Does anyone here attend LifeChurchTV? If so how do you like it?

I've been going there for approx 6 mo. and I love it! The very first time that I went, though, I must admit that I didn't like it at all... I thought it was too showy and that there was too much focus on the band! Boy, was my first impression wrong! After a while, I just sort of started going to the south campus, and now I love it! The praise and worship is loud with bright lights and dry ice effects, but the songs are awesome and the focus is on praising God! The message is always relevant to everyday life, and their values are to build up and send out... I haven't become involved in one yet, but there are many mission trip opportunities (local and abroad). If you have any specific questions feel free to ask!

Love it, been going there about 6-7 years! Before it exploded worldwide. I go to the N. OKC campus

I'm not a big fan of the direction these churches are going. They seem less religious and more 'self help'. I also have my differences with their theology.

I've met Craig Groeschel (the pastor), and he's a pretty nice guy. Has a degree in finance...

I'm also not a huge fan of how they have been 'franchising', but as a Catholic, I don't know if I have room to talk there :)

Love it, been going there about 6-7 years! Before it exploded worldwide. I go to the N. OKC campus
Most of these churches, like LifeChurchTV, are more charismatic (which is great) than other churches. They have more praise music with praise bands, which is one of the best ways to reach the younger generation...teens - 30ish. I agree that the music is loud, however, that is the "in" thing right now. The special effects also add to the excitement of worship.

The main thing is that the bands are playing and singing praise songs that glorify God. Plus, the message is exciting and from the Word of God. I love to see people praising the Lord with their hands lifted up toward heaven.

Get this......last Friday evening, I took a group of youth from our church to listen to 3 local bands at a local church. Just so that I could protect myself, I brought my earplugs (Yeah, I know..I'm old). The music was loud, but it was enjoyable (with my earplugs). We were there from 8 pm until 11:30 PM., and the teenagers had a wonderful time. They were clapping, raising their hands toward heaven, and singing along with the band.

We need more churches like LifeChurchTV, that can reach the younger generation and keep them in touch with their Christian lives. Okcgoddess, I would highly recommend this church.

So Keith, I guess that confirms that you feel okay with this "consumer religion" that is becoming popular? It seems that religion is now marketing -- e.g. targetting audiences, cultivating audiences, etc. just the same as IBM or someone like that would do.

To me, that whole concept is a little foreign... of course, we still chant in latin at my church :)

So Keith, I guess that confirms that you feel okay with this "consumer religion" that is becoming popular? It seems that religion is now marketing -- e.g. targetting audiences, cultivating audiences, etc. just the same as IBM or someone like that would do.

To me, that whole concept is a little foreign... of course, we still chant in latin at my church :)
I don't consider it "consumer religion." I call it a Christ centered organization that is trying to reach out to audiences that have not been reachable before. It's not marketing, it is getting the message of God to more people who would not normally attend a denominational church. Face it...many people think church is boring, however, churches like LifeChurchTV are becoming popular and taking away the "boring" aspects of a worship service. If it brings more people to accept Christ, then yes, I am for it.

"Trying to reach out to audiences that have not been reachable before."

-- that's marketing. If I were going to try and sell 7-Up to Frenchmen, I'd also have to work on a way of connecting with the French consumer. I'm sure it'd be a lot different than it would be with the American consumer (it goes well with wine and cheese?)

Just because it's a religious organization doing it doesn't change that fact. There's nothing inherently evil about marketing. It is what it is, trying to repackage grandma's religion the TV generation is absolutely marketing.

That's not important though. This is: Is Christ here to entertain us or to be contemplated, emulated, and praised? Does 'Rock and Roll Jesus' do the wrong thing by morphing religion into something more entertaining and palatable for mass consumption, tithing, etc? As to this changing of the church to meet the needs of the ever-changing flock, when is enough enough? When does it cease to be praise and instead become a spectacle/entertainment venue? I think these establishments walk a fine line.

Turning religion into an entertainment/social gathering horribly misses the point IMHO.

I'll be honest, my problem with these churches is the way they spend so much time talking about how their way of worship is so superior to the "old fogey" churches. I have heard them make fun of men wearing ties in church for example. They make fun of ritual and any other kind of worship that isn't "hip" enough. No offense to those enjoying these new churches, but I have heard them say these other things and frankly, it troubles me. I think they should be secure enough in their new "style" of worship than to resort to bashing more traditional church services.

"Trying to reach out to audiences that have not been reachable before."

-- that's marketing. If I were going to try and sell 7-Up to Frenchmen, I'd also have to work on a way of connecting with the French consumer. I'm sure it'd be a lot different than it would be with the American consumer (it goes well with wine and cheese?)

Just because it's a religious organization doing it doesn't change that fact. There's nothing inherently evil about marketing. It is what it is, trying to repackage grandma's religion the TV generation is absolutely marketing.

That's not important though. This is: Is Christ here to entertain us or to be contemplated, emulated, and praised? Does 'Rock and Roll Jesus' do the wrong thing by morphing religion into something more entertaining and palatable for mass consumption, tithing, etc? As to this changing of the church to meet the needs of the ever-changing flock, when is enough enough? When does it cease to be praise and instead become a spectacle/entertainment venue? I think these establishments walk a fine line.

Turning religion into an entertainment/social gathering horribly misses the point IMHO.

I believe that Jesus came to be all things to all people... when he came to Earth he didn't select the pharisees or religious scholars to spread the love of God. He chose people like me.. the really rotten ones. The first church.. the one in Acts was completely different than any other religious service of their time... they weren't afraid to worship God with fire, and every day the church grew by leaps and bounds. I don't believe that churches like lifechurch are "selling God". I believe that we are doing everything short of sin to reach people... to tell them of this amazing, incomprehensible love and the gift of eternal life given by God through Christ alone. I think it's time to leave religion to the pharisees and be a living, breathing church on fire!

I believe that Jesus came to be all things to all people... when he came to Earth he didn't select the pharisees or religious scholars to spread the love of God. He chose people like me.. the really rotten ones. The first church.. the one in Acts was completely different than any other religious service of their time... they weren't afraid to worship God with fire, and every day the church grew by leaps and bounds. I don't believe that churches like lifechurch are "selling God". I believe that we are doing everything short of sin to reach people... to tell them of this amazing, incomprehensible love and the gift of eternal life given by God through Christ alone. I think it's time to leave religion to the pharisees and be a living, breathing church on fire!
Unfortunately, too many preaching the "prosperity" gospel are living lives of wealth and splendor, and using their churches as entrepreneural vehicles. And, there is no denying that they are mostly found in the non-denominational entertainment churches. That's also not found in the church in Acts.

Write.. I know it's in the Bible somewhere.. the part where Christ gets driven around in a limo on Saturday from sermon to sermon? Somewhere towards the back I think.

I do think that churches have to evolve and meet the needs of changing society. It's an optional thing for most people - if they don't enjoy a church or get anything out of it, they can leave and go to another church or stop going altogether. I think the churches are smart in trying to keep their membership level high using methods that some may not be familiar. Reaching teens and young adults has always been a challenge I imagine.. this allows them to worship in a way that appeals to them. Yeah, I guess some could go overboard with pyrotechniques and megabands but as long as the message is getting across and people are praising God, I don't see the problem.

And church corruption has been around from the very beginning so I don't think the mega churches aren't creating this particular problem.

I don't think I suggested that they were corrupt.

And yes, churches do change for the times... I mean the Catholic church back in the 60's actually started doing mass in the vernacular (it used to be done in Latin). We aso invented church corruption, but no matter :)

I don't question the motives of Mr. Groeschel, but I do question the hearts of the attendees of the church. Do they feel as if they must be entertained in order to attend a praise & worship service? A friend of mine in college worked at Life Church as a full time video editor.. All I'm saying is that personally, I think that it leads Christians away from the true message of Christianity -- forgiveness, love, etc. and instead turns the religion into a spectacle/social event.

Actually it's the message that keeps me going back! As I said before, I didn't like it the first time that I went... I thought that it was too showy... kind of along your line of thinking, Midtowner. But they truly preach Christ crucified and their emphasis is on equiping people with the power of Christ and sending them out to every nation, tounge and tribe.. to the four corners of the world! I believe that money is being used not to fund a wealthy lifestyle for the staff... if that were the case then there wouldn't be new campuses springing up all over the nation. If money was the motive, then I believe that he wouldn't have offerings where you are allowed to take from the bucket if you have a monetary need. Sure, it's a social event.. but Christ was a very social creature and even says to not give up fellowship with fellow Christians. He also knew that you can't live on fellowship alone and got away from the crowd to be alone with God, which we all need, as well... Sure, everything that the pastor says I may not a agree with... that's where searching the Bible and prayer comes into play... but he does back up his message with scripture... including the message of forgiveness!

Wow! Thank you everyone for the responses and opinions. I live about 1 mile from the LifeChurchTv in Edmond. My family has a strong hunger right now to get closer to God. We are going to LifeChurch this Sunday for our first time. My husband is very negative when it comes to churches because of the fake and hypocrite people who ruin the experience for him. This will be the first time for us to go in almost 6 years. My husband is a musician so hopefully this church can reach out to him. I hope we can enjoy this church as much as you have Osupa05.

Also I was wondering what the programs for the infants and children were like. But I guess we will find out.

okcgoddes,sthey have a program called LifeKids (at least at the south okc campus... i'm sure they have the same or something similar to that at the edmond campus). It's looks like fun.. I've often been tempted to sneak in there, but I don't think I would pass as a kid!!! I hope that you have a great experience there... if you don't, just know that there are many different types of services offered by many different places that make up the body of Christ, aka the church! Just find one that preaches nothing but the Bible!

Funny if you really think about it. This conversation has been going on for 2,000 years. :)

Wow! Thank you everyone for the responses and opinions. I live about 1 mile from the LifeChurchTv in Edmond. My family has a strong hunger right now to get closer to God. We are going to LifeChurch this Sunday for our first time. My husband is very negative when it comes to churches because of the fake and hypocrite people who ruin the experience for him. This will be the first time for us to go in almost 6 years. My husband is a musician so hopefully this church can reach out to him. I hope we can enjoy this church as much as you have Osupa05.

Also I was wondering what the programs for the infants and children were like. But I guess we will find out.
I think going to LifeChurch this Sunday is a great decision for you. Unfortunately, many people quit attending church because of the "fake" and "hypocritical" Christians. The good news is that most of the Christians that attend church are true believers, and live Christian lives 7 days a week.

I know many people who quit attending church because of the hypocrites. That's a cop out to me, because the hypocrites will be answering to God on Judgement day for their actions, and we will be judged by our own actions. I am certainly not going to let a hypocrite bring me down........I'm just going to pray for them.

I wish you the best and pray that your family gets back involved in church and that your husband enjoys the great worship and praise music that is played. It's not "entertainment," it is worship.

Writeranger, have you honestly heard a church bash another for wearing ties. Because we're on a lifechurch debate i need to clear up for everyone reading this post that Lifechurch would not tolerate such closed minded people to speak out for their congregation. I wear a suit/tie to lifechurch every sunday in Stillwater & i'm 21 years old. Just because some feel lifechurch is entertainment does not mean a sense of reference for Christ does not exist in the realm of people of all ages who enjoy a revolutionary new concept of church. Lifechurch does not "target" the correct age demographic to be considered a marketing business. I mean come on, who would seek out the college kids for tithing! Perhaps this church doesn't care about their financial return when they invest in a place like Stillwater. We're not exactly Edmond yuppies ya know.(no offense)Either way, the amount of success Stillwaters campus has had is compelling enough to build a new church home for us. Plans are being finalized.

Interesting discussions here


The main thing is that the bands are playing and singing praise songs that glorify God.


Two comments I would like to add. First and foremost, church is not about people and their preferences. The main thing is that hundreds of people are being saved and lives changed every weekend at LIFE. 2 weeks ago, over 200 people were saved that weekend. That's powerful!! How many churches can say that. Christ called us to add unto his numbers daily. Most small churches I know haven't added in years.

Secondly, churches must continue to do things differently in a modern world to reach those who would not normally attend. Call it marketing if you will, and to some extent it is, but regardless, it works. You don't have to sell out your beliefs but you do have to change with the times, or get left behind. Christ never called us to be complacent in our faith, in fact, this is when we should worry the most if we are complacent and content. We should all be out of our comfort zones and suck up our own personal issues, because that is all they are, people's issues.

Craig has made it clear that he wants people to be "contributors" and not "consumers", whether they attend LIFE or not. That is the problem with the church as a whole in America, it is self centered and most people are consumers, wanting what they want out of church instead of pouring into it for others despite their own personal motivations

Interesting discussions here



Two comments I would like to add. First and foremost, church is not about people and their preferences. The main thing is that hundreds of people are being saved and lives changed every weekend at LIFE. 2 weeks ago, over 200 people were saved that weekend. That's powerful!! How many churches can say that. Christ called us to add unto his numbers daily. Most small churches I know haven't added in years.

Secondly, churches must continue to do things differently in a modern world to reach those who would not normally attend. Call it marketing if you will, and to some extent it is, but regardless, it works. You don't have to sell out your beliefs but you do have to change with the times, or get left behind. Christ never called us to be complacent in our faith, in fact, this is when we should worry the most if we are complacent and content. We should all be out of our comfort zones and suck up our own personal issues, because that is all they are, people's issues.

Craig has made it clear that he wants people to be "contributors" and not "consumers", whether they attend LIFE or not. That is the problem with the church as a whole in America, it is self centered and most people are consumers, wanting what they want out of church instead of pouring into it for others despite their own personal motivations
Very well said, metro. "You don't have to sell out your beliefs, but you do have to change with the times, or get left behind." Exactly. We should all get out of our comfort zones. Too many people want to know what the church can do for them, when they should be asking what they can do for the church.

It's interesting that you mention kneckties at church. God has always asked us to give him our first fruits and to look our best when we come together and worship Him. I have been a member of a southern baptist church for over 25 years, and we do not have a dress code. Why? Because we are located in an inner city, low income, neighborhood, that is rather poor. A nice shirt and a pair of nice slacks or nice jeans is the normal look at our church. Many older people wear suits and ties, however, many of the younger people can't afford suits and such.

I have been a youth leader in our church for over 6 years, and at this time, I am the "temporary" youth director until we can find a permanent one. Most of the teens that come to our church wear old blue jeans, t-shirts, and tennis shoes on Sunday morning. During the spring and summer, they wear flip flops. Sunday and Wednesday evening are very casual. Most adults wear nice slacks and a nice shirt, while others wear blue jeans and t-shirts. In the spring and summer, many people come wearing shorts (not short shorts).

The reason the youth wear what they wear is because none of them own dress pants, ties, or suits. Very few of the teenage girls own dresses. We have never, ever, turned anyone away because they didn't look "nice" enough. If that is the nicest thing they have to come and worship, then they are always welcome at our church.

Myself? I own one dress shirt, and two pairs of pants, so I am the one that attends church wearing a nice shirt, blue jeans, and Nikes. In the spring/summer, you will always see me in shorts. I feel if I try to over dress in any way, that the teenagers that I am trying to reach will think that I am too good for them because I have nicer clothes. My main focus is not clothes, but to see more of these teens that come from broken homes, accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

I'm curious, where in the Bible does it say to look our best when we come together and worship Him. I could be wrong but I don't think that is in there. Jesus accepted people as they were and did not question them for their faith or for their attire. A good discussion about appropriate attire can be found at :time http://www.twopaths.com/faq_dress.htm , while this could be debated throughout the ages, the one thing that seems to make the most sense is to dress appropriate for ones time. In our time, jeans and a t-shirt seem to be acceptable.

I think it's more based on the bringing Jesus our firstfruits (the best of the crop) verse... giving Him the best we have to offer... Yes, I believe he accepts us for who we are... we are all dirty (in every sense of the word), yet as Christians we have been washed clean by His blood.

I think it's more based on the bringing Jesus our firstfruits (the best of the crop) verse... giving Him the best we have to offer... Yes, I believe he accepts us for who we are... we are all dirty (in every sense of the word), yet as Christians we have been washed clean by His blood.
That's what I meant. There isn't anything in the Bible that talks about how to dress. Thanks, osupa05, for saying it the right way for me.

I think that can be a lose interpretation on however one wants to take it. I think what he was getting at was to pay tithes but I could be wrong

Tithing was an invention of my church (Catholic) in the middle ages.

It's good to give to an organization that does good to others, but IMHO, not mandatory. That idea God needs my money to pay a full time video editor would almost be offensive to me. That's why I go to my place, and y'all go to yours though.

America's good like that.

"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house." Malachi 3:10 So, tithing was around in the old testament (if you believe in the Bible), not an "invention" of the catholic church. God wants, doesn't need, the best we have to give him, but thank goodness for Christ's blood, becuase we'll never be good enough to earn God's love. If you believe that God is the author of everything, then He doesn't need "my" money, becuase it's not really mine.. it's His to begin with. It's mandatory to give back to God, becuase He commands it in the Bible... "you reap what you sow" (my paraphrase of II Cor. 9:6)... but, He loves a cheerful giver... "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." II Cor. 9:7 In other words, He commands us to give, but it's all about the attitude, not the amount (which brings to mind the story of the pharisees who were giving bags and bags of gold, but it was the widow who gave less than a penny (but gave it with the right attitude) that was the example given to us for how give. Nobody could ever outgive God!

osupa -- the validity of all of that hinges first on the infaliability of the Bible. That is a doctrine that I do not subscribe to.

Think about it -- does it make any sense at all to worship and call 'holy' a book that was assembled a full 300 years after the events that it described occured? (perspective: That's like me assembling a bunch of books from 1700, only without the advantage of things like libraries, computers, etc.). Further, it was all assembled in such a way as to cause further disconcert -- the final "Canon" was approved by a majority vote and a mere margin of five votes in 325 A.D. at the Council of Trent. You may believe in magic there, but I tend to be skeptical of legislative bodies and compromise -- I tend to be even more skeptical if I'm using the output of those legislative bodies as something to worship.

Do I doubt that there's at least some validity to those documents? Nope. Have I seen numerous comparisons to manuscript, examples of where meanings were changed upon translation? Yes, I have. Pretending that the word of the Bible is inherently true is circular logic (i.e. 'It's true because it says it's true'). As a matter of faith, that's one thing. Arguing as to whether or not it's a sin requires that one believe in the doctrine of inerrancy, and I don't.

Ad arguendo, let's say that I was a believer in the inerrancy of the Bible (just for pretend). Still, there is yet another threshold of faith that I must cross before arriving at the conclusion that the words in Malachi and Leviticus are binding to me as a.. let's call me a Baptist.. pretty sure that would make me one of those inerrant folks..

How about the doctrine that Christ's sacrifice washed away the bonds of the Old Covenant? The 10-percent rule can only be found in the old covenant, and there are passages in the NT to support the view that tithes are no longer required.

Without quoting them as they are too numerous (and they show context which scriptural one-liners never do), you can go here if you think it's important to investigate.

http://www.bibleinsight.com/tithing.html

I find that churches are often under the gun to collect money. They have bankers, they have massive overhead (as Lifechurch certainly does), they have huge expenses. They were also probably brought up under the view that tithing is required without really examining the issue. Do I think it's good to support a ministry if I think that the money will be well spent in helping people? Sure. Do I think it's a sin not to? Nope.

osupa -- the validity of all of that hinges first on the infaliability of the Bible. That is a doctrine that I do not subscribe to.

Think about it -- does it make any sense at all to worship and call 'holy' a book that was assembled a full 300 years after the events that it described occured? (perspective: That's like me assembling a bunch of books from 1700, only without the advantage of things like libraries, computers, etc.). Further, it was all assembled in such a way as to cause further disconcert -- the final "Canon" was approved by a majority vote and a mere margin of five votes in 325 A.D. at the Council of Trent. You may believe in magic there, but I tend to be skeptical of legislative bodies and compromise -- I tend to be even more skeptical if I'm using the output of those legislative bodies as something to worship.

Do I doubt that there's at least some validity to those documents? Nope. Have I seen numerous comparisons to manuscript, examples of where meanings were changed upon translation? Yes, I have. Pretending that the word of the Bible is inherently true is circular logic (i.e. 'It's true because it says it's true'). As a matter of faith, that's one thing. Arguing as to whether or not it's a sin requires that one believe in the doctrine of inerrancy, and I don't.

Ad arguendo, let's say that I was a believer in the inerrancy of the Bible (just for pretend). Still, there is yet another threshold of faith that I must cross before arriving at the conclusion that the words in Malachi and Leviticus are binding to me as a.. let's call me a Baptist.. pretty sure that would make me one of those inerrant folks..

How about the doctrine that Christ's sacrifice washed away the bonds of the Old Covenant? The 10-percent rule can only be found in the old covenant, and there are passages in the NT to support the view that tithes are no longer required.

Without quoting them as they are too numerous (and they show context which scriptural one-liners never do), you can go here if you think it's important to investigate.

http://www.bibleinsight.com/tithing.html

I find that churches are often under the gun to collect money. They have bankers, they have massive overhead (as Lifechurch certainly does), they have huge expenses. They were also probably brought up under the view that tithing is required without really examining the issue. Do I think it's good to support a ministry if I think that the money will be well spent in helping people? Sure. Do I think it's a sin not to? Nope.


I believe the Bible is the infalliable word of God. If you do not, then we will probably never agree. Sure it will seem silly or not make sense for me to believe what I do to people who don't believe it as well... but Christ didn't call me to be like the world, like everyone else. Call it a blind, child-like faith, but I've been saved by God's amazing grace and there is no denying the power of Christ. That is my faith, and I believe that faith can move mountains! Sure I use "one-liners" if you will, but I believe there are too many people out there who argue religion for the sake of arguing. That was not what I was trying to do. There are certain scriptures of the Bible that will always be argued, whether they are taken along with the whole chapter or taken alone. There are also certain scriptures that can't be argued. And those are the scriptures that lay the foundation for my faith. People (including me) muck up/have mucked up since the beginning of humankind, everything.. so it's no wonder that there thousands of different religions and hundreds of thousands of views on each one. That will never change until Christ comes back!

Yes, I do believe that Christ came to earth to provide a way once for all to be given God's gift of eternal life and that with His death came the tearing of the veil that covered the Ark of the covenant... that the old law was rendered useless, because he was the perfect sacrifice. It doesn't mean that the old law doesn't mean anything, though! I mean we can say that we don't have to give ten percent, but does that mean too, that we can say that we can steal, because it was a part of the old law and now it's gone. It's not a matter of having to follow the law, so much. I believe the law exists to show us still how incapable we are of ever being perfect without Christ. Everyone can argue anything and everything about the law, heck they did that long before there were this many "religions" out there.

Giving is a part of Christianity. As I look at Christ, who gave the ultimate gift, I want to be like Him. That means that I want to give!

I probably should not be the one to try and debate with you.. I am not well versed in the Bible, and I sure don't know religion. I do know that I struggle everyday with right and wrong and with what God's will is, and just learning how to die to myself and my selfish desires and actions. I do know, too, that God's love is more amazing than I will ever be able to comprehend, and that is the only arguement that should ever be "won".

Without bringing offense to anyone, we all enjoy spirited debate, but can we return this back to the original topic.


okcgoddess, did you get to attend this past sunday? how did your family enjoy the service?

osupa --

I think that we're more-less in agreement then that giving to the church is good. I don't think that you're trying to make the case that the 1/10th thing is Biblically justified. As to the Commandments, they can all be found in the NT:

http://www.moseshand.com/questions/p24a.htm

But I know what you're saying and do not dispute that the Bible, either the NT or OT can be looked upon as a 'guide.' I don't take it to the next step of infalliability though and am fine with agreeing to disagree on that point.

As to some of the more inane things I've heard on this board such as "Do you want to be blessed in net or gross?", I guess I'll be comfortable knowing that I have my view and they have theirs.

***
As to whether this has anything to do with the OP (for the benefit of the immediate preceding poster), it's an interesting discussion to me and I'll continue it as long as people will respond. Request a mod split it out if it bothers you. I find this topic to be very relevant to the subject at hand.

I don't know about the "net/gross" thing, or where you heard it, but God's blessings abound, has nothing to do with us! And I like being challenged in what I believe, Midtowner, and I'm glad that we have that freedom in America.. to say what we believe!

Yes, okcgoddess, did you get to attend? What are your views?

osupa --
As to whether this has anything to do with the OP (for the benefit of the immediate preceding poster), it's an interesting discussion to me and I'll continue it as long as people will respond. Request a mod split it out if it bothers you. I find this topic to be very relevant to the subject at hand.

It's not that it's not an interesting discussion, I was simply pointing out the fact that the OP stated that her family has a strong hunger to get closer to God. She was gathering responses and opinions on whether or not LifeChurch could be a place where her entire family could experience and grow closer to God.

I just figured our intent is to reach out in love to everyone especially people seeking a closer relationship with God. Not divide and create factions to destroy the body of Christ.

Yes, I agree, and I'm sorry for debating these topics on this post! I would love to see okcgoddess and her family (and everyone everywhere!) become involved in a fellowship where they learn about God! Thanks, ibda!

Midtowner... new thread post... Bible.

I think Christians are often too legalistic when it comes to the Bible. They comb over it trying to find hard and fast facts and rules. I think in doing so, they miss the point. The point of Christianity is forgiveness, love, good works, etc. IMHO, all else is peripheral.

If part of what good works are for you involves tithing, do so because you think it's right, not because you're going to be squashed by some holy hand if you don't. Don't do it because you're seeking blessings and return on investment, do it because you want to see your money do something for someone else that'll be bigger than the plasma TV you could have owned instead.

I think we agree on more than you think we agree on :)

But yes, America and free speach :iagree:

ibda -- dissent doesn't destroy the body of Christ. A good Christian questions what he or she is taught and examines whether it is good for the whole and good for the faith. There is nothing destructive about doing that. There is constructive criticism and destructive criticism. Know the difference.

MidTowner - I agree with you to a point, the Berean Christians, took everything they were taught, and searched it out in the scripture. Acts 17:11 to make sure it was exact, of course they believed the scriptures they had were infallible. (my stand also)

Prov 6:19 in talking about things God hates, one of them is he that sow's discord among brethren. This is when someone who has an opinion, and instead of prayerfully finding an answer from God. And resolving the issue, They gather others and and sow that opinion or idea with them. If that opinion or issue is something that can bring dissent, or discord to God's fellowship of believers, then how can it not hurt the body? If I got a different opinion about how these forums should be run, and I got 300-400people to agree with me, and instead of bringing it before the mods, and Todd, I just decide to critize these forums, then create my own, and take 400 people with me.

But I can see what direction you're coming from. I can understand your point on criticism, I would assume you'd agree with me about it's also important on when to use wisdom with out criticism, or as you put it, constructive criticism.

Anyways, I'm sorry I've completely diverted from the OP. I'm open the a new thread to discuss church criticism if you're interested.

Without bringing offense to anyone, we all enjoy spirited debate, but can we return this back to the original topic.


okcgoddess, did you get to attend this past sunday? how did your family enjoy the service?


Unfortunately we were uanble to attend this Sunday. I really wanted to go so bad and my husband agreed to give it a try. However, my 11 month old was sick with a virus he caught at day-care which prevented us from going. We are committed no matter what to go this weekend. We really feel like we need to get closer to God right now. We also really need the help from the church family to help get us through the loss of my mother-in-law this month . We are hoping church can help give us some peace and help our family all together. Hopefully we can set aside all the politics and hypocrits that are involved so we can have the experience we are longing for.

I know you don't know me from the next person, but I can understand the loss of a close family member, you have my family's Condolences, and we will pray that God will give you family peace in this situation. I'm certain though that your family will find what it's looking for, because it's not just a church, or christian religion, but you're desiring God.

Okcgoddess, I'm so sorry about the death in your family! I know that it's tough and there really isn't anything I could say that changes how hard it is to go through losing someone in your family.

Just to let you know, you can view the first two messages in the current series online at lifechurch.tv. The series is entitled "Goin' all the way". You wouldn't be out of the loop if you didn't view them, but they will give you a good feel (there are also other messages on there) for how Craig preaches! I hope your little one is feeling better!

I'm not a big fan of the direction these churches are going. They seem less religious and more 'self help'. I also have my differences with their theology.

I've met Craig Groeschel (the pastor), and he's a pretty nice guy. Has a degree in finance...

I'm also not a huge fan of how they have been 'franchising', but as a Catholic, I don't know if I have room to talk there :)

The way I see it they allow the Holy Spirit room to work, apart from the structured, man made steps followed in the Catholic church.

So Keith, I guess that confirms that you feel okay with this "consumer religion" that is becoming popular? It seems that religion is now marketing -- e.g. targetting audiences, cultivating audiences, etc. just the same as IBM or someone like that would do.

To me, that whole concept is a little foreign... of course, we still chant in latin at my church :)

Jesus didn't just stick around with religious people. No, he went an dwelled among the lost people. The only way he could do that was come down to Earth as a poor man, not as a rich king, as the Pharisees had expected. Life Church is only following the way of Jesus, trying to become more like a certain group of people in order to reach them better.

Unfortunately, too many preaching the "prosperity" gospel are living lives of wealth and splendor, and using their churches as entrepreneural vehicles. And, there is no denying that they are mostly found in the non-denominational entertainment churches. That's also not found in the church in Acts.

I do agree with you there. Folks like Benny Hinn and other evangelists that are making big bucks, are not following God's plan. But, there are lost sheep even among the leaders in some churches.

Tithing was an invention of my church (Catholic) in the middle ages.

It's good to give to an organization that does good to others, but IMHO, not mandatory. That idea God needs my money to pay a full time video editor would almost be offensive to me. That's why I go to my place, and y'all go to yours though.

America's good like that.

The whole idea that we need to pay a guy to light candles and carry a cross around the chapel irks me. And what about the check that organist gets? Oh yeah, someone has to put those prayer books together. I would think they'd be known as a "book editor." That idea God needs my money to pay a full time prayer book editor would almost be offensive to me.

Unfortunately we were uanble to attend this Sunday. I really wanted to go so bad and my husband agreed to give it a try. However, my 11 month old was sick with a virus he caught at day-care which prevented us from going. We are committed no matter what to go this weekend. We really feel like we need to get closer to God right now. We also really need the help from the church family to help get us through the loss of my mother-in-law this month . We are hoping church can help give us some peace and help our family all together. Hopefully we can set aside all the politics and hypocrits that are involved so we can have the experience we are longing for.

okcgoddess, just to let you know about the upcoming message this weekend. As osupa indicated, the series is called "going all the way" in relation to better, truer relationships with your S/O. However, it is recommend that this coming Sunday (1/29), children below the 5th grade level should go to "LifeKids" (is that the name of it, osupa?) I believe this Sunday's topic will be addressing Sex and obviously, that's for parents to decide, but okcgoddess, I'd hate for you to go in without knowing.

The whole idea that we need to pay a guy to light candles and carry a cross around the chapel irks me. And what about the check that organist gets? Oh yeah, someone has to put those prayer books together. I would think they'd be known as a "book editor." That idea God needs my money to pay a full time prayer book editor would almost be offensive to me.

Who is paying a guy to light candles and carry a cross?

The whole idea that we need to pay a guy to light candles and carry a cross around the chapel irks me. And what about the check that organist gets? Oh yeah, someone has to put those prayer books together. I would think they'd be known as a "book editor." That idea God needs my money to pay a full time prayer book editor would almost be offensive to me.

Some Catholic Churches actually do pay their musicians salaries. I know of one in the metro that does that. However, there are still quite a few "full stewardship" parishes. In these churches, the only salaries go to the clergy (and they are paid very small salaries).

Your ignorance aside, the comparison doesn't even come close to passing muster. If you can find me one other church that has charity spending anywhere remotely close (and we can even talk per capita) to the Catholic church, I'll be extremely surprised.

I expect that you'll have no such luck.

I didn't intend for this to be a Catholic vs. Lifechurch discussion, but I guess you want to make it that. Very well.. state some facts upon which you want to base an argument.

Or you can just continue to spew ignorance.. suits me either way.

Midtowner, Jack will not be able to spew anything BUT ignorance and everyone here knows it. Instead, he chooses to make parochial comments that have no basis or meaning and are simply his opportunity to be a JACK...

As a Catholic, I can completely understand your point of view regarding these "new" churches. It has been challenging for me to go to a more contemporary service, given my traditional church background. However, I have noticed it's very enjoyable to see how involved people become in a contemporary worship service. It's a touching celebration of God, the likes of which I haven't experienced in Catholic service except at maybe Christmas or Easter.

Thanks SwtDsy for reminding me and Okcgoddess about kids attending next week's service! I completely forgot!

okcgoddess, just to let you know about the upcoming message this weekend. As osupa indicated, the series is called "going all the way" in relation to better, truer relationships with your S/O. However, it is recommend that this coming Sunday (1/29), children below the 5th grade level should go to "LifeKids" (is that the name of it, osupa?) I believe this Sunday's topic will be addressing Sex and obviously, that's for parents to decide, but okcgoddess, I'd hate for you to go in without knowing.

Thanks Sweetdaisy and Osupa for the heads up on this weekends service. I will definitely send the kidos to the "LifeKids". I'm not ready to start discussing Sex with my 5 year old! Besides that it sounds as if the kids program will be alot of fun for him. Do they have a nursery for the babies. I didn't see anything about a nursery on their website.

Some Catholic Churches actually do pay their musicians salaries. I know of one in the metro that does that. However, there are still quite a few "full stewardship" parishes. In these churches, the only salaries go to the clergy (and they are paid very small salaries).

Your ignorance aside, the comparison doesn't even come close to passing muster. If you can find me one other church that has charity spending anywhere remotely close (and we can even talk per capita) to the Catholic church, I'll be extremely surprised.

I expect that you'll have no such luck.

I didn't intend for this to be a Catholic vs. Lifechurch discussion, but I guess you want to make it that. Very well.. state some facts upon which you want to base an argument.

Or you can just continue to spew ignorance.. suits me either way.

Any stats to back up your comment that the Catholic Church spends more on charitable causes than any other denomination? Last I heard, the Southern Baptist Convention spent the more than any other religious group on charitable causes, through their Disaster Relief, Retirement Centers, International Missions Board (the largest missions organization in the world), North American Missions Board, Orphanages, Baptist Collegiate Ministries, the Cooperative Program, Woman's Missionary Union, etc.

Patrick, it's hard to tally up. The Catholic Church is multinational, and the vast majority of its holdings are not in the U.S. While I'm sure that there are Baptists in places other than the U.S., I doubt that there's a number anywhere even remotely comparable to Catholics -- this makes the tabulation difficult.

In the U.S., there are several Catholic Charity organizations. The organization of the Church is complex -- there are several orders that answer directly to the Pope. We have diocese (dioci?) and archdiocese (archdioci?), bishops, archbishops, you get the idea.

Probably the largest charity umbrella that I know of is Catholic Charities -- they have an office on Classen somewhere near 14th.

From their website:



Overall, Catholic Charities agencies have about 51,000 paid staff (51,004) and more than 168,000 (168,548) volunteers-nearly four times as many as paid staff. Another 7,335 individuals serve as volunteer members of local boards.

The collective income for Catholic Charities agencies is $2.69 billion, with expenditures of $2.58 billion.

Catholic Charities of course is just one umbrella organization that receives some of its funding from church sources and other funding from private and public grants.

I doubt anyone keeps track of the work done by actual individual parishes. However, from my direct involvement, I'll tell you that it's quite substantial.

Other interesting demographics, none of which show charitable giving: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_romcath.html

yes LifeChurch has a huge ministry for babies. The OKC campus pretty much has a miniature Disney world for kids and the infants and toddlers section is pretty wild too. They had a theme park company from Florida come build it all

Okcgoddess! Did you get to visit LifeChurch today? If so, what did you think????

I get your point Midtowner.

Patrick, are you just trying to appease me? :)

Patrick, are you just trying to appease me? :)

Only if you'll cover my malpractice cases, in exchange for free medical care! LOL!

Patrick, we both know you'll never have to face a malpractice case.

2 reasons:

#1: You'll be a perfect doctor.

#2: The insurance providers that pay medmal claims are making it damned near impossible to have any success with medical malpractice claims (and extremly expensive). In 10-15 years, doctors should be all but immune from malpractice suits.

what does all that have to do with Lifechurch. Back to topic