View Full Version : Kelly Ogle out of News 9



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kukblue1
01-19-2022, 01:17 PM
The Lost Ogle is reporting Kelly Ogle is out at news 9. I haven't watched the local news in a while. Has he been on a lot?

gopokes88
01-19-2022, 01:48 PM
that's wild

MagzOK
01-19-2022, 02:26 PM
For the last couple years, I've thought he was just awful on there. I've commented to friends that he often appears as if he's in pain while on the set, sort of hunched over, etc. Anyway, it'd be good to get some new blood in there.

OkiePoke
01-19-2022, 02:55 PM
So... What happened? Or are they just trying to get some youthful energy in there?

jn1780
01-19-2022, 03:30 PM
Maybe The Lost Ogle is looking to sale? Kelly Ogle is now officially The Lost Ogle.

Also, you start to wonder if trouble was brewing last year. That may not have been entirely his decision or he is just physically exhausted these days.
https://www.news9.com/story/6074c8c562fa9d0bbab92807/watch:-news-9s-kelly-ogle-makes-special-announcement

5alive
01-19-2022, 03:38 PM
NO insider knowledge, but, these kind of changes are often ratings driven.

Jersey Boss
01-19-2022, 04:59 PM
Long overdue, he just seems bitter. That's my 2 cents.

Bowser214
01-19-2022, 05:11 PM
Exactly! Seemed judgmental and pompous.

Ward
01-19-2022, 05:11 PM
He's doing his usual schtick on Ch 4 news right now.

So whats up with a lost ogle rumor?

HangryHippo
01-19-2022, 05:16 PM
He's doing his usual schtick on Ch 4 news right now.

So whats up with a lost ogle rumor?
Read the thread title and your post and try again.

Ward
01-19-2022, 05:23 PM
^^^^^ Kelly Ogle is at work right now on Ch 9 live right now, he's not gone.

Maybe he'll be gone soon. I don't know. But he's there now. And I read the Lost Ogle website posting alledging he was dumped earlier. Maybe, like a jilted boyfriend dumped by his girlfriend he's back now. I dunno. Perhaps there's the equivalent of a 2 week notice to quit, or be fired.

To me, when you're dumped, you're gone. Out the door. Keys taken away. Don't come back. Period. But maybe this is different.
You'll have to explain that one to me.

Nothing personal but I never cared for him, he just didn't have that warmth and likeability, at least to me.

They probably do need to bring in new talent.

My take on this, so far, is just unsubstantiated rumor.


It’s the end of an era in Oklahoma City TV news!

Although we’re still waiting for official confirmation, we’re hearing via the Ogle Mole Network that longtime News 9 evening anchor Kelly Ogle – son of Jack, brother of Kevin, uncle of Abigail, and a proud giver of his two cents – was alleged dumped by News 9 earlier this week, explaining his recent absence from that station’s 6pm and 10pm news broadcasts.

(Update: Since we’ve hit the publish button, some Ogle Mole dispatches are telling us Kelly may stay employed at the channel, but away from the anchor desk.

Bellaboo
01-19-2022, 07:45 PM
Kevin Ogle on 4 can't get the words out anymore either. Messing up all the time.

He will probably be next to go.

kukblue1
01-19-2022, 08:22 PM
https://twitter.com/TheLostOgle/status/1483970043364974592?s=20 But I talked to a friend tonight with real inside knowledge and he said he was pretty much out and it wasn't pretty how it went down.

Ward
01-19-2022, 08:36 PM
Now I see the muddy pic has been cleaned up a bit.

I kind of feel sorry for him, but I also think that at his age, and given the money he's made, it's time to retire and enjoy life while he still can before it's too late.

I know the person who is the HR head at Ch 9, but I don't know her that well to ask her, and I doubt she'd tell me much, if any at all, of the situation.

It's a dog eat dog world, and once you realize you're wearing Milk Bone underwear, things become much more clear.

soonerguru
01-19-2022, 10:13 PM
The Lost Ogle is reporting Kelly Ogle is out at news 9. I haven't watched the local news in a while. Has he been on a lot?

Never have been a fan of his. He can't help but let his Okie opinions misinform his reading of the news. I haven't watched that station in years. I made the mistake of watching News 9's embarrassing coverage of the George Floyd protests, with Jim Gardner calling my friends terrorists and members of Antifa, lol.

Martin
01-20-2022, 06:16 AM
Never have been a fan of his. He can't help but let his Okie opinions misinform his reading of the news. I haven't watched that station in years. I made the mistake of watching News 9's embarrassing coverage of the George Floyd protests, with Jim Gardner calling my friends terrorists and members of Antifa, lol.

not agreeing or disagreeing with your point, but kwtv won a regional emmy for their coverage. Watch | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=324137459433974)

Brett
01-20-2022, 07:14 AM
It seems to me that when Kelly Ogle fell in his garage, that was the beginning of the end. It also didn't look good when his niece Katelyn left KWTV for KFOR. The quality of news reporting at KWTV also has gone downhill (with the exception of Alex Cameron). Too many Tulsa/KOTV filler stories and not enough OKC reporting.

jn1780
01-20-2022, 08:16 AM
https://twitter.com/TheLostOgle/status/1483970043364974592?s=20 But I talked to a friend tonight with real inside knowledge and he said he was pretty much out and it wasn't pretty how it went down.

Yeah, I doubt he is going to be doing "special reports", he is pretty much gone. That's a force retirement, where they pretty much upset you so much you make the decision to quick.

Thatguy15
01-20-2022, 08:24 AM
Good ole Saint Fentanyl Floyd, the gift that keeps on giving

Pete
01-20-2022, 08:50 AM
It seems to me that when Kelly Ogle fell in his garage, that was the beginning of the end. It also didn't look good when his niece Katelyn left KWTV for KFOR. The quality of news reporting at KWTV also has gone downhill (with the exception of Alex Cameron). Too many Tulsa/KOTV filler stories and not enough OKC reporting.

They need to go back to reading OKCTalk content on the air, something they used to do a great deal of, and I've never spoken to them at all.

OkiePoke
01-20-2022, 09:18 AM
My biggest gripe about the local news is the follow up to any story is abysmal. Maybe 3% have an update.

Also, "Breaking -- Shooting in NW OKC" but the address is 301 N. Classen.

Pete
01-20-2022, 09:21 AM
You have to wonder how much longer local TV news will even be around.

As it is, most of the interest is driven by weather but that is mainly due to older people choosing to get their information that way. Obviously, that is changing like everything else in news delivery.

Zuplar
01-20-2022, 09:26 AM
You have to wonder how much longer local TV news will even be around.

As it is, most of the interest is driven by weather but that is mainly due to older people choosing to get their information that way. Obviously, that is changing like everything else in news delivery.

I guess this is why I've always supported News 9. They are the only locals left.

MagzOK
01-20-2022, 09:30 AM
You have to wonder how much longer local TV news will even be around.

As it is, most of the interest is driven by weather but that is mainly due to older people choosing to get their information that way. Obviously, that is changing like everything else in news delivery.

I think you're absolutely right, Pete. For me, local television news was already falling out of my grace before Gary England was let go, but at that point I was already skipping the news and changing it over at 10:17 at night when his segment came on. Now we never have it on. His successor comes across so arrogant on TV I can't stand it, and I don't want to have a stroke brought on by his severe weather coverage. But as for the news, and I don't care really for any of the other traditional news either. I'd probably tune in to Michael Armstrong if he were a chief, but I don't even care about traditional local weather coverage anymore. When any weather of importance comes on, I get my information from an online local source that is pretty good IMO.

Roger S
01-20-2022, 09:48 AM
As it is, most of the interest is driven by weather but that is mainly due to older people choosing to get their information that way. Obviously, that is changing like everything else in news delivery.

Ha! I'm older and I come to OKCTalk and use a couple of apps for weather.

gopokes88
01-20-2022, 09:58 AM
You have to wonder how much longer local TV news will even be around.

As it is, most of the interest is driven by weather but that is mainly due to older people choosing to get their information that way. Obviously, that is changing like everything else in news delivery.

With political ad spending rocketing they have a lot of runway left

oklip955
01-20-2022, 10:01 AM
If I remember correctly, back when covid first hit, one of the older Ogles came down with it. I thought it was him, I also thought that when he came back on the air he still looks sick and run down, like he never fully recovered from it. Someone with a better memory, please check and see if I am correct. If so, maybe this could be part of why he was shown the door. If you cannot do your job, then you dont have a job.

Richard at Remax
01-20-2022, 10:22 AM
In Your Corner on Channel 4 is really good at stories and subsequent follow up stories. If it weren't for that I probably wouldn't watch the news.

Zuplar
01-20-2022, 12:38 PM
In Your Corner on Channel 4 is really good at stories and subsequent follow up stories. If it weren't for that I probably wouldn't watch the news.

That segment has done good work, I just never have cared for the people they have doing this segment. Always seems like they are trying way to hard, but they do seem to be effective.

jn1780
01-20-2022, 01:28 PM
I think you're absolutely right, Pete. For me, local television news was already falling out of my grace before Gary England was let go, but at that point I was already skipping the news and changing it over at 10:17 at night when his segment came on. Now we never have it on. His successor comes across so arrogant on TV I can't stand it, and I don't want to have a stroke brought on by his severe weather coverage. But as for the news, and I don't care really for any of the other traditional news either. I'd probably tune in to Michael Armstrong if he were a chief, but I don't even care about traditional local weather coverage anymore. When any weather of importance comes on, I get my information from an online local source that is pretty good IMO.

Just wait until SpaceX makes a mobile version of Starlink terminals, pretty soon all these chasers/independent meteorologists will be able to transmit and receive data in real time and not to have to rely on choppy cell phone coverage when they are not in the city. Do viewers need to watch guys doom out on tv when they have a bunch of other people on the internet doing the same thing.

SoonerDave
01-20-2022, 06:48 PM
I was never a fan of Ogle, primarily in my two chance meetings with him in public spaces he was an absolute jerk. He would go out of his way to let you know how annoyed he was that he was recognized.

As for local news, Ch 9 is really the only option. The other stations simply parrot the news line of whatever big media outlet tells them to run. There's not much local journalism anymore.

cindycat
01-20-2022, 09:46 PM
He just announced, at the end of the 10PM news, that he won't be anchoring the news anymore. He said he's not retiring but nothing about what he will be doing. He said "It's not goodbye, It's 'See you soon'".

MagzOK
01-21-2022, 06:41 AM
I was never a fan of Ogle, primarily in my two chance meetings with him in public spaces he was an absolute jerk. He would go out of his way to let you know how annoyed he was that he was recognized.
.

I had the similar experiences a few times professionally back in the day. Each time I've been around him he was very pompous.

He "signed off" the desk last night, stating he's not retiring. It sounds to me that he still is under contract, but the company was ready for a change so they're letting him ride out his contract under a different assignment until it expires. Then he'll have a silent goodbye very reminiscent of Gary England.

KTB
01-21-2022, 03:11 PM
I was never a fan of Ogle, primarily in my two chance meetings with him in public spaces he was an absolute jerk. He would go out of his way to let you know how annoyed he was that he was recognized.


I had the similar experiences a few times professionally back in the day. Each time I've been around him he was very pompous.

I saw him once at the state fair. I was almost to the front of the cinnamon roll line of probably 40+ people. Ogle strolled straight to the front of the line and cut everyone to purchase a dozen. He just said he didn't have time to wait. Such an ass. They should have fired him 10 years ago. He can barely make it through a broadcast.

soonerguru
01-22-2022, 03:07 PM
not agreeing or disagreeing with your point, but kwtv won a regional emmy for their coverage. Watch | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=324137459433974)

Jim Gardner had to apologize for the numerous slanderous comments he made during the broadcast, some of which bordered on racism.

Jersey Boss
01-22-2022, 03:41 PM
Jim Gardner had to apologize for the numerous slanderous comments he made during the broadcast, some of which bordered on racism.

What's with that station? Last year we had insurection fanboy Alan Broerse fired after leaving sympathetic comments on the Canadian County Mountie facebook page.

Dob Hooligan
01-22-2022, 03:43 PM
Jim Gardner had to apologize for the numerous slanderous comments he made during the broadcast, some of which bordered on racism.

I recall he was suspended for a couple weeks, as well.

Bunty
01-22-2022, 11:23 PM
He just announced, at the end of the 10PM news, that he won't be anchoring the news anymore. He said he's not retiring but nothing about what he will be doing. He said "It's not goodbye, It's 'See you soon'".

Maybe channel 5 or 25 will want him.

Mott
01-23-2022, 06:55 AM
Maybe he will do podcasts with Louis Fowler on The Lost Ogle…..

wunderkind
01-23-2022, 07:12 AM
It always seems odd to me when 'famous' people are rude when recognized in public, given that, well, they are apt to be recognized. I wonder if it shows a truer glimpse of their particular personality. A few weeks back I saw Mike Turpen in public, and recognized him (I didn't speak, just noticed who he was) and he went out of his way to smile and say hello.

barrettd
01-23-2022, 09:04 AM
It always seems odd to me when 'famous' people are rude when recognized in public, given that, well, they are apt to be recognized. I wonder if it shows a truer glimpse of their particular personality. A few weeks back I saw Mike Turpen in public, and recognized him (I didn't speak, just noticed who he was) and he went out of his way to smile and say hello.

Depends on the scenario, of course, but I think people who are jerks and become famous enough to get recognized in public are just recognizable jerks, and same goes for people who are courteous and kind. Mike Turpen has always been very gracious any time I've interacted with him, and I'm nobody. Barry Switzer comes to mind, as well.

Bill Robertson
01-23-2022, 10:14 AM
Depends on the scenario, of course, but I think people who are jerks and become famous enough to get recognized in public are just recognizable jerks, and same goes for people who are courteous and kind. Mike Turpen has always been very gracious any time I've interacted with him, and I'm nobody. Barry Switzer comes to mind, as well.
I completely agree with Barry Switzer. I've ran into him a couple of times when out having a beer. He's been friendly and seems to love talking to anybody about OU football. One of my favorite subjects. I've also run into Chad Stevens that used to do car commercials a number of times. Every time he was a loud, pompous, obnoxious, a-hole.

HangryHippo
01-23-2022, 10:35 AM
I’ve run into Switzer a few times as well and every time he’s been gracious and very fun to talk to.

barrettd
01-23-2022, 11:17 AM
I had the opportunity to sit down with The King a few years ago, and I brought up some stuff he worked on with my dad (not related to football at all), and he remembered a bunch of stuff. For as many people as he meets and has met, to be able to at least make me feel like he and I connected on something is something I'll never forget. Billy Tubbs was at the same event, and he could not have been any nicer. Just a calm, cool, nice dude, and his son, Tommy, was terrific, as well.

Ward
01-23-2022, 11:40 AM
I completely agree with Barry Switzer. I've ran into him a couple of times when out having a beer. He's been friendly and seems to love talking to anybody about OU football. One of my favorite subjects. I've also run into Chad Stevens that used to do car commercials a number of times. Every time he was a loud, pompous, obnoxious, a-hole.

Wow Chad Stevens. I'd forgotten about him (thankfully so). I have family and friends who just adored him on the commercials, but not me. Nothing personal, I just didn't care for him. It's been years and years since he's been on tv, I think, and I haven't missed him at all. But, what is he up to nowadays?

Dob Hooligan
01-23-2022, 02:49 PM
A Mike Turpin story: In the mid 80s, I'm in my mid 20s working a blue collar job where I had my name on my uniform. Going to a lunch appointment, I am riding down the elevator in the Santa Fe Parking Garage with 2 suits (strangers), when on level 3, Mike Turpin (recognize him from TV) and another suit get on. Suits introduce to suits and I'm awkward stranger when, a few seconds later, Turpin glances at my uniform and says "Jeff, how you doing? Mike Turpin".

I have always voted for him since then.

barrettd
01-23-2022, 04:17 PM
A Mike Turpin story: In the mid 80s, I'm in my mid 20s working a blue collar job where I had my name on my uniform. Going to a lunch appointment, I am riding down the elevator in the Santa Fe Parking Garage with 2 suits (strangers), when on level 3, Mike Turpin (recognize him from TV) and another suit get on. Suits introduce to suits and I'm awkward stranger when, a few seconds later, Turpin glances at my uniform and says "Jeff, how you doing? Mike Turpin".

I have always voted for him since then.

Haha, just a random everyday elevator ride for him, but something you'll always remember. I love stuff like that.

Swake
01-23-2022, 04:47 PM
I have a Switzer story. I was in high school in Tulsa in the mid 80s at a football game walking the track between the home and visitor stands. Barry was walking the other way, waving and saying hi to students. He was there on a recruiting visit and seemed quite nice. What stuck with me was that he was wearing a full length mink duster coat.

I've run into him since when I lived in Norman, but I will never forget that coat.

Roger S
01-23-2022, 06:11 PM
I saw Barry at Tarahumara in Norman one evening and expected him to get the star treatment but he just ordered a drink and waited out on the patio with the rest of us for a table.

unfundedrick
01-23-2022, 08:28 PM
I saw Barry at Tarahumara in Norman one evening and expected him to get the star treatment but he just ordered a drink and waited out on the patio with the rest of us for a table.

Barry is not pretentious at all. The last time I saw him in person is on a flight from DFW to OKC. He was in coach class just a couple of rows in front of me. There is no doubt he could afford to buy out all of the first class seats if he wanted to.

barrettd
01-23-2022, 08:53 PM
Barry is not pretentious at all. The last time I saw him in person is on a flight from DFW to OKC. He was in coach class just a couple of rows in front of me. There is no doubt he could afford to buy out all of the first class seats if he wanted to.

I'm sure he could also make a call and have a private flight arranged, either on his own or from a friend. Who wouldn't let The King take their jet down to Dallas?

But, yeah, I get the feeling the guy genuinely likes normal people. Certainly one of the reasons he always recruited so well. He never, ever forgot his roots, and I've never, once, heard a story about him treating anyone other than kind. I mean, he's not Mother Teresa, but I think he's a good old living legend who enjoys being exactly that.

Ward
01-23-2022, 10:17 PM
I have a Switzer story. I was in high school in Tulsa in the mid 80s at a football game walking the track between the home and visitor stands. Barry was walking the other way, waving and saying hi to students. He was there on a recruiting visit and seemed quite nice. What stuck with me was that he was wearing a full length mink duster coat.

I've run into him since when I lived in Norman, but I will never forget that coat.

I remember vividly well back in 1982 when I was working for a luxury car dealership in the service dept. Barry came in wearing that full length fur coat, along with a small entourage. He got a brand new demo to drive every few months. He was turning in one and getting another. I looked at the car later, and let's just say it had some "interesting" interior damage. I had no idea, but one of the other guys said it looked to him like high heel marks in the headliner. I don't know, maybe that's just hear say. LOL.

Anyway, Barry is a heckuva nice guy, you be hard pressed to find better person.

I've met a number of politicians, shaked their hands, talked with them for a few minutes. ALL of them had the ability to make you feel like you're the only person around, they just bring you into their focus, and make you feel really good, and that you'll vote for them. IF they can't do this, they will not get elected or have much of a career as such. It's just the nature of the position. Same with many celebrities.

Swake
01-23-2022, 10:25 PM
Maybe my funniest kinda Oklahoma celeb story was taking my daughter to a college fair at TU when Danny Manning was Tulsa's coach. I went to KU so my daughter absolutely knows who he is. My first year at KU was 88, but I never met him at KU, but we did run across him at TU.

The fair was at The Reynolds Center, TU's basketball arena, walking in my daughter and I passed Danny and another man in a hallway. I said hi to Danny but my daughter, being a good Jayhawk child, started jumping up and down giggling. He stopped, broke out laughing, shook her hand and then patted her on the head and walked on. He never actually said anything because he was laughing so hard. She loves that story.

Ginkasa
01-24-2022, 07:22 AM
When I was a kid we were eating at Coach's in Norman. Barry Switzer was in the booth like caddy corner from us; slow night, might have just been us and Switzer that night at least in that section. I didn't (and probably still wouldn't) recognize him, but my dad did. But he didn't say anything or do anything except maybe do a double take the first time he saw Switzer in the booth just over. We just ate and had dinner as usual. When Switzer finished his meal he came over to us and thanked us for not making a big deal of him being there or disturbing his meal. Made a big impression on me.

Maybe due to this I'm really hesitant to judge anyone too harshly for an anecdotal 30 second interaction. Sure you can say famous should expect to be recognized and should be used to being hassled out in the public, but most of us can't and won't be able to relate to being hassled constantly in public. If I see someone well known in public I do what my dad did: make note and think "neat" but otherwise leave them alone.

jedicurt
01-24-2022, 08:27 AM
what really gets me about Barry is this. as a kid, and as an adult, i have never had anything but a good experience with Barry. My little brother actually was friends with one of his grandsons, and he always talked about how the family couldn't stand him and thought he was an absolute jerk. it's crazy how most of the time for people that is reversed, but i never heard his grandson have a nice thing to say about him, but also realized that i had actually had way more interactions with Barry than his grandson had.

barrettd
01-24-2022, 11:15 AM
When I was a kid we were eating at Coach's in Norman. Barry Switzer was in the booth like caddy corner from us; slow night, might have just been us and Switzer that night at least in that section. I didn't (and probably still wouldn't) recognize him, but my dad did. But he didn't say anything or do anything except maybe do a double take the first time he saw Switzer in the booth just over. We just ate and had dinner as usual. When Switzer finished his meal he came over to us and thanked us for not making a big deal of him being there or disturbing his meal. Made a big impression on me.

Maybe due to this I'm really hesitant to judge anyone too harshly for an anecdotal 30 second interaction. Sure you can say famous should expect to be recognized and should be used to being hassled out in the public, but most of us can't and won't be able to relate to being hassled constantly in public. If I see someone well known in public I do what my dad did: make note and think "neat" but otherwise leave them alone.

I totally agree, it would get really old having people recognize and stop you, etc. but then again if people are respectful I don't think most "famous" people mind. Everyone also has bad days, and I don't think anyone famous or otherwise can be expected to be polite 100% of the time. What a weird society where people just crave information about celebrities that paparazzi and the like won't leave them alone.

soonerguru
01-24-2022, 04:42 PM
I totally agree, it would get really old having people recognize and stop you, etc. but then again if people are respectful I don't think most "famous" people mind. Everyone also has bad days, and I don't think anyone famous or otherwise can be expected to be polite 100% of the time. What a weird society where people just crave information about celebrities that paparazzi and the like won't leave them alone.

I've known Barry since I was in fifth grade in Norman. He was a part time coach on one of my athletic teams. One day, Sports Illustrated showed up and started photographing our practice! I was pretty bummed to not be one of the kids in the photo spread.

I ended up on a couple of other teams he coached and he was by far the best coach I had when I played athletics. I became friends with his eldest son and have many great Barry Switzer memories. I also have some funny ones I would be happy to share one on one but will leave off the board!

One I will share is I was with a new friend from middle school; I think it was the fall of 1983. We went to the Town Tavern on Campus Corner. We walked in and Barry's son said, "Hey ....., come sit with us" to me and my friend. So, we had breakfast with Barry and his son at Town Tavern and my friend was completely awestruck by the encounter.

He can be an absolute riot in person and it's true that he would give someone the shirt off his back, and also true he has never forgotten his roots.

He should have had three other national championships at least in addition to the ones he won, and if he had, would be in the discussion with Saban and the Bear for the greatest college football coach of all time. He still belongs in the conversation.

barrettd
01-24-2022, 07:12 PM
Definitely in the conversation for greatest of his era, and then some. In my mind, there's Saban and everyone else.

mugofbeer
01-24-2022, 07:47 PM
I've known Barry since I was in fifth grade in Norman. He was a part time coach on one of my athletic teams. One day, Sports Illustrated showed up and started photographing our practice! I was pretty bummed to not be one of the kids in the photo spread.

I ended up on a couple of other teams he coached and he was by far the best coach I had when I played athletics. I became friends with his eldest son and have many great Barry Switzer memories. I also have some funny ones I would be happy to share one on one but will leave off the board!

One I will share is I was with a new friend from middle school; I think it was the fall of 1983. We went to the Town Tavern on Campus Corner. We walked in and Barry's son said, "Hey ....., come sit with us" to me and my friend. So, we had breakfast with Barry and his son at Town Tavern and my friend was completely awestruck by the encounter.

He can be an absolute riot in person and it's true that he would give someone the shirt off his back, and also true he has never forgotten his roots.

He should have had three other national championships at least in addition to the ones he won, and if he had, would be in the discussion with Saban and the Bear for the greatest college football coach of all time. He still belongs in the conversation.

I see him as the greatest recruiter of all time and a racial barrier-buster. He wasva great coach based on talent but not the GOAT.

BTW, he is a very genuine, nice person the two times l got to meet him.

Jeremy Martin
01-24-2022, 09:32 PM
I love how this got turned into a Switzer thread. Not mad, I like the direction this went.