(Originally posted on The Subjective Scribe (http://scribeokc.blogspot.com/2005/12/in-process-of-saving-christmas-many.html))


Sage has an excellent post (http://sagecoveredhills.blogspot.com/2005/12/thoughts-on-christmas-season.html) on his blog "Musings" about the current battle to save Christmas:




Suzie's stirring the pot again over at Assorted Babble (http://suzieviews.blogspot.com/2005/12/hot-issue-christmas-and-holidays.html), supposedly exposing some liberal conspiracy to neuter Christmas by ripping Christ out of the holiday. As I often do, I added my two cents worth. Just in case you’re wondering… I don’t think there is a vast left wing conspiracy to take away Christmas. Sure, there are a few radicals out there, but then again, the further right or left one gets from the mainstream, the crazier the folks get. As Christians, we make ourselves look bad when we feel threatened and start shooting from the hip. Such a response isn’t "Christ-like" nor does it bring out the best in us. So I don’t worry about folks trying to take Christ out of Christmas or whether or not the 10 Commandments are planted on the courthouse lawn. (another big issue for this group.)

I think some of the people leading such crusades to keep Chirst in Christmas or to keep the Commandments posted are prideful and want to be seen as the savior of Christianity. But Christianity doesn’t need a savior; unless I'm greatly mistaken and we're all fools, we already have the Savior. Secondly, they feel they are leading a righteous campaign, but in doing so they ignore the greater picture. If they want to be a Fundamentalist, they should realize there are a lot of things in our society that doesn’t conform to the teachings of Jesus—and shoving our symbols down the throats of others isn’t one of them. If we really wanted to be radical as Christians, we’d take serious the teachings of Jesus or the meaning of all ten of the commandments, instead of randomly picking and choosing those we want to follow.

[continued (http://sagecoveredhills.blogspot.com/2005/12/thoughts-on-christmas-season.html)]


Sage comments echo what I've been saying for quite some time. Many Christians, particularly the Religious Right, are so focused on defending their rights and fighting to keep Christian symbols in public places that they are losing the over all "battle" for people's souls. When issues like these come up, I simply ask, "What would Jesus do?" What did Jesus do during His life here on this earth? Did he spend his time warring against the secular authorities or non-religious? No, he challenged his own religious leaders for their religiosity. Did he crusade to make sure religious symbols (Hebrew at the time) were included in the public places? I can't find where he did.

Why then is the American Church so consumed with these petty, superficial issues and ignoring the very things God actually commanded us to do? Feed the hungry, clothe the needy, care for the sick and visit those in prison (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:35-40;&version=31;) … "Love your neighbor as yourself" ... "Love your enemy" ... (How does God define Love (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013:4-8;&version=31;)? "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." In all that the Religious Right doing in their battle over the word "Christmas" in secular settings and their crusade to keep or even put the Ten Commandments in public buildings and their political efforts to pass more morality laws, how is it not "self-seeking"?

It's all about Christians and Christian "rights" and not about Christ. And that's the problem.

Absolutely true - very well said.....

I disagree with you, Scribe. The problem is, too many Christians have taken the view that taking "Christ" out of Chistmas and taking the 10 Commandments out of public buildings is a petty thing. It is not "self-seeking," it is doing what Jesus asked us to do...to spread the gospel throughout the world and to expose others to the love of Jesus Christ.

Yes, Jesus did talk about banning secular things...especially idols.

If we, as Christians sit back and watch things happen and do nothing about it, then what other "Christian" rights will be banned? What would Jesus do? He would be very dissappointed in Christians that have the "self seeking" view, and he would also be dissppointed in the Christians who sit back and do nothing to protect the name of Christianity. We can't give up.

The article below proves that boycotting certain stores during Christmas and signing petitions does work.



Target Backing Off Ban, May Use Christmas In Ads Later This Year.

Your efforts are having a powerful effect! Our boycott of Target is working! According to the New York Times, a spokeswoman for Target said it did not intend to ban Christmas and might use Christmas in advertisements later this year! In addition, Sears is adding "Merry Christmas" signs in their stores.

As Bill O'Reilly of The O'Reilly Factor on Fox News Channel said, "There is an anti-Christian bias in this country, and it is more on display at Christmas season than any other time."

AFA found that the "holiday" theme was used in 105 commercials while Christmas was the theme in only 11. This follows the pattern in print advertising where "holiday" was used 25 times more often than Christmas.

These companies don't want to offend a handful of atheists and agnostics, but they don't mind offending millions of Christians who celebrate the Reason for the season. They find Christmas an offensive word.



We have prepared a letter to 24 companies which banned Christmas in their TV ads and chose "holiday" instead. Your one click of the button will send a letter to all 24 of these national advertisers. We know it is probably too late to change their ads this year, but we must let them know that next year we expect them to include Christmas in their TV commercials!



https://secure.afa.net/afa/afapetition/takeaction.asp?id=168

(You may need to copy and paste this link in order to open the petition)

I disagree with you, Scribe. The problem is, too many Christians have taken the view that taking "Christ" out of Chistmas and taking the 10 Commandments out of public buildings is a petty thing. It is not "self-seeking," it is doing what Jesus asked us to do...to spread the gospel throughout the world and to expose others to the love of Jesus Christ.

Yes, Jesus did talk about banning secular things...especially idols.

If we, as Christians sit back and watch things happen and do nothing about it, then what other "Christian" rights will be banned? What would Jesus do? He would be very dissappointed in Christians that have the "self seeking" view, and he would also be dissppointed in the Christians who sit back and do nothing to protect the name of Christianity. We can't give up.


Target putting up "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" does not impede our ability to "spread the gospel throughout the world and to expose others to the love of Jesus Christ." If it does, Christians have a much bigger problem. We accomplish spreading the gospel and exposing others to the love of Jesus Christ by personal relationship and acts of love, not by publicly boycotting stores who don't adopt religious terminology. Was the New Testament church impeded in their spreading of the gospel because the Romans resisted them and oppressed their rights? Hardly. Did early Christians "suffer" in their ability to expose others to the love of Christ because the local merchant didn't display a pro-Christian holiday banner or the Roman government buildings didn't display the Ten Commandments? Absolutely not. It's a cop-out for American Christians.

Lastly, Jesus did speak against idols, but who was He speaking to? His own people, the Jews, and to his disciples. He didn't command His disciples (that I can find, please cite references that say otherwise) to go into non-Jewish, secular and Roman places and "ban" them.

Where did Christ guarantee our political rights here on this earth? Where did Christ command us to fight for our own political rights here on earth? Where did Christ tell us that society must be forced to accept Christian ideals and adopt Christian rituals in order for us to be good Christians? Where does Christ demonstrate that we are dependent upon others' adoption of Christian symbols and traditions in order for us to fulfill our Christian duties?

Whether secular society chooses to say Merry Christmas or chooses to "take Christ out of Christmas" does not change my faith in Christ and does not change my obedience to His will for my life. The only one who can take Christ out of Christmas is me. That's the only person who's actions I am accountable for. American Christians have a very mistaken notion that everyone else must accept Christian symbology in order for us to freely express our faith.

The Good News is that Christ has given us a free choice to either accept Him or reject Him. It's a FREE choice, not one to be forced upon us. Nor should we force it upon others. As a Christian, I surrendered myself completely to Christ -- and that includes surrendering any claim to personal rights. I am in His hands and my life is His. No person or society can take that away from me no matter how many of my rights are taken away and no matter how much they take Christ out of society.

Very well stated Scribe!!! Many fundamentalists are simply fighting the wrong battle. It does keep many "Christians" from spending their time doing the very things that Christ actually called us to do. And what will these fundamentalists have gained? I contend a world where they feel more at home and more comfortable. Not only will they have alienated the ones they are called to reach out to, they are making a comfortable home of a place that isn't really supposed to be their home.

I wonder how many "Evangelicals" are talking to those secular citizens who they are trying to preach the "good news" to? The ones I speak with are not going to feel any "good news" in forced morality. That is not the love of the Christ I came to know and love. He gave me a free choice by His grace alone. As Christ first showed me this kind of love, I pray that I can show the same kind of love to the world.

The world will see Christ through His followers (whether a positive or negative reflection), not the symbols we use. I am not sure why this is hard for some to understand.

I disagree with you, Scribe. The problem is, too many Christians have taken the view that taking "Christ" out of Chistmas and taking the 10 Commandments out of public buildings is a petty thing. It is not "self-seeking," it is doing what Jesus asked us to do...to spread the gospel throughout the world and to expose others to the love of Jesus Christ.

You cannot take Christ out of anything as long as his followers demonstrate the Love he called us to show. Focusing on symbols does not help that cause (but it can and often does hurt it) and no matter how many times one sees the word "Christ" or sees a concrete version of the 10 commandments will affect Christ's existence in the world because he exists within Christian's hearts and His love is expressed through our actions.

How is displaying the 10 commandments in public buildings spreading the gospel throughout the world and exposing others to the love of Jesus Christ?

You cannot take Christ out of anything as long as his followers demonstrate the Love he called us to show. Focusing on symbols does not help that cause (but it can and often does hurt it) and no matter how many times one sees the word "Christ" or sees a concrete version of the 10 commandments will affect Christ's existence in the world because he exists within Christian's hearts and His love is expressed through our actions.

How is displaying the 10 commandments in public buildings spreading the gospel throughout the world and exposing others to the love of Jesus Christ?

That last question is a no-brainer. There are many non-Christians who visit public buildings every day. There are also many that have no idea what the Ten Commandments are (it's true). If they read the Ten Commandments, then maybe they will realize that they need to follow them and in turn, follow Jesus.

Not everybody has been exposed to the gospel or the Ten Commandments. That's why the visibility of it in public buildings is essential in spreading the gospel. BTW, we are not "forcing" our beliefs on anybody else....they have a choice. It is our responsibility to get the Word out, and the Ten Commandments are just the beginning.

Whether secular society chooses to say Merry Christmas or chooses to "take Christ out of Christmas" does not change my faith in Christ and does not change my obedience to His will for my life.

It should not change your obedience to God, however, it should bother you that society is doing all it can to take Christ out of a Christian holiday.

We accomplish spreading the gospel and exposing others to the love of Jesus Christ by personal relationship and acts of love, not by publicly boycotting stores who don't adopt religious terminology.

I disagree. Publicly boycotting stores in the name of Jesus (not "religious" terminology) is the way to show the businesses that Christians will not tolerate taking "Christ" out of Christmas.

The world will see Christ through His followers (whether a positive or negative reflection), not the symbols we use. I am not sure why this is hard for some to understand.

You are very, very, wrong. I know that for a fact. As a youth leader, I deal with teenagers all the time, and they are always wearing jewelry (Christian Symbols), and shirts with the message of Christ on them. These symbols are very effective witnessing tools, because when a teenagers' friend asks them about the "symbols" they are wearing, it opens the door for them to talk about Christ. Christian symbols are a very effective witnessing tool.

Unfortunately, some Christians are too embarrassed to share their faith by using symbols. They are embarrassed to show they have a relationship with Christ. They are afraid that they will be ridiculed. If that is the case, then they haven't surrendered their whole life to Christ yet.

Amen to that Keith...glad I am not the only one who see's that. Ya know it's not so much a matter of department stores or the presidents Christmas cards removing the word Christmas from their ad's or greetings, it still boils down to the fact we as a nation are losing our balls to stand up to people, most people would rather give up their rights and not fight for anything... rather they would rather just give in and say, oh well, cant do anything about it, B.S....I wont just sit here and watch as people come into my country and expect me to change my ways for them, I do have the balls to do something about it, sorry so many people dont.

wow, the Christian love is just flowing around here this holiday season! :LolLolLol


Seriously, when people are so passionate about issues, they sometimes get very defensive (been there, done that many times). So.... my point is maybe we should all take a deep breath, count to 10 and reread our posts a few times before hitting send..

Have a wonderful day - stay warm.:surrender

I think this whole issue over taking "Christ" out of Christmas is going way over the top, both here on this site, and nationally. Most corporations are using the phrase "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" because its easier for marketing purposes. "Happy Holidays" covers Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, Hanukkah, etc. I really doubt the CEO's of these major corporations are atheists, as many of you would like to believe.

The tactics being used by many religious organizations in the presnt day and age, are really starting to turn people away from the faith. A great example is the Disney boycott, which was initiated by the Southern Baptist Convention, and adopted by many other religious groups. Did this boycott really accomplish anything? IMO, it was contrary to what Jesus would've done. Jesus didn't stay away from the worldly people by boycotting them. Instead, he intermingled with them and showed them His Godly love through acts of service and His holy example. In the New Testament, it was the religious people that were attempting to stone the adulterous woman. Jesus stepped in and stopped the judgemental acts, instead choosing to love the woman and forgive her.

We as Christians are spending too much time and effort trying to use politics and boycotts to get our point across. All this is doing is turning people off from Christianity altogether.

Instead, we need to focus our efforts on loving people, doing good deeds for people, and winning people to Christ. It's through those actions that people see the real heart of Jesus.

Showing a criminal love by doing good deeds for him/her goes a lot further than spitting on him/her. Spitting on the criminal turns them away from the faith. When you show love and compassion to the criminal, he/she see's the love of Christ in your life and wants to know more about that.
Christians, let's stop trying to blame politics and business for the decline of religion's influence in the world. Let's take the blame, realizing that the reason many have turned away from the faith is because we've sat on the sidelines in our comfort zones, and refused to do the good deeds Christ has asked us to do.

Thank you Patrick... very well stated...

I don't see what the big deal is. People have been saying "Happy Holidays" for years. Like Patrick said above, it covers many of the holidays during this time of year. I'm not offended by it one bit. You don't hear the Jewish complaining when someone wishes them "Happy Holidays" instead of "Happy Hanukkah" and their religion isn't in any danger of being wiped off the planet (except by Iran that is).

MadMonk, on this we can agree.

I received this through my e-mail today, and it says exactly the way I feel.



By Debbie Daniel

I'm on a "Merry Christmas" mission and I'm in full throttle. My little yellow VW Beetle has turned into a Christmas billboard with Merry Christmas written across the back window. Yes, I've decided to trek off to work everyday on the public highways with a message that seems to offend people.


At stop lights, I even turn my music up a little louder, and to top it off, I sing along with it. Don't I know that stopping at a red light to roll my windows down only to share the joy of Christmas carols on public streets is a No-No? Don't I fear the Christmas Gestapo and those who would have me remove the written message from my car?


I'm sorry folks, but the only person I'm concerned about "offending" during this Christmas season is the Lord himself. LEAVE THAT MANGER ALONE! We've allowed the Baby Jesus to be kicked out of His lowly manger, and those offended by Christmas are still not happy.


I refuse to let this happen. I'm going to do my part to make sure "Merry Christmas" doesn't become extinct. Because like it or not, if the believers in Christmas don't take a stand now, it's gone forever.


Listen folks, the Christian community has been underestimated before; we will have to show ourselves again.


I walked into a Wendy's Restaurant the other day and was rather exuberant with my "Merry Christmas" greeting to the manager. He didn't have much of a response and I said, "Where's your Christmas spirit?" He said, "We're not allowed to use the words "Merry Christmas" when greeting customers. We can only say "Happy Holiday."


This morning I grabbed a quick breakfast at a Whataburger Restaurant. I noticed there wasn't a single decoration in the store. I asked the manager why they weren't decorated for Christmas. He told me the corporate headquarters decided not to send any decorations to any of their stores, and he didn't know why.


After I heard about all the Macy's and Federated Stores taking down their Merry Christmas signs, the Target stores not allowing the Salvation Army to "Ring the Christmas bells," and the many incidents of children, choirs, and bands not allowed to play or sing Christmas carols, I realized it was happening right here in my own little Texas town.


How can this be? Not Texas!


We do, however, have a store, Hobby Lobby, that plays nothing but Christmas carols during the season. On Christmas Day they run a full page ad in our local newspaper. That ad is not to promote the store, but uses the entire page to tell the story of Jesus' birth. Now that's taking a stand. We need to thank them.


When I saw a news report the other evening of children being taught new words to a song we've sung for years - "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" - I was saddened to hear "We Wish You a Splendid Holiday."


I know now that it's just a matter of time that the "Merry Christmas" greetings will be gone.. Look around your town. Notice the "Holiday" greetings and not "Christmas." It's happening right before our very eyes.


Start singing the songs; go down the streets of America singing to your heart's content. Get some of those wash-off markers that these kids use to write on their car windows when they're rooting for their hometown football team. It's easy to do, and if a torrential rain washes it off, write it on there again.


We've got to get this message out. "Go Tell It On the Mountain . . . that Jesus Christ is Born." Sing it, speak it, be a billboard for our Lord.


The story of this "Baby Jesus" alone has brought about more goodwill at this time of year than any other day we celebrate. How can we sit back and allow Him to be snuffed out of our lives?


Is it Jesus, or is it His followers that the "offended" don't like? What kind of revulsion galvanizes one to campaign so vehemently against the mere mention of His name, the mere singing of a carol, or the mere visual of a sign that says "Merry Christmas?"


I can listen to my own boss at work use some of the vilest words and follow up with, "Excuse my French." I may cringe inside at his damning of God's name, but I tolerate it. So if you don't like me wishing you a "Merry Christmas," I'll say, "Excuse my joy." You may cringe that I celebrate the birth of Jesus, but just tolerate it.


I cannot be concerned that "Merry Christmas" offends you. If I'm not careful, the day will come when saying I'm a Christian will offend you.


I'm offended that you're offended. How about that?


When we get to a point that we can no longer take part in a tradition we hold dear, we have no choice; we either defend that tradition or we give it up to those who say NO. That's it . . . period. So, which will it be?


I'm not giving up my "Merry Christmas" joy to anyone. If I know of someone that celebrates another holiday during this time of year, I will be glad to wish them whatever holiday they want. Just tell me what it is and I'll shout it to the world and wish you a grand celebration.


Just give me Christmas. To you merchants: Stop being so hypocritical and "filling your tills" on the back of Jesus! Who do you think is the symbol of giving at this time of year? It was the wise men bringing gifts to the newborn Christ-child.


You want your coffers full, but have ordered your employees to take down all the Merry Christmas signs. If that's the case, I'll buy gifts at a place that understands my joy.


If you're worried about offending someone, you just did. The most recent Newsweek survey shows that 82% of Americans believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So, in trying not to offend a few, you've offended many.


It's okay to jump into the "Merry Christmas" spirit when it fills your cash register, but let's call it something else . .. . and don't stop giving . . . and don't stop buying. . . we'll just change the name and you'll never know the difference.


I know the difference and I'm feeling it greatly. It's hard not to be aware that townships across our country have actually banned the singing of Christmas carols because it might offend someone. And it's not just the religious songs; it's the secular ones too. No more "Jingle Bells" or "Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer" because they're associated with Christmas. Boy, aren't we getting sensitive?


If we're not celebrating Christmas for the hope it gives with the birth of our Savior . . . there is no hope!


I noticed a few years ago that we changed the name of Abraham Lincoln's and George Washington's birthday so as to be all inclusive regarding the Presidents. Hark, if we should recognize anyone as exceptional.. Now it's called Presidents' Day.


Well, if we're going to be so all inclusive, next month I'll have to refer to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Day as Civil Rights Leaders' Day. We don't want to exclude great Americans like Rosa Parks or Cesar Chavez, do we? And to think that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton might be left out.


We might need to change Mother's Day, Father's Day, and Grandparents' Day to All Parents' Day. Just lump them all together.


It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? So what's the difference?


My freedom to celebrate Christmas in the tradition of the Christian religion is as much my right as it is your right to be offended by it. So what are we going to do? Did anyone hear me . . what are we going to do?


Do we defend a person's right to go forward with a time tested tradition (how about 2000 years?), or do we defend a person's right to end it all because they're offended? As long as we live in this great land and have the freedom to express ourselves and what we believe in, we will always offend someone.

If we try to make everything right for everyone, we won't have anything for anyone.


May you always have Christmas in your heart!

There is so much to address, there's just not enough time and space here to address it all, so I'll just pick a few.




I'm on a "Merry Christmas" mission and I'm in full throttle. My little yellow VW Beetle has turned into a Christmas billboard with Merry Christmas written across the back window. Yes, I've decided to trek off to work everyday on the public highways with a message that seems to offend people.


At stop lights, I even turn my music up a little louder, and to top it off, I sing along with it. Don't I know that stopping at a red light to roll my windows down only to share the joy of Christmas carols on public streets is a No-No? Don't I fear the Christmas Gestapo and those who would have me remove the written message from my car?


Who has proposed a law that would keep her from writing "Merry Christmas" on her car? Who has proposed a law that would keep her from singing Christmas carols in her car (other than noise ordinances should she turn it up too loud)? Has she had direct contact with the "Christmas Gestapo" in which they specifically denied her "rights" personally?





After I heard about all the Macy's and Federated Stores taking down their Merry Christmas signs, the Target stores not allowing the Salvation Army to "Ring the Christmas bells," and the many incidents of children, choirs, and bands not allowed to play or sing Christmas carols, I realized it was happening right here in my own little Texas town.


How does Macy's and Federated Stores displaying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" infringe upon her free expression of religion? How does Target — a non-religious, secular company — choosing not permit the Salvation Army to "Ring the Christmas bells" (a decision based on complaints about giving one charity access and not all charities) violate her rights to freely practice her religion? Has anyone prevented her or her church from allowing children, choirs and bands to play or sing Christmas carols?





We do, however, have a store, Hobby Lobby, that plays nothing but Christmas carols during the season. On Christmas Day they run a full page ad in our local newspaper. That ad is not to promote the store, but uses the entire page to tell the story of Jesus' birth. Now that's taking a stand. We need to thank them.


And that's Hobby Lobby's right to freely choose to promote Christmas in whatever way they choose, just like it's Target's right to promote "Happy Holidays" in whatever way they choose. I enjoy the ads they run and appreciate their contribution to spread the message of Jesus.





The story of this "Baby Jesus" alone has brought about more goodwill at this time of year than any other day we celebrate. How can we sit back and allow Him to be snuffed out of our lives?


Only you can allow Jesus to be snuffed out of your life. Christmas decorations and Christmas carols shouldn't be prerequesites for Jesus to be alive in your life. What about country's that do not celebrate the Christmas holiday? Are the Christians there without Jesus, then? It's a crutch argument.





Is it Jesus, or is it His followers that the "offended" don't like? What kind of revulsion galvanizes one to campaign so vehemently against the mere mention of His name, the mere singing of a carol, or the mere visual of a sign that says "Merry Christmas?"


"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." John 15:18-19 NIV





I cannot be concerned that "Merry Christmas" offends you. If I'm not careful, the day will come when saying I'm a Christian will offend you.

I'm offended that you're offended. How about that?


What does the Bible say about how we should act in response?
"Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily."It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong]." 1 Corinthians 13:4-5 (Amplified)

The Message paraphrase version shows the passage this way:
Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
Love doesn't strut,
Doesn't have a swelled head,
Doesn't force itself on others,
Isn't always "me first,"
Doesn't fly off the handle,
Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,




Do we defend a person's right to go forward with a time tested tradition (how about 2000 years?), or do we defend a person's right to end it all because they're offended? As long as we live in this great land and have the freedom to express ourselves and what we believe in, we will always offend someone.


She would serve herself well to go back and study the history of Christmas.
In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday.

Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia. Today, in the Greek and Russian orthodox churches, Christmas is celebrated 13 days after the 25th, which is also referred to as the Epiphany or Three Kings Day. This is the day it is believed that the three wise men finally found Jesus in the manger.

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. On Christmas, believers attended church, then celebrated raucously in a drunken, carnival-like atmosphere similar to today's Mardi Gras. Each year, a beggar or student would be crowned the "lord of misrule" and eager celebrants played the part of his subjects. The poor would go to the houses of the rich and demand their best food and drink. If owners failed to comply, their visitors would most likely terrorize them with mischief. Christmas became the time of year when the upper classes could repay their real or imagined "debt" to society by entertaining less fortunate citizens. [The History Channel (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real2.html)]

In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.

The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.

After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870. [The History Channel (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real3.html)]

It wasn't until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas. Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia. [The History Channel (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real4.html)]
http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/images/1x1_spacer.gif

Thanks Scribe.

This entire argument is so stupid. Why is this such a big deal? Celebrate Christmas, Celebrate Kwanza, Celebrate Festivus for crying out loud.

I don't understand why some Christians are so freaking defensive about this. I am Christian but I understand the not everyone is. Why can't some people just deal with this.

The "attack on Christmas" bloviating morons like Bill O'Rielly made it up!

There are more important things to worry about! Come ON people

I'm personally glad that Target has banned all solicitors from the doors of their stores. The reason I like Target so well, is you're not harassed at the door by some group of kids seeking denotions for who knows what. I go to a store to shop, not to be harassed by people wanting donations from me.
IMO, it's more just in line with Target's sleek and clean appearance.

I'm personally glad that Target has banned all solicitors from the doors of their stores. The reason I like Target so well, is you're not harassed at the door by some group of kids seeking denotions for who knows what. I go to a store to shop, not to be harassed by people wanting donations from me.
IMO, it's more just in line with Target's sleek and clean appearance.

The bell ringers should stand on street corners in Santa suits... Oh. Wait... Brian Bates might walk by with his video camera... Never mind.:lol2:

The bell ringers should stand on street corners in Santa suits... Oh. Wait... Brian Bates might walk by with his video camera... Never mind.:lol2:

:LolLolLol

Laura Bush's "War on Christmas"

November 28th, I posted on The Subjective Scribe (http://scribeokc.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-does-laura-bush-hate-christmas.html) the following:




Last week, Jerry Falwell made it clear that when it comes to celebrating Christmas, "you're either with us, or you're against us," as reported by the San Francisco Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/11/20/MNGVDFRH081.DTL):
Falwell has put the power of his 24,000-member congregation behind the "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign," an effort led by the conservative legal organization Liberty Counsel. The group promises to file suit against anyone who spreads what it sees as misinformation about how Christmas can be celebrated in schools and public spaces.

An additional 800 attorneys from another conservative legal group, the Alliance Defense Fund, are standing by as part of a similar effort, the Christmas Project. Its slogan: "Merry Christmas. It's OK to say it."Other far-right Christian groups are joining the crusade:
Fanning the Yule log of discontent against what the Liberty Counsel calls "grinches" like the American Civil Liberties Union are evangelical-led organizations including the 150,000-member American Family Association. It has called for a boycott of Target stores next weekend. The chain's crime, according to the group, is a ban on the use of "Merry Christmas" in stores, an accusation the chain denies.

On his show last week, Fox News commentator Bill O'Reilly offered a list of other retailers that he says refuse to use "Merry Christmas" in their store advertising. Now enter the First Lady (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/11/20051128-1.html):
MRS. BUSH: Well, all things bright and beautiful is the theme this year. I think it will be really bright and beautiful with this fabulous tree. But thank you all very much. Happy holidays. I know this is the real start of the season, the Monday after Thanksgiving, and so I want to wish everybody happy holidays. And we'll see you later this week with the White House decorations."Happy holidays"? Why not "Merry Christmas"? Will Falwell and company boycott the White House? Will Bill O'Reilly condemn this blatant attack on Christianity? Why does Laura Bush hate Christmas?

(Hat tip to Crooks & Liars (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/11/20051128-1.html))




Think Progress (http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/09/laura-war-on-christmas/) has the latest report on the First Lady's "War on Christmas":



First Lady Laura Bush is a committed soldier in the war on Christmas. In this clip from a video recently published on the White House website she packs in three references to “the holidays” in 15 seconds:

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-images/upload/laurabush.JPG (http://streaming.americanprogress.org/ThinkProgress/2005/happy_holidays_laura.320.240.mov.htm)

If Ms. Bush watched more Bill O’Reilly she’d know how offensive her remarks were to Christians (http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100014):

GUEST: “Season’s Greetings” and “Happy Holidays,” Bill, does not offend Christians.

O’REILLY: Yes, it does. It absolutely does. And I know that for a fact.

Transcript:

Barney and Beasley, I’m really happy to see you’ve gotten into the holiday spirit. These are very thoughtful gifts for each other. I’m glad that you’re thankful for the holidays. President Bush and I wish everyone a very happy holiday.




What will Christians do? The First Lady is taking "Christ" out of Christmas.

MadMonk, on this we can agree.
Its a Christmas miracle. :D
:tiphat:

Dispatch From the War on Christmas


Dear Aunt Mabel,

I hope this letter finds you well. I am writing you from the Christmas frontlines, currently in front of Cinnabon at Twin Oaks Mall. May Jesus and Santa forgive me, but I have to say that this is the worst I've ever seen it.

What a horrible place, the mall. The architecture of these things is all the same. Malls are the architectural scat of the biggest American colossus, corporate capitalism -- a cogs-and-bricks-and-money giant that thunders, three miles high, across the landscape, stopping and squatting occasionally to crap out one of these rectangular jumbles of cement block. May Jesus forgive them for sucking so bad.

I have some sad news -- John has been in an accident. It was his first day here, and we were eating lunch in the food court, in front of the Peppy Peppy Pizza. Suddenly, out of the corner of my eye, I saw a lady carrying three bags stop in her tracks, like she saw someone she knew. She raised a hand, and shouted it, right there in the middle of the mall. "HAPPY HOLIDAYS!"

The carnage was bad. Real bad. I'm sorry to say John wasn't prepared to hear it, and he accidentally stabbed himself repeatedly in the eye with a plastic fork.

The doctors say he'll be fine, but he'll lose that eye. Even in his sleep he's mumbling Merry Christmas, over and over. He's a damn fighter, that one. He's one of the lucky ones, because I'm pretty sure some other people got trampled in the rush to get out.


This whole war has been a nightmare. I was at Circuit City yesterday, looking for a cheap DVD player. Out front they had a "Happy Holidays" banner that must have been in letters three feet high. I stepped under it, may Jesus forgive me, because I knew I had to get in there, but inside was no better. Some damn wreaths, here and there, and lots of lights, but no tree. I swear to God, no Christmas tree at all -- I looked everywhere. It was like being in Iraq or something.


I stumbled around with the rest of the shoppers. Everyone was in a daze, bumping into each other. I don't think any of us knew what to do, except just keep shopping, but I could tell everyone was thinking what I was. But I wasn't ready to see the DVD player prices, and I lost it.

"FIFTEEN F**KING PERCENT OFF?", I shouted. (Sorry for the language. This war has screwed us all up) -- "FIFTEEN F**KING PERCENT? WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE CELEBRATING THE BIRTH OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR HERE, AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS A F**KING FIFTEEN PERCENT OFF?"

I knew then that I was among heathens, and I dropped all the DVDs and batteries and stuff that I had scooped up, and just left. I swear, some days I don't understand what this war is even about.

Over and over it's the same. Every damn store. Some of them just say "Happy Holidays" out front, and I don't even go in. Most say Merry Christmas, but even then, it rings hollow. If they really were celebrating Jesus, they'd have more lights. The music would be louder. The giant inflatable snowmen would be bigger, and there'd be more of them. There was one place that had a little nativity scene, and that was cool, but the baby Jesus was laying in a manger and instead of straw, they had little optical fibers that glowed all sorts of different colors. But sometimes it glowed RED, because that was one of the colors in the cycle, and when that happened it looked like they were trying to barbecue the Baby Jesus and I had to leave.

I've seen a lot of pain, on a lot of faces. I know that "Holidays" and "HolyDays" are related, but it's not the same. One has an "I", and one has a "Y". One is about the self, and one is about the Holy Mystery.

Y. Y, indeed. These damn heathen bastards.

They're making us forget the Y.

I know a guy who ran right off the road, just last week. He was passing a Kentucky Fried Chicken (I know, they call themselves "KFC" now, but that's just so f**king stupid I can't even handle it) and they had on the sign out front, right under the price of a 12-piece family bucket:

"Seasons Greetings"

Dear sweet God. Of course, he ran right off the damn road. Even "Happy Holidays", you can sort of swallow hard and pretend you saw the Y and move on, but "Seasons Greetings?" It doesn't even sound human. It sounds like a brand of instant ****ing stuffing.

In fact, that's exactly what it sounds like. A brand of g**damn Satanic turkey stuffing. That's how far we've sunk, as Americans.


Wal-Mart was the best and the worst. Oh sure, they said Merry Christmas. Or maybe it was the guy outside ringing the bell that said Merry Christmas, I'm not sure -- I'm pretty sure the greeter said it too. But they had the DVD player like I was looking for, and at twentyfive bucks each I got two of them so the kids don't have to share.

I had to wait in line about a half hour, but I passed the time by talking to the person behind me in line, who was buying a bunch of clothes and stuff. I let her know which things Jesus would and wouldn't approve of, because I'm pretty good at knowing stuff like that. I thought that the Christmas Tree sweater with the little lights that light up using a teeny battery was pretty damn cool and a pretty good celebration of the Birth of Our Lord, but that I thought the socks had too much blue in them and not enough green. I also told her to make sure to check that the little snowman figurine wasn't made in a communist country, but we couldn't remember if Taiwan counted or not, so I told her it was probably OK, especially at that price.

It was all going OK until i got to the checkout and put everything down. The guy who was checking me out looked funny -- he was polite and cheerful, sure, but something was off about him. As he turned to recheck the price on a twentyfour pack of Rudolph and Frosty paper towels, because I was pretty sure the price was supposed to be sixty cents cheaper than it said, I saw what it was -- he was wearing a yarmulke (Is that how you spell it? Wierd, but I looked it up). Seriously, I'm not kidding, right in the middle of the store. What kind of person just rubs his religion right in your face like that?

I was prepared. My mind is always ready for these challenges, and I knew what to do. I waited for him to ring me up, and paid my money, and got my receipt.

"Merry Christmas," I said, experimentally.

"Merry Christmas," he replied cheerfully.

I narrowed my eyes with a snarl, and with all my strength, I hit him as hard as I could with the twentyfour pack of Rudolph and Frosty paper towels.

"What are you doing!?" the person behind me shrieked, lunging over the counter in a really ripping move to prevent the guy from knocking over a bin of $2.99 plastic mini flashlights. "He said Merry Christmas! He said it!"

"But HE DIDN'T MEAN IT!", I shouted as loud as I could. "LOOK AT THE HAT! HE DIDN'T MEAN IT!"

I gathered my bags up, but I was just getting started, and I lit into everyone in the whole store. "CHRISTMAS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT PEACE ON EARTH, ALL YOU G**DAMN COMMUNIST BASTARDS! WHEN WILL YOU GET THAT? PEACE ON EARTH! YOU HAVE TO MEAN IT!" I marched out of the store, head held high. Because all the Wal-Marts in the world, all the Targets, all the Circuit Cities -- they just don't get it. They don't understand.

How long must we be persecuted? Christmas is about Peace on Earth and Goodwill Towards All, and how dare the pagan alliance of liberals, non-Christians, hippies and multinational corporations turn this into a damn war zone, where I have to look at every damn sign, and second-guess every greeting, and measure every Christmas tree to make sure that everyone understands that like we do. This is OUR time of year, as Christians, to show the world what Christianity is, and that Peace on Earth and Goodwill Towards All isn't some hollow greeting card thing, but is the way we live our lives, and f**k them all if they can't see that. I, for one, will make sure that we understand about Peace On Earth if I have to hit every last damn greeter and fast food teenager and checkout person in America with a paper towel value pack. I'll boycott them all, until every last one of them understands that I am here in the name of Our Lord and Savior to bring PEACE ON EARTH if I have to shove it down every last throat. Especially the damn pagans.


Anyway, I'm so damn glad our church is closed this Sunday for Christmas, I need a break. Best thing they ever did, because you know come Monday, we are all going to need that strength to return oversized sweaters, and f**king ugly placemats, and all that made in China toy crap that breaks the first day. In Jesus' name we'll come back down on those malls and return stuff to celebrate Our Lord and Savior just like in the olden days, and besides it'll be good to have that Sunday to rest and just plug the new DVD players in and stuff.

Hope things are well there. I'll keep fighting, none of us want to leave before this job is done. Tell Uncle Bill I said hi and Merry Christmas and stuff, and that I'll be dead in the cold cold ground before I recognize the g**damn pagan "New Years".

Yours,

Hunter (%20http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/12/9/17144/7501)

LOL! That sounds like Chevy Chase's rant from Christmas Vacation.

"Hallelujah! Honey, where's the Tylenol?"

That was F**king Hillarious..and no I am not being sarcastic...that was great :LolLolLol

(Courtesy disgusted in st. louis (http://disgustedinstlouis.blogspot.com/2005/12/passion-of-oreilly.html)):


The Passion of The O'Reilly
The "inspiring" story of the "love" and "sacrifice"
of "our savior" in this "War on Christmas"

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5444/1281/1600/Passion_of_the_Oreilly.jpg

What's the fuss?

As for me, I say, "BAH! HUMBUG! Christmas is Christmas, no matter what you call it!" So, there! :fighting4 Commerce will do what commerce will do, and I doubt that commerce gives a flying fk about the religious aspects of the deal. For them, it's a time to make money, pure and simple. And, I really don't have a problem with that. That's how they, and their employees, make a living.

Now, I'm not particularly a religious person anymore ... maybe one day that will change. But, I'll damn well have my CHRISTMAS tree and I'll damn well watch "It's a Wonderful Life" again this year, and chances are good that there will be a Christmas Creche or two hangin' out in my house and I might even go to a Midnight Mass somewhere. Miracles can happen, you know?

Do I LIKE it that the stores are saying, "Holiday" instead of "Christmas" season? No. Am I gonna go ballistic if they do? No.

Today, and during all of OUR lifetimes of experiences, Christmas is Christmas. But, it might be good, too, to recall that many years heretofore it was the Christians who "stole" the season from the pagans and turned it into a religious occasion ... I mean, Jesus wasn't really born on December 25, was he?.

But am I gonna go to the stores to by my kids presents? Sure ... CHRISTMAS presents (or, as I sometimes said back in my "religious period", Christ Mass presents).

So, Bah! Humbug!

Oh. I just noticed.

What's the deal, OkcTalk, with that label above the wreath in the Mini-Mall area on the right side of my screen??? "HAPPY HOLIDAYS?" Why not "MERRY CHRISTMAS"? :LolLolLol

Scribe, that story was hilarious! That's one I'm going to have to pass along. :) WAY TO GO!



Oh. I just noticed.

What's the deal, OkcTalk, with that label above the wreath in the Mini-Mall area on the right side of my screen??? "HAPPY HOLIDAYS?" Why not "MERRY CHRISTMAS"? :LolLolLol

You are too funny, Doug! I love that you noticed this. :) :LolLolLol

Scribe, that story was hilarious! That's one I'm going to have to pass along. :) WAY TO GO!

You are too funny, Doug! I love that you noticed this. :) :LolLolLol
Actually, this WHOLE THREAD is kinda funny ... as in "crazy" funny, "funny" farm, etc. Whoever it was that said we at OkcTalk don't know how to have a good Christmas season at OkcTalk is CRAAAZY! :tweeted: :fighting3 :dizzy:

Does anyone remember the 7-11 radio commercial, probably 20 years ago ...

something like ... (disgruntled lady speaking) ... "Well, I bought my Christmas tree at 7-11 last year and we sure had a great Christmas! But, this year, I bought my tree somewhere else ... AND WE SURE HAD A PUNK CHRISTMAS!!!" ... or something like that. I thought it was a great commercial!

I wonder if they are selling "Holiday Trees" this year?

I know that I am new here, and I don't want to rock any boats, but I have to say something about the post that Scribe made. I know many of you thought it was a funny story, but I think it was very distasteful and disrespectful.

The foul language in the story was very offensive, especially making it look like it came from a Christian. I am assuming that since Scribe posted it, that the foul language in the story doesn't bother him. Making fun of Christmas is not a funny thing. Many people take Christmas very seriously, however, it looks like others don't.

No, Scribe, the story wasn't funny, it was very rude and crude.

Hi, Randy, welcome to OkcTalk.

There's room here for everyone to express their point of view, just like you did above. And, for you and Scribe, both Christians and neither of you likely having captured the exclusive market for the truth, it's fair for you both to do so. Actually, even if one of you had done so, the same principle applies.

Personally, I enjoyed Scribe's post very much ... even printed it out to give to some friends at work.

To each, his/her own.

I know that I am new here, and I don't want to rock any boats, but I have to say something about the post that Scribe made. I know many of you thought it was a funny story, but I think it was very distasteful and disrespectful.

The foul language in the story was very offensive, especially making it look like it came from a Christian. I am assuming that since Scribe posted it, that the foul language in the story doesn't bother him. Making fun of Christmas is not a funny thing. Many people take Christmas very seriously, however, it looks like others don't.

No, Scribe, the story wasn't funny, it was very rude and crude.
The story was meant to be provocative. I knew that those who would be offended were those who get hung up in the superficial issues (like foul language) and miss the fundamental "moral" of the story. As a Christian myself, I found the story to be a fairly accurate representation of the duplicity of many Christians today — you can substitute the foul language for bad attitude, rude behavior or any number of "lesser" sins that are often overlooked or ignored in the midst of our "outrage" at the world acting like the world.

Rather than being quick to take offense, perhaps you could take the time meditate on the underlying message and honestly examine if parts of it — any part of it — could be true. A religious spirit is quick to get hung up on the messenger and ignore the message — just ask the Pharisees.

Well, yes, SS, I agree ... vocabulary has little (actually, nothing, IMO) to do with what's in a person's heart ... good or bad ... but don't forget that some (not me) don't see such things that way ... so ... when people see things like ...

I stumbled around with the rest of the shoppers. Everyone was in a daze, bumping into each other. I don't think any of us knew what to do, except just keep shopping, but I could tell everyone was thinking what I was. But I wasn't ready to see the DVD player prices, and I lost it.

"FIFTEEN F**KING PERCENT OFF?", I shouted. (Sorry for the language. This war has screwed us all up) -- "FIFTEEN F**KING PERCENT? WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE CELEBRATING THE BIRTH OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR HERE, AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS A F**KING FIFTEEN PERCENT OFF?"

I knew then that I was among heathens, and I dropped all the DVDs and batteries and stuff that I had scooped up, and just left. I swear, some days I don't understand what this war is even about.
or ...

I had to wait in line about a half hour, but I passed the time by talking to the person behind me in line, who was buying a bunch of clothes and stuff. I let her know which things Jesus would and wouldn't approve of, because I'm pretty good at knowing stuff like that. I thought that the Christmas Tree sweater with the little lights that light up using a teeny battery was pretty damn cool and a pretty good celebration of the Birth of Our Lord, but that I thought the socks had too much blue in them and not enough green. I also told her to make sure to check that the little snowman figurine wasn't made in a communist country, but we couldn't remember if Taiwan counted or not, so I told her it was probably OK, especially at that price.
... they are offended ... their mamas/pappas brought them up in ways that made "form" more important than "substance". So, different people will take such kinds of things in different ways. Of course, you already know from previous exchanges here that I'm a pretty hopeless case and just enjoy good wit when I find it (examples, above) ... but others are not like me (or you) and there is, in fact, something to be said for not being intentionally provocative to those who don't see such things as funny, as I do.

Persuasion, as opposed to debate, considers (1) the audience and its characteristics and (2) how to best persuade THAT audience. Now, it may be that "persuasion" was not your object but that "debate" was.

In any event, I'm rarely persuaded in my own thought processes by anyone (you or Randy or anyone) effectively telling me that, "I'm right, and that's that", about ANYTHING, this topic included. When people tell me, "I'm right and that's about all there is to say about that", I tend to disregard their remarks as adversarial statements without any substance for me to consider ... the speaker's mind is made up and is not open to persuasion, and tI am of the firm opinion hat there are ALWAYS at least 2 (or more) sides to the substance of ANY issue.

Ohhh ... I see that I am again rambling very badly.

Let me just wrap this up by saying that ...

I've just screwed up my Christmas 2005 by buying a Christmas tree from my wife's grandson's Boy Scout Christmas Tree Lot ... and not from 7-11. I'm doomed!

That ... and THIS: OKCTALK: WHAT'S THE DEAL ABOUT "HAPPY HOLIDAYS" IN THE MINI-MALL AREA? Are you gonna fix that, or what? :fighting3

My hunch is that all of us tend to take ourselves and our opinions MUCH too seriously ... that is, everyone other than me! :kicking:

Well, yes, SS, I agree ... vocabulary has little (actually, nothing, IMO) to do with what's in a person's heart ... good or bad ... but don't forget that some (not me) don't see such things that way ... so ... when people see things like ...

or ...

... they are offended ... their mamas/pappas brought them up in ways that made "form" more important than "substance". So, different people will take such kinds of things in different ways. Of course, you already know from previous exchanges here that I'm a pretty hopeless case and just enjoy good wit when I find it (examples, above) ... but others are not like me (or you) and there is, in fact, something to be said for not being intentionally provocative to those who don't see such things as funny, as I do.


First of all, Mr. Loudenback (I know you prefer we call you Doug, but I like the formal for you), please avoid references to "SS" when referring to me. My enemies on this forum don't need any more fodder, if you get my drift...
:tiphat:

Beyond that, I agree with you. Believe me, I have friends and family who "don't see such things that way", so I'm not unaccustomed to that viewpoint. Generally, believe it or not, out of deference I normally avoid such references around those people (except on this forum, of course, because it is a TALK forum). Even so, at times, I do push the envelope a little to try to challenge "style" over "substance." I also know that people are easily offended and many easily offended Christians particularly forget the concept of grace, mercy and love (1 Cor. 13:4-8), which includes not easily taking offense (keep no record of wrongs, etc.).


Persuasion, as opposed to debate, considers (1) the audience and its characteristics and (2) how to best persuade THAT audience. Now, it may be that "persuasion" was not your object but that "debate" was.

In any event, I'm rarely persuaded in my own thought processes by anyone (you or Randy or anyone) effectively telling me that, "I'm right, and that's that", about ANYTHING, this topic included. When people tell me, "I'm right and that's about all there is to say about that", I tend to disregard their remarks as adversarial statements without any substance for me to consider ... the speaker's mind is made up and is not open to persuasion, and tI am of the firm opinion hat there are ALWAYS at least 2 (or more) sides to the substance of ANY issue.
Again, I agree. But I have also found that not only is that true of the speaker's mind but also most listeners. I think that persuasion is about as effective as debate anymore. People are too polarized to listen to others' viewpoints.

Not once (and if you find where I have anywhere, I'll readily acknowledge my error) have I ever said or contended "I'm right, and that's that." Anyone who has gone toe-to-toe with me who is honest will acknowledge that there have been a number of occasions where I have conceded the point, acknowledged my error or changed my mind. I don't believe nor do I claim to be right; I am open to someone persuading me (through debate or whatever form of rhetoric) that I am wrong and that another viewpoint has more merit than my own.

Conversely, I will challenge others' viewpoints and present my own (often with supporting evidence, examples, facts, documentation, etc.) to stir discussion and thought on a topic. At times, I will passionately and aggressively pursue the matter to try to help others recognize that an opposing viewpoint might have some valid points and reasoning. Such is the case with this debate in particular. Notice that my challenge is toward those I share (in general) a faith with — i.e. Christianity. I recognize that I have a minority viewpoint within the American Church, but that doesn't mean that my viewpoint shouldn't be heard. However, because my opinion goes against what's heard in many pulpits and by some very powerful Christian leaders (not necessarily Biblically), I'm oft accused of not really being a Christian. I have a God and Savior who know otherwise, and that's all that matters to me. But I want to challenge Christians to examine how we act and what kind of witness that shows those we are trying to reach. Too many American Christians are more concerned about their rights than they are about their true mission (although they don't see it that way).

(Now you have me rambling, Doug.)

I appreciate you raising these issues... I'll be quiet now.

Not that most will be surprised but I wasn't at all offended by the post Scribe - I thought it was quite appropriate considering the amazing amount of attention being placed on this "War". I, for one, wonder if Christmas will even take place this year considering the toll this War has taken on the holiday. All of these laws restricting my abilility to say Merry Christmas, use Christmas trees, display nativity scenes or make reference to Jesus being the reason for the season. The fear of what could happen to me if I express my religious belief is overwhelming. After all, this is an attack on my personal rights and we must stand up for our personal rights!

It is very easy to focus on the external (one's use of "foul language", smoking, drinking, the clothes one wears, their stance on one political issue, how they express pleasantries during the holiday) to determine their "true attitiude" as a Christian. In Jesus day, the Pharisees were experts in this very practice. They publically displayed obedience for the religious law as well as anyone in their day yet consistently missed the "spirit of the law". Christianity (as most relgions do) has always struggled with overcoming the external as the ultimate measure of sincerity. What was supposed to make Christianity different was Love expressed through sacrifice. Ultimately, that is what is missing from Christmas, Christians and the current climate that wants to mix politics and religion. That is why Christ appears to be missing more and more every year from this season - - it is just much easier to blame those pesky atheists and the ACLU.

Luke 11:42-46, "Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone... One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also." Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. "

First of all, Mr. Loudenback (I know you prefer we call you Doug, but I like the formal for you), please avoid references to "SS" when referring to me. My enemies on this forum don't need any more fodder, if you get my drift...
:tiphat:
Not a problem ... no implied attribution with the shorthand ... it just takes more keystrokes, don't you know? But why do you prefer, "Mr.", for me, Mr. Scribe? Or, is that a question I'd be better off not asking?! :elmer3:

But, I expect that you are right about that most people have their minds made up ... very polarized thinking, probably at both ends of the spectrum ... and that lots of people aren't open to persuasion. But, I'd suppose that some are!


I'll be quiet now.
Ha! I hope not! I enjoy your thought provoking posts! :spin:

Not a problem ... no implied attribution with the shorthand ... it just takes more keystrokes, don't you know? But why do you prefer, "Mr.", for me, Mr. Scribe? Or, is that a question I'd be better off not asking?! images/Smailies%2001-28-08/elmer3.gif
I often refer to those I have great respect by Mr. (and I sometimes say it because it makes you feel old.)
http://www.okctalk.com/images/Smailies%2001-28-08/boff.gif


"S", "Mr. S", "Scribe", "PIA" (pain-in-the-ass) or "Jerk" are all acceptable references. SS is just about the only one (that I can think of right now) that is not.




But, I expect that you are right about that most people have their minds made up ... very polarized thinking, probably at both ends of the spectrum ... and that lots of people aren't open to persuasion. But, I'd suppose that some are!

No argument here.



Ha! I hope not! I enjoy your thought provoking posts! images/Smailies%2001-28-08/spin.gif

Awwww, you brought a tear to my eye! :Smiley099

This part killed me. http://homepage.mac.com/mercator/.Pictures/lool.gif

This is OUR time of year, as Christians, to show the world what Christianity is, and that Peace on Earth and Goodwill Towards All isn't some hollow greeting card thing, but is the way we live our lives, and f**k them all if they can't see that. I, for one, will make sure that we understand about Peace On Earth if I have to hit every last damn greeter and fast food teenager and checkout person in America with a paper towel value pack.



My enemies on this forum don't need any more fodder, if you get my drift...
For the record (and in the spirit of the season), I know that you and I don't agree on a lot of stuff, but I really do enjoy your posts and our arguments - otherwise I wouldn't keep coming back :). I know I don't consider anyone here an enemy and I hope no one else here considers me as one.

Merry effin' Christmas you argumentative SOB! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Mad_Monk/cheers.gif

:LolLolLol

Thanks, MadMonk! I certainly don't consider you an enemy, just a very worthy foe. There are others far less gracious than your respectful disagreements with me, and I truly appreciate it. (Look at me getting all warm and fuzzy with MadMonk!!! I've been overcome with the spirit of the season!)

Merry Christmahanukwanzikah!

You guys and your warm fuzzies are going to make me sick. :dizzy:

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you!

You guys and your warm fuzzies are going to make me sick. :dizzy:

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you!

Right on, SweetDaisy! Bah! Humbug! And what about the "Happy Holidays" label in the Mini-Mall area. DOESN'T ANYONE CARE?!? :LolLolLol

And what about the "Happy Holidays" label in the Mini-Mall area. DOESN'T ANYONE CARE?!? :LolLolLol


I think it's an ACLU conspiracy....

Group Hug!!




:Smiley193

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hug) )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hug) )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Well, I guess that you guys are just not going to give in on my Bah! Humbug! stuff what with the "group hugs" and all. I give up. You win. Let's all have a ...

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

... and then I'll tell you about my 7-11 Christmas tree ... or not. Love you all! Good will to all persons! Joy to the World! And to all a good night!

Well, I guess that you guys are just not going to give in on my Bah! Humbug! stuff. I give up. You win.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Your no fun Doug :) bah humbug ...

Your no fun Doug :) bah humbug ...
The Christians made me do it. It's not my fault.
I stuck with Bah Humbug(!) for as long as I coud last ... but ... I was overcome ... and now I am a convert.

Merry Christmas, or else.

Of course, I'm kidding, again, but no more in this post. I guess it's time for me to be serious, since I'm moved to do so at this moment.

I love Christmas. It's the very best time of the year!

For some of you, it is the fondest and most gentle time to be close to your religious savior. I think, if I remember correctly, I would have said the same many years hence.

For me, today, its the fondest and dearest time for me to be close to my family, my wonderful wife (now 21 years), my sweet baby daughter (32 now) and baby boy son (38 now), and various grandchildren and step-siblings, etc., thown between the cracks, and to consider and be overcome by the imponderable, pervasive and overwhelming force ... love ... the glue that makes all of those who are inclined to be so bound to each other be voluntarily and gratefully bound into that effective union of closely held-togehter affectionate beings, souls, if you you want. We would not like it if there was a breach in the unit and we would be pained by such a tear. We value the "bond", which, in another way of looking at it, we value in some manner that we are "not free" since we do not want to be. This makes no logical sense, does it? I do not understand it and I do not need to, since I accept and value it. What is the source of this sense? God? Maybe. Jesus? Maybe? Something else? Maybe. But, certainly the baby Jesus in all of his innosence, and all of the perhaps egrandized (or not) biblical events surrounding his birth, make it easy enough for anyone to focus on the purity, and value, of love. So, yes, even for an almost-not Chrstian like me, Jesus is central to my point of view but in a less doctrinare way than I once held to be true.

Chirstmas is also a time to ponder and wonder in a quiet and gentle way ... beginning centrist and going outward ... how wonderful a thing it is to love, and to be loved ... by and toward those who are most closely entwined with you ... and to consider how I might better love those who I call my own ... and how I might better love those beyond them, who are also my brothers and sisters ... and how it is that that sweet baby Jesus might imact the choices I make in that respect.

These are quite a few "religous" things for me to say, aren't they, in my "non-religious period"?

Love you all, and I wish you all a wonderful Christmas and the peace and warmth of the good hearts that all of us truly do have. I hope that you enjoy the warmth, and enjoy the peace, of the season, which for some of us is heightend and enhanced this one time every year, if for no reason than we think about it a little more than we do at other times. If that's so, that makes the value of this time all the greater. I have no "scripture quotations" or other "authoritative sources" for this point of view ... all I am able to do is to convey the thoughts and feelings of one single person, who claims no authority, but who thinks about Christmas when it comes each year, and what it means to me.

I'd made a few corrections/changes to the above post but my "editing" time expried. Nothing particurlary important. That's life!

Very nice post, Doug.

[QUOTE=okieopus]Thanks Scribe.



The "attack on Christmas" bloviating morons like Bill O'Rielly made it up!

i know he totally made it up! like he would say put down the kool aid. i'd like to see you prove that he made it up. youve been reading too many news papers, man.


every one have a happy ramahaunakwanzmas!

[QUOTE=okieopus]Thanks Scribe.

The "attack on Christmas" bloviating morons like Bill O'Rielly made it up!

i know he totally made it up! like he would say put down the kool aid. i'd like to see you prove that he made it up. youve been reading too many news papers, man.

every one have a happy ramahaunakwanzmas!

I'm not sure if you're referring to okieopus or myself, but I'll chime in anyway.

Yes, yes... you are right from dust. We are all better off sticking our head in the sand than "reading too many news papers." Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Here's a sampling of some of what I learned the past couple of weeks from "reading too many news papers," as demonstrated in the Bill O'Reilly thread (http://www.okctalk.com/t4944-is-bill-oreilly-a-god.html):


"Bill O'Reilly is making the claim that Saginaw Township officials banned residents from wearing red and green during the holiday season. Local officials say he's dead wrong." (Read story here (http://www.wnem.com/Global/story.asp?S=4235657))


"Bill O'Reilly (http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/people/billoreilly) falsely claimed that the U.S. Postal Service (USPS) no longer offers Christmas postage stamps with a "spiritual" theme... In fact, in addition to the "Holiday Cookies (http://mediamatters.org/rd?http://shop.usps.com/cgi-bin/vsbv/postal_store_non_ssl/display_products/productCategory.jsp?prodCat=/Stamps+by+Subject/Holiday+Cookies)" stamps the caller cited, the USPS continues to offer the commemorative "Madonna and Child (http://mediamatters.org/rd?http://shop.usps.com/cgi-bin/vsbv/postal_store_non_ssl/display_products/productDetail.jsp?OID=4849178)" stamp." (Read the story here (http://mediamatters.org/items/200512130005))


"On December 9, Bill O'Reilly (http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/people/billoreilly) falsely claimed on both Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor and the nationally syndicated The Radio Factor with Bill O'ReillyPlano Independent School District (http://mediamatters.org/rd?http://www.pisd.edu/) (Texas) "told students they couldn't wear red and green because they were Christmas colors." He labeled the alleged ban "fascism." On December 12, the school district released an official statement (http://mediamatters.org/rd?http://www.pisd.edu/news/archive/2005-06/oreilly.report.shtml) by Superintendent of Schools Dr. Doug Otto refuting O'Reilly's contention: "The school district does not restrict students or staff from wearing certain color clothes during holiday times or any other school days," noted Dr. Otto, who said that the school district's attorney has requested that Mr. O'Reilly retract the statement." (Read the story here (http://mediamatters.org/items/200512130006))

I, for one, am not claiming that there is not effort by a few non-Christian secularists to remove religious symbols and overt religious expression from public places; it's nothing new. However, I am challenging Bill O'Reilly's crusade against a vast conspiracy to "take Christ out of Christmas." There may be a small minority who is doing just that, but IMHO there is no massively coordinated "War on Christmas." And, indeed, Bill O'Reilly is making much of it up, as illustrated in the above three examples.

Scribe, with characters such as the one below, how can you possibly contend that there's no war on Christmas?

http://mark.excogito.org/grinch%2001.gif

Touché

It's pretty easy to take the Christ out of Christmas when it wasn't a Christian holiday in the first place. Shepards bringing gifts to the baby Jesus? Come now, when he was purported to have been born, there were no shepards in the fields with their sheep. If you want to celebrate whatever you wish to celebrate on Dec 25, go for it, just don't expect everyong else to just fall in line if they don't agree. No, the stores are not filling their tills on the backs of Jesus, Jeesh!!!!!!!!!!

I noticed today on some standardized court-type paperwork from Cleveland County that they now referred to the Christmas Holiday as the "Winter Break."

I know that I am new here, and I don't want to rock any boats, but I have to say something about the post that Scribe made. I know many of you thought it was a funny story, but I think it was very distasteful and disrespectful.

The foul language in the story was very offensive, especially making it look like it came from a Christian. I am assuming that since Scribe posted it, that the foul language in the story doesn't bother him. Making fun of Christmas is not a funny thing. Many people take Christmas very seriously, however, it looks like others don't.

No, Scribe, the story wasn't funny, it was very rude and crude.


Methinks someone should be asking Santa for a sense of humor next Holiday season..

Shepards bringing gifts to the baby Jesus? Come now, when he was purported to have been born, there were no shepards in the fields with their sheep.

You make a claim here. Have any facts to back it up?


I didn't think so.

You make a claim here. Have any facts to back it up?


I didn't think so.

Actually Jack, In your honor, I will find some definite references for you, but just off the top of my head, common sense. That was not the season for the sheep to be out doing what sheep do, it was coooooooooooold and they were put up so the shepards could be home in their warm beds with their wives.

You make a claim here. Have any facts to back it up?


I didn't think so.

In What Month Was Jesus' Born?
The month and day of Jesus' birthday is also unknown. However, we can be fairly certain that it was not DEC-25.

THE SHEPHERDS: Luke 2:8 mentions that shepherds were living in their fields keeping watch over their flocks during the nighttime (and, one would assume, also during the daytime.) This is a good indication that Jesus' birth did not happen in December when the flocks would have already have been moved from the fields to pens. They were only in the fields during the hotter months. There is a remark in the Talmud that flocks were put out to grass in March and brought in during the beginning of November. During the Jewish month of Heshvan (our October/November) the fall rains hit and the animals are penned up. At best, the passage narrows down the birth month to one of 7 months in the late spring, summer, or early fall. Actually, there more references on this subject that any one person has the time or fortutide to explore, but if you are so inclined, hre are a few reference. These references will lead to other references and so on:
http://petragrail.tripod.com/page5.html
http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a012.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-traditions.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_date.htm

I do hope that this post at least shows that I genuinely attempted to respond to your post. If you will notice, not one of these urls are of a non-biblical origin, I could have offerred many more that were not, but if the Bible is your reference for your beliefs and practices, I felt that it would be a good place to begin.