This was in the New York Times this morning.

https://dnyuz.com/2023/03/02/oklahoma-wants-to-be-the-next-texas-imagine-that/

The wife and I are moving out of Jacksonville by Sept 30 of this year so we have spent the past 4 years looking for a new city to call home. After visiting 38 states in those 4 years we have narrowed it down to 3 cities - OKC, Knoxville, and Cincinnati. Income taxes are pretty high on our list which is why Knoxville made our top 3. Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax.

If Oklahoma wants real population growth then they need to eliminate the income tax.

The wife and I are moving out of Jacksonville by Sept 30 of this year so we have spent the past 4 years looking for a new city to call home. After visiting 38 states in those 4 years we have narrowed it down to 3 cities - OKC, Knoxville, and Cincinnati. Income taxes are pretty high on our list which is why Knoxville made our top 3. Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax.

If Oklahoma wants real population growth then they need to eliminate the income tax.

My only problem with this is that it robs Peter to pay Paul. The funding would come from somewhere, and it would be property tax. I like my mortgage for a $150k house being about $1k a month. If they had to rely on property tax, then my mortgage would go up significantly. Texans pay more in taxes than we do, because of high property taxes.

Hence why no state income tax is a scam.

My only problem with this is that it robs Peter to pay Paul. The funding would come from somewhere, and it would be property tax. I like my mortgage for a $150k house being about $1k a month. If they had to rely on property tax, then my mortgage would go up significantly. Texans pay more in taxes than we do, because of high property taxes.

Hence why no state income tax is a scam.

^^^ Totally this. As a native Texan, I can tell you that Texas has no individual income tax, but property taxes are incredibly high.

It all washes out in the end.

"More than 100 companies have come to Oklahoma in the last five years, including 29 last year, and another 200 have announced expansions, according to the state Commerce Department, resulting in more than $10 billion in promised new investments. Six companies moved their headquarters to the state."

The wife and I are moving out of Jacksonville by Sept 30 of this year so we have spent the past 4 years looking for a new city to call home. After visiting 38 states in those 4 years we have narrowed it down to 3 cities - OKC, Knoxville, and Cincinnati. Income taxes are pretty high on our list which is why Knoxville made our top 3. Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax.

If Oklahoma wants real population growth then they need to eliminate the income tax.

If you rank states by total tax burden, OK is 41st, Ohio is 19th and Tennessee is 49th.

I'm for a consumption tax (including on services) instead of property tax.

Here is the difference between income tax and property tax. The vast majority of people do everything within their power to maximize earnings. It is an almost universal desire. Even people with no education and no job skills play the lottery to maximize earnings. At the same time most people try to minimize their expenses - taxes being an expense. In states with income taxes you increase your expenses when you try to maximize your earnings. You have no choice.

With property tax I can 100% control how much taxes I am willing to pay. I can rent a house, I can rent an apartment, I can live full time in an RV, and I can pick where I want any of those to be located. I can buy a house or a condo and again I can pick where I want those to be and also how big they are.

It allows me total control to choose between taxes and public amenities. I have family members that don't like property taxes and don't value public amenities so they live in a mobile home out in the sticks. We personally prefer living downtown where property taxes are generally much higher but we offset that by only having one car and using public transit or just walking.

Furthermore I can also control how much sales taxes I want to pay. We can go have $100 steaks or $20 Mexican food for dinner. We can grocery shop at Whole Foods or Aldi.

Anyhow, you get the idea.

So, rental properties are exempt from property tax?

So, rental properties are exempt from property tax?

Don't let facts ruin his story. They definitely are not.

I'm not an economist but if income taxes were replaced by property taxes, wouldn't that be to the detriment of the person who is struggling and not paying a high level of income tax now, but would be faced with a situation where their landlord would dramatically increase their rent to pay the property tax burden?

Plenty of studies have shown that Texas has a higher overall tax burden than Oklahoma, as shown here:

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494


Asserting that property tax doesn't impact everyone is like arguing since you don't directly pay corporate tax that those rates don't impact customers and citizens in general.

I know, I know, don't read the comments, but.... they provide an insight (one that is extremely unsurprising to many of us) about what prevents so many people from wanting to move here. For those interested in the state's growth, it's a real issue, whether or not people want to deal with it.

I know, I know, don't read the comments, but.... they provide an insight (one that is extremely unsurprising to many of us) about what prevents so many people from wanting to move here. For those interested in the state's growth, it's a real issue, whether or not people want to deal with it.

Which is what? You are wanting a higher tax burden? Just wanting to make sure. I agree to an extent, but I don't think low taxes keep people from moving here. Unless you are talking about meaning having more cash to throw at companies to move here.

Which is what? You are wanting a higher tax burden? Just wanting to make sure. I agree to an extent, but I don't think low taxes keep people from moving here. Unless you are talking about meaning having more cash to throw at companies to move here.

He's talking about the comments on the NYT article, not on this thread.

Let's put this in a mathmatical equation

X income tax + Y property tax = Z tax burden

If you don't care about X and Y then what difference does it make to you so long as Z doesn't change?

Let's put this in a mathmatical equation

X income tax + Y property tax = Z tax burden

If you don't care about X and Y then what difference does it make to you so long as Z doesn't change?

But Z is higher in Texas than in Oklahoma when you also factor in sales tax.

So the tax burden is higher there even without state income tax.

So, rental properties are exempt from property tax?

They are but a landlord can't simply pass on 100% of property taxes increases. Business doesn't work that way because demand lines aren't linear. At $1000/mo an apartment complex might me 95% occupied, but at $1100 it could drop to 80% occupied. The owner can't just pass on the $100 increase because he would lose more money than if he just ate the $100 property tax increase.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/012915/what-difference-between-inelasticity-and-elasticity-demand.asp#:~:text=The%20elasticity%20of%20demand% 20refers,shifts%20when%20economic%20factors%20chan ge.

But Z is higher in Texas than in Oklahoma when you also factor in sales tax.

So the tax burden is higher there even without state income tax.

Yes Z is higher in Texas but so what? That is because Texas spends more person. It isn't like an income tax vs. sales tax is responsible for that.

New Hampshire to be 100% income tax free by 2027, become the 9th state to be income tax free.

https://arbcpa.com/new-hampshire-legislation-reduces-corporate-taxes-eliminates-personal-income-tax/

Kentucky is also on track to eliminate their income tax which is especially attractive to me because Covington, KY is just a short walk across the Ohio River from downtown Cincinnati.

Yes Z is higher in Texas but so what? That is because Texas spends more person. It isn't like an income tax vs. sales tax is responsible for that.

In what ways do they spend more per person? Not in ways that boost quality of life. They pay corporations a ton to move there. That is where a lot of that money goes. Gotta cover those massive tax breaks big companies get to move there. Doesn't get passed on to normal citizens in any way.

Yes Z is higher in Texas but so what? That is because Texas spends more person. It isn't like an income tax vs. sales tax is responsible for that.

You JUST started this argument by saying Oklahoma should lower taxes in order to match Texas population growth.

You are just arguing with yourself.

Here is the difference between income tax and property tax. The vast majority of people do everything within their power to maximize earnings. It is an almost universal desire. Even people with no education and no job skills play the lottery to maximize earnings. At the same time most people try to minimize their expenses - taxes being an expense. In states with income taxes you increase your expenses when you try to maximize your earnings. You have no choice.

With property tax I can 100% control how much taxes I am willing to pay. I can rent a house, I can rent an apartment, I can live full time in an RV, and I can pick where I want any of those to be located. I can buy a house or a condo and again I can pick where I want those to be and also how big they are.

It allows me total control to choose between taxes and public amenities. I have family members that don't like property taxes and don't value public amenities so they live in a mobile home out in the sticks. We personally prefer living downtown where property taxes are generally much higher but we offset that by only having one car and using public transit or just walking.

Furthermore I can also control how much sales taxes I want to pay. We can go have $100 steaks or $20 Mexican food for dinner. We can grocery shop at Whole Foods or Aldi.

Anyhow, you get the idea.

Renters DO pay property tax. It's usually bundled into the rent they are paying.

Really interesting NY Times article; I actually had a friend send it to me this morning. I think it generally portrayed the city fairly, as ever I am impressed with the reasonableness of Mayor Holt.

Reading the NYT comments takes a strong stomach but I do hope people at the city and state level read those comments. It's important to remember that for a large segment of the American population, Oklahoma and Texas (and indeed everywhere in flyover country) are defined by the very worst of their impulses. People see what they want to see. Amid much self-congratulations on the urban advancements of OKC and Tulsa comes the reality that many, many people in the country do not want what our home state is selling. And many of those stereotypes are unfair (in much the same way that crime stereotypes in Chicago are also unfair) but that does not make them any less potent to the people that want to believe them.

The wife and I are moving out of Jacksonville by Sept 30 of this year so we have spent the past 4 years looking for a new city to call home. After visiting 38 states in those 4 years we have narrowed it down to 3 cities - OKC, Knoxville, and Cincinnati. Income taxes are pretty high on our list which is why Knoxville made our top 3. Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax.

If Oklahoma wants real population growth then they need to eliminate the income tax.

If Oklahoma would repeal the sales tax on food, it would help a lot. It would be further nice if it included restaurant meals, but I heard many states don't do that.

Yes Z is higher in Texas but so what? That is because Texas spends more person. It isn't like an income tax vs. sales tax is responsible for that.

My two living brothers and I inherited 30 acres of land near Cameron, TX in a city named Jones Prairie. We just paid $3,380 in property taxes to Milam County and Cameron Independent School District, since we don't live in Texas, we can't claim homestead
exemption. The taxes keep going up, so does the land value.

There is oil on the 30 acreage--may decide to keep or sell the mineral rights. Haven't seen in drilling in the area.

The taxes on this acreage outrageous.

They are but a landlord can't simply pass on 100% of property taxes increases. Business doesn't work that way because demand lines aren't linear. At $1000/mo an apartment complex might me 95% occupied, but at $1100 it could drop to 80% occupied. The owner can't just pass on the $100 increase because he would lose more money than if he just ate the $100 property tax increase.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/012915/what-difference-between-inelasticity-and-elasticity-demand.asp#:~:text=The%20elasticity%20of%20demand% 20refers,shifts%20when%20economic%20factors%20chan ge.

I think they can, and they need to pass on the tax increase 100%. It is a true charge against profit, so it is a benefit to carry that cost 100%. Regardless, a cost of doing business is a cost of doing business. And if you don't charge more than cost, you don't make money.

I agree with removing the income tax. Hopefully that happens.

There is sure a lot of scathing comments in this NY Times article about Oklahoma and some about Texas in the comments section. According to them, Oklahoma is a State full of religious zealots, tornados, narrow minded people that do not value education. I could never live in my home State again. There is to much negative things in Oklahoma including those Oklahoma Yokels that run this State, including Gov. Twitt. I am surprised that the residents of this State enjoy having a bad reputation nationally. Very sad!

There is sure a lot of scathing comments in this NY Times article about Oklahoma and some about Texas in the comments section. According to them, Oklahoma is a State full of religious zealots, tornados, narrow minded people that do not value education. I could never live in my home State again. There is to much negative things in Oklahoma including those Oklahoma Yokels that run this State, including Gov. Twitt. I am surprised that the residents of this State enjoy having a bad reputation nationally. Very sad!

I’m convinced the bottom feeders of society are the ones commenting on news articles.

My only problem with this is that it robs Peter to pay Paul. The funding would come from somewhere, and it would be property tax. I like my mortgage for a $150k house being about $1k a month. If they had to rely on property tax, then my mortgage would go up significantly. Texans pay more in taxes than we do, because of high property taxes.

Hence why no state income tax is a scam.

Nevada also has no income tax, but they make it up with a gross receipts tax. My understanding of this is that businesses are taxed on their gross income; they can't "write off" any expenses.

Seems like a good deal if you're an individual worker. And it doesn't seem to hurt Nevada's ability to attract and retain businesses much.

You JUST started this argument by saying Oklahoma should lower taxes in order to match Texas population growth.

You are just arguing with yourself.

I never said Oklahoma should lower taxes to match Texas. Eliminating the income tax should be revenue neutral and be done in conjunction with raising taxes in other areas, like what Kentucky is doing.

Kentucky is planning to be income tax free by 2027 through a series of triggers tied to revenue growth.

The new governor of Arkansas has a goal of eliminating their state income tax by the end of her first term.

I never said Oklahoma should lower taxes to match Texas. Eliminating the income tax should be revenue neutral and be done in conjunction with raising taxes in other areas, like what Kentucky is doing.

Kentucky is planning to be income tax free by 2027 through a series of triggers tied to revenue growth.

The new governor of Arkansas has a goal of eliminating their state income tax by the end of her first term.

I think the voters of Oklahoma passed a constitutional amendment about 20-25 years ago that requires any tax increase to be approved by a 75% majority of the legislature. This makes raising any tax a political impossibility.

Haha, imagine saying lowering income taxes should be offset somewhere else, and saying that the are tax free...lolol

Haha, imagine saying lowering income taxes should be offset somewhere else, and saying that the are tax free...lolol

Did someone say "tax free"?

Did someone say "tax free"?

No. But you keep saying that income tax needs to go, not caring that it will be replaced dollar for dollar, if not more, by property taxes. So it is a sum-zero problem.

And if you are looking to save money, not buying a home and choosing to rent (in an attempt to 'avoid' property tax, which will still be passed down to the lessee) is the dumbest idea ever.

There is a reason that every financial planner will tell you that renting is flushing money down the toilet.

And if you are looking to save money, not buying a home and choosing to rent (in an attempt to 'avoid' property tax, which will still be passed down to the lessee) is the dumbest idea ever.

There is a reason that every financial planner will tell you that renting is flushing money down the toilet.

Yeah but you can always buy a smaller house. You can avoid and reduce property taxes. Income taxes not as much.

That's why i like property taxes over income. In general, consumption taxes are better.

No. But you keep saying that income tax needs to go, not caring that it will be replaced dollar for dollar, if not more, by property taxes. So it is a sum-zero problem.

Actually I did say it needs to be revenue neutral - several times.

There are limits to the annual property tax increases allowed in each state unless it changes hands. In Oklahoma, it cannot exceed 5%. In California, it's 2%.

So if you stay put, even if your house drastically increases in value (as mine has over the last 5 years), your property tax remains artificially low. It's not just about buying a smaller house, it's staying in one place with the option to make improvements to meet changing needs/desires. It's a very simple way to guarantee your effective property tax is reduced over time -- just don't move.

And there are endless ways to reduce your income tax.

The one drawback to capping property tax increases is that when your house is losing value the property tax increases keep coming. California learned this the hard way in 2008. I know in Norman when you reach a certain age property tax increases stop and your home is locked into the current amount until you sell or die.

The one drawback to capping property tax increases is that when your house is losing value the property tax increases keep coming. California learned this the hard way in 2008.

This is 100% false.

I owned a house in California in 2008 and my property tax was reduced.

There is the Assessor's Market Value, and Taxable Market Value. Taxable Market Value increases are capped at 3% for homestead properties, and 5% for all others.
Assessor's Market Value is based on their mass appraisal models. The Taxable Market Value is never more than Market Value. If the Market Value decreases year over year, so does the Taxable Market Value.
But if Market Value increases 10%, the Taxable Market Value can only increase 3% (if you have a homestead exemption).

This is 100% false.

I owned a house in California in 2008 and my property tax was reduced.

Then you were one of the few because when home prices increase faster than property taxes increase there is a latency effect when home prices peak and start to fall again. Property taxes continue to increase after home prices stabilize until they catch up to current taxbale value.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2008-jul-09-me-assess9-story.html

Then you were one of the few because when home prices increase faster than property taxes increase there is a latency effect when home prices peak and start to fall again

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2008-jul-09-me-assess9-story.html

Didn't say it happened immediately.

The California constitution says that property taxes have to be reduced when assessed values fall. It takes time for assessments to catch up, both in rises and falls, so any latency works in both directions. And when they do fall, the base is reset and the 2% max per year is still the ceiling.

I can tell you my property tax was as low there as it is here, and my Cailfornia house was worth 4-5x my current home.

I think the voters of Oklahoma passed a constitutional amendment about 20-25 years ago that requires any tax increase to be approved by a 75% majority of the legislature. This makes raising any tax a political impossibility.

Not totally really. The reason you pay 3 cents more in gas tax is because the legislature voted to do it. And it's not even to maintain the roads.

There is sure a lot of scathing comments in this NY Times article about Oklahoma and some about Texas in the comments section. According to them, Oklahoma is a State full of religious zealots, tornados, narrow minded people that do not value education. I could never live in my home State again. There is to much negative things in Oklahoma including those Oklahoma Yokels that run this State, including Gov. Twitt. I am surprised that the residents of this State enjoy having a bad reputation nationally. Very sad!

If commentators are from New York, that state leads the country in population loss and outmigration, so they shouldn't be talking.

If they could look at the new buildings at OSU and new elementary schools in Stillwater, they would get a better idea of how Oklahoma values education. As far as tornadoes, one hasn't gone through Stillwater since 1990 and hopefully it will indefinitely stay that way.

Oklahoma having a bad reputation should work in keeping the population growth from getting out of hand.

Oklahoma City certainly leads the way to what progressive can mean in a Red State through its MAPS projects.

I am likely one of the few here that does not want to become Texas. My take has always been its close enough to travel on weekends and get your fix of anything then can come back here where its not so hustle bustle. I love it “here” and don’t want to become “there”. Why does a majority who post here want so much growth? Eventually you are not unique as a city and you will never compete with long established big cities. But look around at those big cities and they have issues.

Now we are losing our downtown to crime just like other major cities. So many people I know in the burbs who used to come downtown will not do so any longer unless its daylight hours. Right or wrong thats their thoughts and decision. 20 years ago I used to visit after work and go to Studio 54 (I think thats the name). And walk by myself from ballpark garage. It was great. I would not do that now.

Eventually even Texas peeps will get tired of too much growth or the crime that comes with it and leave. Look at 2 other large states:

Nearly 700,000 more people moved out of California than moved in between April 2020 and July 2022. New York had a net exodus of 556,000 people during that period – LA Times

Where do those people go? They move to smaller places and turn them into big places and in some cases, ruin the new place way of life by mass in migration. OKC is growing too fast. Services can’t keep up. We need to slow down and have regular growth not hyper type. Otherwise what is the goal? To become Dallas? Why?

Try driving from far NW OKC to downtown daily. Its really bad (in comparision to here not to Dallas). Right now you have to dodge so many construction zones - and these are band aid things not real growth of roads that can’t handle the growth. It is flat out crazy how much is being built in NW OKC.

Losing our downtown to crime? LMAO

I am likely one of the few here that does not want to become Texas. My take has always been its close enough to travel on weekends and get your fix of anything then can come back here where its not so hustle bustle. I love it “here” and don’t want to become “there”. Why does a majority who post here want so much growth? Eventually you are not unique as a city and you will never compete with long established big cities. But look around at those big cities and they have issues.

Now we are losing our downtown to crime just like other major cities. So many people I know in the burbs who used to come downtown will not do so any longer unless its daylight hours. Right or wrong thats their thoughts and decision. 20 years ago I used to visit after work and go to Studio 54 (I think thats the name). And walk by myself from ballpark garage. It was great. I would not do that now.

Eventually even Texas peeps will get tired of too much growth or the crime that comes with it and leave. Look at 2 other large states:

Nearly 700,000 more people moved out of California than moved in between April 2020 and July 2022. New York had a net exodus of 556,000 people during that period – LA Times

Where do those people go? They move to smaller places and turn them into big places and in some cases, ruin the new place way of life by mass in migration. OKC is growing too fast. Services can’t keep up. We need to slow down and have regular growth not hyper type. Otherwise what is the goal? To become Dallas? Why?

Try driving from far NW OKC to downtown daily. Its really bad (in comparision to here not to Dallas). Right now you have to dodge so many construction zones - and these are band aid things not real growth of roads that can’t handle the growth. It is flat out crazy how much is being built in NW OKC.

I'm in my 60s, so let me gently say that I have noticed much of the fear of safety, etc. are really a natural function of getting older. There are many hangouts of my 30s that I no longer feel good about visiting. They haven't changed-I have.

I'm in my 60s, so let me gently say that I have noticed much of the fear of safety, etc. are really a natural function of getting older. There are many hangouts of my 30s that I no longer feel good about visiting. They haven't changed-I have.

Yep.

Downtown is only unsafe if you go to one of the notorious Bricktown bars (or a couple in Midtown) and stay until closing time and then get into a fight with drunk fools.

There is almost zero random violent crime, in 'urban' areas or elsewhere. What little there is occurs among people that know each other and/or enter into some sort of escalating confrontation.

Dob and Pete,
Thank you so much for your breaths of fresh air on the topic of crime and safety. While it is always wise to keep abreast of your surroundings, pearl clutching really only serves to cut off possible avenues of enjoyment out of your own life. Of course, if an urban area isn't your thing, it isn't your thing.

As to the post about growth, growth is generally good. Readers of this board probably tire of me using St. Louis as an example. But the St. Louis metro area grows at like 1 percent a decade. For all practical purposes, zero. Low levels of growth introduce a huge new set of problems for a city that OKC, thank God, does not have. Be happy with growth! Now, I do think OKC and many other places could grow in a much smarter way. The sprawl will be unsustainable eventually. OKC could double in population without growing a whole lot more in "developed land area." But that's another topic.

I'm in my 60s, so let me gently say that I have noticed much of the fear of safety, etc. are really a natural function of getting older. There are many hangouts of my 30s that I no longer feel good about visiting. They haven't changed-I have.

Man, this level of self-awareness and commentary is a breath of fresh air.

I agree with the overall concern about growth in the metro, especially given our lackluster public transit, education and healthcare systems. Up here in Deer Creek we can't build schools fast enough to keep up with folks moving in. It takes a lot of planning and foresight to grow "well" and I don't know if we have the leadership to do it, at least at the state level. Holt seems to understand the challenge at least.

That all being said, it's also a bit exciting to see what this city can become if things are managed well. So many opportunities for infill and vertical building to go along with our massive sprawl. OKC in 2050 will be fascinating to see.

Dob and Pete,
Thank you so much for your breaths of fresh air on the topic of crime and safety. While it is always wise to keep abreast of your surroundings, pearl clutching really only serves to cut off possible avenues of enjoyment out of your own life. Of course, if an urban area isn't your thing, it isn't your thing.
As to the post about growth, growth is generally good. Readers of this board probably tire of me using St. Louis as an example. But the St. Louis metro area grows at like 1 percent a decade. For all practical purposes, zero. Low levels of growth introduce a huge new set of problems for a city that OKC, thank God, does not have. Be happy with growth! Now, I do think OKC and many other places could grow in a much smarter way. The sprawl will be unsustainable eventually. OKC could double in population without growing a whole lot more in "developed land area." But that's another topic.

Love visiting St. Louis, don’t know it well enough to know those neighborhoods I should avoid. But I would love to have St.Louis’s food culture in OKC! Just check out Feast, and Sauce, two monthly food magazines.

Love visiting St. Louis, don’t know it well enough to know those neighborhoods I should avoid. But I would love to have St.Louis’s food culture in OKC! Just check out Feast, and Sauce, two monthly food magazines.

Indeed. There are things St. Louis struggles with, but an amazing restaurant culture us not one of them. I like to think I have my finger on the pulse, but periodically lists of new or award-winning restaurants will come out and I’ll realize I’ve been to only a tiny fraction of them. And they seem to debut new ones every week.