If the Bible isn't true in its entirety, then how does one choose what parts to believe and what parts not to believe? If I left it up to myself, I'd surely choose the "wrong part" as truth... then what?

Who says the Bible isn't true in its entirety?

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Uncertainty is part of life. There is very little that I am certain about. Most of what I believe is tinged by various shades of uncertainty -- and I'm quite comfortable with that. It makes it much easier to be wrong :)

Uncertainty is hardly a reason to jump to such a hasty conclusion that 'Because some of it's true, all of it must be'.

A cursory examination of just how the original canon was assembled in the first place -- some 300 years after the passing of Christ, by a committee and by a margin of 5 votes, declared to be the new 'state religion' by the man who made all of that happen.. well, Marx said it best "Religion is the opiate of the masses." To me, it looks like an exercise in social engineering more than anything else.

Am I still a Christian? Yes. Do I think the Bible is valuable in helping to know what being a Christian is? Yes -- it's just not the final word. I'm actually quite happy with there being no final word -- and in the end, there's only one final word that really matters :)

I really don't expect St. Peter at the pearly gates to start quoting to me which holy ordinances I was found to be in violation of according to section, subsection, chapter and verse. I would rather expect to be evaluated on the whole as to whether I tried to live a good life, or whether I was little more than a hedonist. Am I certain of that? Not at all.

Here's a thought...

I'll bet if God is God and He wanted the Bible the way He wanted it, then He would make sure that happens and humans couldn't do anything about it no matter what we did. If God is God then He is sovereign and He planned for the Bible to take the course it has. That is, if you believe the part that talks about all scripture being God-breathed.

I was just curious about how you (mainly Midtowner and whomever else believes that way, because of a previous thread post) felt on deciding which parts are true.. I, personally, didn't jump to the conclusion that because some of it is true, therefore it must all be true. I believe that it is all true, regardless of "how" it came to being, I believe that ALL scripture is God breathed... I believe He knew what He was doing when the Bible ended up the way it ended up, and He planned for it to end up that way! Why would He give us parts that might be true or might not be true and then have us rely on our intelligence to try and muddle through it? I do believe that now, we don't know "everything", but one day we will when we get to heaven. And, you are very right that in the end that there is only one final word that matters... God's!! I'm just thankful that when I stand before His throne, that it won't be all the "good" stuff I've done (because He and lots of other people know that I don't do a whole lot of good, and I definitely do my fair share of hedonistic acts!), it won't be how hard I've tried... it will ONLY be because of God's gift to me, guilty of sin as I am that I am able to enter into His kingdom! That, I am glad, I can be certain of...!

They have a phrase that describes believing something is inerrant solely because it says that it's inerrant -- circular reasoning.

Luke, if God had wanted the Bible to be the way it was, do you think that he would have relied on a vote at the Council of Trent that won on a margin of 5??? I know that he 'Works in mysterious ways,' but that's cutting a bit too close for me.

I suppose that the validity of all of it depends on whether or not an individual does believe that scripture is God-breathed.

In my lifetime, whenever I have heard that something is "God-breathed," I have fully expected to hear that XYZ needs my help to save its great ministry, won't I please call that 1-800 number?

Let me put it to you this way:

Why do you think that the scripture is God-breathed? (assuming that you do)

ETA:

osupa:

So am I reading you right in that you use the excuse that you are saved by faith to lead a hedonistic lifestyle and not so much focus on 'good acts?'

They have a phrase that describes believing something is inerrant solely because it says that it's inerrant -- circular reasoning.

Luke, if God had wanted the Bible to be the way it was, do you think that he would have relied on a vote at the Council of Trent that won on a margin of 5??? I know that he 'Works in mysterious ways,' but that's cutting a bit too close for me.

I suppose that the validity of all of it depends on whether or not an individual does believe that scripture is God-breathed.

In my lifetime, whenever I have heard that something is "God-breathed," I have fully expected to hear that XYZ needs my help to save its great ministry, won't I please call that 1-800 number?

Let me put it to you this way:

Why do you think that the scripture is God-breathed? (assuming that you do)

I think that's where faith comes in.. I agree there's a certain circular reasoning that can be derived if you view it the way you do, Midtowner. I believe all scripture to be God breathed because that is what is says in the Bible, which I believe to be infallible.. and it's because of faith (that's what breaks the circle).

What's 5 votes to God? 105 or 5, it's still His will!

What I still would like to know, is which parts of the Bible do you read/apply to life and which parts do you disagree with?

ETA:

osupa:

So am I reading you right in that you use the excuse that you are saved by faith to lead a hedonistic lifestyle and not so much focus on 'good acts?'

Oh, no! Not at all, but I'm not perfect! I don't use God's gift to do things I know are wrong! I know that I'm going to mess up, that's myself. Like I said earlier, everyday, it's a struggle to die to myself and live as Christ. I just don't live my life in uncertainity about whether or not I'm going to go to heaven.. God's not up there ready to zap me as soon as I do something wrong! He loves me in spite of myself! Paul talks about it in Corinthians (there you'd have to believe that the Bible is true) because the corinthians were trying to justify their behavior.

I think that's where faith comes in.. I agree there's a certain circular reasoning that can be derived if you view it the way you do, Midtowner. I believe all scripture to be God breathed because that is what is says in the Bible, which I believe to be infallible.. and it's because of faith (that's what breaks the circle).

Or rather, it's faith that induces you to believe in the circular logic. At any rate, it is what it is. Faith or circular logic -- both monickers are equally accurate.



What's 5 votes to God? 105 or 5, it's still His will!


If you say so :) Strange that an all powerful God couldn't convince everyone at such an important juncture, and stranger still that the ancient church used such forceful means to destroy the Arian and Gnostic movements.

Also, I've been wrong, I got my church history confused, I'm talking about the Council of Nicea. The Council of Trent was in the 1500's in response to the Protestant Reformation.



What I still would like to know, is which parts of the Bible do you read/apply to life and which parts do you disagree with?

I'm not sure that I could give you chapter and verse except for maybe after the fact :)

As far as Jesus' overall message of forgiveness, avoiding acts which harm others, not being a hippocrite, etc., I make a valiant effort. See, I still believe in the existance of a 'natural law,' which is something that exists yet is unwritten.

You know when you're doing something bad -- not because it's in the Bible, but because you have a moral compass perhaps something innate, or perhaps someting learned. I always try to follow mine and it rarely leads me astray. Am I perfect? I don't claim to be. Do I try? Always.

If you say so :) Strange that an all powerful God couldn't convince everyone at such an important juncture, and stranger still that the ancient church used such forceful means to destroy the Arian and Gnostic movements.

Also, I've been wrong, I got my church history confused, I'm talking about the Council of Nicea. The Council of Trent was in the 1500's in response to the Protestant Reformation.

Well, I don't know what God was thinking.. but I do know He has a plan and I'm not going to question it because He knows everything that was, is and is to come.. which is way more than I ever will!!



I'm not sure that I could give you chapter and verse except for maybe after the fact :)

As far as Jesus' overall message of forgiveness, avoiding acts which harm others, not being a hippocrite, etc., I make a valiant effort. See, I still believe in the existance of a 'natural law,' which is something that exists yet is unwritten.

You know when you're doing something bad -- not because it's in the Bible, but because you have a moral compass perhaps something innate, or perhaps someting learned. I always try to follow mine and it rarely leads me astray. Am I perfect? I don't claim to be. Do I try? Always.

Where do you believe that that innate moral compass came from? Do you believe the part of the Bible that talks about Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil? What about the over-all message of Christ's death, burial and resurrection? Just curious if you believe in that, or not.

Well, I don't know what God was thinking.. but I do know He has a plan and I'm not going to question it because He knows everything that was, is and is to come.. which is way more than I ever will!!

You don't know what God was thinking? I'll buy that, but there you go again with the circular reasoning.. or faith (again, both names fit). You're saying that since it happened, God must have caused it, and because God's always right, what happened must have been right. Don't be afraid to say that you're justified by faith -- that works! Do however at least be honest with yourself as to the logical pitfalls in your argument.



Where do you believe that that innate moral compass came from? Do you believe the part of the Bible that talks about Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil? What about the over-all message of Christ's death, burial and resurrection? Just curious if you believe in that, or not.

I said that it might be innate. I also said that it could be due to my outstanding upbringing. I tend to favor the later, especially after I take notice of some individuals without such a moral compass often having a very... lacking.. upbringing.

As to why I call myself a Christian, I affirm the entirety of the Nicene Creed. It seems as good a statement of faith as any and I base my belief on faith alone (and that's all I need, you'll find me very unapologetic on this point).

At some point am I uncertain as to its truth? I could scarecly call myself a thinking person if I never asked questions.

About the Creation Myth, I think it's just that -- a myth. For one thing, there are two creation stories in Genesis. One is the Adam and Eve, the other is the "Great Flood" that the Babylonians did far more with (see Gilgamesh). Based on the science and empirical evidence available to us, I find it hard to imagine that anyone could believe that the creation myth was anything more than allegorical.

-- Where did Kane and Abel find their wives?

O.K. I'm tappin' out of my own arguement... My faith (which I won't apologize for either) is such that I believe the Bible.. once again we don't agree! I haven't devoted enough time to research all the theories out there, and all my arguements against them (if they contradcit it) will come from the Bible! Once again, it's the blind child-like faith! Thanks for the challeneges, though, Midtowner... and I know there are many more debates that could be had about many more subjects. I'm bowing out (hopefully with some grace) now, and I state simply that I stand on Christ's blood and that I need no other arguement! I'm so thankful for what He has done and will continue to do, and while I won't lie and say that I've never had doubts and questions, I will not qeustion His authority in my life and that He is my Lord and Savior! I think that when we get to heaven, all those things will be revealed! I can't debate that there are questions and uncertainties in life, but that will never change the fact that God is in control and that will never change His plan! I'm just going to keep on living my life with the abundant joy that He has given me until "I fly away" (to paraphrase the song!).

There is alot of reading here that I dont have time for but I'll stick to my beleifs, and those are as long as you are a good person and are not raping,pilaging and murdering I think you have a good "life" waiting for you on the "other side".

...As to why I call myself a Christian, I affirm the entirety of the Nicene Creed. It seems as good a statement of faith as any and I base my belief on faith alone (and that's all I need, you'll find me very unapologetic on this point).

At some point am I uncertain as to its truth? I could scarecly call myself a thinking person if I never asked questions.

About the Creation Myth, I think it's just that -- a myth...

Midtowner, do you fully believe the Nicene Creed?
Or do you believe in some of it?

Do you believe in absolute truth? In "any" absolute truth?
(Laws, Anatomy, ...?)

Luke, if God had wanted the Bible to be the way it was, do you think that he would have relied on a vote at the Council of Trent that won on a margin of 5??? I know that he 'Works in mysterious ways,' but that's cutting a bit too close for me.

I'm not Luke, but to answer your question, Yes!

Midtowner, do you fully believe the Nicene Creed?
Or do you believe in some of it?

Do you believe in absolute truth? In "any" absolute truth?
(Laws, Anatomy, ...?)

Nope, he absolutely doesn't believe in absolute truth! LOL!

So am I reading you right in that you use the excuse that you are saved by faith to lead a hedonistic lifestyle and not so much focus on 'good acts?'

If you have truly been "born again" you won't desire the old flesh. So if you're living a hedonistic lifestyle, I have to question one of two things? 1. Were you ever born again to begin with? 2. Have you fallen away and lost your salvation?

If you say so :) Strange that an all powerful God couldn't convince everyone at such an important juncture, and stranger still that the ancient church used such forceful means to destroy the Arian and Gnostic movements.

Maybe it was God's way of testing people's faith, like your own faith?

BTW, strange too that Jesus simply didn't flee from death. He could've escaped from the cross, if He were all powerful, right?

You sounds just like Judas, Midtowner. Look where Judas is at now.

Out of curiousity, where is Judas now, Jack?

I'll jump in, just for grins and giggles.

I don't really believe any of it to be true. Great story, just too farfetched for me. I've had this discussion quite a number of times with future Mr. bandnerd, and he understands, though he doesn't agree with me, and that's fine. I'm a good person; I don't hurt people intentionally, I don't steal, I give to charity when I can. But I just can't believe the Bible to be true.

Preparing for flames...from the board, not elsewhere, mind you.

No flames from us Ms. Bandnerd.. just curious as to why you don't believe the Bible to be true?

Like I said--just seems too farfetched for me. I think it's interesting stuff, don't get me wrong...but people rising from the dead, immaculate conceptions, holy grails...just not for me.

My family wasn't strongly religious, either. Sundays were usually "family" days for us, spent at home with our family enjoying a good comedy and some good food and company rather than at the church. Religion wasn't something we talked about a lot. Everyone had their own wildly different beliefs, and that was seen as okay in my family.

If you have truly been "born again" you won't desire the old flesh. So if you're living a hedonistic lifestyle, I have to question one of two things? 1. Were you ever born again to begin with? 2. Have you fallen away and lost your salvation?

1) Not "born again" according to what you'd probably believe. I'm Catholic. We have Baptism, and in a sense, we're all "born again" if we profess to be Christians. But was I Baptised in some sort of protestent church by full submersion, etc.? Nope

2) Is that a question or a statement? How would you or I know whether anyone has fallen away and lost their salvation?

And how do you know I live a hedonistic lifestyle? Seems like an assumption (an incorrect one) on your part.

Maybe it was God's way of testing people's faith, like your own faith?

By killing dissenters? Enforcing the state religion at the point of a sword? The destruction of heretics and their documents? The Lord works in mysterious ways indeed! Jihad!



BTW, strange too that Jesus simply didn't flee from death. He could've escaped from the cross, if He were all powerful, right?

A valid question, but if you affirm the Nicene Creed, you'd have to agree that His sacrifice was why he was here.



You sounds just like Judas, Midtowner. Look where Judas is at now.

How does Judas sound(s), and where is he now? That must be in one of those Apocryphal books or something...

Luke, if God had wanted the Bible to be the way it was, do you think that he would have relied on a vote at the Council of Trent that won on a margin of 5???

Why not? You obviously have assumptions about how God should work. So do I. My assumption is that God will pass His Word to us however he wants and He'll protect it (again, if He says it's God breathed). How it got to us doesn't seem to me the issue. That it got to us is.

Why not? You obviously have assumptions about how God should work. So do I. My assumption is that God will pass His Word to us however he wants and He'll protect it (again, if He says it's God breathed). How it got to us doesn't seem to me the issue. That it got to us is.

Frame the issue any way you like, but if you think that you make a cursory study of early church and early Biblical history and can then conclude that something called the "New International Version" or whatever is "god breathed," then you are subscribing to mythology and magic. It's okay to believe in miracles, magic, etc. just as long as you're honest in stating that you do.

The Council of Nicea is commonly referred to when talking about how the Bible got to us today. This article sheds some light on the misconceptions and assumptions associated with that Council. This is a research article by an orthodox Christian organization called the Christian Research Institute.

http://www.equip.org/free/DN206.htm

Also, Midtowner, have you ever read "Mere Christianity"? I'll bet you'd get a kick out of it. You sound like a reasonable fellow. C.S. Lewis was, too. His book really opened my eyes to the actual reality of Christianity as opposed to this "just-take-it-on-faith" idea. Absolutely, it requires faith (just as ANY worldview does). But, C.S. Lewis sure does a good job making a powerful argument from a purely natural perspective.

Luke, I'm well aware of all of that. Are you aware of the punishments afforded to heretics by the Church over the next few years? Those who didn't adopt the majority view were murdered. That's not exactly how a loving God spreads the faith. You had what was essentially a religious 'cold war' followed by a slow strangling of the loser. Was there divine intervention? I honestly hope not.

The Unitarians of today bear a lot of resemblance to the Arian church, so they have been reborn in a sense.

And no, I make plans to read such things, but these pesky law books take precedent (no pun intended).