't care as long as it wouldn't create zoning issues for ABC 3 bars. Hell for all I care the church of satan could hold seances there every Sunday, as long as it's an entertainment venue most of the time and wasn't used for anything else on Sundays... I don't really care what they do with it if it helps make the entertainment venue more viable.

Tower Theater: church
Walcourt: church
Sunshine Laundry: church
First National Center: really tall church
Wheeler District: like 5 or 6 megachurches right next to each other

Did I miss anything?

The Criterion Cathedral going up in bricktown.

For the record, I said I was against it. However if it was an entertainment venue 90% of the time, had no other use on Sunday morning, and use by a church would provide extra revenue, I wouldn't care as long as it wouldn't create zoning issues for ABC 3 bars. Hell for all I care the church of satan could hold seances there every Sunday, as long as it's an entertainment venue most of the time and wasn't used for anything else on Sundays... I don't really care what they do with it if it helps make the entertainment venue more viable.

Oh I realize you did. Not sure why I responded to your quote. Should have just replied to thread.

Oh I realize you did. Not sure why I responded to your quote. Should have just replied to thread.

Ha, all good.

Who is this lady taping up signs? Which space is that? Just curious. Pretty stoked about the area.

Who is this lady taping up signs? Which space is that? Just curious. Pretty stoked about the area.

She is the owner of the building that was proposed to house the live music venue (I assume)... it's the building to the east of and attached to the Tower Theater.

She is the owner of the building that was proposed to house the live music venue (I assume)... it's the building to the east of and attached to the Tower Theater.

That is correct.

From the Gazette:

Neighborhood businesses, including Tower Theatre, are on upswing

In a city in which community forums to plan neighborhood business and community development result in standing-room-only crowds, few things excite the locals more than the promise of what the future holds.

“You can’t make people care about their community, and you can’t force people to look ahead in the future, but that’s what we have here in Oklahoma City,” said Aubrey Hammontree, the city’s planning director, who said her job is made easier because of the excitement citizens have for planning for the future.

Wheeler District

When planners were in town this summer to help with the creation of the new Wheeler District development southwest of downtown, many said record-breaking numbers of people attended forums to discuss what the area should look like.

Planning sessions like those for the Wheeler District, block parties like Open Streets OKC and Better Block OKC and online forums such as OKCTalk, which includes dozens of chat threads on new development around town, are popular here in ways not seen elsewhere.

“This is a special time because of what’s going on in Oklahoma City,” Hammontree said. “And because people care.”

Excitement in the future is all about realizing what has been done in the past, Hammontree said. It’s easier to anticipate a redevelopment plan or new building after witnessing the success of similar projects in other areas of the city.

“People have seen what it can look like when we invest in ourselves,” Hammontree said.

Tower Theatre

For example, the excitement created this month when new owners emerged for the vacant Tower Theatre on 23rd Street might have been nonexistent without prior positive growth experiences in the surrounding neighborhood.

Owners David Wanzer, Ben Sellers and Jonathan Dodson plan to turn the historic building into a mixed-use development, which includes the restoration of the old theater.

All three say they have witnessed not only what the passion for development means for citizens, but how it can help when it comes to securing financing.

“There is a good group of bankers here who understand the urban community,” Wanzer said.

Development

Dodson said the exodus by many residents and developers to the suburbs 20 years ago has created a vacuum that allows a new generation to come in with new ideas and plans.“

“You don’t see this in every city,” Dodson said.

Dodson, who has helped secure funding for many urban renewal projects in OKC, said the excitement citizens have for new development can help just as much as strong traffic counts in retail studies.

“If I have an immediate connection to a neighborhood, I am going to fight [for it],” Dodson said. “People really care because they realize this stuff actually matters.”

Another unique aspect of OKC might be how smaller projects, like the Tower Theatre, create more buzz than large-scale development, such as the announcement of a new skyscraper.

“[People] feel more of a connectivity to these smaller projects that fill in the gaps of the urban fabric, and they can relate to a smaller scale project because it’s their community,” Wanzer said.

Momentum

In addition to the coming redevelopment of the Tower Theatre, other street-level projects in the works include The Rise, a mixed-use development a few from blocks from the theater on 23rd Street. There is also the Main Street Arcade (another Wanzer project), the Mideke Building restoration in Bricktown and a new restaurant and office building in the Paseo Arts District.

There are also larger projects, such as three or four new apartment and hotel buildings at over 20 stories downtown, at the site of the old Stage Center theater.

In his office at City Hall, Brent Bryant, OKC’s economic development program manager, has a satellite photo of downtown OKC on his wall. It’s only two years old, but it’s already out of date.

“This is there now, and this is also here,” Bryant says pointing out vacant lots or old buildings on the map that are now home to new developments. “Then you have this going in over here.”

OKC’s continued revival has been well documented, but as the number of new buildings and renovation projects increases, so does the excitement from city planners, developers and residents for what the future holds.

“This is really exciting stuff,” Bryant said. “So much is changing.”

http://okgazette.com/2014/10/29/neighborhood-businesses-including-tower-theatre-are-on-upswing/

^ should this be cited?

^ should this be cited?

Yep, my mistake. I added that it was from the Gazette.

9467

Just going to leave this old picture here.

Great shot.

Just shows how un-American and wimpy our forefathers were. Driving those cars, but also walking down the street. What happened to them? I thought they were all tough men?

http://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9467&stc=1

Just going to leave this old picture here.

Glad to see that the neon asian market had a chance to improve the look of that corner...

Glad to see that the neon asian market had a chance to improve the look of that corner...

I wonder if that gem is still hiding underneath that neon crap...

I wish there was a way to restore that old rooftop. It's amazing. I love european village looking architecture like that.

I wonder if that gem is still hiding underneath that neon crap...

Nope. That picture looks like it is a solid two stories and now it looks like it is just one story. The second part definitely isn't under there, but the original first floor might be.

I was drawn to the sign for Frances Food Shop Delicatessen. I had never heard of that before.

I remember going in to Sound Warehouse and buying my first cassette tape at age 9 or 10 there. Not sure, but that neon facade was there when it was the record store, just not neon.

I remember going in to Sound Warehouse and buying my first cassette tape at age 9 or 10 there. Not sure, but that neon facade was there when it was the record store, just not neon.

Sorry to derail, but that made me think how hard it was the other morning trying to explain to my 7-year old what a cassette tape was. I'll have to see if I have any old ones stashed somewhere.

Getting busy:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10947322_789619341106109_8156954254535969188_n.jpg ?oh=e0923ea4b2b61985c8448cc71ac7c57a&oe=55651659&__gda__=1431864709_2f88e38692705c9a6ee2e0bc29ae898 3

At least there's some demo going on. It's something that should have been done with the last dozen owners of the place that promised a revitalization. I'm just so jaded by the past owners (like the FNC), I'm still gonna be a non-believer until I see a finished product with the doors open. We've had so many people own it with other posters here saying "no this guy is different, he's gonna do it" and then it flops and it's up for sale.

Pete,

Any more pictures showing the progress?

Although no leases have been formally signed, the ownership group is working towards getting an operator for a bar that will be located at the far east end of the theater.

They've submitted these building permits in order to get a jump on the ABC-3 process.

Will be a very small bar area on the ground floor (ala the awesome Sidecar) and a larger area on the 2nd level.

And notice the bar sign will be a near replica of the original sign on that space.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/towerbar4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/towerbar1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/towerbar2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/towerbar3.jpg

One other thing to note... On the bar's second level, they will be adding back windows on either side of the iconic theater sign and the main bar area will overlook this feature, would should be really cool.

So I was in Guernsey Park the other day and I was asking about the status of the Korean restaurant to the GM and he said they were actually on hold for that while they finalize a new bar concept that they will be doing on 23rd but that they aren't ready to give out any details on it yet. He specifically said that it was something that is much needed in the area and unlike any other concept in the city. I wonder if this is it.

So I was in Guernsey Park the other day and I was asking about the status of the Korean restaurant to the GM and he said they were actually on hold for that while they finalize a new bar concept that they will be doing on 23rd but that they aren't ready to give out any details on it yet. He specifically said that it was something that is much needed in the area and unlike any other concept in the city. I wonder if this is it.

Based on what I've heard and unless something has changed, the guys with Guernsey will not operate this bar. Another group local to the urban core area is behind this.

Good to know. I asked if they were going into the old Cee&Cee space and he didn't even know what I was talking about.

Speaking of bars...I saw on Facebook that the church planning on moving in next door to the Tower Theater has begun demoing the interior at the 421 NW 23 building - https://www.facebook.com/OKCCommunityChurch/photos/a.132128323601396.29364.123194177828144/497366873744204/?type=1&fref=nf&pnref=story

Any updates on if they've found away to circumvent the "church" status that would prevent nearby developments from acquiring ABC-3 liquor licenses once they begin services?

Speaking of bars...I saw on Facebook that the church planning on moving in next door to the Tower Theater has begun demoing the interior at the 421 NW 23 building - https://www.facebook.com/OKCCommunityChurch/photos/a.132128323601396.29364.123194177828144/497366873744204/?type=1&fref=nf&pnref=story

Any updates on if they've found away to circumvent the "church" status that would prevent nearby developments from acquiring ABC-3 liquor licenses once they begin services?

Yes, this was resolved some time ago when the church agreed not to open their doors until the liquor license was obtained.

They basically have an agreement with the Tower Theater owners, so there shouldn't be any issue.

Yes, this was resolved some time ago when the church agreed not to open their doors until the liquor license was obtained.

They basically have an agreement with the Tower Theater owners, so there shouldn't be any issue.

Yes, but what about any future development at other properties on 23rd? Even if the church waits until the Tower's establishment has opened, once they begin services there can no longer be any bars built within a football-field's length in any direction. Their compromise allows the Tower to open their bar, but cripples any potential bar developments down the road.

things happening.

10925

Yes, but what about any future development at other properties on 23rd? Even if the church waits until the Tower's establishment has opened, once they begin services there can no longer be any bars built within a football-field's length in any direction. Their compromise allows the Tower to open their bar, but cripples any potential bar developments down the road.

True but remember the liquor license is for the whole property. So if the Tower gets one, that's all they need for anything that may go in there now or in the future.

Also, remember this restriction only applies to ABC-3; full bars that don't also sell food. In reality, there are very few establishments with this sort of setup so it's not as limiting as it may seem.

True but remember the liquor license is for the whole property. So if the Tower gets one, that's all they need for anything that may go in there now or in the future.

Also, remember this restriction only applies to ABC-3; full bars that don't also sell food. In reality, there are very few establishments with this sort of setup so it's not as limiting as it may seem.

Correct me if I am wrong. But I believe the abc 3 zoning covers the building forever. However that does not allow you to serve booze. Each establishment has to get a abc3 able license also. And those don't outlive restaurants. So if this bar was to die and cease operation. A new bar would no longer be able to get an abc 3

Correct me if I am wrong. But I believe the abc 3 zoning covers the building forever. However that does not allow you to serve booze. Each establishment has to get a abc3 able license also. And those don't outlive restaurants. So if this bar was to die and cease operation. A new bar would no longer be able to get an abc 3

Honestly, I'm not sure of how that works with ABLE when there is a change in bar operators.

But I do know the zoning change is tied to the overall property and lasts forever, unless there is another zoning change requested by the owners.

Right but as Bricktown (all zoned abc3). Showed. Abc3 zoning. Doesn't mean you can get an able abc 3 license. When the school opened much of Bricktown could not. Until state able laws were changed

Need to change ABLE laws in urban areas. I feel like Western is hurt by this with Churches on either end of the district and Horace Mann right there as well.

The able license around the property is correct. And the license cannot be transferred like others states. The smart move would be for the tower guys to own the corps in which the liquor licenses are held. The old cee cee spot I've had interest in ever since Marty bought the block all those years ago. Would make a slick bar. It made me very sad to see the glossy black tile stripped off.

I think you can expect a change in abc 3 population on 23rd. When you pepper in so much great food options it starts becoming unnecessary to need to compete in the food market and just sling booze.

Construction photos from the Tower twitter feed:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHjuZhHUkAEP1T1.jpg:large

Need to change ABLE laws in urban areas. I feel like Western is hurt by this with Churches on either end of the district and Horace Mann right there as well.

It should at least be done by protest only in the case of churches. Maybe once an application is placed, churches within a certain proximity are notified and they basically have an allotted amount of time to protest. If they don't really care, like in this case, then the business can have its license. I can understand wanting to keep it rigid where schools are concerned, but if the neighborhood church doesn't care, why should the law?

This is of the upstairs offices; original doors (from Fitzsimmons Architects):

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/s960x960/11174347_10153468476338804_3164753298943323060_o.j pg

^^^^ Beautiful

Pretty awesome to finally see some legitimate work going on here! I feel as though this is one of those projects that will "complete" OKC Talk for us old timers. (The other being AICC or transit)

Here here Spartan. I'm excited to see some work going on inside for a change. I haven't held out much hope for years on this with developer after developer after developer. If nothing else, at least we have scaffolding inside now.

it seems difficult to think that with the redevelopment of 23rd, that a place like this would be anything but a success.

Here here Spartan. I'm excited to see some work going on inside for a change. I haven't held out much hope for years on this with developer after developer after developer. If nothing else, at least we have scaffolding inside now.

it seems difficult to think that with the redevelopment of 23rd, that a place like this would be anything but a success.

Yeah, I think there's little IF left and now it's all WHEN.

I haven't held out much hope for years on this with developer after developer after developer. If nothing else, at least we have scaffolding inside now.


The property was owned by the same group since 2005 until very recently. So, it was one developer for almost a decade. And, they restored the sign and got it working when there was almost nothing happening on 23rd Street. Also, they had plans drawn up for restoration which are now pretty much being used. And then, they placed it in the best possible hands.

As soon as the new group closed the sale, they already had construction financing in place and almost immediately started work.


This property should absolutely not be used as an example of over-promise and under-deliver, bait-and-switch and all the other things people want to trot out when they are in the mood to bash redevelopment in the urban core.

Pete, not to be a downer, but they aren't the first group to come in and make promises on the place. And after 10 years of ownership, I don't know that I would call it fully-financed progress. I'll reserve that for when it's done and open for occupancy.....aint over till the fat lady sings. I agree that in 2005, 23rd was not what it is now (that's when I graduated from OCU so I'm well aware of what 23rd was like then). What I was saying was, that now that 23rd is revitalizing so well, it's a prime time to get this pig kicked and finish it off because it will do well now.

Pete, not to be a downer, but they aren't the first group to come in and make promises on the place. And after 10 years of ownership, I don't know that I would call it fully-financed progress. I'll reserve that for when it's done and open for occupancy.....aint over till the fat lady sings. I agree that in 2005, 23rd was not what it is now (that's when I graduated from OCU so I'm well aware of what 23rd was like then). What I was saying was, that now that 23rd is revitalizing so well, it's a prime time to get this pig kicked and finish it off because it will do well now.

But it is fully financed?

Pete, not to be a downer, but they aren't the first group to come in and make promises on the place. And after 10 years of ownership, I don't know that I would call it fully-financed progress. I'll reserve that for when it's done and open for occupancy.....aint over till the fat lady sings. I agree that in 2005, 23rd was not what it is now (that's when I graduated from OCU so I'm well aware of what 23rd was like then). What I was saying was, that now that 23rd is revitalizing so well, it's a prime time to get this pig kicked and finish it off because it will do well now.

I can't even make sense of what you are saying here.

To restate: There was ONE developer that owned this property for almost 10 years, brought in an architect to develop plans and refurbished and turned on the iconic sign. Then, he sold to a group who owns it now that is taking those plans, already had construction financing in place when the bought it, started work immediately and are currently well along in construction and pretty much has tenants all lined up.

The whole situation has turned out in the best possible way and in no way represents 'failed promises' or anything else remotely negative.

^^^^^^^
Exactly right. And I have never been afraid to call out an iffy deal on this board. My early doubts about Bricktown Towers earned me much scorn, for instance. The pronouncements you are making regarding Tower Theater are very poorly-informed, bombermwc. We'll just leave it at that.

If you'd like to make a proposition wager on this one, send me a PM. I'll give you big odds.

Here here Spartan. I'm excited to see some work going on inside for a change. I haven't held out much hope for years on this with developer after developer after developer. If nothing else, at least we have scaffolding inside now.

it seems difficult to think that with the redevelopment of 23rd, that a place like this would be anything but a success.

My remark was more that it is finally happening. I see actual construction happening for once, so this is clearly what I needed to see while I was in "wait and see" mode. I, like you, never had much confidence in the previous developers since Greg Banta who was such an exciting flash in the pan. That said, I was always very hopeful just because this is one building that has grand slam potential written all over it. Sometimes a 2-story landmark does beat a 20-story skyscraper or 8-story parking facility.

If this property is revitalized, the community will roll out to support it. We need more quality developments, less quantity of developments.

Pete, not to be a downer, but they aren't the first group to come in and make promises on the place. And after 10 years of ownership, I don't know that I would call it fully-financed progress. I'll reserve that for when it's done and open for occupancy.....aint over till the fat lady sings. I agree that in 2005, 23rd was not what it is now (that's when I graduated from OCU so I'm well aware of what 23rd was like then). What I was saying was, that now that 23rd is revitalizing so well, it's a prime time to get this pig kicked and finish it off because it will do well now.

Yeah, based on what I know from my sources involved with this, no one has any reason to worry. This is going to turn out way cooler than I think most of the posters here realize. No doubt that it will be the game changer that it needs to be for Uptown.

Pete, not to be a downer, but they aren't the first group to come in and make promises on the place

Maybe not the first, but definitely the best. They aren't really just making promises as they actually have the resources in place to implement the plan. There are always potential problems to any project and unforeseen and uncontrollable forces that can come into play, but the day the new developers took over the project basically advanced more over night than it had in 5 years. This isn't just a labor of love for this group. They have the financing, the experience, and a comprehensive plan for the whole complex that greatly increases its viability. Healthy skepticism is always a good thing, but, at this point, I'd say this project is in as good a shape as anything else in the city.

^^^^^^^
Exactly. These are well-funded, PROFESSIONAL developers, as opposed to would-be developers. They already have a track record, one that is getting more impressive every day, beyond this project.

I was at the concert that represented the final hurrah for the Tower back in like 2000. The scumbag promoter oversold the Slipknot concert, and the Fire Marshall came and had to shut it down. There was damn near a riot. The next day, the record store next door to the Tower (also owned by aforementioned scumbag) was closed and never opened again, as the guy went into hiding.

The sidewalk outside:

10992

Lookin good!

They are deep into the reno now (from the Fitzsimmons Architects FB page):

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11698603_10153513838788804_1719775094973808582_n.j pg?oh=af17c1e3d94b47403def8c8ab6883ddd&oe=5620EB65

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11700878_10153513838808804_1105776570829586132_n.j pg?oh=28eead3fdd01af9321bcb2adec7420e1&oe=562F1474