I had never been to a state casino, so this evening I made a venture out to Lucky Star, just north of El Reno. I must say, I wasn't very impressed. All they really have there are electronic slots. I've been to Vegas and Tunica, and I must say, I was disappointed. but, what should I expect from a state that basically outlaws gambling. I think it's time that we legalize all forms of gambling in this state. I know the Baptists will tell you it brings crime and all, but I think that's a bunch of BS. They said the same thing before Remington Park came in, and it hasn't increased crime any. If anything, it's improved the east side of town.

I'm a Baptist myself, but I don't agree with the Baptists stance on gambling.

I'l be voting for the lottery and for the expansion of gambling in November.

The "it brings in organized crime" does not cut it. Oklahoma has been a haven for organized crime since well before statehood. Pretty Boy Floyd was an Oklahoman, Bonnie and Clyde hung out here, The James Gang and the Dalton Gang all spent (and probably did) time here. Plus, remember Podie Poe? He is just one of several aledged to be racketeers.

Plus, this crap about the empoverashed or adictions. Again, no go. Most people that go to casinos have a lot of cash.

Plus. In Tunica, St. Louis and Kansas City? Where did I count the most out of state cars from?... Oklahoma.

Think about it.

You're right.....they're going out of state anyways....and when they go out of state, our state loses the money on it. Heck, my fiancee just got back from Tunica. That's money that could've been spent here in the state. As a Baptist, it's sad to see that my fellow church-goers are so against gambling. I've talked to many of our leaders at the Baptist Building and they still haven't been able to show where the Bible shows that gambling is immoral. They simply say..."it takes advantage of the poor" and "it brings in crime." Well, if the poor aren't going to gamble they'll just go bet on the Sooners game. I don't see the difference. At least if gambling were legalized it would ge controlled and the state would make money off of it. I'll be voting for the lottery in November.

Just wanted to let you guys know that I called Winstar Casinos (http://www.winstarcasinos.com) which is at exit 1 on I-35 in southern Oklahoma. I asked them about poker and blackjack. They said that they are waiting for the vote in November. If it passes, and they expect it to, Las Vegas style gaming will finally be legal in Oklahoma. Also, Thunderbird Casino East of Norman as well as Winstar has already bought the blackjack tables to be set up the day that law passes.

I went to Vegas a couple times this summer. Had a blast! Just wish I could play some blackjack and poker a little closer to home.

:)

Hey Luke thanks for the info. Actually, my fiancee and I made it down to Thuderbird Wild Wild West Casino awhile back to see what it was like, as they just built a new facility awhile back. I was extremely impressed. They have over 70,000 square feet with over 1200 gaming machines, a full service restaurant, a bingo hall, gift shop, etc. I really thought the theme was cool. It has a complete western theme.....looks kind of like a western town inside and out. It reminded me of Sam's Town! Last weekend they just opened a new addition with even more gaming machines. Like you mention, they've left some free space available for the Vegas style gaming, if it's passed in November. If it isn't passed, they told me they were just going to fill the space with more gaming machines to bring their total up to 2000 machines. But, as you said about Winstar, the Shawnee tribe, owners of Thunderbird, fully expect it will pass. Here's Thunderbird's site: http://www.shawneecasinos.com/?CFID=23205&CFTOKEN=2a89c19793b08c56-56516D54-F1F6-9482-377E65D600921347

I'm glad you brought up Winstar Casino, in Thackerville, OK. It's run by the Chickasaw tribe, and is the largest casino in the state, with over 120,000 square feet. They have 2,000 gaming machines, 3 full service restaurants, a bingo hall, etc. It has a Circus theme, similar to Circus Circus in Vegas! It's larger than a lot of Tunica/Vegas casinos, except without Class 3 gaming! Here's their website: http://www.winstarcasinos.com/?CFID=23205&CFTOKEN=2a89c19793b08c56-56516D54-F1F6-9482-377E65D600921347
My fiancee, her mom, and myself have been wanting to go down there.

My finacee and her mom went to Tunica earlier in the summer.....they stayed at Horseshoe Casino. It had a 900+ room hotel, but the casino was about the size of Thunderbird, except with Class 3 gaming of course.

Oh, by the way, if casinos interest you, be on the look out for the new Cherokee Casino in Tulsa.....it will have over 80,000 square feet of casino space, a couple of restaurants, a 150 room hotel, a full 18 hole golfcourse, etc. It opens September 8th, and will be Oklahoma's first resort casino. It will be just east of downtown Tulsa.

Of course, we never go to casinos to try to make money...more just to have fun! I think with casinos it's all the approach you take when you go there.

And the planned Creek Nation Casino (on the site of the current casino) in Tulsa is supposed to be even larger than the Charokee one, it's going to cost over $100 million and include a hotel, theater, shopping mall, riverwalk (it's on the river on Riverside at 81st, a mile north of the Riverwalk complex in Jenks) and plans to be incorperated into Riverparks with water taxis moving people from the casino to riverparks to the Jenks Riverwalk and Aquarium and a new planned riverfront shopping complex on the Tulsa side of the river at 101st.

Wow swake...I didn't realize this. Any idea when this will be completed?

I don't know about completed, construction is supposed to start in summer '05, I assume so the outcome of the vote can figure into the floorplans.

I have to strongly disagree with the rest of the room here. We're much better off as a state without a lotto or casinos. I don't understand Mr. Anderson's "No go," but it's a proven fact that gambling is an addictive behavior that destroys thousands of families every year. We don't need to attract MORE crime and MORE drugs by having casinos.

Dad, I am with you. I also agree that gambling is addictive and a great way to destroy a family. To me, it is just plain wrong.

A state without casinos???

What state do you live in, denial?

The Creek Casino I referred to is open, has been for years. The $100 million is for an expansion that is planned with or without the vote passing. Most of the expansion is to make the casino a resort that people from out of state would visit. The Cherokee Casino and Resort is open now in Claremore.

True all they have now is slot machines and bingo, but slot machines are the biggest money makers for casinos and the worst odds for the gambler. The vote would allow other games, but, these games are not as in favor of the house as the slots and would bring in more out of state people to the EXISTING casinos and give a percentage of the proceeds to the state.

I live not too far from the Creek Casino in Tulsa and it’s packed, all day and all night. The Osage tribe just opened a big new casino in Sand Springs just west of downtown and are opening an even bigger casino in North Tulsa soon. That will bring the Tulsa metro area to one off track betting center, two horse tracks, seven casinos and who knows how many bingo halls. Gambling is here, the vote will not change that. The question is will the state be able to get some revenue out of it and will the state be able to regulate it.

I don't disagree with the fact that gambling can cause addiction and can ruin some families. But, those families are probably destined to be ruined anyways. I guess that's not the point though.

I do disagree that casinos bring crime and drugs. There's no proof of that anywhere. That's the same excuse the General Baptist Convention of Oklahoma made when the state was considering the approval to build Remington Park. So far I haven't seen any increased crime or drugs out near Remington. If anything, the racetrack has somewhat improved that part of town.

And the crime rate in Vegas or Tunica isn't anything compared to the current crime rate in our city. Ours is one of the worst.

Anyways, swake I agree with you. Note there will be two issues on the Nov. ballot, one for the lottery, and one pertaining to gambling. The latter one won't increase the number of casinos in the state, but will just allow the state to receive tax money from the Indian-run casinos. I personally agree with this....I'm tired of the Indian casinos making a killing on profits without having to pay the state a dime. By voting no on this bill, you'll actually probably help increase gambling in the state, as it will leave more money in the hands of the tribes, thus giving them more money to spend on developing casinos.

Regardless, as swake says, these bills won't affect the current presence of Indian casinos. They're pretty much on their own and free to do whatever they want. And they'll keep growing as we give them the opportunity to....i.e., by not voting yes for the gambling bill that will allow us to tax casinos.

The lottery bill is a whole other issue though. If you're really against gambling, you should probably vote no on that one.

Well, here we go with this moral crap. The "casinos bring more crime and drugs" bit is as old as dirt. Even though I respect the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I don't put much stock in gambling opponents. I used to go to Lucky Star Casino on a regular basis. Never broke me, nor my family. I won some... I lost some. I didn't go for money. I went for fun, and I enjoyed myself. Sure beats a church potluck (oh... wait... that's gluttony. Hmmm... I wonder if this is getting anywhere?)

But Keith IS right about those who get addicted to gambling. Families do get destroyed. But is that a REAL reason to keep gaming banned in Oklahoma? If so, then perhaps we should ban shopping. That gets VERY addictive, and credit card debts from shopping are mounting. While we're at it, let's ban credit cards in Oklahoma. Those are addicting, too. Families get destroyed from that as well. Trading stocks? The stock exchange is the most disguised casino in existence! Instead of crap tables and slot machines, we're using ticker symbols and trading volume along with stock value (more or less casino chips) to do our gambling. That can get addicting as well, especially if you don't know what you're doing. Lose your bet, and not only is your family broke, but jobs get lost and homes get repossessed! So, let's ban trading stock in Oklahoma, because that destroys families too.
Oh, and, yeah! Let's ban the state fair midway! Your putting your money down on a game of chance for a prize, and what's worse about the midway, the vendors rip your a** off! Refuse to pay, and they pull a knife on you.

So, what am I getting at? The point is, it's not the entertainment that destroys families. It's personal irresponsibility. And that's not confined to casino gaming. I seldom gamble, but when I do, I have a limit. If I lose it, I'm done and it's time to go to dinner. If I win, I take my winnings and leave the casino, stash it in the bank and use it for emergencies. Not once did I experience any crime related to gambling, and it sure didn't get me on drugs, because I don't do drugs.

But think about this. See, I am a believer in Christ. And if I ever won my millions at a casino, the Lord is due a huge chunk of my winnings for blessing me. Does that make me a heathen? Does it?

Most people do have a limit on how much money they gamble, however, not that many people are that disciplined. okcpulse is right.......it is personal irresponsibility. Unfortunately, some people just can't seem to control themselves. Some will get lucky and start winning....and winning...and winning. Then they will start losing....and losing, in hopes that they will start winning again. Their adrenaline gets pumping, and then money is not an object.

We all know that the rich people will not be gambling...they don't need to. It will be the middle-low class people, the ones who can't afford it. Face it, some humans are just not very smart. They play the game of luck and they lose...and their families lose.

I'm glad to see okcpulse is a believer in Christ, as I am. I have talked to many pastors who have told me that if a "church member" or somebody else was to win in gambling, and wanting to give an offering to the church, that it would not be accepted.....because it came from gambling. They consider it "dirty " money, and so do I. Although, there are a few churches that are desperate enough, they would take it.

I want to give to the Lord the money I make the old fashioned way...by earning it, not by luck.

Hey okcpulse, I agree with you wholeheartledly. All of the points you make are right on. I fwe ban gambling, we need to ban the stock market, shopping, food, the state fair, alcohol, sex (sorry guys, can't have any more sex with your wives), etc.

Now, I'm a Christian and even an Oklahoma Southern Baptist......and I do agree with Keith that some people take gambling to the extreme and it ruins some families. But so can other things as well. My question is, where do we start banning?

And a lot of Baptist churches don't have a lot of room to talk....how many church raffles have I been to in my lifetime at Baptist church block parties??? Raffles are giving money to buy tickets to try to win a prize....hmmmmm, sounds very similar to a lottery. But churches claim that it's not dirty money like gambling because the proceeds are going to missions, building fund, or whatever. I personally don't see the difference. It's all the same concept.

I think the MAIN point in all of this is not religion. It is the fact that people that live here in Oklahoma ARE going out of state to gamble (whether we approve or not) and that is money that we could use here in OUR state.

suzi, I think it depends on which side of the issue you look at. For those opposing the lottery, it is clearly a moral or religious issue. For those in favor of a lottery its cleary to keep more money in our state for education and the like.

I just question the approach that the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma (BGCO) uses though. Time and time again, in the Baptist Messenger, the state paper for the BGCO, Anthony Jordan, the executive director of the BGCO (and my former pastor), and John Yeats, the editor for the Baptist Messenger, have stated how gambling is sinful and how the Bible clearly points out how gambling is wrong. Well, I confronted both of them about this recently. Neither one could provide any scripture backing up their views. They asked for more time to do some reasearch on the issue. I granted them time. About 3 months later I contacted both. They both said they had done an exhaustive study on it and couldn't find anywhere in the Bible where it directly said that the action of gambling was wrong.

Instead, both men decided to change their focus. Their new focus became, "well, gambling is wrong because it takes advantage of the poor and ruins families."

Well, I can fully agree with that and I understand them oppisng the lottery for those reasons.

But to sit there and say the Bible condemns it, is flat out wrong.....I felt wronged by my very own denominational leaders for lying to me without knowing all of the facts.

Oh, and by the way, rich people gamble just as much as poor people. Last time I was at Thunderbird, there were more Lexuses, Lincolns, and Cadillac's in the parking lot than anything else. Same can be said for Lucky Star.

Regardless of whether one agrees with gambling or not, I think Keith's point of view is acceptable......gambing does impact the well-being of some families. I do agree with my denominational leaders on that one. And by the way, even with this reason given for opposing the lottery, this is still a moral and ethical reason! So, I think the statement that I made at the beginning of this post still stands true: for those opposing the lottery it's more on the grounds of moral issues, for those in favor of the lottery it's more on the grounds of keeping money from leaving our state.

Rich people don’t gamble???

The man has never been to Vegas!

Actually of my friends, the more money they have, the more they gamble. Now I would agree that rich people don’t go to Oklahoma Casinos much (not now anyway) and they don’t play slots much, they most definitely gamble. I have friends that almost have monthly standing tickets on the Southwest flight from Tulsa to Vegas and are VIP members at the Palms.

I don't gamble very often & I limit my cash so it doesn't ever hurt even if I lose everything. I love horse races, I bet on the names or colors... If I win its even more cool because it is so random.

But I leave the decision to gamble to the individual. I mostly object to the parochial attitude some have against "the Poor." We can somehow believe that they are childlike & possibly ignorant. (Why else would they be poor?) This is a holdover from Victorian times when poverty was associated with idleness & low morality.

College educations can help you make a good living, but they don't confer wisdom. I know more than a few wise people with high school educations & several phds that I wouldn't trust to have enough sense to pour piss from a boot if the instructions were printed on the heal.

Lots of things can destroy families & self control is all that prevents damage.

There are social costs for some who can't control themselves, but not everyone. So don't tell me God hates gambling & then not be able to find it in his inerrant word.

And don't tell me that it hurts the poor like they are some childlike class that needs Big Brother to keep them away from sin.

And on a side note: I remember when Horse Racing was going to destroy families & usher in organized crime.

Has it?

I also remember when liquor by the drink was going to destroy families & kill children.

Has it?

:eek:

First, I would like evidence that would withstand a court challange PROOVING that casino gaming causes addiction. It does not. After all, just because someone drinks an alcholoic beverage, does that make them an addict (alcoholic)? No. Just because someone has sex, does that make them addicted to sex? No. Just because someone CHOOSES BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL to enter a gaming establishment or buy a lottery ticket, does not mean they are an addict. People of all walks of life and all incomes go to casinos and buy lottery tickets. The reason people are so misinformed as to believe gaming causes addiction and a lottery causes an addiction is because the majority of the people you see winning these mega jackpots are low brow hicks.

No go? You bet (pun intended). I do not buy that crap about crime and addiction. It just makes no sense. If it was true, the crime rate in Las Vegas would be so high the minute you walked off the jet Bridge at McCarren you would be met by a crip or a blood with a knife or an oozie.

Casino gaming is VERY highly regulated. Even if you sneeze incorrectly, your license is yanked. It is not the days of the mob owning majority interest in the casinos. It is a VERY honest business. Plus, cheats are arrested and prosecuted on felonies at a quick pace. Very few people walk into casinos to commit crimes.

Plus, it is MY right to enter a casino. It is YOUR right not to enter one. Why take away my right just because of your beliefs. Makes no sense to me.

Read what Joe Smoe said. He is correct on his points about this tired, obsolete argument about crime and addiction.

Plus. I bet I find your minister yelling for joy (or Joy depending on if he brings his mistress) when he wins that pot at the crap table.

Think about it. :D

Another thing. And answer honestly. Do not give a fake answer just to make your point look good.

Has the Indian casinos such as Wild West Casino created more crime and CAUSED the addiction of any gamblers?

Think about that before you stereotype the industry with falsehoods.

I think you guys have really expressed some great opinions both for and against gambling. Having a diversity in opinions is what makes a forum like this one interesting. And it's been great watching you guys state your opinions, without trying to attack the other person. I commend you. I know in a lot of forums I've deal with in the past, people tend to take things personal and can start really attacking the person instead of discussing the issue!
Anyways, this thread has provided some great discussion on the issue of gambling. Thanks everyone for participating and expressing your opinions.

Regardless of how opponents try to sway my vote, I already have my mind made up. I am voting yes on the lottery AND the tribal gaming compact/racetrack casino issues. If I had a ballot in hand right now, "for" would be marked. The "against" option wouldn't even attract my attention.

Hey, I visited Winstar Casino today. My first casino visit in Oklahoma. I put a post on my blog about it. Check it out.

http://theoklahoman.blogspot.com

The Oklahoman had an interesting read about the Casinos that are being run by the Cheyenne/Arapaho tribes. Apparently, they are ignoring an indian court order that requires them to disperse money according to set parameters, e.g. 16% to senior services, etc. They are ignoring it in favor of the old system in which 8 tribal leaders/businessmen are approached with individuals in need that can petition them for aid. Those businessmen get to disperse the money as they see fit (and if you don't see the corruption that is guaranteed with that system, you're blind).

The way it sounds, there'd be less corruption if we let the mafia start up a casino in the middle of Bricktown.

Sounds like if the Cheyenne/Arapaho tribes don't change their way, their casinos are gonig to be shut down too.

Hey Luke, I read your review on Winstar. I've been to several of the state casinos, including Winstar. Your review was pretty much in line with what I would've given it. I will admit...Winstar is huge...but it seems to me like a lot of Winstar's space is taken up by their bingo hall!

It is the largest casino in the state, but I don't really think it's the nicest. The new Cherokee Resort casino in east Tulsa, off I-44 is much nicer.....it reminds me more of the casinos in Vegas because it has a high rise hotel attached to the complex....the lobby of the hotel flows right into the casino. It's not like Winstar where it has hotels off in the distance, unattached.
If you want to see a first class state casino you might make a trip up to Tulsa sometime...it's just off I-44 (north side) a few miles east of Memorial. You can't miss it.

Unfortunately, all of the state casinos are all smoking. That's one drawback. Seems like Cherokee didn't seem as smoky though.

We also went to Creek Casino in Tulsa (off Riverside) and it was the worst in regards to smoke. I probably won't be back there for awhile. swake in the past has mentioned some of the renovations that are taking place there though.

I've been to most of the state casinos, and I'd probably say Winstar is the 2nd nicest. Give Cherokee a try sometime...you'll be very impressed.....especially with the newer part closer to the high rise hotel.

Oh....Cherokee has a pic of the hotel on their website. I believe it's 7 or 8 stories. http://www.cherokeecasino.com/

I've said it before and I'll say it again...People are goin' to do what they're going to do...

Yeah, I saw a commercial for the new Cherokee Casino. It looks really really nice. I'm sure it's nicer than the Winstar. However, one of my pet peeves is paying to drive somewhere in Oklahoma. Therefore, I won't go to Tulsa cuz I don't wanna pay, what, $7.00 both ways? I've only been there maybe 5 times ever and I've lived in Oklahoma 15 years. Anyways...

Maybe someday I'll make it up to the Cherokee Casino. Or I can just hope that the Chickasaws build a nicer one near OKC. :)

Yeah, I saw a commercial for the new Cherokee Casino. It looks really really nice. I'm sure it's nicer than the Winstar. However, one of my pet peeves is paying to drive somewhere in Oklahoma. Therefore, I won't go to Tulsa cuz I don't wanna pay, what, $7.00 both ways? I've only been there maybe 5 times ever and I've lived in Oklahoma 15 years. Anyways...

Maybe someday I'll make it up to the Cherokee Casino. Or I can just hope that the Chickasaws build a nicer one near OKC. :)

Have you ever thought of trying another freeway? I-40 is not a turnpike and you could go, I think to the Muskogee exit. Or it goes all the way to US 75. I can not remember if that one is a turnpike, however, all it would do is slow you down by five miles per hour. I think distance is about the same.

Yeah, I saw a commercial for the new Cherokee Casino. It looks really really nice. I'm sure it's nicer than the Winstar. However, one of my pet peeves is paying to drive somewhere in Oklahoma. Therefore, I won't go to Tulsa cuz I don't wanna pay, what, $7.00 both ways? I've only been there maybe 5 times ever and I've lived in Oklahoma 15 years. Anyways...

Maybe someday I'll make it up to the Cherokee Casino. Or I can just hope that the Chickasaws build a nicer one near OKC. :)If you take the 66, it might be longer, but the scenery's better and you don't have to pay a bajillion bucks to go straight through..

I know there are free, but less efficient ways to get to Tulsa. It just doesn't seem fair that the best, quickest way to Tulsa costs $7.00. I do want to go up Route 66 someday for the historical value of it.

I agree with you Luke. What irritates me is that after the Turner Turnpike was payed for, the toll was supposed to disappear. Instead, the state is now using toll money earned from the Turner Turnpike and other state toll roads to build new toll roads. Argh! Seems like a vicious cycle.

Most people do have a limit on how much money they gamble, however, not that many people are that disciplined. okcpulse is right.......it is personal irresponsibility. Unfortunately, some people just can't seem to control themselves. Some will get lucky and start winning....and winning...and winning. Then they will start losing....and losing, in hopes that they will start winning again. Their adrenaline gets pumping, and then money is not an object.

We all know that the rich people will not be gambling...they don't need to. It will be the middle-low class people, the ones who can't afford it. Face it, some humans are just not very smart. They play the game of luck and they lose...and their families lose.

I'm glad to see okcpulse is a believer in Christ, as I am. I have talked to many pastors who have told me that if a "church member" or somebody else was to win in gambling, and wanting to give an offering to the church, that it would not be accepted.....because it came from gambling. They consider it "dirty " money, and so do I. Although, there are a few churches that are desperate enough, they would take it.

I want to give to the Lord the money I make the old fashioned way...by earning it, not by luck.

I'm glad that you know this.

What is your evidence?

You have none? Yet you seem to believe that this is the truth?

Please. I challenge you to actually bring something -- some sources to back up your very weak hyperbole. Gambling hurts families? Prove it. Gambling only targets the poor? Prove it.

I'm tired of people bringing these hasty generalizations to the table.

Either bring some proof or nothing at all.

Just want to emphasize Luke's assumption on the Turner Turnpike tolls. The toll is $7.00 round-trip... or $3.50 one way. It's annoying, and the turnpike should be freed, but remember tolls on Florida turnpikes, the nation's largest turnpike system, is at least twice as much as Oklahoma tolls.

Well, if Patrick is right about the original plan to make the turpike free, it just makes me never want to use it that much more.

Where in the bleep is all that money going? Is some Turnpike Authority guy getting rich? You'd never know it was going to other roads in our state. Sheesh.

Well, if Patrick is right about the original plan to make the turpike free, it just makes me never want to use it that much more.

Where in the bleep is all that money going? Is some Turnpike Authority guy getting rich? You'd never know it was going to other roads in our state. Sheesh.

Actually, the money goes into expanding the current turnpike system and maintaining what they already have. A lot of it goes to some of the unprofitable turnpikes like the Indian Nations turnpike (built because of powerful state legislators from southeastern Oklahoma like Gene Stipe).

Well, if Patrick is right about the original plan to make the turpike free, it just makes me never want to use it that much more.

Where in the bleep is all that money going? Is some Turnpike Authority guy getting rich? You'd never know it was going to other roads in our state. Sheesh.

When the state legislature authorized the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority, I think in 1950 (the 50's for sure), there was a clause that stated when the turnpike was paid in full, it would be come free. That clause has never been enforced.

Gary Richardson, the most serious Independant candidate we have ever had for Oklahoma Governor, pledged to honor that clause. None of the other candidates would touch it.

One reason I voted for Richardson. We need to honor what the legislature said. :headscrat

That is the reason I voted for Richardson too.

Maybe we should inform The Oklahoman, The Tulsa World, KFOR, KWTV, KOCO, KOTV, KTUL and let them know they have a great story on their hands. Maybe one of them will run with it. Expose the turnpike authority.

That is the reason I voted for Richardson too.

Maybe we should inform The Oklahoman, The Tulsa World, KFOR, KWTV, KOCO, KOTV, KTUL and let them know they have a great story on their hands. Maybe one of them will run with it. Expose the turnpike authority.

That has been done many times. I have no idea with the exception of electing Richardson, how to get what we are entitled to.

As long as people like Barry Switzer buy offices and people vote the incumbant without analyzing the issues, then we will continue to be hosed.

Actually the expansion projects on the Kilpatrick turnpike are being payed for by profits off of the other turnpikes.

THERE IS NO WIN IN WINSTAR
To any one thinking they are going to capitalize at WinStar Casino in OK, better THINK AGAIN. Now everybody knows that the house always has the advantage. As a frequent player I would like to share some of the pitfalls learned along the way, some of which I wished had been given to me prior to going. If I can spare even one individual, it will be worth it. WinStar has come up with a few extra ways to help you part with your money.

First some of the common unknowns. NO ALCOHOL is served at WinStar, WinStar is NOT open 24 hours a day, the establishment ( I hate to call it a casino, since they don’t run it like one) is divided into 3 sections the first of these 3 sections is shut down at 3 or 4am regardless of how much investment you may have put into a machine you will get thrown out. The second section closes at 5am and the last section or entire building shuts down at 6am NO EXCEPTIONS. To the best of my knowledge this information is not posted anywhere, I've seen many customers burned by this trick (work a machine to then be told by security to get off it). Almost every game uses a magnetic type card, which tracks every thing you do there along with keeping track of your money. From your initial investment and any winnings you may have been fortunate to obtain. VERY IMPORTANT if you do not redeem the monies on these cards or any tickets printed from a cashed out machine by 6am, that money will be gone. WinStar makes a feeble attempt of warning you on this but again I've seen and been victim to this "low blow" of WinStar's. WinStar does very little in the way of "Comps". After spending somewhere between $30,000 - $50,000 did I finally get a comp for a free meal; I HAD TO ASK THEM FOR IT THOUGH. WinStar's rewards points work like this; Last time I was updated you will receive $1 for every $600 you play, so if you plan on having the $12.95 steak dinner + drink, tax & tip on your rewards points you better plan on playing approx. $10,800.

CUSTOMER INCONVENIENCE is the specialty of the house. Most games use the card, others will pay out tickets which need to be redeemed, you will love it when you stand in line to cash in your ticket only to finally get up to the teller and be told they can't cash that kind of ticket. You probably will have to go all the way to the other side of the establishment to redeem. My favorite is when they tell you the person responsible for that type of payoff is on break or at lunch (the trick here is to aggravate you enough to go back out on the floor and start losing back the money). I've even been told on more than one occasion "We are out of money" You'll be guaranteed to see the most people available to assist at the least needed time and the least amount of assistants at the most needed time "Blackjack cashing out, a joke".

Blackjack the player's best bet, usually. NOT HERE It has been told to me in probably 14 different tales, what the $.50 ante is used for. Regardless you as the player will be out $.50 for each and every hand you play, win, lose or draw no matter if the state is given this money and the casino can't show it as a profit etc., etc.. I've seen blue colored cards mixed into red colored decks, short shoes, cards found on the floor, etc., etc. if you don't know the word "gaffed" better look into it. Read up on the average number of times a dealer should flop a ten valued card then go to WinStar and count how many they flop, talk about pre-arranged. Learn lots more about Blackjack at blackjackforumonline you will need to be able to see a stacked deck and continuous shuffle machines can easily be setup against players.

"The quietest casino I've ever been in", a good indicator of a casino's slot pay out opportunities as a whole is to listen for the winning sounds. People tend to get loud when a winner appears and the slots will usually produce a winner indicated noise. I have been in the WinStar when nobody is there and I have been there when it is at full capacity. On many of these occasions when the establishment is full I have noted the noise indicators resemble an empty casino. Let me put it to you like this. Why does WinStar feel it necessary to announce over the loud speaker every time they have a jackpot. Here's a theory, usually when something comes along that’s rare people tend to brag about it and since it happens so infrequently they want the other couple of thousand people playing who were not in the vicinity to witness to know (I wonder how many fall for this). A jackpot is $1,200 and up, the majority paid out are between $1,200-$2,000. These types of pay outs are very rare. In most cases you will lose your initial investment and try again and again etc. Eventually you hit, think you’re a winner, chances are your not. If you don’t immediately leave you are going to lose more of the winnings, subtract the investment prior and the taxes you will have to pay and the end result is usually negative. Don't think you can make up the difference by claiming losses on your taxes either. You can only claim losses up to the total amount of winnings and the way the gov't factors those two you get screwed even more. You wont be avoiding the whole tax thing either, if you want your money you have to fill out the forms and WinStar will send in your claim so the gov't will know. If you like to gamble play the state lottery. If you need a casino go to Louisiana or ones that are regulated. The cost of the drive will be offset by the generous comps offered elsewhere. Why give your money away to an operation that won't even show their appreciation for your business. This is a hospitality industry apparently Winstar was never informed.

All 4 Lucky Star Casinos (Concho, Clinton, Canton, Hammon and Watonga) closed last Friday citing 'internet interruption.

Turns out they have been the victim of a ransom cyber attack; notice from their Facebook page:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/luckystar062121a.jpg

I heard that the original FBI response was "less robust" (my words) than the tribe had hoped for. Although, a casino getting hit might be considered less a threat to National Security than an oil pipeline.

Being a former employee of a software company that ran the casino back-office systems (like game data/vault/kiosks/etc), you will never find me in one. These establishments are not set up to pay out....they are there to make money. And contrary to what was said above, most people DO not set themselves a limit. Gambling addiction is HUGE and not always seen for what it is...including with the staff.

I can't even tell you how many times people cashed out their social security checks in one of our kiosks to go burn it. Those blue hair old ladies aren't just bingo players. They burn it at all hours of the night in any way they can, and 99% of it being slots. You'll see people with THOUSANDS of dollars on their tickets. They are spending THOUSANDS at a time people. And they don't second think it at all. They live for the win and are willing to spend oodles to get it. They might win a 5k payout, but the win/loss (which is ABSOLUTELY tracked by the player) is not in their favor....again, the casino is there to make money, not pay it out. They take in so much money, that they have to give it away in those "prizes" to offset their intake. You dont think they actually bring in extra people when they give away a lawn mower do you?

There are two types of facilities. Those that the tribes run as businesses (the successful ones) and those that run it as a tribal employment firm (which tend to fail). The first are set up like Choctaw/Creek/Chickasaw/etc. They absolutely know what they're doing and do the business side properly. Even if you do not like something they are doing, well you can guarantee that a LOT of thought and consideration went in to the "why" of what they did. They are far from fools. In fact, i would argue that some of these larger groups are some of the better business minds around, being extreme experts in their field. The second type are those smaller facilities of say 10-50k sq ft. They're focused on only employing tribal members at the sacrifice to the business. So many of these have failed across the state people they didn't make a good business decision. It doesn't help to employee tribal members if the place has to close down because you were hemorrhaging money on bad salaries. These pop up and close down all the time.

Smoking - you know immediately if they have good HVAC. Oklahoma has had a few non-smoking facilities in the past, but then invariably are smaller and close. It goes with the territory (and is disgusting). The amount of time spend cleaning that mess off of machines....OMG!

Reality just isn't what people think it is when looking from the outside. IF I ever go to one, I set my limit low at something like $20-30. Have a good time, treat it like going to the theater...and then GET OUT. But don't be fooled, everything is designed to keep you there and to not give your money back to you. As I said, they're not dumb....they're calculating.

Excellent point, Bombermwc... Especially about setting your betting limit and getting out.

I was meeting someone in the business offices of Remington Park on a Tuesday morning and walked through their casino.

It was busy and full of the saddest-looking people I've ever seen. It depressed the hell out of me.

I figure older retired people with money know full well they can't take their money with them when they die, so why don't blow much of their money on what gives them most pleasure, such as casinos? As long as they don't go so wildly and crazy overboard with it that they they can't pay their monthly bills, I don't see anything wrong with it.

But I would be worried about much younger people blowing their money away in casinos.

I go to the casino once a month as my "entertainment expense". I don't go to the movies. I don't really go out to eat. I will tell you this much though for the last two years I have tracked how much I have lost and it does slow you down and keep you in the right frame of mind. Buy lost i mean I usually take $100 if I come home with $20 lost $80. I only went twice last year cause of covid. I went I think around 15 times in 2019 and 13 times in 2018. I think I came home with more money than I walked in with only 4 times out of 28 trips. I lost an average of around $70 a trip. Like I said when you start putting down what your winning and losing you will be shocked on how many times you lose vs winning. That being said I'm done with the Oklahoma casinos and saying money to go to Vegas. SWA had a $200 round trip fare Mid September and it's been 16 years since I been out there so I jumped on it. Can't do Allegiant sorry.

Vegas is good at taking your money too...^^^^

Vegas is good at taking your money too...^^^^

That what she said. :)

I was meeting someone in the business offices of Remington Park on a Tuesday morning and walked through their casino.

It was busy and full of the saddest-looking people I've ever seen. It depressed the hell out of me.

Remington Park is disgusting. Sketchy people and filthy casino floor. The horse race stands are in need of major repair also. Once was enough for me.

wow. a thread started in 2004. I had no idea OKCtalk was even around back then.

I was meeting someone in the business offices of Remington Park on a Tuesday morning and walked through their casino.

It was busy and full of the saddest-looking people I've ever seen. It depressed the hell out of me.

Unfortunately that's any casino I've ever seen with only slots and no table games.

I work with several gambling addicts. No problem spending several hundred bucks just on scratchers to play in the breakroom. (We have cash lottery machines in the concourse) They work an insane amount of overtime to go to the mountain casinos or fly to Vegas to blow thousands of dollars over one night. They are back at work the next day.

A sad addiction. I gamble for fun on occasion, but that is the extent of it. Probably a total of $200 over the course of a year. Maybe more if someone invites me to a casino for a special celebration. I rarely go to a casino by myself, always someone else's idea and I'll play along. It's fun for an hour or two at most.

Remington Park is disgusting. Sketchy people and filthy casino floor. The horse race stands are in need of major repair also. Once was enough for me.

I agree. All those seats are ripped upstairs. It's been what 30 years now I think it's time for new chairs. The casino isn't bad but too small. I'm shocked they haven't found a way to make it bigger seems like they have room. Maybe they are not allowed too? Speaking of making it bigger I'm shocked newcastle stays the way it does. I would of torn all that down and build a nice giant casino but I guess if your making money and I'm sure they are there is no need too

^

The number of machines they can run is highly regulated by their agreement with the state; they've lobbied several times to have the number increased.

I was told they would make the whole thing a casino and not run horses at all if they were allowed. As it is, they run the absolute minimum of races that are required.

^

The number of machines they can run is highly regulated by their agreement with the state; they've lobbied several times to have the number increased.

I was told they would make the whole thing a casino and not run horses at all if they were allowed. As it is, they run the absolute minimum of races that are required.

I believe that last sentence is no longer accurate. I am not a "horsemn" by any stretch. But I am a pretty interested observer. I have heard from track PR that the race participation is on an upswing the last couple years.

The track set up is mostly as follows (remember, I am an amateur) -

Number of racing days per year. This is set by the state IIRC. Might even be in the constitution via the Racino law. not sure.

Split of those days into "meets". Lately it has been 2 per year- Quarter Horses in the spring and Thoroughbreds in the fall. I think the state Horse Racing Commission set these in partnership with the tracks.

Overall number of races per meet. I think this the Horse Race Commission tells the tracks the minimum, but tracks have some input.

The number of races per meet has been increasing the last few years. This is supposed to be driven by higher purses being paid for each race, which draws more horses.

What I do know is happening is that there are more races per day with more horses per race lately. In 2005 there may have been 8 races per day with 8 horse per race average, today it is more like 10 races per day with 10 horses per race.

A horse seems able to race one every 2-3 weeks. They mostly stay at the track during the meet. An average week is 4 days X 10 races X 10 horses = 400 horses per week. I recall Remington Park has added horse barns and n\can now host over 1000 horses. It is a busy place.

I think the Remington Park horse operation and grandstands are some of the most extreme examples of "disruption" in recent memory. Remington Park opened in 1989 IIRC, and had 5-8 years of solid returns and operation. Today...the track...the actual horse racing just finished the "fall thoroughbred meet" (66 days of racing) with a record betting handle of just over $101 million. But, about 99 percent of that was bet out of state. The money bet at Remington Park was around $2 million. The vast majority of horse bets (pari-mutual?) stay within the betting "pool", so Remington gets a small percentage of the pool, not a huge cut of all losses.

The 1-2 percent of bettors who go to Remington Park are what supports the grandstands vendors, bars and restaurants. This inverted percentage is an extreme due to COVID, but still represents how big the shift is becoming.

In 1989, I'm guessing 80% of the betting on Remington Park was at the track and supporting all those stands, dining and drinking. Today it is probably 90% off track. This leaves most of the square footage looking like Crossroads Mall in it's disuse.