View Full Version : Tulsans simply don't get it



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okcpulse
11-29-2005, 10:25 AM
No, In_Tulsa said he was high.

But I feel Nonna's in Bricktown to be very superior, as well as Citywalk, Maker's, Rane and LIT. And, Midtown is preparing to make a huge comeback, once the expansion of St. Anthony's Medical Campus us complete, along with the planned Town Square north of Bricktown.

With what is planned north of Bricktown, along the Oklahoma River, and south of Bricktown after I-40 is relocated, I'd say downtown OKC and the Riverwalk in Jenks and south Tulsa will be in competition. Much of Lower Bricktown's expansion is being stalled until I-40 is moved.

On a note, Norman is much closer to OKC than Bartlesville is to Tulsa. I could include Guthrie, but I will not. Too far away from the urban core, and I don't really care for Guthrie.

I know you weren't talking about the Myriad Gardens. But the hookers moved away from the Capitol complex. Word has it they all hang out around the southwest side of the city now. I was merely giving an example of a good natural setting downtown.

It doesn'y really matter that OKC annexed all that land. Edmond is still about the same distance from downtown as Jenks from Tulsa's downtown. Although, it is cool that Jenks and downtown Tulsa are linked by a river and not a freeway.

Not many people visit the Oklahoma River yet. It's new, and for now nothing to do, but that will be changing very soon. Oklahoma River does have one advantage... seven miles of navigable river and two dams equipped with locks. The Arkansas should really build dams with locks, or else the river is all but sectioned off.

I am just disappointed that all of this didn't happen next to downtown, instead of eight miles down the river, as you are disappointed with Lower Bricktown.

But I see your point about the list. Keep in mind, it is (was) more costly to build taller buildings downtown here in OKC, because the soil beneath downtown is very porous and sandy (it was part of the North Canadian River floodplain). Leadership Square was supposed to be a sixty-floor glass tower, but was cut in two for that reason. It still is Oklahoma City's largest office building.

In_Tulsa
11-29-2005, 11:37 AM
I have never heard of this festival I think you have three to many zeros for the attendance nice try. It's like 700 tops. :bright_id

BDP
11-29-2005, 11:47 AM
I have never heard of this festival

I don't doubt it. It doesn't seem like anything permeates the little bubble you live in.

If you have a phone, I could probably give you a telephone number to verify it.

In_Tulsa
11-29-2005, 12:28 PM
What is this phone thing that you speak of?

BDP
11-29-2005, 12:29 PM
405.270.4848

But I don't know why you're so sensitive about it. Mayfair is a good festival, too.

okcpulse
11-29-2005, 12:33 PM
There is NO WAY IN HADES that the festival of the arts gets 700,000....MAYBE 20,000-30,000.

I take it you've never been? It does draw 700,000. Not a guess... an indesputable fact.

Karried
11-29-2005, 12:36 PM
Festival of the Arts
The 2006 Festival of the Arts April 25-30 / Downtown Oklahoma City
Since 1967, the Festival of the Arts has been Oklahoma Cityís favorite ďrite of springĒ. The Festival is a community celebration of the visual, performing and culinary arts.

Annually, the Festival draws an audience of nearly 750,0000
The Festival requires the support of nearly 6,000 volunteers
Over 500 fine artists from across the nation apply to be one of the 144 artists selected for the show
Festival artists are selected by a professional arts jury
Artists mediums include:
2-Dimensional: water; oil; drawings/graphics/paper/printmaking; photography; and, 2-D miscellaneous
3-Dimensional: sculpture, jewelry, clay, wood, fiber, glass, leather and 3-D miscellaneous
Festival juries art for the Windscapes kinetic art exhibit, Sculpture Park and Environs Furniture Art Exhibit
Over 21 food vendors bring their specialties to the International Food Row. Each food vendor partners with a local arts agency
Childrenís Art Field features fun hands-on art activities. Facepainting and Young at Art Mart also cater to youth
Four stages offer continuous performances from professional bands, arts organizations and school groups
Admission to the Festival is free
Please, no pets
To find out more about the Festival of the Arts, please call: 405.270.4848http://www.okctalk.com/ihost/images/Karried/arts.jpg

okcpulse
11-29-2005, 12:36 PM
I have never heard of this festival I think you have three to many zeros for the attendance nice try. It's like 700 tops

That shows how much you know about our city. Come down in April for a visit to Festival of the Arts. It's one of the top arts festivals in the country. And... sorry, that's not a bogus claim.

swake
11-29-2005, 12:40 PM
Tulsa is going to be building more dams, but a true navigable Arkansas River isn't going to happen. The McClellen-Kerr Navigation System, as you may know, does make Tulsa the nation's most inland seaport, but the Arkansas River in Tulsa was going to be too expensive so the Verdigris River is Tulsa's navigable river for real water based commerce.

The city, county and Corp of Engineers is hoping to have a Dam at about 111th St (Tulsa on east bank, Jenks on the west) and another in Sand Springs done in two to three years. Later another dam is planned around I-44 in Tulsa. Matching funds are in place waiting for federal money on the first two dams. Well, second and third, there is the existing dam at 31st in Tulsa.

The Arkansas is nearly a mile wide in places, I have no idea what a lock and dam system would cost but it would have to out of sight, but, that means that each dam is going to have a very large area that is navigable by small craft, maybe as large as 3/4 mile wide and 3-4 miles long each. You won't ever be able to take a water taxi from Bell's at 111th to Sand Springs, but that would take forever anyway.

metro
11-29-2005, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE] I am in no way saying downtown Tulsa is thriving, but neither is OKCs. Itís, in fact, outside of Bricktown, in worse shape than Tulsaís and does not have a thriving midtown area next door like downtown Tulsa does. Midtown development is on the doorstep of downtown Tulsa now with $500,000 infill condos at 21st and Riverside in the Uptown area just to the south of downtown and $300,000 urban townhouses in the newly named Pearl District just to the east of downtown.


I'm curious, honestly when is the last time you have been to downtown OKC if ever?? We have a thriving CBD, as well as an Arts District, Automobile Alley, Deep Deuce, Flat Iron, Triangle (slowly), MidTown, Paseo, Plaza District, Western Avenue, Adventure District, Capitol Complex, Trolley Track District, Asian District, and a Hispanic District (Capitol Hill District) just across the river, as well as Stockyards City district which is also revived just 3 miles down the highway.

As far as MidTown, it is under a complete overhaul. St. Anthony's in the heart of MidTown is going under a $220 million dollar renovation alone. Recently opened was Cafe Do Brasil a Brazilian or (Brasilian if you are from Brasil) in MidTown along with the historic Grateful Bean Cafe in the historic Kaisers building. Plaza Court building is almost done with renovations. An architecture firm just moved into the renovated across the street. Lofts just 2 blocks east are under renovation. Round-abouts were installed. Heritage Hills is thriving and real estate prices are at a premium. Renovations and condo sales are underway on The Classen in Midtown, a 21 story urban luxury condo development (www.theclassen.com) and move-ins will be starting in January or February. These are just a few of several things going on in MidTown, many of which are ALREADY open or near completion. The key is most of your arguments are planned or are waiting on funding. Sounds like Gray's project with the Indian statue which is why OKC dumped the idea. You asked what there is to do so we provided you with samples.


Oh and the National Memorial boasts over 1 million visitors a year not to mention hosts one of the top 12 marathons in the World (according to Runner's World magazine but what do they know right?) .

(http://www.okcmarathon.com/news.asp?id=10&newsid=1)

For someone who spends a lot of time on this site trash talking maybe you should research all the good things going on in the capital city. Why are you so envious or spiteful of OKC anyways, we are all in this together, after all this is the State of Oklahoma, if your upset about Tulsa or OKC, elect new leaders there who will provide you with what OKC "doesn't have". Maybe you should learn that its not a competition but about cooperation. The better BOTH cities do economically and quality of life the better we will progress together as a state.

BDP
11-29-2005, 02:54 PM
Yeah, many of the Tulsa based criticism or perspectives of OKC are pretty dated. Things do change and they have been for some time, with more on the way. Most notably, there is about to be a housing and hotel boom downtown in the next 2 years.

swake
11-29-2005, 03:23 PM
I have been to downtown OKC, and outside of Bricktown, itís still pretty sad. Too many empty or nearly so buildings, too many surface lots, too little retail and housing. Iíve been to downtown OKC and know that some of those ďdistrictsĒ consist of like four total occupied buildings. I think it was The Deep Deuce area that was dominated by a closed up parking garage. Now, that is unique, I have never seen a parking garage closed permanently for lack of business in a downtown. Downtown OKC is pretty small for a city your size. I know that is a feature of having so much city employment being devoted to the capital and the capital is not downtown, but it still is a fact.

There is work going on and you may well be improving, but there is no such thing as a booming, thriving downtown with a 30% vacancy rate and no new major buildings in 20 years. That is a fraud. Go, get out of town, visit some other cities, there are thriving downtowns in this nation, neither of ours qualify.

I have lived in Oklahoma City, twice as a matter of fact. You are the one with the dumb list of what Tulsa didnít have, so this is your game. Maybe work is being done in midtown there. It does not change the fact that today most of midtown OKC is ugly and shabby and much of it is dangerous.

My arguments are mostly only planned projects? What? Midtown Tulsa has few ongoing projects due to a lack of places to do them. Tulsa has no need in the vast majority of midtown for a "rebirth". Many of the issues on the Tulsa city council today have to do with ugly zoning battles in midtown Tulsa, two really ugly fights over upscale multi-story banks. People angry over 3-4 story bank buildings being built. That is not an issue you have in most of midtown becuase anything there would be an improvement. And, for the record, Tulsa has lots of high-rise units in midtown, always has had, most are VERY expensive.

Here are the larger of Tulsaís midtown residential high-rises, all obviously completed. There are several more residental high-rises in midtown and even downtown Tulsa. Riverside near downtown is packed with condos and apartments.


http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=188180

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=255524

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=128641

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=254185

here is St John's newly COMPLETED addition, not planned, completed. This is right across the street from Utica Square. Nearby Hillcrest is also working on a major expansion, I just don't have any photos. Both have been working on expansions for several years now.

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=254177

And we do have plenty of projects underway and being built now, not just planned:

http://www.uticaplace.com/ -This has just started construction

http://www.thevillagebuilders.com/ - About half the units are done and sold

http://www.couryprop.com/otherProp_tudorCottages.htm - This project is in phase two

There are more, these are the large ones. there are a couple of really nice smaller projects going on in Brookside and Cherry Street.

Downtown there are a couple of projects ongoing now, and keep in mind that downtown has 1500 housing units NOW, already, not planned. The best current project is the Philtower Lofts, all the completed and most of the not completed units are gone. There are at least two other smaller projects under construction downtown. How many completed units are there in OKC? How many of your projects have acutally turned a shovel of dirt?

http://www.philtower.com/

Now, my question to you, have you really ever been to Tulsa, or really any other city for that matter?

thecains
11-29-2005, 03:31 PM
If that festival got 750,000 people that would mean every man, woman and child in OKC plus 200,000 would have to attend (and clearly that dosent happen).....Festivals always up the attendance records so the event is more appealing to sponsors. In that photo Karried posted it looks more like 3,000.

BDP
11-29-2005, 04:44 PM
Cains, it lasts several days. It's not 750,000 AT ONCE. That'd be the entire city of San Francisco in one square block. :LolLolLol

And that pic is of a very small part of it.

brianinok
11-29-2005, 05:21 PM
The title of this thread is "Tulsans simply don't get it." After reading 5 pages of this stuff, I concur.

OKC's arts festival draws 750,000 over 2 weeks time period, and is one of the top in the nation.

And anyone who says OKC's downtown is not vibrant is stupid and/or lives in Tulsa. Check out the newspapers of every city with an NBA team to visit here so far. Every single one of them comment on how alive and well downtown OKC is. Downtown OKC was written up in NYT, WP, USA Today, Dallas Morning News, etc. even before the Hornets. Is the Seattle Times exclaiming now happening Tulsa's downtown (or any other district) is? NO! The whole nation realizes it, why can't Tulsans?

All that being said, I ROOT FOR Tulsa. I want them to be successful. It can only help us as a state. I have often said that if OKC and Tulsa were as close as DFW is to each other, it would be the best metro area in the country!

swake
11-29-2005, 06:32 PM
The arts festival is a good event, no doubt. It's a somewhat larger version of Tulsa's Mayfest. An example of "upping" attendance figures would be Mayfest, they used to include all 40,000 people that work downtown in the numbers, THREE TIMES, once for Wednesday, Thursday and then Friday. So they had a starting figure of 120,000 people, so Mayfest claimed 400,000 to 500,000 people. Now they claim a somewhat more reasonable 250,000 but all these non ticketed arts fairs and such, and there are a ton of them nationally, have no way to tell how many people attend them.

Unless you sell tickets, you are just guessing. Okoberfest in Tulsa is a great example, they used to claim as many as 300,000 people attended each year, last year they started requiring tickets, not expensive ones, just like two or three dollars. The crowds aren't any smaller since, but attendance is now put at about 100,000, and that would be the real number, and probably always was.

Now the Tulsa State Fair had just a shade under 1 million tickets sold. I do think that is still the largest single event in the state.

And if you think Bricktown is the same as the whole of downtown OKC, then you are kidding yourself, it is one section, not a major section and it's off to the side of downtown. The CBD is more what I was talking about. It's really no different than Tulsa's CBD, really it's in worse shape.

And even there in Bricktown there are plenty of empty or underused buildings. Most buildings in the area have the ground floor retail fronts mostly full with bars and resturants, but the bulk of the often five or six floor buildings are still empty. Is it thriving? I think that's debatable, it's a popular tourist and nightlife area, but almost no one lives there and there is very little retail or office space. It is not what many cities are striving for in districts like that to consider them a success, it is in no way Multi-Use. you have a very successful and popular district in Bricktown, I would say it's thriving for what it is, but it could be a lot more. I know OKC is working on the residental part, but a lot more needs to be done, and get rid of the chains and get more unique eateries. Then you really would have something. Oh, and level the outer part of Bricktown, it's just worthless, no better, well, not a lot better than 71st in Tulsa.

I want OKC to do well, it's great you have the Hornets, I think you are going to get to keep them, keep the attendance numbers up next year at full ticket prices and you will. There are many good areas of OKC, for instance, the Lake Hefner area is very nice and seems to be better every time I'm there. I think the single most exciting project in the whole state is the Skirvin. I hope Tulsa can/will copy it with the Mayo. I have complimented your new museums and have even said that Tulsa needs something like the MOA.

Why do people in OKC have to act like there is nothing at all in Tulsa? Why does the state keep funding projects in OKC without complimentary projects in Tulsa? We too pay state taxes. The trend here seems to be to make much more of OKC than is really there, and much less of Tulsa.

BDP
11-29-2005, 11:03 PM
Why do people in OKC have to act like there is nothing at all in Tulsa?

I'm not sure that anyone is really saying that. I think most seem to repeatedly express their appreciation of Tulsa and what it offers. But maybe if I was on the other side, I wouldn't see it like that. I don't know, but I certainly read a lot of posts from people that explicitly say they like Tulsa and I doubt that's because they think there's nothing there at all.


Why does the state keep funding projects in OKC without complimentary projects in Tulsa?

I'm not sure. You'd probably have to break that one down specifically. I do know that just because one city fills a need with tax payer money doesn't mean that the other city should get the same amount of money just to be "fair". I think that would create a lot of waste. Maybe the Tulsa representatives are not as effective in expressing Tulsa's needs. Are there any specific projects that you see as especially unfair?

In the end, one could say that the larger tax base justifies it, but, personally, I think it should be based on needs and return on investment.


The trend here seems to be to make much more of OKC than is really there, and much less of Tulsa.

Again, I don't think anyone makes less of Tulsa than it is really. It's a nice place and most seem to acknowledge that. Maybe some downplay what it does have, but thatís pretty much been your mission in terms of OKC, so you probably understand that better than me.

As for OKC, I think you have a point. I think a lot of that stems from the tendency to talk about what is coming. OKC does have a lot of momentum and a lot of projects in the pipeline, both private and public. As these projects are not finished, yet, a lot of the discussion is, by nature, talking about things that are not here yet.

okcpulse
11-30-2005, 12:02 AM
Now the Tulsa State Fair had just a shade under 1 million tickets sold. I do think that is still the largest single event in the state.

The Oklahoma State Fair sold 1.1 million tickets last year, and is a 10 day event. It used to be 17 days and drew 1.7 million a year. I think the Tulsa and Oklahoma State Fairs are pretty much the same in terms of attendance.

But I hate fairs. They are a has been for me. After all, who wants to ride portable rides inspected by underpaid employees and getting ripped off by vendors at the midway? The fair, any fair, is crap.

But remember swake, downtown OKC is now what it wasn't then. It is well-maintained now, and with specialized districts, (Bricktown; Arts District; Central Business District; Automobile Alley; Flat Iron District; and Deep Deuce), downtown has an identity. Each district now has a mission, and so does Midtown and the Capitol District.

The parking garage you mentioned does not belong in Deep Deuce. What you saw was in the Flat Iron District, and is actually being renovated for a reopening. The Flat Iron district is the centerpiece for the new Town Square project, a combination of residential and retail. Correct, vacancy rates are high, and I exlpained that, but they are also falling steadily, and parking downtown is becoming a problem.

In fact, the Galleria Parking Garage is nearing completion on two five-story garages. The new Downtown Library and new Metro Transit Transfer Station and the renovated Civic Center Music Hall ahve enhanced downtown. The Colcord, Oklahoma City's first skyscraper built in 1910 (at 11 floors), is being renovated into a boutique hotel. The Montgomery in the Arts District is a recently completed project that features luxury corporate apartments, and are a success. Of course, you know about the Skirvin Project. I remember reading on Tulsa Now that the Skirvin project would never happen, and that the Tulsa Mayo would be fully open before the Skirvin was ever started. Automobile Alley is filling up with businesses. All of this is happening in downtown, not Bricktown.

So maybe it's better to say, all of the assets are in place for a thriving downtown, and even though we are not there yet, we are heading down the right road.

We both know Tulsa and OKC have different histories with our inner cities. Although, north Tulsa is horrible, as is south-central OKC. But that is every city.

jbrown84
11-30-2005, 12:03 AM
If that festival got 750,000 people that would mean every man, woman and child in OKC plus 200,000 would have to attend (and clearly that dosent happen).....Festivals always up the attendance records so the event is more appealing to sponsors. In that photo Karried posted it looks more like 3,000.

OKC metro = 1,200,000 people. Between OKC and the rest of the state it's not that hard to get 750,000 downtown over several days. The festival covers the entire Myriad Gardens and the whole block to the west of it (Festival Plaza) as well as the entire length of Robinson between them. I did a news package on the festival last year and I interviewed several out of state artists and they all said it is the best festival they've been to and they sell more art in OKC than anywhere else. Oh, I guess we aren't a bunch of hick cowboys down here.


Swake, no one's talking down Tulsa. Or maybe one guy is out of all of us. We want Tulsa to thrive, but it doesn't help our state when you guys just try to copy everything we do. We need unique things. OKC has a modern art museum. Let us have modern art, and stop trying to compete so directly with us. We are getting the Native American Cultural Center on the river, and it's going to be incredible. Why build your own. That only serves to make our state and our cities less unique. It's like Clinton and Elk City with their competing Route 66 museums. I think we're above that.

okcpulse
11-30-2005, 12:19 AM
On that note in Festival of the Arts attendance, a lot are not from Oklahoma. Every year I attend the festival, I see countless license plates in parking garages from Texas, Kansas, Missouri, and some from Illinois, California and Colorado. I always see at least a couple of plates from Maine and Massachusetts. Don't know if they were there for the festival, but they were there nonetheless. And I don't think ot was for the Memorial. Any Oklahoma Citian knows they all park by the Memorial. The plates I mentioned were in the Santa Fe Parking Garage and in Bricktown.

jbrown84
11-30-2005, 12:20 AM
okcpulse covered it pretty well, but you seem to be making a lot of surface assumptions about downtown OKC. You can't just drive around and know what is going on. Many of the Bricktown warehouses do have lofts and offices in their upper floors. How could you know without going inside them. The other areas around the CBD are all improving. Automobile Alley has several loft apartment buildings, two modern art galleries, several banks, and will soon have the new OKC Foundation Headquarters. Virtually all of Deep Deuce (already containing hundreds of apartments) and the Flatiron District is being filled with housing and mixed use projects (The Hill at Deep Deuce, The Triangle District (http://www.thetriangleokc.com/), Block 42), which will bridge the gap with OU Medical Center and the Biotech district. Midtown is seeing new restaurants and new landscaping and will most likely have new housing with Legacy Summit at Arts Central. Just north of the newly renovated Plaza Court building the old Mid-Continental Life building on the edge of Heritage Hills is being renovated for a new museum. And right in the business district we are about to renovate our underground tunnel system, and it will include a grand entrance probably at the Chase Building. 125 Park is complete with for-sale condo offices on four floors and a restaurant space in the basement with street access. The Federal Reserve building is being considered for the new home of the International Photography Hall of Fame and Museum. We have six buildings that are being converted to housing for different price ranges. And our Santa Fe Amtrak depot is being outfitted to have shops in its old freight docks, and no, that's not in Bricktown.

Some of these may have already been mentioned, but a lot haven't and I think you have to look beyond the outward picture. Even just looking at the outward picture downtown OKC's streets are lined with trees, fountains and statues.

davido
11-30-2005, 02:01 PM
Oklahoma city and tulsa are just like OU and ok state, how many times can you win a championship and still not get credit from the other guy. I have been all over this state, and there will always be a rivalry between okc and tulsa and ou osu. tulsa is a pretty, wooded city, and okc is flat and has different things than tulsa, they are both good cities.

swake
11-30-2005, 03:09 PM
Of course, you know about the Skirvin Project. I remember reading on Tulsa Now that the Skirvin project would never happen, and that the Tulsa Mayo would be fully open before the Skirvin was ever started.

That feeling was due to at least two failures to reopen that Mayo that died after construction started. I do think the Skirvin will happen, but understand, the Mayo today is far more restored than the Skirvin is. That's why the Mayo is gutted, stable, and now redone on the first two floors only. I hope that doesn't happen to the Skirvin, but it might, it did to the Mayo, again, more than once.


Every year I attend the festival, I see countless license plates in parking garages from Texas, Kansas, Missouri, and some from Illinois, California and Colorado. I always see at least a couple of plates from Maine and Massachusetts. Don't know if they were there for the festival,

Most likely they were there for the festival, as artist and vendors. Those people travel city to city hitting a lot of arts shows and fairs. That's what they do. That's not knocking your festival, but few people are going to travel very far for something like that, most cities have at least one version of it.


Swake, no one's talking down Tulsa. Or maybe one guy is out of all of us. We want Tulsa to thrive, but it doesn't help our state when you guys just try to copy everything we do. We need unique things. OKC has a modern art museum. Let us have modern art, and stop trying to compete so directly with us. We are getting the Native American Cultural Center on the river, and it's going to be incredible. Why build your own. That only serves to make our state and our cities less unique. It's like Clinton and Elk City with their competing Route 66 museums. I think we're above that.

I donít think Tulsa is copying OKC at all.

First off, every city needs a modern art museum, and the art should be as local as possible as often as possible. It is the art of "today", so I don't think that is a copy, that is just part of a good local arts community.

And does Tulsa need a Native American center? Even if OKC has one? Certainly. Tulsa has the highest per-capita population of Native Americans of any city, and is second to only Los Angeles in pure numbers. And Tulsaís number is even likely badly unreported on the census, you only have to look at license plates around town to know that. I have heard that some claim that something maybe as many as 15%, or more, of the people in metro Tulsa are enrolled in a tribe. The Tulsa metro is home to the largest and third largest tribes in the nation. Tulsa Public schools has children from something like 50 different tribes. Tulsa was founded by Native Americans, how many large cities can really say that? Tulsa really probably is the single most important center in Native Culture nationally, because of the size and variety of the Native American community in Tulsa. But most people even in Tulsa donít know that unless they participate in the community here. If for no other reason, one is needed here because of that. Why do you think the National Congress of Indians was held here last month for instance?

Anyway, the center in Tulsa is planning to have a stomp grounds, pow-wow grounds, native foods restaurants, community center, and a museum. Not as purely a museum as what OKC seems to be building, so Iím not sure itís really the same thing anyway.

In any case, Tulsa already has very good native museum collections. Both of Tulsaís major museums already have very impressive Native American museum collections not to mention the tribal capitals in the area all also have tribal specific museums. Hell, the Cherokee Casino is filled with really nice Cherokee artwork, itís nearly a museum all on itís own. Thomas Gilcrease was a Creek Indian! You know, the man that donated the estate and bulk of the art that today is Gilcrease Museum.

Tulsa having such a center is not a copy.

I donít think Tulsa is copying OKC on the river, Tulsa has been developing the river for more than 30 years, we are just in a new phase of development. An arena? Well, Tulsaís old arena is far worse that the old Myriad, and a lot smaller, it was needed, and what we are building is nothing like what you built. Downtown housing? Tulsa has been promoting downtown housing for at least 30 years, thatís why we do have 1500 units downtown, itís just they are concentrated mostly in one area. Copying Bricktown? Well, Tulsaís closest area like Bricktown would have to be Brookside, and Brookside has been a nightlife district here since it was known as the restless ribbon in the 50s.

What exactly are we imitating?

metro
11-30-2005, 04:00 PM
Anyway, the center in Tulsa is planning to have a stomp grounds, pow-wow grounds, native foods restaurants, community center, and a museum. Not as purely a museum as what OKC seems to be building, so Iím not sure itís really the same thing anyway.


Actually ours will have all this and a lot more, it should be a good contrast yet compliment to the one in Tulsa. It will even be affilliated with the Smithsonian.


A master plan and conceptual design has been completed by an exceptional team of architects, designers, and museum and exhibit specialists. The plan includes many aspects reflecting American Indian culture and traditions, such as water, wind, fire and earth; sun cycles, and gathering places for social and sports events.

Phases I and II are now complete. Phase I involved the overall feasibility study and site selection. Phase II involved the Program Brief with Building Concepts and Master Plan. Phase III, currently underway, includes content and story line development and exhibit planning by Ralph Appelbaum Associates of New York, widely known for their exhibitory work for the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. Phase III also includes landscape planning and design by Hargreaves Associates of San Francisco, CA.

Visitors to the Cultural Center will enter from the east, through the ďCourt of the Wind,Ē a circular plaza surrounded by 39 tree-like pipes that resonate the sound of the wind. From there, visitors will approach the main entrance to the Museum, where they will view the Fire Circle of the Court of Nations through the glass walls in the Hall of the People. In this area, visitors can choose to proceed into several galleries or theaters to experience projected images, sound and light effects. There will also be an introduction to orient visitors to the cultural history and significance of Oklahoma American Indian tribes. Themes throughout the Center will be Identity, Memory, Community, Ethos, Continuity, and Ethos.

Other options for visitors will be the Family Center, featuring hands-on activities such as storytelling, quilting and beadwork crafts; and the Study Center where visitors can learn more about the exhibits and activities offered throughout the Museum.

The outdoor design plan for the Cultural Center includes woodland, plain and wetlands settings, as well as a lake extending the entire length of the site. Landscaping will include trees and plants native to the area. Lakeside facilities, including a 200-room lodge hotel, tribal meeting and conference center, and a 125-room motor hotel, will provide meeting space for a variety of organizations.

An arts and crafts marketplace, studios and galleries, providing a venue for American Indian art, will be located near the hotels. Restaurants will also be located in this area.

A large dance ground is planned for social gatherings, including a 300-space RV and tent campground with areas for food preparation. There will also be a sports field for tournaments, inter-tribal games and casual recreation.

The American Indian Cultural Center and Museum will provide an opportunity to educate, celebrate and preserve the history, culture and achievements of American Indians.


For more info you may want to visit http://mynacea.com

roboticbrad
11-30-2005, 04:28 PM
Actually ours will have all this and a lot more, it should be a good contrast yet compliment to the one in Tulsa. It will even be affilliated with the Smithsonian.



For more info you may want to visit mynacea

the link didnt work

HOT ROD
11-30-2005, 05:15 PM
Why does the state keep funding projects in OKC without complimentary projects in Tulsa? We too pay state taxes..

Because OKC is the capital and largest city. ... The same reason why Denver, Boston, Atlanta, Richmond, Phoenix ... need I go on? Have more state buildings and investments. And the mentioned cities (and OKC) also happen to be the respective state's largest.

Its' not a poke at Tulsa or any state's second or third city. Here is a great example. Out here in Washington state, Seattle is by far the biggest and most progressive city - nearly world class with huge national prominence (everyone knows that). But Seattle has almost NO state buildings or investment. Why???

Because the capital is in Olympia (which has most of the state buildings). Seattle was not the capital, nor was Tacoma, or Spokane ... so the three have less than Olympia does, state wise. Sure, they contribute FAR MORE in income to the state than Olympia's 120,000 residents - but Olympia is the capital..

So, the cities had to find something else to prosper and surely Tulsa did the same thing. Isnt that why Tulsa has more industrial presence than does OKC? Ditto that for Wichita KS, most state institutions are 120 miles NE.

I dont think this is anything to cry about, I mean, OKC is the state capital. It is also the largest city, so it only makes sense for most of the buildings and investment to be based in OKC.


The trend here seems to be to make much more of OKC than is really there, and much less of Tulsa.

Not really. As an "outsider" I actually see OKCers comment very favourably for Tulsa, even during a defensive post. I think Tulsan's seem to want OKC to rant and rave over T-town and neglect their own; isnt that what had been happening pre MAPS?

Well, it's a new day and a new OKC.

One thing I will agree with you is that I dont think OKC needed to annex 600 sq miles. The original argument was for water shed protection. Hopefully with the creation of Central Oklahoma Association of Governments they can manage the watershed (like we have out here, King County METRO) and we can put the whole "density" issue to rest.



Why do people in OKC have to act like there is nothing at all in Tulsa?

I disagree here. People in OKC are just taking pride in OKC. I mean, it is OKCTalk. Sure, there are some who take a poke or two at Tulsa but I think it is more of a fun stab rather than the continual put down that Tulsa liked to give OKC back in the day (or that many continue to do on TulsaNow).

so...

why cant we all get along? I know every state has rivalries and in-state there are also. But it seems that OKC and Tulsa should pool together and change the world's opinion about Oklahoma. I see OKC taking the initiative, what I've seen from Tulsa is only in Tulsa's best interest or only about Tulsa.

SWAKE, I can say that you have been one of the most objective (and more civilized) True Tulsans in your criticisms of OKC. I have taken most of yours to be rather constructive and that you actually might like to see OKC progress. I wish there were others like you in your fine city over there.

Well, at least it isnt Kansas (or Arkansas, even worse).

Cheer (and team) up Oklahoma!!!

swake
11-30-2005, 06:30 PM
Actually ours will have all this and a lot more, it should be a good contrast yet compliment to the one in Tulsa. It will even be affilliated with the Smithsonian.



For more info you may want to visit http://mynacea.com

No, I agree, what you are planning is impressive, much more so than what is planned here, the link to the smithsonian is key as well, the plan for Tulsa's center is not even close to what you are planning in size and is much further from being done.

metro
12-01-2005, 09:05 AM
Here try this link. The other link worked for me but not sure what happened.

http://nacea.com/

soonerguru
12-01-2005, 10:33 AM
No offense to the Tulsans here, but why is Tulsa building a "me too" Indian museum? That seems very bizarre. I thought Tulsans were the "trailblazers" for our fair state. Could they not conceive of a different project?

swake
12-01-2005, 12:16 PM
No offense to the Tulsans here, but why is Tulsa building a "me too" Indian museum? That seems very bizarre. I thought Tulsans were the "trailblazers" for our fair state. Could they not conceive of a different project?


You could start by reading my entire post on that exact subject..........The one six posts above this one in this very thread, but that might take effort, so here it is


And does Tulsa need a Native American center? Even if OKC has one? Certainly. Tulsa has the highest per-capita population of Native Americans of any city, and is second to only Los Angeles in pure numbers. And Tulsaís number is even likely badly unreported on the census, you only have to look at license plates around town to know that. I have heard that some claim that something maybe as many as 15%, or more, of the people in metro Tulsa are enrolled in a tribe. The Tulsa metro is home to the largest and third largest tribes in the nation. Tulsa Public schools has children from something like 50 different tribes. Tulsa was founded by Native Americans, how many large cities can really say that? Tulsa really probably is the single most important center in Native Culture nationally, because of the size and variety of the Native American community in Tulsa. But most people even in Tulsa donít know that unless they participate in the community here. If for no other reason, one is needed here because of that. Why do you think the National Congress of Indians was held here last month for instance?

brianinok
12-01-2005, 04:36 PM
And does Tulsa need a Native American center? Even if OKC has one? Certainly. Tulsa has the highest per-capita population of Native Americans of any city, and is second to only Los Angeles in pure numbers.Using this logic, Texas should build a National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum. Maybe California and Arizona should, too. And maybe 2 new College Football HOFs should be located in Norman, OK and Tuscaloosa, AL, considering schools in those cities have so many national titles. And while we're at it, lets go ahead and build a Route 66 museum in every town in OK along old Route 66. That's show Clinton.

And while we're at it, we need to get over to the NYC boards and tell them they should be jealous that DC has all the government buildings. After all, who care that they are the national capital-- NYC is best city in the country!

Curt
12-01-2005, 09:28 PM
NYC is best city in the country!
Your kidding...right? I really hope your kidding. I have never been to NYC...but from the people I have known that have been there and listening to what they had to say about it there is no way in hell I would ever want to go there.

TStheThird
12-01-2005, 11:08 PM
Well, that puts you in the world's minority, but that is the great thing about the world... everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

soonerguru
12-01-2005, 11:29 PM
I have never been to NYC

That much is obvious from your, pardon the expression, ignorant commentary. Yes, NYC really is the best city, and it's not even close.

Of course, there are many, many GREAT cities that have a lot of different things to offer.

But if you ever get the chance to actually visit NYC and experience it for yourself, take it. It's on a level you cannot understand from watching Seinfeld or NYPD Blue or hearing your friends Kvetch about it.

BDP
12-02-2005, 09:40 AM
NYC rocks. I love that city. My first love will always be San Francisco. It's prettier, imo. But I sure wouldn't turn down any opportunity to go to NYC. What's not to like? That is, unless you don't like people, which I guess there are a lot of people who don't like people.

PS: I wonder will this thread will be next week... the suspense is killing me.

Oil Capital
12-02-2005, 11:06 AM
I have lived in Tulsa for 9 + years now and if I had to describe it with one word that word would be:

Delusional

(and no I am neither a native nor partisan of OKC, I am not even from Oklahoma)

TStheThird
12-02-2005, 01:02 PM
This is most certainly an exciting and entertaining thread!

jdsplaypin
12-02-2005, 06:50 PM
Mariner, just because your friend "John Doe" didn't get along with the big bad city doesn't mean it isn't the greatest city in the country. Besides LA (urban sprawl at its finest) there are no other GLOBAL CITIES besides NYC. Perhaps you had Detroit in mind... hehe. Come on where else on earth can you find another 5th Avenue besides the one exception in Dubai. And no, Las Vegas doesn't compare. Where else can you find the exquisite architecture. And no, the super sonic space needle in Seattle isnt what i had in mind. How about Grand Central, The subway system, Times square, Midtown, the Financial District, Little Italy (yes i've been to other Italian districts) The museums, BROADWAY, the Diamond District, the Garment District, the restaurants. Do you think the United Nations mistakenly made NYC their home? They could've easily located on the other side of the Atlantic & been closer to more countries involved in the UN. The major corporations located here b/c of the appeal and cosmopolitan diversity of the metropolis.

flyingcowz
12-03-2005, 08:36 AM
Suprised that I have not said anything?
Good, you should be.

Anyways, i'm not going to jump in and start an argument, because i'm better than that, and you all know what i'd have to say anyways.

I'd just like to say, though, that I liked Chicago and San Fransisco a lot more than NYC.

I'm out, so you can get back to your bashing.

Karried
12-03-2005, 09:02 AM
Suprised that I have not said anything?
Good, you should be.

To be honest, I don't think anyone thought about it in the least.

BDP
12-03-2005, 09:31 AM
Suprised that I have not said anything?

Who are you?

Karried
12-03-2005, 09:57 AM
Good, you should be

Do we know you? :lol2:

OKCMann
12-03-2005, 01:12 PM
This is a very negative forum. Few forums would allow for these cross-city bash fests to allow, and then to throw in some more. NYC sucks. Tulsa sucks.

The mentallity here sucks. Turn that frown upside down!

Karried
12-03-2005, 04:21 PM
I found this on the Tulsa forum. As long as Tulsans continue to think this way, we're going to continue to fall behind as a state. Until we all work together will we finally further the state along. By the way, it was because of us, the citizens of Oklahoma City, that we became the city we have become today....it was because of MAPS.


"It's okay. When OKC claims how great it is, we can point and laugh because we've been able to support ourselves quite well on our own.

Oh, by the way, I hate OKC.

---Robert"




Few forums would allow for these cross-city bash fests to allow, and then to throw in some more.

OKCMann, this topic was started because of a post on another Tulsa forum bashing OKC. If you think other forums don't allow opinions discussing cities (in a negative manner), you are sadly mistaken. There are thousands of talk forums across the country that spend countless hours discussing the merits and shortfalls of various places - in fact, many people have differences of opinion.

As long as we remain civil, I think it is important to be able to discuss anything we so choose.

We like to provide a place for open discussion and opinions.

HOT ROD
12-03-2005, 04:22 PM
Mariner, just because your friend "John Doe" didn't get along with the big bad city doesn't mean it isn't the greatest city in the country. Besides LA (urban sprawl at its finest) there are no other GLOBAL CITIES besides NYC.

And Chicago. for sure!!

Serious argument for San Fran as well.

Curt
12-03-2005, 04:30 PM
That much is obvious from your, pardon the expression, ignorant commentary. Yes, NYC really is the best city, and it's not even close.

Of course, there are many, many GREAT cities that have a lot of different things to offer.

But if you ever get the chance to actually visit NYC and experience it for yourself, take it. It's on a level you cannot understand from watching Seinfeld or NYPD Blue or hearing your friends Kvetch about it.
Well why arent you living there? or do you?

Patrick
12-03-2005, 09:53 PM
I like Seattle way better than NYC. NYC is filthy, in case you haven't been there lately.

Curt
12-03-2005, 10:24 PM
I like Seattle way better than NYC. NYC is filthy, in case you haven't been there lately.
Now see I would visit Seattle from what I have heard...but why would I visit NYC from the negative I have heard why would I waste my money on that trip. I live in a dirty city why would I want to go visit one.

brannonterry
12-04-2005, 12:45 AM
i like the fight in tulsa members

BDP
12-04-2005, 08:36 AM
NYC is filthy, in case you haven't been there lately.

That sucks. I went there last year and I was impressed with how clean it was.

swake
12-04-2005, 10:41 AM
New York really is the most amazing city in the world. Yes Chicago is cleaner, but New York is the center of the world, and it's obvious when you are there.

It's Dirty? Well, so is Paris. Tulsa is clean, does that mean Tulsa is better than New York and Paris?

Now I don't know that I would want to live there, and I don't want to raise my kids there, at least not in the city. But you can't deny what New York is.

Now let's start arguing some part of NYC vs Bricktown in OKC, that should be fun.

And where did Seattle come from? How can you even mention Seattle and New York in the same sentence? The United States has five world class cities, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Washington-Baltimore and The Bay Area. Compare those five all you want, but Seattle is not even close.

OKCMann
12-04-2005, 12:46 PM
i like the fight in tulsa members

Gotta be vigilant to put up with this crap.

soonerguru
12-04-2005, 04:57 PM
Patrick,

Maybe you were just there on garbage day, I don't know. NYC is one of the cleanest big cities I've ever seen.

At one time, it was rather dirty. It hasn't been that way for more than a decade now, though.

Of course, if you like squeaky clean, I hear Des Moines is wonderful this time of year. :)

flyingcowz
12-04-2005, 05:19 PM
Just keep on bashing...it's amusing. I like how we attract such hatred from you OKCtalkers. One guy says that and your whole board goes crazy, but if I show them on TulsaNow what you guys are saying, they really don't give a crap. Who is the bigger person?

Keith
12-04-2005, 07:08 PM
Just keep on bashing...it's amusing. I like how we attract such hatred from you OKCtalkers. One guy says that and your whole board goes crazy, but if I show them on TulsaNow what you guys are saying, they really don't give a crap. Who is the bigger person?
If they really didn't give a crap, then we would not be hearing from them. They are all just jealous of us and this excellent forum. Hands down...we are the bigger person.:dizzy:

Karried
12-04-2005, 07:15 PM
but if I show them on TulsaNow what you guys are saying, they really don't give a crap. Who is the bigger person?



You don't get my vote for the 'bigger person'

But I definitely vote for 'biggest instigator' ...

Come on? Who has time to cut and paste posts from other boards to start trouble and compare what each other has to say.. sheesh - that's pathetic.

I'll bet most Tulsans distance themselves from this kind of junior high 'fun'.. most Tulsans I know are very decent and really cool people.. that's why they don't care about what you have to say about our board. You, however, like to stir the pot.

HOT ROD
12-04-2005, 07:49 PM
I like Seattle way better than NYC. NYC is filthy, in case you haven't been there lately.

was there last week (NYC), it was GREAT!!!

And very clean (Manhattan).

HOT ROD
12-04-2005, 07:51 PM
The United States has five world class cities, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Washington-Baltimore and The Bay Area. Compare those five all you want, but Seattle is not even close.

I Agree with this Statement!

jdsplaypin
12-04-2005, 10:28 PM
Hot Rod, my earlier quote about NYC & LA as being the only global cities is what my Urban Planning textbooks say. They were published this year. I'm not denying the others mentioned, i was just quoting from a higher source than myself. FlyingCowz, where is this hatred you speak of? When i read these topics, i am rather amused & not offended personally. And if you do pick up on this "hatred" why would you want to be involved. My quess is your goal is to lead the OKCitiers out of the darkness & into the light. Did i nail it.

okcpulse
12-04-2005, 11:57 PM
flyingcowz, there was no Tulsa bashing on my behalf, nor any hatred. I did on this thread what I did on TulsaNow. I shared information that some people may have not had, and emphasized what is in Oklahoma City, no comparisons were made.

Swake doesn't have to like Oklahoma City. I respect that. Hopefully the information I provided him left him walking away just a bit better informed, whether or not he already knew.

There is a difference between hatred and being objective. Being objective warrants communication. Swake never offended me, so there was no hatred on his behalf.

This thread has actually been very helpful for those in both Oklahoma City and Tulsa, and readers are left more educated about both cities, and that has always been Oklahoma's problem. Few of us know much of our own home state, its history and where its headed. The more we teach ourselves about our state and its cities, the easier it will be to take pride, make a difference and contribute to our state.