View Full Version : Paws For Maps 4



betts
08-05-2019, 06:02 PM
I posted a comment in the ‘Ideas For Maps’ thread a while back about including funding for a new animal shelter to replace our current shelter. Americans love their pets and spend hundreds of millions annually on their care and feeding. If we truly love animals, and all data says we do, it should hurt our hearts to see abandoned and unwanted pets living in overcrowded, outmoded conditions that make it more difficult to get them adopted, and that negatively affect their quality of life while they’re there.

I’d like to see all of us support funding for a new shelter. It’s the right thing to do. Given the amount of money they anticipate collecting for Maps4, the request for funds for a shelter is small - about 5 percent of total revenue. It’s equivalent to one Senior Wellness Center expenditure.

Have a look at the website and help support this worthy project.

pawsformaps4.com

betts
08-05-2019, 06:05 PM
Oh, and take a look at their video!

https://vimeo.com/351783380

dankrutka
08-05-2019, 06:08 PM
The first second the puppers and kitties popped on the screen I was convinced... give them all the MAPS money... and lost of pets. :p

Jeepnokc
08-05-2019, 07:43 PM
These people are doing great work. They have lowered OKC's kill rate which used to be sky high. They currently have a 85% live animal release rate and are trying to get it to 90%. The shelter is underfunded and outdated and the MAPS money would go a long way towards making us a no kill shelter,

Laramie
08-05-2019, 07:59 PM
Whatever they're asking for the shelter, $43 million? MAPS 4 should round the figure to $45 million, give them a cushion to work with for a sound structure 5x the current size; replace the pipes, sewer lines and electrical systems, salvage what you can of the old structures for future backup.

securityinfo
08-05-2019, 08:05 PM
This is a no brainer. Look at our Zoo. The recurring funding stream created a place for all. Let's do the same for the creatures we bred to give us good feels. Start with Paws 4 Maps 4. Cheap money when compared to what is spent across the board. They need a good PR firm to step in and steer the sentiment of the voter.

soonerguru
08-06-2019, 07:13 AM
Two paws up for this! I visited the shelter for the first time in years and I was struck by a few things: 1. Itís a smelly, depressing dump. It looks like something you would find in either a smaller city or a city that literally doesnít care about its animal population. 2. The people who work there clearly care about the animals and are working hard in a depressing facility in which a lot of animals have to be put down. 3. A really nice new one, able to meet demand, could actually become a destination for people, which would greatly increase adoptions.

BoulderSooner
08-06-2019, 09:11 AM
this is far to much money to spend on this

onthestrip
08-06-2019, 09:21 AM
this is far to much money to spend on this

I agree. $43 million for animal shelter is quite high.

Feels like this maps is just a money grab right now. Every special interest is throwing their ideas in the ring asking for a ton of money.

Bullbear
08-06-2019, 09:37 AM
I'm all for anything for pets!

Jeepnokc
08-06-2019, 10:06 AM
this is far to much money to spend on this

With respect, is your statement based on "just too much money for an animal shelter" or is it based on "this is too much money for what OKC needs for our current animal population and current standards for municipal shelters" I hope that makes sense.. basically, no one should spend $43 million on a shelter versus looking at this project and what they are proposing...$43 million is too much? Not trying to pick a fight but curious as to the reasoning behind your statement.

Jeepnokc
08-06-2019, 10:07 AM
From their website:

Shelters are uncommonly expensive buildings. Huge amounts of drainage, and air-handling systems. What are the two most-expensive rooms in a house? Kitchens and bathrooms. An animal shelter really is a series of rooms that serve as kitchens and bathrooms.
$500 to $600 per square foot is not uncommon.

Urban Pioneer
08-06-2019, 10:12 AM
this is far to much money to spend on this

I actually sat in on a Public Works meeting and watched them calculate the estimate for building/complex. The problem with animal shelters is all of the drainage, ventilation, and natural lighting requirements to do it right. It would be an absolute waste of tax payer money to try to renovate the existing building.

BoulderSooner
08-06-2019, 11:07 AM
With respect, is your statement based on "just too much money for an animal shelter" or is it based on "this is too much money for what OKC needs for our current animal population and current standards for municipal shelters" I hope that makes sense.. basically, no one should spend $43 million on a shelter versus looking at this project and what they are proposing...$43 million is too much? Not trying to pick a fight but curious as to the reasoning behind your statement.


From their website:

Shelters are uncommonly expensive buildings. Huge amounts of drainage, and air-handling systems. What are the two most-expensive rooms in a house? Kitchens and bathrooms. An animal shelter really is a series of rooms that serve as kitchens and bathrooms.
$500 to $600 per square foot is not uncommon.

thank you for the question it really did make me think about an answer ...

your second post is something i didn't know thank you for posting that and that puts the high cost in a better context ..

that being said i'm not sure this would be a good use of this level of funding vs what we could spend that 43 mil on (or lets say we give 23 mil for a shelter ) what could we spend the other 20 mil on that would effect a larger part of the pop or increase QoL is a better way ie sidewalks senior center parks ect ..

soonerguru
08-06-2019, 12:03 PM
The shelter can’t even be renovated for that amount. What we have barely functions as a shelter and wasn’t even built for that. It’s really not that much money for a core city service that isn’t being met. It’s similar to the price of ONE senior wellness center. Not trying to be argumentative.

I also don't understand your comment on the number of people this impacts. The animal shelter is, as stated above, a core city service that impacts every neighborhood in the city, Nichols Hills, Del City, and Valley Brook. It affects all of the animals in our city.

I respect if you have another opinion.

It would be helpful to watch the video to get a sense of this history here and the unmet need.

https://vimeo.com/351783380

emtefury
08-06-2019, 04:43 PM
My issue with spending on the animal shelter goes along with other government spending is we are subsidizing irresponsibly. Animal owners don’t want a dog, dump it and someone else will take care of my problem.

Getting off my soapbox, I understand the need and respect the people who work there. They and the animals deserve a better place.

betts
08-06-2019, 04:54 PM
My issue with spending on the animal shelter goes along with other government spending is we are subsidizing irresponsibly. Animal owners don’t want a dog, dump it and someone else will take care of my problem.

Getting off my soapbox, I understand the need and respect the people who work there. They and the animals deserve a better place.

While I see your point, irresponsible pet owners don’t really care whether we have a nice shelter. They’ll dump their pets in the street or at a substandard facility without a second thought. A new facility won’t make them more or less likely to become a responsible pet owner.

Like children, puppies and kittens don’t ask to be born, so we, as a society, have to do what is ethically right for them. I don’t see this as a sop to irresponsible pet owners, but rather, a statement that Oklahoma City cares for the unfortunate and unwanted, be they pets or people. It’s an ethical issue for me. That’s my opinion.

king183
08-06-2019, 05:08 PM
I agree. $43 million for animal shelter is quite high.

Feels like this maps is just a money grab right now. Every special interest is throwing their ideas in the ring asking for a ton of money.

The animal shelter isn't a special interest who is looking for a handout/taxpayer subsidy. It is an essential city service, and they are currently operating in what others have called substandard facilities--a description that is far too optimistic, in my opinion. It's a disaster of a facility: it puts public health at risk and it puts the animals and people who work there at risk.

This is the type of project that should be built with bonds, especially with interest rates as low as they are, but that doesn't appear to be a viable solution at this point, so the MAPS tax is an acceptable alternative. I'll strongly support the inclusion of this project if they don't come up with a bond financing alternative.

OKC Guy
08-06-2019, 05:18 PM
Charge pet owners an initial pet fee to own an animal. So the responsible ones will help subsidize those who don’t register but enough will and use this money to pay for shelters. Have an annual smaller renewal fee. So you pay a one time starter fee (higher cost) and an annual renewal fee. Same price regardless how many animals. List the type pets that need it (dogs/cats) but you only pay it once. So if you buy a dog in Jan you pay X and if you buy a cat in Jun no charge since you have a permit. Next Jan pay a smaller annual renewal fee. All can be done online.

This way pet owners are paying for pet problems.

TheTravellers
08-06-2019, 06:05 PM
Charge pet owners an initial pet fee to own an animal. So the responsible ones will help subsidize those who don’t register but enough will and use this money to pay for shelters. Have an annual smaller renewal fee. So you pay a one time starter fee (higher cost) and an annual renewal fee. Same price regardless how many animals. List the type pets that need it (dogs/cats) but you only pay it once. So if you buy a dog in Jan you pay X and if you buy a cat in Jun no charge since you have a permit. Next Jan pay a smaller annual renewal fee. All can be done online.

This way pet owners are paying for pet problems.

So if non-pet-owners don't have to pay for pet problems, then non-drivers don't have to pay for roads, people that don't have kids don't have to pay for schools, ad nauseum. That's not a good or right way of thinking about how civilization and a society works.

BTW, I fully support a new animal shelter in MAPS4. Cats and dogs seem to be looked upon more as just animals than pets (therefore treated worse) by a larger amount of people here than I've experienced in other places, so to me, a state-of-the-art animal shelter here is needed more than in other places I've lived.

OKC Guy
08-06-2019, 06:17 PM
So if non-pet-owners don't have to pay for pet problems, then non-drivers don't have to pay for roads, people that don't have kids don't have to pay for schools, ad nauseum. That's not a good or right way of thinking about how civilization and a society works.

BTW, I fully support a new animal shelter in MAPS4. Cats and dogs seem to be looked upon more as just animals than pets (therefore treated worse) by a larger amount of people here than I've experienced in other places, so to me, a state-of-the-art animal shelter here is needed more than in other places I've lived.

99% of people need cars thus roads. All food and goods are delivered on roads. Utilities under roads, electric along roads. They are a necessity. Pets are not.

Also Maps should be for major projects that are transformative.

Speaking of roads, I elect to pay a toll even though I can use alt roads. I choose to do so. Pet owners choose them. Maybe if paying a fee then enough money so those same owners won’t dump them knowing they can take to shelter paid for by pet owners. Pets are an option. Schools are mandatory. Roads are necessity.

I would bet most pet owners would gladly pay an extra fee to have a better shelter I know I would.

jn1780
08-06-2019, 08:07 PM
The stray dogs and cats will do their best to live and reproduce regardless if they are owned by a human( Probably survive by eating human garbage or small rodents.) Pet owners who adopted from a shelter or rescue are already doing a lot to help the problem. They provide a loving home and almost always pay the shot fees. Rescue groups also usually don't adopt out pets who haven't already been spayed or neutered. If you want to go after people causing over pet population go after the breeders and those who don't follow ther rules.

An inital pet fee would be a nightmare to enforce and would just drive the dishonest people away from shelters and rescue groups and known of the pets they get outside of these organizations will be neutered or spayed. But hey at least non-pet owners can avoid this particular tax and start planning out how to avoid paying a tax on a city jail because they don't commit crimes and don't intend to.

TheTravellers
08-06-2019, 08:37 PM
...

Also Maps should be for major projects that are transformative.

...

Um, yeah, like a new animal shelter which meets both of those criteria.

OKC Guy
08-06-2019, 09:35 PM
The stray dogs and cats will do their best to live and reproduce regardless if they are owned by a human( Probably survive by eating human garbage or small rodents.) Pet owners who adopted from a shelter or rescue are already doing a lot to help the problem. They provide a loving home and almost always pay the shot fees. Rescue groups also usually don't adopt out pets who haven't already been spayed or neutered. If you want to go after people causing over pet population go after the breeders and those who don't follow ther rules.

An inital pet fee would be a nightmare to enforce and would just drive the dishonest people away from shelters and rescue groups and known of the pets they get outside of these organizations will be neutered or spayed. But hey at least non-pet owners can avoid this particular tax and start planning out how to avoid paying a tax on a city jail because they don't commit crimes and don't intend to.

I’m for better shelters just not through MAPS is all. Its a pet project (no pun intended) and then everyone wants a pet project and if they don’t get it they get upset. It sets a bad precedence. MAPS honestly may have run its course already due to city not even knowing what we need in Aug and yet gonna scratch something together and vote in Dec?

We need to reserve MAPS for bigger projects and find a different method to fund shelter. I actually have stated several times doing a 10 year MAPS is bad due to many factors. Things change fast nowadays and locking into 10 years so fast shuts the door on anything else for the duration. Here it is Aug and we have no idea what we really need or want. A few months ago it was Aquarium. Now its animal shelter. Yet in Dec vote on a tax that we really are clueless what needs are? Do a 2 year MAPS for $200m then you can dial in in needs and roll out faster. Can adjust to changing city. Bricktown os almost built out and our city and growth patterns will change fast. We also need better transpo methods.

If we roll out a10 year tax on pet projects its gonna fail. Too many will not like something. Our needs are not as massive now as when MAPS started so tailor them down into smaller increments.

soonerguru
08-07-2019, 12:17 AM
I’m for better shelters just not through MAPS is all. Its a pet project (no pun intended) and then everyone wants a pet project and if they don’t get it they get upset. It sets a bad precedence. MAPS honestly may have run its course already due to city not even knowing what we need in Aug and yet gonna scratch something together and vote in Dec?

We need to reserve MAPS for bigger projects and find a different method to fund shelter. I actually have stated several times doing a 10 year MAPS is bad due to many factors. Things change fast nowadays and locking into 10 years so fast shuts the door on anything else for the duration. Here it is Aug and we have no idea what we really need or want. A few months ago it was Aquarium. Now its animal shelter. Yet in Dec vote on a tax that we really are clueless what needs are? Do a 2 year MAPS for $200m then you can dial in in needs and roll out faster. Can adjust to changing city. Bricktown os almost built out and our city and growth patterns will change fast. We also need better transpo methods.

If we roll out a10 year tax on pet projects its gonna fail. Too many will not like something. Our needs are not as massive now as when MAPS started so tailor them down into smaller increments.

Why?

OKC Guy
08-07-2019, 06:36 AM
Why?

Why not?

Urban Pioneer
08-07-2019, 06:59 AM
I’m for better shelters just not through MAPS is all. Its a pet project (no pun intended) and then everyone wants a pet project and if they don’t get it they get upset. It sets a bad precedence.

MAPS honestly may have run its course already due to city not even knowing what we need in Aug and yet gonna scratch something together and vote in Dec? .

Resolving inadequate public facilities actually owned by OKC that provides essential city services does not set a bad precedent.

So you're against extraordinary public input on critical issues and would prefer the old way of doing things in which the public had very little meaningful input?

Get real.

BoulderSooner
08-07-2019, 07:12 AM
Resolving inadequate public facilities actually owned by OKC that provides essential city services does not set a bad precedent.

So you're against extraordinary public input on critical issues and would prefer the old way of doing things in which the public had very little meaningful input?

Get real.

i not sure how much real public input has occured in this project ...

when widely liked projects were not even allowed to present at council ..

Urban Pioneer
08-07-2019, 07:16 AM
Anyone can attend these meetings and speak in citizen comments. The reality is that they extensively polled the city using scientific methods of likely MAPS voters. The proposals that polled well enough to pass were allowed the time to officially present. I have my own personal opinions about projects that I think should be considered but weren't. But compared to previous MAPS processes this has definitely been the most public and organic.

BoulderSooner
08-07-2019, 09:31 AM
Anyone can attend these meetings and speak in citizen comments. The reality is that they extensively polled the city using scientific methods of likely MAPS voters. The proposals that polled well enough to pass were allowed the time to officially present. I have my own personal opinions about projects that I think should be considered but weren't. But compared to previous MAPS processes this has definitely been the most public and organic.

it has certionally been presented to appear the most public .... but the realtiy is that most of this maps was decided a long long time ago ...

Laramie
08-07-2019, 10:20 AM
IIRC not sure who the sponsor is (city animal control or humane society) but many of the stray animals in our city are being spayed & neutered and returned to the areas. One of my grandchildren had a stray cat we took to the vet; there were some kind of slice making on his ears, an indication he had been neutered--this is what I was told by the vet.

Ross MacLochness
08-07-2019, 10:45 AM
Yep - that notch in the ear is an indication a cat has been fixed.

Laramie
08-10-2019, 05:11 PM
Blacksburg, Virginia

No kill animal shelter

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/collegiatetimes.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/e2/2e249836-2a94-11e7-9eee-97837e02457d/5900bb60db935.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C675
Montgomery County's new multimillion Animal Care and Adoption Center is set to open later this year. The center is located at 434 Cinnabar Rd., March 29, 2017.


No-kill animal shelter in Christiansburg quadruples in size http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news/no-kill-animal-shelter-in-christiansburg-quadruples-in-size/article_6ab65b40-2a85-11e7-88fe-53a39d6301ae.html

Wish I had time to do more research, what little information provided is exemplary of a community that cares...

Just think what Oklahoma City could do with a $40 million facility. This $4.3 million facility is awesome for a city the size of Blacksburg, Va, a city of 50,000 residents, the size of a familiar college town, Stillwater.

Laramie
08-11-2019, 10:56 AM
Many of you have pets in your home or on the premises, we have 3 dogs & 3 cats--all with different personalities, and one with an attitude. It costs a moderate chunk of change to keep current on annual vaccinations, flea & tick protection & the rising costs of health care services when you take your pets to a vet.

One of my dogs (a 7 year old, Chihuahua-Pomeranian mix) started having seizures at age 3. The vet prescribed a control dangerous substance (Phenobarbital) to treat her seizures. You have to go to the regular pharmacy to pick up this medication. I was finger printed, had my picture taken--county ready for incarceration. :wink:

I decided after 2 months to take her off this substance. One of the observation I made, she was getting into the dry cat food (fish base) which probably thinned her blood. Yep, keep those dogs away for the cat food, it's was formulated for cats.

Instead of 1 seizure a week, she's down to a small 5 minute seizure about once every six-eight months since taken off the medication. Good luck with your dog if he or she has seizures--it was more traumatic for me to watch her have seizures--the vet calmed my fears telling me she's probably not aware of what's happening to her.

Let's get that NO KILL SHELTER on MAPS 4...

Jeepnokc
08-12-2019, 07:42 AM
Good for Delaware. Smaller state but if a state can do it...Oklahoma City can also.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/11/us/delaware-no-kill-shelter-trnd/index.html