View Full Version : Is Gentrification Really Bad?



Plutonic Panda
08-10-2019, 11:49 AM
Maybe not?


Gentrification, that once-wonky, now common concept, is a term freighted with moral urgency, resentment, and guilt, because almost nobody in a high-cost city can avoid it. You’re either suffering its effects or inflicting them, often both at the same time. Unless you leave town altogether — as hundreds of thousands of people of all income brackets do every year — saying good-bye to one neighborhood makes you a newcomer in another. At its most basic, gentrification is what happens when newcomers to a neighborhood arrive with more income or education than those who already live there. At its most politically charged, it’s treated as a form of colonialism, ethnic cleansing, even genocide. Yet gentrification’s status as a great urban evil, a ravager of lives and destroyer of communities, is based as much on faith as on fact. Most scholarly research on the topic compares snapshots of cities and neighborhoods at different times but loses track of what happens to the actual people who live there.

Now, a pair of studies has used Census micro-data and Medicaid records to track specific residents of both gentrifying and non-gentrifying neighborhoods — where they live, where their children go to school, when they move, and where they go. The researchers come up with some startling findings. In a paper published by the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia, Quentin Brummet and Davin Reed say that urbanites move all the time, for countless reasons, and that gentrification has scant impact on that constant flow. Those who stay put as a neighborhood grows more affluent often see their quality of life rise and their children enjoy more opportunities. Those who leave rarely do worse.

In a separate study at NYU by Kacie Dragan, Ingrid Ellen, and Sherry A. Glied, published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, the researchers used Medicaid records to track thousands of children from address to address, between 2009 to 2015, a period of boiling gentrification. They found that schoolkids who lived in neighborhoods that saw an influx of college graduates didn’t move away more often than their peers in less fluid areas. Taken together, the papers suggest that gentrification’s upsides for longtime residents not only exist but go a long way toward mitigating the pain it causes. Citing previous research, Brummet and Reed say that “exposure to higher-income neighborhoods has important benefits for low-income residents, such as improving the mental and physical health of adults and increasing the long-term educational attainment and earning of children,” Brummet and Reed assert.

- http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/study-gentrification-doesnt-force-out-low-income-residents.html

brian72
08-11-2019, 08:21 AM
what the

Plutonic Panda
08-11-2019, 08:29 AM
what theMaybe not prevalent in OKC, but in many major cities gentrification is frowned upon by many as negatively impacting the lower class, causing homelessness, and displacing long time area residents.

kevin lee
08-11-2019, 10:36 AM
You must be careful when you base an opinion on so little information. If the article said hundreds of studies then you might have something. But two studies is not enough collected data. For every scenario there are millions of branches off of it. On top of that there are millions of scenarios. Then you get into who done the research. Only being two studies is a red flag for sure. Was the studies sponsored? Is there a major donor affiliated somehow? You can do the same research, with the same variables but have totally different outcomes simply by adding or subtracting a few years. You can do it by changing the age group criteria. There's many ways you can influence the outcome of any study. I know we want to believe these studies aren't biased, but in today's world that isn't the case.

Plutonic Panda
08-11-2019, 10:38 AM
Of course these are all great questions to ask and my stance is that I support gentrification and that has nothing to do with this article. I’ve always supported it and will continue to do so though I do think some developers can be greedy, they have to make money too.

BDP
08-12-2019, 03:19 PM
The problem is with framing it as "Gentrification: Yay! or Nay!"

I mean, I know that's how internet discussions work, but the article is way more nuanced and balanced than that. It acknowledges the problems with gentrification and the pain it can cause. The conclusion is really more about how the short term benefits of gentrification often dissipate over time and that efforts to mitigate the negative effects have had the unintended effect of tempering those benefits in some cases or even compounding the problems.


In the short term, gentrification makes neighborhoods more, not less, economically diverse and more racially integrated. The problem is that over time, those advantages dissipate, though not uniformly, and temporarily mixed neighborhoods become homogeneous again, and each new population in turn defends the turf it colonized. Diversity, not preservation, should be the goal.

Most of the time it's about execution. Areas experience the effects of gentrification differently and, obviously, individuals within those communities are affected differently.

Mel
08-13-2019, 05:17 AM
It's rough when your property taxes shoot up each year and your income does not follow.

brian72
08-13-2019, 03:14 PM
It's rough when your property taxes shoot up each year and your income does not follow.

My brother you speak the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!

brian72
08-13-2019, 03:14 PM
It's rough when your property taxes shoot up each year and your income does not follow.

My brother you speak the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!

EBAH
08-13-2019, 03:39 PM
lol "I support Gentrification"

Plutonic Panda
08-13-2019, 03:43 PM
lol "I support Gentrification"
what a stupid comment. Maybe provide something of value that adds to conversation next time.

EBAH
08-13-2019, 04:25 PM
what a stupid comment. Maybe provide something of value that adds to conversation next time.

Why make some elaborate comment to a trash statement. Is urban re-development good? It can be. Is beautification and streetscaping good? also can be. But gentrification is specifically a term used to describe wealthier blocks of people moving capital and themselves in to working class or lower income neighborhoods to specifically increase property values to generate wealth. It breaks up cultures and forces out long time residents. No, it isn't "good" you might as well just say "being rich and white is good". The study in this article has it's points, but yes gentrification DOES force out residents that can't afford the neighborhood anymore, and YES it happens here which is why many of my close friends are being pushed further and further west and away from their service jobs in the urban core, and YES it is caused by blockbusting real estate developers. Is it good for the city at large? perhaps, but to say "I like gentrification" is just a tone deaf insensitive thing that only a wealthier white man could say, and it's stupid.

Plutonic Panda
08-13-2019, 04:34 PM
Why make some elaborate comment to a trash statement. Is urban re-development good? It can be. Is beautification and streetscaping good? also can be. But gentrification is specifically a term used to describe wealthier blocks of people moving capital and themselves in to working class or lower income neighborhoods to specifically increase property values to generate wealth. It breaks up cultures and forces out long time residents. No, it isn't "good" you might as well just say "being rich and white is good". The study in this article has it's points, but yes gentrification DOES force out residents that can't afford the neighborhood anymore, and YES it happens here which is why many of my close friends are being pushed further and further west and away from their service jobs in the urban core, and YES it is caused by blockbusting real estate developers. Is it good for the city at large? perhaps, but to say "I like gentrification" is just a tone deaf insensitive thing that only a wealthier white man could say, and it's stupid.
To your points, perhaps I should have been more clear. The revitalization of districts has been branded gentrification as to play the race card, which you have shown to be true, in order to further push back against it.

Developers: Hey, we're taking a bunch of older buildings and restoring them to their former glory.

Idiots: RACIST RACIST RACIST

More idiots: Let's call it gentrification so we can add more stupid terms to our arsenal like hate facts and environmental racism. No doubt you would use terms like that. I'll take a step out and make that assumption.

Spare me the crap.

What urban redevelopment do you consider good and what isn't? Making hypothetical and vague statements left open to interpretation is better than my "trash statements" how? What do you consider gentrification? Is a portion of town that was already "rich and white" and redeveloped not gentrification because the horrible white man was already there? Or what about a district that had minorities but they could no longer afford the demand that existed for renovated units so they were pushed out by lack of money and somehow racism is the culprit again? Or what about areas that experience "gentrification" and still have a healthy multicultural makeup; are those redeveloped areas not considered gentrification?

So to make sure I understand your position correctly, gentrification is a fancy word for "racist development" and anyone that supports what you define as gentrification is a racist? Or maybe I am misunderstanding you.

Plutonic Panda
08-13-2019, 04:43 PM
To be completely honest, I was unaware that the word gentrification is actually used as a term to displace poorer people. So as such and I will admit when I am wrong, I don't support gentrification. I support what development would be considered gentrification but by that definition accounts for such a large portion of development how do you plan to oppose that or how can you support new development?


the process of repairing and rebuilding homes and businesses in a deteriorating area (such as an urban neighborhood) accompanied by an influx of middle-class or affluent people and that often results in the displacement of earlier, usually poorer residents

- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gentrification

no mentioning of minorities but by your account minorities are poor so if you view them as that way like Biden than I guess your analysis would be correct.

Another interpretation:


Gentrification. It’s one of those words that gets thrown around in the media and casual conversation. It’s a diagnosis slapped onto the opening of a funky coffee shop or the closing of a well-loved store. It can mean whole communities displaced, significant racial change, and increased homelessness.

But what exactly is gentrification? And is it always a bad thing?

A definition of gentrification:

Gentrification is the phenomenon of affluent folks moving into less wealthy neighborhoods, renovating homes and attracting new businesses. In the process, property values increase, rents go up, and poorer neighborhood residents are displaced.

The term is defined by a significant demographic shift — an increase in the number of affluent residents in a nabe and a decrease in the number of poorer residents.

Or, as summed-up by the Centers for Disease Control: “Gentrification is often defined as the transformation of neighborhoods from low value to high value.”

Again no mention of race here but hey I guess if we look and spin things hard enough we can make anything racist!

https://www.brownstoner.com/brooklyn-life/what-is-gentrification-definition-causes-effects/

PS, no doubt are POC are adversely affected but lets stop parading around a pointing finger and accusing others of making statements you consider to be trash because you consider something racist that isn't. I am the furthest thing from racist and it sh!t like that which pushes me away from democrats.

Midtowner
08-13-2019, 07:26 PM
Gentrification is more a force of nature than a system of oppression. It's not a system. Are developers, whose entire existence depends on buying low and selling high supposed to just stop what they do? It's the bulls and the bears, not systemic racism.

hoya
08-13-2019, 09:58 PM
If white people move out of a neighborhood, it's White Flight, and that's bad.

If white people move into a neighborhood, it's Gentrification, and that's bad too.

:rolleyes:

Plutonic Panda
08-13-2019, 10:45 PM
I don’t want anyone to feel bad for me— I am not rich by any means and I’m facing homelessness in Los Angeles with the only outlet being a refuge in another state(Oklahoma) I do love but have no future in due to my career. I only say this to provide some insight and an alternative to the notion that those who support the revitalization of neighborhoods to what some might consider gentrification are wealthy white men is bullish!t. But yes I’m white, so I meet that criteria. The horror.

Mel
08-14-2019, 05:45 AM
I live in one of the older neighborhoods in Mustang. Many Farmers have sold out to developers. McMansion neighborhoods popping up everywhere. Newer Schools being built for the Children of these up and coming Parents. I'm 63 and on disability. House payment went up $100 due to new tax rate and escrow. It's scary when you get to the "Pills or Bills" plateau. Gentrification effects lower income people of all races.

Martin
08-14-2019, 07:16 AM
I live in one of the older neighborhoods in Mustang. Many Farmers have sold out to developers. McMansion neighborhoods popping up everywhere. Newer Schools being built for the Children of these up and coming Parents. I'm 63 and on disability. House payment went up $100 due to new tax rate and escrow. It's scary when you get to the "Pills or Bills" plateau. Gentrification effects lower income people of all races.

just in case you didn't already know, when you turn 65 you can apply to have the county assessor freeze your property's valuation.

hoya
08-14-2019, 10:59 AM
Poor people have little defense against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Anything that happens to them, from a car breaking down to a bus route being changed, can potentially cause great harm. A wealthy neighbor moves in next door? Well maybe your rent goes up. Or maybe the crappy little diner you used to enjoy is replaced by some trendy hipster restaurant that charges 5 times as much.

You can always point to a poor person who was harmed by something. The city changes a bus route? Here's a guy who was harmed by it. The city doesn't change a bus route? Here's a guy who was harmed by it. If you're a poor renter and suddenly your apartment doubles in price, it sucks but you have to move. But if you're a poor guy who actually owns his home, and your property value doubles? Well that's wonderful. Sell your house, make a big profit, and then move into a place that's better than where you started.

PhiAlpha
08-14-2019, 07:47 PM
Man I just loved all the inner city neighborhoods and districts when they were full of crack houses and abandoned buildings. Wish all that nasty gentrification hadn’t come along with all of its renovations and nice restaurants to ruin all the blight! I miss it so much! WHAT HAVE WE DONE?!?!?

PhiAlpha
08-14-2019, 07:50 PM
If white people move out of a neighborhood, it's White Flight, and that's bad.

If white people move into a neighborhood, it's Gentrification, and that's bad too.

:rolleyes:

Hahaha exactly.

Plutonic Panda
08-14-2019, 09:49 PM
man i just loved all the inner city neighborhoods and districts when they were full of crack houses and abandoned buildings. Wish all that nasty gentrification hadn’t come along with all of its renovations and nice restaurants to ruin all the blight! I miss it so much! What have we done?!?!?
racist!!!!!

In this day in age I have to add this /sarc

Mel
08-15-2019, 05:17 AM
just in case you didn't already know, when you turn 65 you can apply to have the county assessor freeze your property's valuation.

I did not know that. Thank you very much. I need to start looking into this.

PhiAlpha
08-16-2019, 01:36 PM
racist!!!!!

In this day in age I have to add this /sarc

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8IYcMLz5AS4/hqdefault.jpg

kevin lee
08-17-2019, 10:27 AM
This conversation got weird quick. That's what I get for clicking on old people's posts.

d-usa
08-17-2019, 11:07 AM
Gentrification doesn’t really have an inherently racial component, so the comments about race and stuff don’t do much other than show the racial stereotypes held by various posters.

In a nutshell all it means is “changing a neighborhood so that it caters to people with a higher income level”. This can happen in many ways: improving housing, removing multi-unit rental and converting it into single-unit rental stock, converting rental housing into owning housing, converting affordable shopping into upscale shopping, removing a grocery store and turning it into other businesses, removing affordable dining options in favor of upscale dining options, changing the type of workforce needed in the neighborhood, and so forth. It ends up driving up the cost to rent or own, and/or driving up the cost of living there by increasing the costs of groceries or removing opportunities for employment and now requiring transportation instead of having what you need in the neighborhood. This changes the demographic that can afford to live in the neighborhood based on income (poor people come in many colors) because the affordable housing stock gets depleted.

The other side of the coin is that doing nothing in a neighborhood is also bad and even poor neighborhoods are in need of attention. Sometimes the line between gentrification and improving neighborhoods for the people already living there ends up getting pretty blurry.

I think the difference between neighborhood vitalization and gentrification comes down to the attitude of the people making the changes. If developers or plans don’t care about the people already there and are not concerned about impacting them, it’s Gentrification. If people move into the neighborhood complaining about the poor people living in “their” new neighborhood and wanting them gone, it’s Gentrification. If developers add needed services, make needed improvements to infrastructure, and in the process make the neighborhood friendlier to people living there, it’s not gentrification even if it brings in new people and increases the cost a bit.

Intent is the main factor IMO. We shouldn’t encourage gentrification, but we also shouldn’t ignore revitalization because we fear gentrification either. It’s a balancing act.

Plutonic Panda
08-17-2019, 11:30 AM
This conversation got weird quick. That's what I get for clicking on old people's posts.
I'm in 25 and live in one of the most liberal neighborhoods in the country. Nice try.


Gentrification doesn’t really have an inherently racial component, so the comments about race and stuff don’t do much other than show the racial stereotypes held by various posters.

I completely agree.

kevin lee
08-17-2019, 01:23 PM
Well I guess you're weird for another reason and thank you.

Plutonic Panda
08-17-2019, 01:39 PM
Well I guess you're weird for another reason and thank you.
I am very weird but that isn't because I disagree with you. If you truly believe those that disagree with you are weird than I'd suggest looking in mirror and rethinking that concept.

kevin lee
08-17-2019, 03:54 PM
Well I did say for another reason. Everyone that disagrees with me isnt weird though. If that were the case then I would be weird too lol..

mugofbeer
08-18-2019, 03:52 PM
Why make some elaborate comment to a trash statement. Is urban re-development good? It can be. Is beautification and streetscaping good? also can be. But gentrification is specifically a term used to describe wealthier blocks of people moving capital and themselves in to working class or lower income neighborhoods to specifically increase property values to generate wealth. It breaks up cultures and forces out long time residents. No, it isn't "good" you might as well just say "being rich and white is good". The study in this article has it's points, but yes gentrification DOES force out residents that can't afford the neighborhood anymore, and YES it happens here which is why many of my close friends are being pushed further and further west and away from their service jobs in the urban core, and YES it is caused by blockbusting real estate developers. Is it good for the city at large? perhaps, but to say "I like gentrification" is just a tone deaf insensitive thing that only a wealthier white man could say, and it's stupid.

You make certain points which are valid but its rare for developers to be able to assemble large tracts of "blockbuster" properties in an area where there are many, if not dozens of property owners. The cause, here, is high inflow of new 20 - 40s who have good salaries. It's not neferious and it's not racist. It's a natural progression.

The larger developments have primarily been redevelopment of rail yards, warehouses or blocks of crap retail. Occasional residential has gone down for larger scale development but those are generally on major traffic arteries where single-family residential isn't really appropriate.

Here in Denver, the demand for inner city residential has been so high for so long, tear-downs and pop-tops are common. This does displace some less -wealthy residents. Denver has hundreds of small, older lower-rent apartment buildings in which rents have risen significantly. This definitely displaces lower-income folks.

As far as trying to inject race into this equation, grow up. There are a decent number of Asian, African American and Hispanic folks in this business and they are part of the process, too. Flips, rehabs and renovations are multi-racial.

In cities such as Denver, the answer is to require lower rent units in any large scale development. As far as single family homes, there is no good market derived answer because property values can't be controlled and property values dictate sales prices and rents. Only government can provide such a solution on a large scale and that has nearly always been a disaster.

Just as l have done twice in my life, people sometimes have to move away for economic reasons.

If you are talking about OKC, I'd like to see examples because housing is cheap and there is plenty of it available if someone is forced to move.

BDP
08-18-2019, 09:30 PM
Gentrification doesnÂ’t really have an inherently racial component, so the comments about race and stuff donÂ’t do much other than show the racial stereotypes held by various posters.

I just want to say that I do not think the OP, Platunic Panda, had any racial motivations in his original post, nor did he/she state any racially malignant ideas or even telegraph any, by stating his/her support for gentrification, even if I do think that's a weird thing to declare .

Also, I agree with you that the concept of gentrification is not inherently racially motivated. It's motivated by money, obviously. To be specific, real estate money and/or equity in that real estate. Buy low / sell, rent high. It's a simple... numbly simple, concept. The kind of BS you get in a microeconomics 101 class.

In general, though, the simple mechanism of gentrification is motivated by the idea that a neighborhood that has long been undesirable for investment, by time or circumstance, eventually becomes one worthy of investment, either by geography, or, most likely, by scarcity.

But the thing is, what makes a neighborhood ripe for this type of gentrification in America? It didn't happen yesterday, and it didn't happen in a vacuum. Laws, that is statutes, helped to create it. And, I hate to say it, but, in a lot of cases, they did so on a racial basis...

So, yeah, at face value in 2019, it definitely does not seem racial. But only if you know nothing about American history and who could own real estate and when.

Whether you know it or not, who could own real estate in America was, in fact, statutorily based on race for most of America's existence (you can look up the statutes).

So, yeah, the fundamental idea of gentrification, that is, investing in a down trodden neighborhood to elevate your return on that investment does not in any way sound like racism or make you a racist... but the history behind it says the practice of gentrification, as we know it today, is, in fact, the result of long standing racism.

And not the kind of racism you might see on YouTube today with people yelling at each other at Starbucks, but the systemic kind that actually matters. The kind that says you are no longer a slave, but you can not own property or accumulate wealth for decades... the same decades in which we can, because, well, why not?... well, that's rhetorical, except to those that understand the discussion.

That's basically how property statutes were written for over 200 years in this country. You can disagree with them, as I do, but that's how it is.

Gentrification can be a boon to some of these neighborhoods and it would be awesome if it played out that way. But gentrification is wholly driven by property owners.

Which is why gentrification is not racial, until you learn the racial qualifications long embedded in property ownership in this jurisdiction of the United States of America...

Plutonic Panda
08-19-2019, 12:37 PM
^^^ Thank you BDP. The point behind my post was to provide a report made contrary to popular opinion in major cities that gentrification is the devil and oddly enough I've noticed those living in gentrified areas like Highland and Echo Park love to hate on it. I have noticed especially in LA that the gentrified neighborhoods are ethnically diverse. I wanted no conversation about race as it affects all of us and there is no need to make divisive statements(referring to a few other posters).

mugofbeer
08-19-2019, 10:14 PM
In Denver, it's become a racial issue because an Ink Coffee shop putvout a sidewalk sign that read "proudly gentrifying the neighborhood." This angered all the usual race personalities - even the Mayor. Demands were being made that the coffee shop be closed and turned into a community center. The shop was picketed, calls for boycotts came, commissions were set up, programs were started. Redevelopment continues. As has been said, it's a simple buy low sell high equation. You can't stop it unless government buys the property and thats what Denver's Mayor is proposing.

checkthat
08-20-2019, 03:21 PM
Great post BDP. It was recently reported that Texas still has race based deed restrictions, although they are currently unenforceable. The below article, from three weeks ago, has a good bit of history:

Decades-Old Deed Restrictions on Race Still Found in Texas (https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Decades-Old-Deed-Restrictions-on-Race-Still-Found-in-Texas-513273811.html)


Though they have been unenforceable for generations, the impact of racial restrictions is still felt today. Nearly all communities protected by deed restrictions in the early 20th century excluded minorities, pushing black and Hispanic residents into neighborhoods without restrictions. As a result, many of the uses banned in a deed-restricted community -- industrial sites, liquor stores, multifamily homes -- could pop up at any time in the communities where minorities settled, often destabilizing the neighborhood or prompting sudden price swings -- in both directions.

While it may seem funny to say something like "hurr durr, white flight bad, but white gentrification bad too??" That betrays an ignorance of history and the reasons things are the way they are today. The government subsidized "white flight" to the suburbs while preventing others from taking advantage of similar opportunities through policies such as redlining and deed restrictions. It is no surprise that those who were allowed to generate wealth through home ownership are now able to use that wealth to gentrify the areas they once abandoned.

Here is a good read on the way official policies have led to our current environment:

The Color of Law (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten-history-of-how-our-government-segregated-america/)
A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America
By Richard Rothstein


In The Color of Law (published by Liveright in May 2017), Richard Rothstein argues with exacting precision and fascinating insight how segregation in America—the incessant kind that continues to dog our major cities and has contributed to so much recent social strife—is the byproduct of explicit government policies at the local, state, and federal levels.

Plutonic Panda
08-20-2019, 03:31 PM
It must be impossible for some people to not bring up race. Once again the post above me basically makes an argument the white man is bad and damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. It isn't funny and racism isn't funny. Though comments like that may be made in jest, there is a serious underlying tone. This isn't about denying history or ignoring it. This is about moving forward and not making every single issue known to man about race. Cars, cities, developments, wealth, global warming, transportation, government, technology, etc. it's all racist. Everything is racist. If you disagree you are racist.

PS, that post isn't directed at Check That as I don't know this person but rather the general underlying theme those who share sentiments in the post above seem to have based on my anecdotal accounts. The logic and rationalism seems to be thrown out the window at the drop of any probabilities that yesterdays racism problems are disappearing and today's issues,though absolutely influenced by the past, might be a result of something else other than racism.

mugofbeer
08-23-2019, 10:34 PM
The above posts you refer to bring up thoughts of recent history but the white flight of the 1960s is hardly ancient history and resulting changes have hardly become so entrenched as to become culturally significant.

Three generations after white flight, demographic changes are the cause of gentrification with the 20 - 50 year olds wanting to live close to "the action" and maybe get by without a car. Other influences in some cities are the gay community doing remodels, the TV craze of remodeling and a desire to NOT live in ticky-tacky houses that all look just the same. People desire the urban life which is a 180 degree change from the 1960s.

The exodus of whites from some areas or what caused liquor stores to be bunched in black neighborhoods in Texas in the 60s is irrelevant to gentrification. It is a problem of the 2010s and going forward and ITS a problem mostly in certain high cost cities. I don't think the issue is of much relevance in OKC due to low housing costs and an abundance of available land. The answer, in effected areas, is to require developers to include significant numbers of affordable housing units when redeveloping. You can't stop a natural migration without socialistic government intervention.