If the situation is still this dire at the start of the school year, and schools are pressured to reopen, I think you can pretty much count on significant pushback and/or wildcat strikes from the teachers.

Amid the drumbeat of rapidly rising numbers, some perspective is warranted.

Only 11 states have lower per capita infection rates than Oklahoma.

So, that's good news.


The bad news of course is that our growth rate is quite high and we are surrounded by heavily infected states, most notably Texas.

If the situation is still this dire at the start of the school year, and schools are pressured to reopen, I think you can pretty much count on significant pushback and/or wildcat strikes from the teachers.

This is going to be quite the showdown, especially since teachers are so highly unionized.

I could be misunderstanding your post (and forgive me if so), but you seem to have reduced my comment to requiring "evidence," including future evidence. All I requested is that we provide each other "evidence OR explanation to support their stance" so we can learn from each other. The original post was a reasonable contribution to the discussion about something that could happen. The response offered neither evidence nor reason for shooting down the other post. That was my complaint. I'd love to learn why soonerguru thinks the post was unreasonable or incorrect, but they offered nothing. It's intellectually (and literally) lazy.

I'm not trying to follow the rules of a debate team competition. Just asking that posters offer some evidence OR reasoning for shooting down someone else's post.



I appreciate you saying that. You don't owe me an apology and there's no hard feelings. All I was trying to point out is that I wanted to understand you're reasoning. As I've said before, I love this forum when I learn so I try to fight for that spirit in it. :)

No problem at all. I have no problem acknowledging that my post was a little terse, and I have no problem apologizing when I should, as I should have and did in this case. There are a handful of posters here who rarely offer evidence or vetted, up-to-date facts, continue to recycle outmoded information, and instead offer little more than sarcastic invective, sophistic "what aboutism" and little else. Whatever I do here I do not want to join that chorus.

To clarify, I overreacted because there seemed to be unwarranted hopefulness in C_M's post suggesting seasonally derived behavioral changes leading to a reduction in transmissions, when we have yet to see evidence that seasonality has any impact in reducing transmissions in our state. People are either going to do the simple things outlined to reduce transmissions or they won't, regardless of weather and regardless if they are indoors or outdoors, and that isn't likely to change until state and / or local government intervenes.

Hate to say it but I see a lot of colleges push for in class. As funding at a state level has dried up they have to have bodies in seats and on campus to survive. Not the mention the businesses around Norman and Stillwater (maybe to a lesser degree Edmond) need that revenue to keep going.

The businesses may want the revenue but ultimately they won't get it, regardless of government policy, until the virus is under control. Just like the businesses in OKC that we are seeing, there will be waves of them having to shut down to control outbreaks among their staffs. The smart play from day one has not changed: 1. Get the virus under control. 2. Get the virus under control, and 3. Get the virus under control. Once achieved, then institute common sense measures to keep it under control, such as mask and distancing policy.

Anyone clamoring for business openings before getting the virus under control ignored the first commandment. So, in the US, most states just said, "screw it, we're opening" for purely political reasons and without regard to any benchmarks being met. Then, they have weak-kneed leaders leaders who are refusing to do the common sense measures.

I see continued failure.

I'm pretty sure he is trolling.

I would like to know if we have turned into a third world nation that imprisons the entire family for the faults of one member. Why you are disrespecting me is unclear.



STAY SAFE WEAR MASKS

If I remember right I heard Stitt say specifically last week that he won’t shut things down again. So just as a matter of pride or whatever the right word might be I don’t think he will unless it gets pretty cold in hell.

Stitt is going to let Oklahomans die for the sake of pride, or politics, or whatever is going through his head. At this rate he is going to easily take the mantle of worst recent Oklahoma governor from Mary Fallin.

The businesses may want the revenue but ultimately they won't get it, regardless of government policy, until the virus is under control. Just like the businesses in OKC that we are seeing, there will be waves of them having to shut down to control outbreaks among their staffs. The smart play from day one has not changed: 1. Get the virus under control. 2. Get the virus under control, and 3. Get the virus under control. Once achieved, then institute common sense measures to keep it under control, such as mask and distancing policy.

Anyone clamoring for business openings before getting the virus under control ignored the first commandment. So, in the US, most states just said, "screw it, we're opening" for purely political reasons and without regard to any benchmarks being met. Then, they have weak-kneed leaders leaders who are refusing to do the common sense measures.

I see continued failure.

*And* dead people. :(

We've currently moved our Nonesuch reservation twice, we're now at the end of Sept., hopefully things will be better by then. I've moved my dental cleaning and yearly GP checkup twice now too. We won't eat inside a restaurant until things are more under control. So yeah, "open it and they will come" just isn't the way it is right now (for lots and lots of people).

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/battling-new-wave-of-virus-australia-puts-city-of-melbourne-under-lockdown/ Melbourne going into Lockdown. Much like the many parts of the world. Minus the United States of course. Ours wasn't long enough. Now we are at the point of no return.

Okay, I understand you. I don't think the idea it could be season was without proof though. There was some evidence from other viruses, but the counter evidence was stronger. The idea the virus was going to die out with heat seemed more like wishful thinking than anything to me. People were gravitating to the possibilities and evidence they wanted to be true.And I understand your point also. But while other viruses seem to die out during summer. This virus seems to want to prove that it’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen before.

And I understand your point also. But while other viruses seem to die out during summer. This virus seems to want to prove that it’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen before.

And that is very, very scary.

And I understand your point also. But while other viruses seem to die out during summer. This virus seems to want to prove that it’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen before.

But it is either weaker, or we have gotten better at treating it. Either way is a plus. But yes, we need to get better at containing it.

But it is either weaker, or we have gotten better at treating it. Either way is a plus. But yes, we need to get better at containing it.

Or, we are just experiencing a somewhat expected delay in a surge of hospitalizations and deaths, as both are starting to trend up.

Okies are freaking hard headed but they aren’t that different than people elsewhere. I would propose a $400 fine to start, the same penalty you receive for simple marijuana possession. Most would follow it, and certainly a ton more that are now.

To your point, EVEN BRAUM’s employees were suddenly masked now that we have a law in OKC, so I disagree entirely with your premise. Even if we only got 80% compliance, that would be much more effective than what we are doing now.

Instead of a fine, I would impose a more egalitarian approach. Community service of 40 hours at a public hospital for starters.

Instead of a fine, I would impose a more egalitarian approach. Community service of 40 hours at a public hospital for starters.

Yeah, but then you are asking the person to potentially be exposed to the CV.

I would vote for a $3,000 fine, which is equivalent to the fines charged in South Korea.

It’s just unfortunate that we have a bunch of Sissy Republicans running this GD state. They have no interest in fighting this.

I’ve always known I was very non-political but I didn’t realize to what extent until the mask wearing = political point of view war started. I just don’t get why the two sides of the mask debate should be connected to political view. I completely get that to many people they are but they shouldn’t be.

I made an interesting observation while studying the New York City data. I looked only at their curves because my time to look at this stuff is limited at the moment, and they have the most complete cycle in the us. We all talk about the lag time between cases and deaths. Their peak case count only lagged behind their peak death counts by a little less than a week. I’m curious if that holds true for other areas around that same time.

We haven’t hit our peak case count yet, but our deaths really haven’t started ticking up on a similar path to case counts (exponential) like it did in nyc. If you use the same trends as nyc, we should have significantly higher deaths by now. Perhaps, the strides we’re making really are having a noticeable effect?

I made an interesting observation while studying the New York City data. I looked only at their curves because my time to look at this stuff is limited at the moment, and they have the most complete cycle in the us. We all talk about the lag time between cases and deaths. Their peak case count only lagged behind their peak death counts by a little less than a week. I’m curious if that holds true for other areas around that same time.

We haven’t hit our peak case count yet, but our deaths really haven’t started ticking up on a similar path to case counts (exponential) like it did in nyc. If you use the same trends as nyc, we should have significantly higher deaths by now. Perhaps, the strides we’re making really are having a noticeable effect?I keep reading posts that state long lag times, a few weeks, between confirmed tests and deaths in those cases that are fatal. The Health Dept Epidemiology Reports have the median time from confirmed positive to death as 11 days.

I just looked at Italy’s data, and it shows similar trends to that described above. Their total cases peaked sometime in early April and their deaths peaked around mid-April. The interesting thing about the death curve is that it really ramped up about a week after the first cases started rolling in. The death curve didn’t stay flat either. It really ramped up quickly. I’m trying to look for any ray of positivity right now, and the best that I can find is that our growth rates look nothing like NYC and Italy early on. I’m not saying they won’t ramp up, but maybe we’ll flatten the death curve a bit with our current knowledge.

The caveat with comparing directly to NYC and Italy is the relative proportion of older folks impacted early on in this disease. Clearly, our current case counts are affecting a younger class therefore the death trends should be different.

I made an interesting observation while studying the New York City data. I looked only at their curves because my time to look at this stuff is limited at the moment, and they have the most complete cycle in the us. We all talk about the lag time between cases and deaths. Their peak case count only lagged behind their peak death counts by a little less than a week. I’m curious if that holds true for other areas around that same time.

We haven’t hit our peak case count yet, but our deaths really haven’t started ticking up on a similar path to case counts (exponential) like it did in nyc. If you use the same trends as nyc, we should have significantly higher deaths by now. Perhaps, the strides we’re making really are having a noticeable effect?

Without looking at the underlying data, I wonder if it’s a matter of us improving access to testing compared to earlier in the year. When testing was limited, the only people that got tested were people who were already pretty ill and or in the hospital. If you are tested at that point, you might be closer to death already.

Now we are testing more, and we are testing earlier. So if we are able to test people prior to being sick enough to qualify for testing in March, the lag time between test and hospital/death might be increasing.

But again, without baseline data that’s just a guess on my part.

Proposed amendments are being voted on first. Actual ordinance still not voted on yet. Stay tuned
After second reading ordinance passes 8-1. Scanlon voted no. Emergency provision passes. Mandate expires 11.30.29
This is leadership. Pay attention Governor Stitt.

But it is either weaker, or we have gotten better at treating it. Either way is a plus. But yes, we need to get better at containing it.

There is no solid evidence yet that there is a weaker version of the virus in the U.S. The only consensus difference seems to be that is spread easier. From what I've read, the U.S. has only had the version of the virus that mutated in Italy by way of China. So, any changes since it's been in the U.S. are likely due to other factors (e.g., improved treatments).

I’ve always known I was very non-political but I didn’t realize to what extent until the mask wearing = political point of view war started. I just don’t get why the two sides of the mask debate should be connected to political view. I completely get that to many people they are but they shouldn’t be.

Polls show that most people agree with you, but there is little doubt that (a) the President has politicized the issue to his base and (b) the anti-vaxxer YouTube conspiracy theorists have more influence than they should (largely due to social media algorithms that reward outrageous and extreme claims). I'd argue that the former is the bigger influence. But, yes, there is absolutely no reason this should be a partisan issue.

Yeah, but then you are asking the person to potentially be exposed to the CV.

I would vote for a $3,000 fine, which is equivalent to the fines charged in South Korea.

It’s just unfortunate that we have a bunch of Sissy Republicans running this GD state. They have no interest in fighting this.
Holy political statement

I made an interesting observation while studying the New York City data. I looked only at their curves because my time to look at this stuff is limited at the moment, and they have the most complete cycle in the us. We all talk about the lag time between cases and deaths. Their peak case count only lagged behind their peak death counts by a little less than a week. I’m curious if that holds true for other areas around that same time.

We haven’t hit our peak case count yet, but our deaths really haven’t started ticking up on a similar path to case counts (exponential) like it did in nyc. If you use the same trends as nyc, we should have significantly higher deaths by now. Perhaps, the strides we’re making really are having a noticeable effect?

Hospitalizations lag new cases. Deaths lag hospitalizations.

The U.S. surpassed 60,000 new cases for the first time yesterday.

There were also close to 1,000 deaths, as fatalities and hospitalizations are starting to trend up.

And all this with schools closed for many months now.

Better have the schools open this Fall. All I’m saying.

Right now I think we will see about 240,000 deaths by the end of the year.

Just frustrating. We see from other countries that there is a solution to bend the numbers but we think we know best.

Better have the schools open this Fall. All I’m saying.

The question isn't "should we open schools". Everyone should want schools to re open.

The question is "What do we do to keep the schools open?". If you open them in AZ, you are going to have to probably end up shutting them down. Staff will get sick. It's inevitable.

Better have the schools open this Fall. All I’m saying.

We're not doing a great job now of making that a feasible reality.

Better have the schools open this Fall. All I’m saying.

Why are you in a hurry to have your children infected? To open school whilst we still do not have sufficient testing in place will be criminally negligent While the school children may be less effected by the virus, they will surely pass it on to their parent, grandparents and teachers.



STAY SAFE WEAR MASKS

The irony of all this is that many are clamoring for the 'freedom' and 'right' to go where they want; to reopen churches and bars and schools and sports.

But very few are willing to make the small adjustments now to make those things possible in the near future.

The irony of all this is that many are clamoring for the 'freedom' and 'right' to go where they want; to reopen churches and bars and schools and sports.

But very few are willing to make the small adjustments now to make those things possible in the near future.

It's American exceptionalism and hyper selfishness. It will be the downfall of the country if it continues at the level where everything is decided through a political lens. The country threw out a president the last time their leader asked them to make a sacrifice.

I don’t want anybody to get sick I promise you that, but for the sake of the kids psychological well being this needs to happen. They need to be around kids their own age so they learn how to work through problems and socialize and to grow. You cannot do that if you’re not around the same age of people. The school districts should be on top of this, how to wear a mask how to wash/sanitize hands in classroom.

The school issue is definitely the most torn on any issue I've been so far. There is so much positive & negative that will come from sending kids to school this fall. I'm not sure how any side can ignore both. I'm not sure what the solution is, don't really think there is one.

I wonder if there is some way that kids can go to school in shifts to cut down on class room size. Kind of like the Kindergarten morning/noon schedule.

Also, I know in middle school high school most students have their own schedules were they rotate to different classrooms. I wonder if they could make sure all kids stayed in the same groups while they rotated. That might help slow some of the spread if they aren't around as many kids.

The bottom line is that many, many families rely on schools as daycare.

This is particularly true of the working class.

The bottom line is that many, many families rely on schools as daycare.

This is particularly true of the working class.

Agreed. Something I really admire about Ivanka is her push for affordable childcare and paid maternity leave. Childcare will soon be the biggest expense in my budget. I'm not sure how less fortunate families make it work.

Agreed. Something I really admire about Ivanka is her push for affordable childcare and paid maternity leave. Childcare will soon be the biggest expense in my budget. I'm not sure how less fortunate families make it work.

It's a lot like Healthcare. You can't offshore the labor, the regulations continue to grow more complex, and everyone wants the best for their children -- hence it becomes less affordable.

Agreed. Something I really admire about Ivanka is her push for affordable childcare and paid maternity leave. Childcare will soon be the biggest expense in my budget. I'm not sure how less fortunate families make it work.

If you can even find a responsible daycare facility.

Many of the working-class leave it to extended family or an older sibling to help fill in the gaps. Summers are just to get through one way or another while they wait for school to start again.

It's a lot like Healthcare. You can't offshore the labor, the regulations continue to grow more complex, and everyone wants the best for their children -- hence it becomes less affordable.

Other countries seem to have it figured out on both fronts so I'm sure there is some improvement to be made.

Other countries seem to have it figured out on both fronts so I'm sure there is some improvement to be made.

It is conservatives in congress and business lobbying which has thwarted this for years. I have yet to see any leadership on the topic from the people that matter and could make changes.

The bottom line is that many, many families rely on schools as daycare.

This is particularly true of the working class.

That is true, however, without sufficient testing in place the schools will be a petri dish spreading the virus though out the community. Since is has been six months since the initial outbreak and we still do not have adequate testing, I do not see how we can reopen schools safely. At a bare minimum, we need to follow the suggestion that Ed Shadid posted upthread, either yesterday or the day prior, wherein we test not only for temperature, but a scratch and sniff test be administered (I believe he noted that 80% of those infected lose their sense of smell) and a blood/oxygen sensor check. And of course, all teachers and students (after a certain age) need to wear masks and all activities that can (ie Gym Class) should be held outside in fresh air.


BE SAFE WEAR MASKS

That is true, however, without sufficient testing in place the schools will be a petri dish spreading the virus though out the community. Since is has been six months since the initial outbreak and we still do not have adequate testing, I do not see how we can reopen schools safely. At a bare minimum, we need to follow the suggestion that Ed Shadid posted upthread, either yesterday or the day prior, wherein we test not only for temperature, but a scratch and sniff test be administered (I believe he noted that 80% of those infected lose their sense of smell) and a blood/oxygen sensor check. And of course, all teachers and students (after a certain age) need to wear masks and all activities that can (ie Gym Class) should be held outside in fresh air.


BE SAFE WEAR MASKS

This should spark the long debate on class sizes, and how there are too many kids in a single class due to budget cuts over the years. Class size and space will be one of the most important factor going forward.

The school issue is definitely the most torn on any issue I've been so far. There is so much positive & negative that will come from sending kids to school this fall. I'm not sure how any side can ignore both. I'm not sure what the solution is, don't really think there is one.

I wonder if there is some way that kids can go to school in shifts to cut down on class room size. Kind of like the Kindergarten morning/noon schedule.

Also, I know in middle school high school most students have their own schedules were they rotate to different classrooms. I wonder if they could make sure all kids stayed in the same groups while they rotated. That might help slow some of the spread if they aren't around as many kids.

At my mother's elementary school a new principle is taking over this fall. This principle has decided that 4th and 5th grade classes should also move around for certain subjects throughout the day, so they'll be switching around classrooms (all at the same time in the same crowded hallway) 4 times a day. This is against the advice of the teachers, who are pretty upset about it, and a lot of the parents. They're taking absolutely no special precautions at this point and their plan for opening school back up is just a "hope it all works out". This is a smaller district, but it's just on the edge of the metro and it's not that small. It doesn't give me much hope for this fall.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating that schools should reopen for in-class instruction.

Merely pointing out that if they don't, there will be a massive burden on those who rely on schools to look after their kids during the day.

It's not just annoyance at having to deal with them or lack of socialization, there are millions of families that will be economically devastated.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating that schools should reopen for in-class instruction.

Merely pointing out that if they don't, there will be a massive burden on those who rely on schools to look after their kids during the day.

It's not just annoyance at having to deal with them or lack of socialization, there are millions of families that will be economically devastated.

I'm with you Pete. This is absolutely the hardest situation to navigate so far with the virus.

At my mother's elementary school a new principle is taking over this fall. This principle has decided that 4th and 5th grade classes should also move around for certain subjects throughout the day, so they'll be switching around classrooms (all at the same time in the same crowded hallway) 4 times a day. This is against the advice of the teachers, who are pretty upset about it, and a lot of the parents. They're taking absolutely no special precautions at this point and their plan for opening school back up is just a "hope it all works out". This is a smaller district, but it's just on the edge of the metro and it's not that small. It doesn't give me much hope for this fall.

Ridiculous. It wouldn't even be that hard to implement. Especially since schools are supposed to be led by people teaching learning to our students. SMH.

Where is the leadership on schools or for that matter, much of anything regarding how we deal with this virus?

It's just "SCHOOLS MUST REOPEN" but then there is no real plan or guidance. It was largely the same for economic reopening. Even with provided guidelines they were almost universally ignored with no consequences.

Every single school and business is facing incredible challenges and everyone understands and wants to move forward, but we are failing terribly as a rich country with almost unlimited resources while everyone else seems to have put this under control months ago (except Brazil but only because they have taken the same irresponsible approach).


I don't care how you spin this, we are in a horrible position and with school and cooler months looming, what evidence is there of improvement?

If you stand back from this, it's nothing short of catastrophic and things have to change and fast.

Where is the leadership on schools or for that matter, much of anything regarding how we deal with this virus?

It's just "SCHOOLS MUST REOPEN" but then there is no real plan or guidance. It was largely the same for economic reopening. Even with provided guidelines they were almost universally ignored with no consequences.

Every single school and business is facing incredible challenges and everyone understands and wants to move forward, but we are failing terribly as a rich country with almost unlimited resources while everyone else seems to have put this under control months ago (except Brazil but only because they have taken the same irresponsible approach).


I don't care how you spin this, we are in a horrible position and with school and cooler months looming, what evidence is there of improvement?

If you stand back from this, it's nothing short of catastrophic and things have to change and fast.

I think this should come from the school superintendent. That being said if you have ever been to or been a part of a rural school district good luck telling them to do anything. You might get some structure in Edmond, OKC, Norman or Moore but in Skiatook or Gotebo... not happening. They are going to do the same they always have.

At the very least I feel masks should be required for all students and teachers (maybe above a certain grade level), but somehow I doubt even that will happen in many districts. At the risk of putting words in their mouth, my spouse did not sign up to be a frontline worker trapped indoors with thousands of unmasked potential disease vectors for 8 hours a day, every day, and I feel like few are considering the risks to teachers and support staff in their calculations. I know something needs to be figured out to allow schools to reopen for myriad reasons, but I'm getting increasingly freaked out about the risk they're about to assume (and bring home with them).

Timely and related to LocoAko's post above.

Yes, You Can Dine At Reopened Restaurants. But Is It Ethical? (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/restaurants-open-dine-in-ethical-coronavirus_l_5f03278fc5b612083c5f44b4)

"“This is a difficult question,” said ethicist Randy Cohen. “People who go out to eat potentially put the servers at risk, but people have to live and people need jobs.” Cohen, the author of “Be Good: How to Navigate the Ethics of Everything,” acknowledged that well-intentioned people may wish to support restaurateurs. And he refused to scapegoat the people he’s seen crowded into dining rooms and bars.

“What this shows is the utter futility of individual solutions,” he said. “We set national standards for workplace safety — even without the pandemic — so to leave this question to some individual who wants to go out and get a pizza seems like madness to me.”"

"While Cohen acknowledged the potential value of supporting local businesses in a cratering economy, he compared indoor pandemic dining to buying T-shirts made in a sweatshop; if you do it, you’re accepting that your own pleasure could cause harm to others. He also dismissed the possibility of buying your way out of guilt by leaving an extra big tip. “It does not get you off the hook,” he said. “It’s not a fee you pay to engage in antisocial behavior.”

For Cohen, the image of diners tipping big to offset endangering servers evoked scenes in Paris just before guillotines came rumbling out: “It’s like some 18th-century person with a nice powdered wig, getting into a coach and tossing some money.”"

Not strictly OKC, but here's an article that includes a link to download the spreadsheet of who received PPP funds in OK in excess of $150,000.

https://nondoc.com/2020/07/07/oklahoma-ppp-money/

Not strictly OKC, but here's an article that includes a link to download the spreadsheet of who received PPP funds in OK in excess of $150,000.

https://nondoc.com/2020/07/07/oklahoma-ppp-money/
I've been looking for something like this. Thanks for sharing!

I don’t want anybody to get sick I promise you that, but for the sake of the kids psychological well being this needs to happen. They need to be around kids their own age so they learn how to work through problems and socialize and to grow. You cannot do that if you’re not around the same age of people. The school districts should be on top of this, how to wear a mask how to wash/sanitize hands in classroom.

I have a teacher in my family who would be forced to enter that virus sponge every day. Our schools are filthy on a good day. There were rats at Classen SAS. Schools will be death traps for faculty and staff.

People are being delusional right now because they have refused to take this seriously, but suddenly want everything to go back to “normal.” It ain’t happening in this state in this country any time soon because people are just too stupid and selfish to do the right thing and our president issues medical disinformation on a daily basis.

The discussions regarding returning to school amount to posturing. I cannot imagine the lawsuits that will ensue if they are dumb enough to go through with reopening.

673 today.

Yes, 673 new cases and 3 more deaths.

Cumulative hospitalizations went up 63.

Not a good trend...
16223

What was the highest number of hospitalizations this spring?

I could see many teachers refusing to come back. I know most need the money, but I would believe that a fair amount of teachers have a two income household and figure they're better off roughing it on one income for a school year than potentially getting Covid. This of course further will contribute to class size, diminish education, and require substitutes and emergency certifications. Great! I'm so tired if winning.

Regarding schools reopening:

https://oklahoman.com/article/feed/10067012/trump-threatens-to-cut-federal-aid-if-students-dont-reopen