The mall manager at Penn Square shed some light on why management at Crossroads "may" not be doing much with the property.

"Fair questions and I am asked about Crossroads often. Even the Mayor asked for my opinion on that recently.

Let me go back and talk about some personal examples about malls I have managed.
My first mall was in Fort Wayne, Indiana. It was on the less affluent side of town. Most of the larger homes, the "better" school systems and a newer, better, shinier mall was across town. I managed to hold it together and had some success, but about 5 years after I left, it was torn down and made into a strip center.
Later, I managed Eastland Mall in Tulsa. Eastland was an attractive 600,000 square foot mall in a terrible location and overpowered by Woodland Hills. I loved that mall and worked my heart out to keep it going. One of my proudest victories was opening an Old Navy store in the mall. Trouble was, after the first year, it was the second lowest volume store in the chain and closed 2 years later. The J C Penney store was also low volume and unprofitable and closed 2 years ago. Once in a low volume spiral it is hard to pull out. Eastland is now only 40% leased and will probably close in a few years.

There is a social phenomenon that young people especially, want to shop at the "hot" malls and will drive past the B level malls even if they have many of the same stores.

Two things happen to malls that aren't on top. One is that new retailers won't go there even if the rent is a giveaway. Most national retailers are public companies and Wall Street looks at sales per square foot. They can only handle so many new openings each year, so they would rather pay high rent at a successful property than free rent at a low volume mall. Even with high rent, a million dollar volume store is more profitable than a half million dollar store with almost free rent.

The second is the use of the developers capital. Simon has a huge pot of capital funding which it spends to upgrade existing properties each year. Spending a million dollars at successful malls like Penn generate immediate and significant return on investment. When we still owned Heritage Park, we needed to spend a few million to upgrade, but the return would be minimal and only Band-Aid the problems. As a public company, we need to maximize the use of money.

Macerich could spend money at Crossroads, but would that help enough to make people shop there? They have difficult access, a poor location to market to affluent customersand there are other bigger, stronger centers in the community. The manager at Crossroads is an old friend of mine and he is a very talented guy. He also faces that old north side / south side perception in OKC and a group of theaters on property which can create teen problems.
The GM closing will hurt Crossroads. I don't envy his job."

Very interesting perspective... Thanks for sharing that, Partick.


OKC simply has too many enclosed malls and there is also a shift to "power centers" and deep discount retailers. Not only are malls not as popular, the large department stores that anchor them are less and less profitable and are consolidating rapidly.


Crossroads lost an anchor (or two?) and can't replace it/them effectively, and that really hurts.

I worked in that mall when I was a student at OU at an up-scale clothing store called Orbach's. Orbach's did very well there but ultimately closed in the 80's when the economy tanked and Quail Springs opened and Penn Square was renovated and expanded. The mall really took a turn south at that point and it's been downhill ever since.


So, there are market forces that have hurt malls in general but OKC leadership has blood on their hands too, because approving Quail Springs was *way* premature... That mall struggled for a very long time and ultimately had a lot to do with cannabalizing Crossroads.

I think as a whole, it's the open air concept that's killing enclosed malls in poor demographic areas. When I was out shopping today, the parking lots at Target, Wal-Mart, and Quail Springs Marketplace, were much busier than Quail Springs Mall. I always wonder, had Penn Square not expanded, would it be the Utica Square of today.

Patrick, it's not the open-air concept, it's the deep discount retailers that inhabit them that has really changed the shopping landscape.

Not just Wal-Mart but PetsMart, Home Depot, TJ Maxx, Marshalls, Bed Bath & Beyond, Lowes, Kohls, Best Buy, etc., etc.


None of these retailers were much of a factor 20 years ago and the population has not grown enough to absorb all of them plus keep the traditional retailers afloat.

A lot of have already folded like Wards, John A. Brown, Rothschilds and then the major department stores have really consolidated. There's really only Macy's and Dillard's these days (at the upper end) and Penney's and Sears (which is now owned by K-Mart) at the other.

Out here, the mall closest to me has two Macy's and two Robinson's Mays (mergers), and Macy's just bought R/M!

I think stores like Macy's, Dillards, etc. will always have their place. They cater to a different group of people, namely, those looking for more upscale clothes. Seems like the department stores that are struggling are those that were more low end, like Wards, Sears, etc. I'm surprised JC Penney does so well, but they seem to market to a select group of people (mostly the middle class)....and do a good job at it. JC Penney has clearly positioned itself well, above Wal-Mart, but below Macy's. Had Wards stepped up a notch, they might not have struggled as much. Problem is, their clothes, electronics, etc. were similar to those found at Wal-Mart, only Wal-Mart is cheaper.

Sears is struggling for a similar reason. In the area of clothing, the only thing keeping Sears afloat is Landsend. If it weren't for Landsend and Craftsman, Sears would be history. Wards had no identifiable brands like that.

Seems like those malls that are succeeding in today's market, are clearing differentiating themselves from strip malls by offering upscale stores like Coach, Rockport, Gucci, etc. Malls that were geared to meet the needs of the middle class, simply aren't succeeding.

This is where I think Quail Springs has to be careful. They're catering to families, mostly. Problem is, most of those families are spending more money at the discount stores across the street.

I live and work by Quail Springs Mall, and I have been through their parking lot 6 times today, and every time it was virtually full. You must have caught it at an odd time, Patrick.

Well, I did stop in at Heritage Park today, and it had about the same level of traffic one would expect for a Saturday in June, which, for a Black Friday, is disastrous. It's probably a good thing it didn't occur to me to go by Crossroads.

I live and work by Quail Springs Mall, and I have been through their parking lot 6 times today, and every time it was virtually full. You must have caught it at an odd time, Patrick.

Oh, Quail Springs was plenty full. But, I didn't think it was as jammed as the shopping centers were. Best Buy this morning was at a stand still.

Well, I did stop in at Heritage Park today, and it had about the same level of traffic one would expect for a Saturday in June, which, for a Black Friday, is disastrous. It's probably a good thing it didn't occur to me to go by Crossroads.

LOL! I'm not even sure who owns Heritage Park anymore. I'm just waiting for the wrecking ball.

My wife and I just got back from Crossroads Mall this evening. The Foleys at Quail and Penn didn't have what she wanted, so we headed down to the foleys at Crossroads.

I guess I haven't been to Crossroads in a long time. I was very surprised. I can honestly say I will never go back to that mall, especially at night. We didn't feel safe at all inside that mall. There were several hispanic gangs gathering on either side of the mall. While we were there, the police were putting two guys in handcuffs and hauling them off. The two guys must've been high on something...they were yelling and threatening several of the workers at kiosks. Some dude kept asking us for money to help him get to who knows where. The clientate was horrible. Nothing against minorities, but I felt like I was one of a very few white people in the mall.

Maybe I'm starting to understand Macerich's delimna. Why spend a lot of money making that mall nice, when gangbangers are the primary group shopping there?

I have two suggestions to help eliminate this problem.

1. Turn security over to the Oklahoma County Sheriff's office. They already have a community liason office there so why not have off duty deputies patrol the mall. The constand presence of marked sheriff's vehicles and uniformed deputies would force the idiots to find a new place to play.

2. Adopt a no loitering rule/curfew for minors like Quail Springs has done. If thier not shopping they can leave. Parents and Teens need to understand a mall is not a youth center or daycare its a retail business. You don't dump your kids off at Albertson's or Mathis Brothers to play so why would you do it at the mall.

Crossroads is probably happy to have the traffic. :)


Seriously, malls out here have very strict rules about loitering and employ real security. Most the time, they're pretty successful in keeping things under control.

Unfortunately, that wouldn't change the clientale, but it might make people feel safer. Unfortunately, that area attracts people like that.

Unfortunately, that wouldn't change the clientale, but it might make people feel safer. Unfortunately, that area attracts people like that.
I was at Crossroads Mall this evening, picking up a Chick-Fil-A sandwich. I had no problem finding a parking place, however, there were quite a few people there. There is one thing I noticed at the mall that I did not know about.

Across from Chick-Fil-A, they are bringing in a Sonic. Now, this may be old news, but it is the first time I have seen the Sonic sign. I really believe that Sonic will do good in Crossroads.

We all know that they could improve things just by simply putting some money into the place.

Security improvements are just the beginning.

I think the biggest mistake they ever made was allowing the shopping center between Ramada and the old best buy to be built in the first place. Now you can barely see the mall because the shopping center is now blocking the view. All you can see now is the backside of a half vacant shopping center.

That center would have been a better fit where the regal theater is now or even better yet on the backside of the mall. If it were placed there it would have blocked the view of the landfill and white trash Valley Brook.

Fitting those stores into the mall instead of building in a strip center would've been a better option. Best Buy does have a few mall locations around the country. Also, as we've all said, connecting the movie theater to the mall would've been better.

It's not that Oklahoma City has too many enclosed malls. Oklahoma City followed a trend that was once nationally popular. But those days are over. They are long gone.

The only two malls that will survive and thrive are Penn Square Mall and Quail Springs Mall. Both offer the stores and entertainment that is in constant demand. Crossroads Mall and Heritage Park Mall may ultimately close. Because so many security issues are a constant concern at Crossroads, and given the increasing expense of a potential renovation, Crossroads will face closure. Because far south Oklahoma City is growing fast in both population and wealth, it is more likely a more appealing retail development project will appear four or fives miles south of Crossroads' current location.

In this scenario, it's important we focus on influencing such a development to enhance our quality of life as a city. Is Macerich a good property owner? No. But this thread has brought to light what the manager is trying to do with what he has. And I commend him for his efforts. However, with all the mall can ever offer, Oklahoma City has moved on from Crossroads. And with GM closing, we're better off reworking that entire area. Besides, what tourist wants to visit an ancient dark-horse mall with a landfill in sight?

Not many cities were green-lighting new malls in the middle of cow pastures and at a time when the other area malls were doing okay but not great.

When QS opened, it took a very long time before the traffic picked up. It was a ghost town for much of the 80's, especially after Penn Square was remodeled.

Since then, the malls have been canabalizing each other and Crossroads is the clear loser.

I've spent quite a bit of time at Quail Springs Mall since it opened. I can't remember when it was a ghost town. Seems to me it was always pretty busy.

I always wonder, had Penn Square not expanded, would it be the Utica Square of today.

It may have become just that. Shopping was enjoyable at Penn Square before it was enclosed but 'indoor shopping' rules. Shopping at Utica Square is a real treat. The old Redding, now SW Integris or similar, was great but not the quality of Utica Square.
Prunepicker

I actually prefer outdoor shopping myself. It has a more market style feel which i think makes it a little more enjoyable than being stuck inside :)

i've always enjoyed utica square...i think because it's established, like highland park village in dallas. even some of the newer 'lifestyle' places being created don't have that certain charm that both of these places possess.

QS had a decent amount of vacancy and really suffered in the 80's when the new Penn Square opened.


Simply put, there has never been a time when all three regional malls have been successful at the same time.

Also, as we've all said, connecting the movie theater to the mall would've been better.

Clearly adding the theatre is what has helped Quail Springs become as crowded as it is, along with the remodel. I just wish they would do something to the outside. All the brown brick doesn't do it for me.

Something I was thinking about... If they do tear down Crossroads, what should be done with the land? It doesn't seem like it would make sense to build any more retail on that spot.

Adding movie theaters to malls does increase traffic flow. But, studies have shown that movie goers actually turn away shoppers. Ask security at QS, and you'll find that their job has become a lot busier since the theater opened. It mostly attracts teens on the weekends. Parents tend to drop their kids off and expect the theater to baby sit. The reason Woodland Hills in Tulsa hasn't tried to attract a theater, and the reason PS doesn't try to attract a larger theater, is because of the teen problems they would create, and the negative impact they'd have on shopping.

I noticed on a recent trip to DFW, that even Grapevine Mills has their theater detached from the mall.

Still, Crossroads could really use the traffic right now.

The other big negative with incorporating a big theater in a mall is parking.


It can be a good idea, but there are definitely downsides as Patrick mentioned.

Crossroad has a great location because of the highways, but the surrounding area is a dump (figatively and literaly speaking). I live south side and if I want to go to the mall but don't want to drive all the way to Penn I just go to sooner fashion mall in norman.

I think that if Crossroad was to improve they should model more after sooner than penn. Penn is the best mall in OKC if not the state and I really don't think crossroad can be transform to be more like penn with the current management and the surrounding area. I would like crossroad to first get new floors their current floor scream cheap and ghetto. There is alot to do to fix crossroad but I think that this should be their number one improvement.

On a cold blustery day like today, I am glad I do my shopping at Penn Square and not Utica Square.

On a cold blustery day like today, I am glad I do my shopping at Penn Square and not Utica Square.

Good point. And Penn Square combined with 50 Penn now has almost everything that Utica has.

I wonder what their next excuse is going to be now that the Pole Road tantrum is over.

__________________________________________________ ________________

Mall happy Pole Road won't close
By Clytie Bunyan
Business Editor

I'd bet Gov. Brad Henry doesn't have a clue just how merry he's making this Christmas for Crossroads Mall owner and merchants, not to mention the folks at the south chamber of commerce.
(cbunyan@oklahoman.com)



Actually, their holiday season probably will be more peaceful -- as in peace of mind.

That's because a months-long feud with the state Transportation Department appears to be over.

"We've heard from the governor's office," mall spokeswoman Christi Parks said. "ODOT is doing further traffic studies this holiday season and will put together an alternative design that will keep Pole Road. It will remain open."

And that's a huge relief to the folks that operate stores in the mall. They know what it's like to be traffic-starved because construction blocked a thoroughfare. They endured 13 months of reduced traffic that ended in May last year when the Transportation Department completed work on the bridge at SE 66 and Interstate 35.

Pole Road, just east of the Interstate 35 and 240 junction, is the No. 1 access to Crossroads. Forty percent of mall visitors use the exit. But ODOT had designs on the road -- to close it as part of a plan to reconstruct the I-35 and I-240 interchange.

That would mean most people who go to the mall would have to drive about another half mile -- to Eastern Avenue then turn around and use the frontage road to get to their destination. It's not the most convenient route. Although it's interrupted by a stop sign and traffic lights, Pole Road leads directly into the 91-acre mall's parking lots.

But more than the closing of Pole Road was at stake. ODOT's original plan also put off-mall businesses such as Best Buy, Texas Roadhouse restaurant and nearby hotels at risk for removal to make way for the new interchange.

So mall merchants and their supporters took their fight to the city and the governor's office.

"We really reacted vigorously on this one," Parks said. "Traffic dropped 12 percent during the time the 66 Exit was closed, and that exit doesn't have nearly as much traffic."

Now ODOT's focus will move from the commercial area on the mall side of the interchange to an apartment complex and an adjacent older neighborhood on the northwest side of the junction. That's sure to bring a new fuss from those property owners as ODOT pushes toward beginning work on the interchange in 2007.

But folks, just remember the term "eminent domain." Long before the U.S. Supreme Court's June ruling that expanded eminent domain for economic development purposes, governments traditionally used their eminent domain authority to build roads.

Speaking of fuss
Plans are under way for a 2007 bond issue to revitalize SW 44, between I-44 and I-35, and the south chamber is getting people who live and work in the area involved.

"We're trying to figure what the community and businesses want the area to look like," said Elaine Lyons, the chamber's president and chief executive officer.

Those are sure to be ego-filled sessions as everyone is bound to have the best idea. Pity the person or group that makes the final decision. A town center concept already is being considered for the Blackwelder to Walker Avenue stretch of the thoroughfare.

This won't change anything. Even now with Pole Rd. open they're not doing anything to improve the mall. But, as I've said before, I can see now why they may not be interested in investing money in the mall. Look at who shops there.

If the mall management keeps using the type of people that frequent the mall as an excuse, then there will never be any changes to the mall. If Bricktown can be turned from a dusty, dilapidated warehouse district into the entertainment mecca that is is today, I think things can be turned around in the Crossroads area. If you improve a place substantially enough, it'll drive the rif raf out of the area. I think that the idea of tearing down the mall and rebuilding is the only way to go. It'll draw the more affluent crowd to the mall and will be the crown jewel of south OKC. The mall is so outdated that they really cannot add on to the current design. Why build another mall further south if you can drastically upgrade in the current area. I don't think there is better mall access in the entire metro. If the rebuild does come to fruition, then it should be at least 1.5 million square feet with upscale stores such as Lord & Taylor, Macy's or Nordstrom. I really believe there are more rich people in the south metro than poor ones. Perhaps we should all bypass Christy Parks and Company and go straight to the owners of the mall by emailing them with our concerns and the negative impact and bad image it is causing this part of OKC.

I certainly don't think this is the remedy but it's relevant, some may think remotely. Sometime ago I heard on Paul Harvey that a mall had been overun with undesireable people, i.e. gang types. Management started playing classical music over speaker system. The undesirealbles left.

Prunepicker

I certainly don't think this is the remedy but it's relevant, some may think remotely. Sometime ago I heard on Paul Harvey that a mall had been overrun with undesirable people, i.e. gang types. Management started playing classical music over speaker system. The undesirables left.

Prunepicker

How about this for a reason, it's a mall!

Malls are dying everywhere. The internet, The big box, and open air centers killed them.

Why should you even care anymore? Eastland in Tulsa is even worse than Crossroads, no one is lamenting it's demise, just wondering what comes next for that site. Tulsa has three indoor malls, soon to be two. At one time Tulsa had three malls at 41st and Yale, at one intersection! Tulsa had eight indoor malls by my count in the late eighties, very soon that number will be two. The malls that are gone have been converted to office space (2) torn down (1) converted to a mega church (1) and the last one was converted to a big box center.

Yeah I remember going to the Galleria mall in Tulsa that had the Sheraton Kensington attached. I remember really liking it, but it was dying even then 12-13 years ago. That's where TVGuide is now, right Swake?

I think Swake is right about focusing more on what can be done with the space once the mall closes, because I think it's inevitable.

I worked there for years, at TV Guide. It's a really nice facility. The attached hotel made things interesting, what with the bars and the rooms for "get-aways" in the building. Dish Network bought several divisions of TV Guide and the two split the space now.

Downtown the Forum Mall is now office space for Williams. They also have an attached hotel.

"I really believe there are more rich people in the south metro than poor ones."

You are kidding, right? South OKC has a wealthy zip code. Emphasis on the "A"...of course, it all depends on your definition of "rich" I suppose.

Try 73170 and portions of 73160 and 73159 for starters.

Last time I checked, 73159 is the wealthiest zip in the city, if not the state.

Last time I checked, 73159 is the wealthiest zip in the city, if not the state.

Maybe, but this shows at least a few others with higher income levels and property values in the city and Nichols Hills:

http://www.hometownusa.com/ok/Oklahoma_City.html
http://www.hometownusa.com/ok/Nichols_Hills.html

Last time I checked, 73159 is the wealthiest zip in the city, if not the state.

Are you kidding me? 73159 is no where close to being the wealthiest zip in the state, or CITY for that matter. Where'd you get your info from?

City-data.com reports 1999 median household income numbers (first dollar amount); Livingchoices.com gives a later (but undated) MHI.

73151 - $84,232 - $86,730
73131 - $64,159 - $63,020
73170 - $61,194 - $66,297
73162 - $57,181 - $59,983
73173 - $55,714 - $60,881
73150 - $54,792 - $59,894
73179 - $51,375 - $47,765
73165 - $49,572 - $52,499
73116 - $46,478 - $50,954
73169 - $45,950 - $47,365

Mild shifts here and there, nothing too surprising.

All three Edmond ZIPs (two of which include large chunks of OKC) would fit into the middle of this range.

Are you kidding me? 73159 is no where close to being the wealthiest zip in the state, or CITY for that matter. Where'd you get your info from?

Whoops. Sorry, I meant 73170. I copied the wrong one.

if you guys want to be a big time major league city, then you should open one huge mall near bricktown...i.e. the galleria in dallas...that would bring a lot more people...if you guys are serious about becoming a major league city, not only with a pro sports team, then go for it. There is so much potential. OKC GALLERIA!!!!!!!!!!

I think there are plenty of potential "affluent" shoppers who would shop at Crossroads.
I think security is handled well at Crossroads but it won't matter to upper scale shoppers because they won't shop there if they feel uncomfortable. Even if they don't feel threatened they prob wouldn't want to see the undesirables anyway.

There aren't enough stores to shop at. The mall has been becoming a flea market.
The money spending shoppers aren't going to bother shopping at a mall without any quality retail stores.

I think the play center was a pretty good idea.

Location, location, location. Crossroads was always a marginal location and it hasn't improved. Surrounded my industrial uses with the back sides of added pad site buildings fronting on I-35. The place is butt ugly and not likely to improve. It's doomed. It could become a low end commercial office complex similar to Shepherd Mall over time.

if you guys want to be a big time major league city, then you should open one huge mall near bricktown...i.e. the galleria in dallas...that would bring a lot more people...if you guys are serious about becoming a major league city, not only with a pro sports team, then go for it. There is so much potential. OKC GALLERIA!!!!!!!!!!

Nixon, couldnt agree more!!! :)

So much POTENTIAL!!! in OKC.