View Full Version : A suggestion for the old Ford dealership lot



Oski
09-08-2020, 10:37 PM
Scissortail Park has been a hit so far, but mostly on late weekends. We’d want to bring a lot more people downtown to hang out, to work, and to live. To do so, we need more shops, more restaurants, more options for people to spend money, but those guys won’t come if there aren’t enough people to support their business, so it’s pretty much a Catch 22. A solution is bringing them downtown all at once, and a mixed use like this one in Rotterdam, Netherlands can do that. It has apartments, condos, food stalls, shops, and underground parking garage and supermarket (yes, I won’t live in downtown until there’s one), all under one roof.

This building will attract local residents and out of state visitors (to the new convention center) alike, encourage companies to move downtown and conferences to choose OKC, and make huge impact on the city’s economy, I can imagine it would lead to the development of many other projects nearby. Aesthetically, it will serve as a super cool background for Scissortail Park’ main stage, a very Instagrammable spot, and that's worth a lot nowadays, not many hotels or office buildings can match.

I wish OKC developers will build something that creative someday.
https://youtu.be/v6WDkOYE2lc

https://api.mvrdv.boerdamdns.nl/media/uploads/project/115/9054dc48-49e5-4530-a387-166eeefbc60d.jpg?width=1920

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a0/fd/ca/a0fdca99e9784f9ebbae7b984071c73d.jpg

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.expatrepublic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2Frotterdam_markthal .jpg&f=1&nofb=1

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.cntraveler.com%2Fphotos%2F5 b0db98f770afd3ced9d51c2%2F4%3A5%2Fw_767%2Cc_limit% 2FMarkthal-Rotterdam-_GettyImages-717153383.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

Plutonic Panda
09-08-2020, 10:38 PM
That would be pretty cool!

SEMIweather
09-08-2020, 11:56 PM
Not gonna lie, this has me wanting to visit Rotterdam once the world opens back up lol

Oski
09-09-2020, 03:48 AM
Not gonna lie, this has me wanting to visit Rotterdam once the world opens back up lol

So do I, or you can take a virtual tour, and this is just normal day over there.


https://youtu.be/o7BWYclkA1g

ChrisHayes
09-09-2020, 03:57 AM
That is pretty cool, but at the same time it seems like it would be a huge obstruction between Myriad Gardens and Scissortail Park. I want something mixed use that would allow easy traversing between the parks, instead of an obstruction.

FighttheGoodFight
09-09-2020, 07:35 AM
Wow that is wild. I have been there! Went to NL in 2018 and happened upon this while spending a half day there before continuing on to France. The Netherlands is on another level of engineering. It was a lovely country.

GoGators
09-09-2020, 07:45 AM
Visited this a few years ago. The Markthal is absolutely wild and i loved it. I've dreamed about something similar in OKC ever since.

16423

Martin
09-09-2020, 10:33 AM
i would love to see a large indoor market like that succeed somewhere near the core.

but maybe its architecture shouldn't remind me so much of this... : )
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/SK9wVxNcnhZNJ6WmGUNvr1YX86j-evEhLRAsuE8QbTqnTexEJ4RtDCMZcEu76wd91vq82QUlJoUDBY pQ7Cezg_shh4tAUqfI8_hEigVFFMzZHufYwdZrfysDoG05qF8V fP3wq74RuqE

Celebrator
09-09-2020, 10:44 AM
I would love to see something like this, wow. I mean iconic and practical--would be perfect for that spot. And I know there was some concern about obstruction, but this is sort of a funnel/pass-through between parks--I don't think that would be a problem.

d-usa
09-09-2020, 12:13 PM
At this point, I would be happy if we settle with making all the roads through there pedestrian only. Throw a mixed use small tower on each block with a plaza in the middle. Shops and restaurants on ground floors that can have seating extend out into the pedestrian streets. Heck, one block can even be the parking garage for the other three towers with fancy bridges connecting them all.

Oski
09-09-2020, 12:22 PM
At this point, I would be happy if we settle with making all the roads through there pedestrian only. Throw a mixed use small tower on each block with a plaza in the middle. Shops and restaurants on ground floors that can have seating extend out into the pedestrian streets. Heck, one block can even be the parking garage for the other three towers with fancy bridges connecting them all.

A market hall will suit OKC weather better, IMO.

d-usa
09-09-2020, 12:51 PM
There are lots of better options, but I’ve also seen us come up with a lot of worse crap. I’m rooting for better than this, but if that’s what we settle with I would be pleasantly surprised.

Oski
09-09-2020, 01:34 PM
There are lots of better options, but I’ve also seen us come up with a lot of worse crap. I’m rooting for better than this, but if that’s what we settle with I would be pleasantly surprised.

Can you please point me to the better options you just mentioned, I’m really interested in studying unique urban projects around the world. Thanks!

jdizzle
09-09-2020, 01:57 PM
This would be a waste of prime residential and mixed-use space. It needs to be a tower, or multiple towers. Something like this doesn't fit Oklahoma City, at least not the design.

Sooner.Arch
09-09-2020, 02:22 PM
16428
Three years ago I made the same comment This would be amazing! Something sculptural with a residential component.

GoGators
09-09-2020, 02:23 PM
This would be a waste of prime residential and mixed-use space. It needs to be a tower, or multiple towers. Something like this doesn't fit Oklahoma City, at least not the design.

It is a massive 12 story building that has 230 residential units, a full service grocery store, office space, 1,200 car underground parking garage, (plus a bicycle parking garage) and 50,000 sq ft of retail with room for 100 vendors. Plus along the sides of the building there are separate retail and restaurants spaces along on the entire ground floor. It is literally the definition of mixed use.

If OKC got something close to even half of that scale it would be a complete game changer for the core.

Oski
09-10-2020, 10:01 AM
I agree. A vibrant gathering place is always better than empty skyscrapers and surface parking lots As they are right now. European cities don’t have that many “multiple towers”, but that doesn’t stop them from being beautiful. A beautiful city is a city full of people walking, biking, or interacting with others, our streets are pretty much empty most of the time.

GoGators
09-10-2020, 10:40 AM
Rotterdam is interesting to compare to OKC. Although from very different circumstances, (Urban Renewal vs the Nazi Luftwaffe) Both cities had their urban cores decimated in the mid 20th century and had to basically start over from scratch.

Rotterdam is great example that sound urban design can be implemented and thrives in a post car world.

Oski
09-11-2020, 08:58 AM
Rotterdam is great example that sound urban design can be implemented and thrives in a post car world.

I also love Copenhagen. I wish our city management and developers take a good look at Copenhagen and apply some of their great ideas to OKC. Quite a great city to live in.

shawnw
09-11-2020, 09:04 AM
If you like Copenhagen, join ULI book club next week for Copenhagenize.

https://oklahoma.uli.org/events/detail/76DD5DCB-0618-43EE-9FAB-FF6B2D29BF15/

jdizzle
09-11-2020, 09:06 AM
I also love Copenhagen. I wish our city management and developers take a good look at Copenhagen and apply some of their great ideas to OKC. Quite a great city to live in.

Our developers here are dirt poor, financially. See Strawberry Fields. We have no developers with both money AND imagination in OKC, and none from out of state want to develop anything here.

Rover
09-11-2020, 10:09 AM
Our developers here are dirt poor, financially. See Strawberry Fields. We have no developers with both money AND imagination in OKC, and none from out of state want to develop anything here.

I disagree. The Humphreys Company has raised a ton of money for RE development. And, they have vision. But, they are smart and patient. They won't do deals just to have cool projects. There has to be a net positive financial. No pie in the sky.

Pete
09-11-2020, 10:21 AM
Bob Howard and Hall Capital are the owners of this property and the former is a billionaire and the latter has similar resources.

Howard is behind MIdtown Renaissance which has completed a dozen very high-quality and expensive developments. And the Halls developed 21c, Jones Assembly and West Village.

Plenty of money and very high standards from both partners, it's just a matter of timing for this property.

TheTravellers
09-11-2020, 10:39 AM
Bob Howard and Hall Capital are the owners of this property and the former is a billionaire and the latter has similar resources.

Howard is behind MIdtown Renaissance which has completed a dozen very high-quality and expensive developments. And the Halls developed 21c, Jones Assembly and West Village.

Plenty of money and very high standards from both partners, it's just a matter of timing for this property.

Would it be true to say that for every Bob Howard, there's a Rick Dowell, and for every Hall Capital, there's a Pat Salame? Or do we have more capable developers than we do deficient ones or vice versa? I've never really known an overview of how all the main players here fit into "good, bad, or indifferent" categories.

Pete
09-11-2020, 10:53 AM
We have a ton of great developers: the afore-mentioned Hall Capital and MidtownR but also Pivot Project, Richard McKown, Jeff Struble (tons of Plaza stuff), Gary Brooks, Andy Burnett & Mark Beffort, Blair Humphreys, Marva Ellard, Jeff Johnson and a bunch of others.

Combined, they've done hundreds of great projects.

And no offense to the Strawberry Fields group which has invested millions with great intentions.


I've said it before, but those who are investing in our community (not only money, but tons of blood, sweat and tears) deserve our respect.

When something fails or has to be scaled back, I can assure you the owners/developers are devastated far beyond the annoyance any of us may feel.


There is a huge difference between being paid by an employer and striking out on your own at tremendous risk and without a large group of locals doing just that, we wouldn't have the huge majority of what most of us consider to be the best things about OKC.

Pete
09-11-2020, 10:58 AM
BTW, the only reason I sometimes sound critical or point out the negative is that the other primary reporter covering these subjects is completely unethical, serving as nothing more than PR for developers who generally play him like a fiddle.

There has to be legitimate reporting of all sides, not just becoming 'friends' with those you are charged with covering, and merely printing the information they feed you or that that is lifted from OKCTalk.

TheTravellers
09-11-2020, 11:00 AM
^^^ Thanks for that list, knew about some of them, but not others, good info to have...

riflesforwatie
09-11-2020, 03:46 PM
That is pretty cool, but at the same time it seems like it would be a huge obstruction between Myriad Gardens and Scissortail Park. I want something mixed use that would allow easy traversing between the parks, instead of an obstruction.

I think you're on the right track to be worried about obstruction between the parks, but I would go even further. The best use of this property is as public parkland connecting Scissortail Park and the Myriad Gardens. It might not even need to go all the way from Robinson to Hudson, but instead from halfway between Hudson and Harvey to halfway between Robinson and Harvey, with mixed use on the remaining outer sides. I know there was lots of public discussion regarding the siting of the Convention Center and the entire Core to Shore "project" (which means there was even more discussion behind the scenes) but I am not sure we came out of that with the best possible location for everything. These blocks are probably way too valuable now for "more park!" to ever happen, thanks to the $715 million I-40 relocation, the $139 million Scissortail Park, and the $288 million MAPS 3 Convention Center. Maybe there could be a land swap between the Cox Convention Center and the dealership lot? If office towers are the goal the Cox land is way better for that anyway.

I think it's easy to forget just how staggering an amount of empty (or essentially empty) land we're dealing with downtown. Office towers would also work on the old Stage Center site. Or from Walker to Hudson and Reno to the Boulevard. (Speaking of the Boulevard, that turkey is going to separate Scissortail from the rest of Downtown no matter what happens to the Ford dealership site.) And then what do we do with the Producers Co-op, Strawberry Fields, etc? Sure, we've already built a lot of park, but it really seems like a missed opportunity not to connect these two amazing natural resources we've just built and put all the buildings somewhere else.

SEMIweather
09-11-2020, 05:10 PM
I think you're on the right track to be worried about obstruction between the parks, but I would go even further. The best use of this property is as public parkland connecting Scissortail Park and the Myriad Gardens. It might not even need to go all the way from Robinson to Hudson, but instead from halfway between Hudson and Harvey to halfway between Robinson and Harvey, with mixed use on the remaining outer sides. I know there was lots of public discussion regarding the siting of the Convention Center and the entire Core to Shore "project" (which means there was even more discussion behind the scenes) but I am not sure we came out of that with the best possible location for everything. These blocks are probably way too valuable now for "more park!" to ever happen, thanks to the $715 million I-40 relocation, the $139 million Scissortail Park, and the $288 million MAPS 3 Convention Center. Maybe there could be a land swap between the Cox Convention Center and the dealership lot? If office towers are the goal the Cox land is way better for that anyway.

I think it's easy to forget just how staggering an amount of empty (or essentially empty) land we're dealing with downtown. Office towers would also work on the old Stage Center site. Or from Walker to Hudson and Reno to the Boulevard. (Speaking of the Boulevard, that turkey is going to separate Scissortail from the rest of Downtown no matter what happens to the Ford dealership site.) And then what do we do with the Producers Co-op, Strawberry Fields, etc? Sure, we've already built a lot of park, but it really seems like a missed opportunity not to connect these two amazing natural resources we've just built and put all the buildings somewhere else.

I forget, have office towers been proposed for the old Stage Center site in the past? ;)

d-usa
09-11-2020, 08:21 PM
I don’t think we need to have a park to connect the park to another park.

But again, I would love to see Harvey closed down and turning it into a wide public pedestrian plaza from the Gardens to the Park, with a giant fountain in the middle, room for big patios for the restaurants and shops lining the plaza.

Don’t we need an Oklahoma City Plaza on Oklahoma City Blvd?

Oski
09-14-2020, 01:13 PM
A did a bit of (poor) photoshopping to see how everything may look like, with permission from Alonzo Adams Photography, check him out, he shot beautiful photos of OKC landscapes. https://www.instagram.com/alonzoadamsphoto/

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fI2R2lqdR7xNv-HgolX7xqY0YwkRmO5L/view?usp=sharing

ChrisHayes
09-16-2020, 04:37 PM
A did a bit of (poor) photoshopping to see how everything may look like, with permission from Alonzo Adams Photography, check him out, he shot beautiful photos of OKC landscapes. https://www.instagram.com/alonzoadamsphoto/

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fI2R2lqdR7xNv-HgolX7xqY0YwkRmO5L/view?usp=sharing

I have to admit, that looks pretty cool! It's just a shame the Ford lot isn't deep enough between the parks to incorporate something like that where the proportions would be correct. It would need to be west to east rather than north to south. Still, something that acts as a gateway between the parks would be ideal.

Canoe
09-17-2020, 05:40 AM
We have a ton of great developers: the afore-mentioned Hall Capital and MidtownR but also Pivot Project, Richard McKown, Jeff Struble (tons of Plaza stuff), Gary Brooks, Andy Burnett & Mark Beffort, Blair Humphreys, Marva Ellard, Jeff Johnson and a bunch of others.

Combined, they've done hundreds of great projects.

And no offense to the Strawberry Fields group which has invested millions with great intentions.


I've said it before, but those who are investing in our community (not only money, but tons of blood, sweat and tears) deserve our respect.

When something fails or has to be scaled back, I can assure you the owners/developers are devastated far beyond the annoyance any of us may feel.


There is a huge difference between being paid by an employer and striking out on your own at tremendous risk and without a large group of locals doing just that, we wouldn't have the huge majority of what most of us consider to be the best things about OKC.

All things considered, I would rather have local developers.