View Full Version : RIP Notre Dame Cathedral



mugofbeer
04-15-2019, 02:16 PM
It seems to be a catastrophic fire and loss of one of the world's wonders. I am heartbroken.

PhiAlpha
04-15-2019, 02:19 PM
It seems to be a catastrophic fire and loss of one of the world's wonders. I am heartbroken.

Yeah this looks pretty terrible.

Laramie
04-15-2019, 02:50 PM
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/04/15/multimedia/15xp-notredamefacts2/merlin_153560583_34361f41-2b15-4080-937c-7191703af47b-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp


New York Times

Notre-Dame Cathedral: A Short History: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/world/europe/notre-dame-cathedral-facts.html

Our prayers are with the people of Paris...

amocore
04-15-2019, 02:51 PM
It seems the statues and art pieces had been evacuated. If the stone walls, structure and overall towers can be saved, it will be okay.
The spires and roof are gone.

Gut wrenching for me.

hoya
04-15-2019, 03:05 PM
That really sucks.

Apparently the fire started a few minutes after workers left. I wonder if this was an accident or on purpose.

amocore
04-15-2019, 03:09 PM
Good news ! The structure is safe and the relics had been saved.

Eric
04-15-2019, 03:26 PM
Oh that stained glass. My oh my.

Truly a sad day. As sad as they come considering there was no loss of life (as far as I know anyway). It could always have been worse.

Eric
04-15-2019, 03:32 PM
However, it is Holy Week, and the entire premise of Christianity is based on the resurrection.

Rover
04-15-2019, 03:42 PM
Glad to have been blessed to attend a number of masses there, including one of the more moving Palm Sunday processions and mass.

This burning is a stab in the soul of the French. Regardless of how one feels about religion, this is truly one of the world's icons and the fire is a tragedy. It can be rebuilt, and will be, but it will take years. The repair and maintenance alone in this last phase has taken almost a decade.

bchris02
04-15-2019, 05:50 PM
This is definitely tragic. It also seems too fishy that this happened on Easter week at a time when the Catholic Church is under heavy worldwide scrutiny. It needs to be investigated whether or not this really was an accident.

jn1780
04-15-2019, 06:03 PM
As bad as it looks, it could have been a lot worse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wgntv.com/2019/04/15/stunning-photos-from-inside-notre-dame-cathedral-released/amp/

Eric
04-15-2019, 06:18 PM
This is definitely tragic. It also seems too fishy that this happened on Easter week at a time when the Catholic Church is under heavy worldwide scrutiny. It needs to be investigated whether or not this really was an accident.

I agree, but I suspect our suspcians of the culprit (if there is one) are different. There have been a slew of attacks on churches recently. Most notably, Saint-Sulpice (also in Paris) was set on fire about a month ago (3/17 to be exact). Parishners were in attendance at this church at the time as well. Damage was no where near as extensive.

I would dare to say that arsonist like to set fires from places that are easy to escape unnoticed (like this example). The roof of Notre Dame seems like the last place an arsonist would ever start a fire, or even someone pretending to be.

I'm frankly kind of insulted your mind would go there. Burn down a building of this significance to get some sympathy? Seems like a hell of a stretch.
https://s4.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20190318&t=2&i=1367621034&r=LYNXNPEF2H12U&w=1280

poe
04-15-2019, 06:24 PM
Such a terrible event. I was only in Paris for one day, but I took more photos of Notre Dame than any other landmark. I can't even begin to describe how incredible this building is.

Eric
04-15-2019, 06:29 PM
Photo of the alter. Seems appropriate that the cross survived and is still shining.

From what I have read:

*Roof is gone. The stone under the top roof is fine.
*One of the three main stained glass rose windows has fallen out. Most of the other stained glass windows are okay.
*The spire obviously fell, however since it was being restored, the 16 statues that were there were removed just four days ago.
*The main structure is still standing
*Sacred objects are safe


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4OlykgXsAYEBcH.jpg

d-usa
04-15-2019, 07:20 PM
Having worked some fires, all things considered, this isn’t “that bad” considering how much worse it could have been.

Eddie1
04-15-2019, 08:03 PM
Maybe a dumb question but how does stone get destroyed in a fire? Would just the wood, etc be the material that is essentially lost?

TheTravellers
04-15-2019, 08:22 PM
Maybe a dumb question but how does stone get destroyed in a fire? Would just the wood, etc be the material that is essentially lost?

Latest word is that pretty much all the wood in the roof/attic and holding up the roof (which is actually 210 tons of lead) is gone. Made in the 12th/13th centuries from trees that were planted in the 8th/9th centuries. I don't think any stone got destroyed, will probably just need to be cleaned thoroughly.

Saw the master organist perform Messiaen works at a concert there when we went many years ago, incredible, hopefully the organ isn't too damaged, parts of it are centuries old too, I believe. Horrible to see, probably take decades to restore. :(

d-usa
04-15-2019, 08:45 PM
The main damage to the stone is a mix of the weight of the collapsing roof, the thermal stress from expanding in the fire, and getting hit by cold water to control the fire.

bchris02
04-15-2019, 08:56 PM
I agree, but I suspect our suspcians of the culprit (if there is one) are different. There have been a slew of attacks on churches recently. Most notably, Saint-Sulpice (also in Paris) was set on fire about a month ago (3/17 to be exact). Parishners were in attendance at this church at the time as well. Damage was no where near as extensive.

I would dare to say that arsonist like to set fires from places that are easy to escape unnoticed (like this example). The roof of Notre Dame seems like the last place an arsonist would ever start a fire, or even someone pretending to be.

I'm frankly kind of insulted your mind would go there. Burn down a building of this significance to get some sympathy? Seems like a hell of a stretch.


There are a lot of nutcases out there and Notre Dame is one of the most well-known churches in the world. I'd put it right up there with St Paul's in London or St. Basil's in Moscow. Right now arson looks to be the most likely culprit. I do wonder what the motive was though. Terrorism has been ruled out they say but that's another thing that came to mind.

hoya
04-15-2019, 09:04 PM
I don't know how they could rule anything out this early.

bchris02
04-15-2019, 09:07 PM
I don't know how they could rule anything out this early.

If it was arson I'd call it terrorism, given the significance of the building. Nobody would set fire to Notre Dame unless they were trying to make a very loud statement. On the other hand, one of the workers may have thrown a cigarette out and it happened to land in just the right spot to end up setting the entire structure ablaze.

hoya
04-15-2019, 09:51 PM
If it was arson I'd call it terrorism, given the significance of the building. Nobody would set fire to Notre Dame unless they were trying to make a very loud statement. On the other hand, one of the workers may have thrown a cigarette out and it happened to land in just the right spot to end up setting the entire structure ablaze.

Oh I definitely agree. But unless some worker just happened to come forward already and confessed to leaving his blowtorch running or something, I don't see how they could have determined anything at this point.

My guess is they're "ruling out" terrorism because relations between France's muslim community and everybody else ain't that great. Like they're saying "there's no way it could be terrorism", while inside they're saying "please God, don't let it be terrorism".

mugofbeer
04-15-2019, 11:37 PM
Latest word is that pretty much all the wood in the roof/attic and holding up the roof (which is actually 210 tons of lead) is gone. Made in the 12th/13th centuries from trees that were planted in the 8th/9th centuries. I don't think any stone got destroyed, will probably just need to be cleaned thoroughly.

Saw the master organist perform Messiaen works at a concert there when we went many years ago, incredible, hopefully the organ isn't too damaged, parts of it are centuries old too, I believe. Horrible to see, probably take decades to restore. :(

I am sorry to say l heard it reported the organ and alter were destroyed. I will hope the report is premature.

Bill Robertson
04-16-2019, 05:58 AM
I am sorry to say l heard it reported the organ and alter were destroyed. I will hope the report is premature.News report just now said the organ is OK.

TheTravellers
04-16-2019, 07:46 AM
News report just now said the organ is OK.


:congrats:

Mel
04-16-2019, 11:41 AM
It was heartbreaking to watch that fire. SO much History going up in flames.

mugofbeer
04-16-2019, 12:28 PM
News report just now said the organ is OK.

That's great news! I am also heartened to hear of all the corporations and wealthy individuals pledging significant amounts towards rebuilding the Cathedral. This is really where the 1% can step forward and really do the world some good.

jn1780
04-16-2019, 03:47 PM
I think they said it wasn't completely destroyed. A lot of the items that weren't immediately evacuated will have some smoke and water damage. It will take years to restore and clean everything. Probably years before any kind of reconstruction on the building starts. Archaeologist will spend a lot of time just shifting through the debris just to make sure nothing important is thrown in a landfill.

TheTravellers
04-16-2019, 05:13 PM
https://thechive.com/2019/04/16/how-tech-from-assassins-creed-could-be-the-key-to-restoring-notre-dame-8-photos/

mugofbeer
04-16-2019, 05:50 PM
The good news is the Cathedral suffered much less damage than you would have expected. The news said some $300 million pledged from the public and corporations for repairs. Beyond the repairs, I'm sure the cost to restore the recovered artwork will be astronomical.

Plutonic Panda
04-16-2019, 06:02 PM
Don’t forget the Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest entities in the world, so I don’t think finding the money to restore this is of any issue at all.

TheTravellers
04-16-2019, 07:22 PM
The good news is the Cathedral suffered much less damage than you would have expected. The news said some $300 million pledged from the public and corporations for repairs. Beyond the repairs, I'm sure the cost to restore the recovered artwork will be astronomical.

Total is up to $700 million now.

jn1780
04-17-2019, 09:00 AM
Not to downplay the firefighting efforts, but it looks like the fire went out when it ran out of 900 year old wood to burn. If it wasn't for the spire crashing through the stone ceiling, this wouldn't have been bad at all. Repairing the stone ceiling will be the most difficult aspect of the restoration. I imagine they first need to set up interior support to hold up what's left of the stone ceiling while they clean up the debris laying on top of that ceiling. Then they have to match up the stone the best they can or just use all the stone laying on the floor.

mkjeeves
04-17-2019, 11:36 AM
A juxtaposition I found interesting for temporal and cultural context. Have been to both places and many of the old cathedrals around the world. I don't think I'll be around for the end of the restoration on Notre Dame.

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/57155624_2307631935926013_1863293465979256832_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=0f64d63dc25263f90f0e4ace82304fd1&oe=5D433DE0

catcherinthewry
04-17-2019, 01:09 PM
Not to downplay the firefighting efforts, but it looks like the fire went out when it ran out of 900 year old wood to burn. If it wasn't for the spire crashing through the stone ceiling, this wouldn't have been bad at all. Repairing the stone ceiling will be the most difficult aspect of the restoration. I imagine they first need to set up interior support to hold up what's left of the stone ceiling while they clean up the debris laying on top of that ceiling. Then they have to match up the stone the best they can or just use all the stone laying on the floor.

I certainly hope the French read this post before taking any action.

jn1780
04-17-2019, 02:47 PM
I certainly hope the French read this post before taking any action.

Well it wasn't really meant for them to read, it was meant for you. Glad you read it. :)

Meant to add this CNN link that provided context to my thoughts. I'm glad the towers had a stone fire break between them and the main roof structure that burned.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/17/world/gallery/notre-dame-aerials-intl/index.html

catcherinthewry
04-17-2019, 04:23 PM
Well it wasn't really meant for them to read, it was meant for you. Glad you read it. :)

Meant to add this CNN link that provided context to my thoughts. I'm glad the towers had a stone fire break between them and the main roof structure that burned.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/17/world/gallery/notre-dame-aerials-intl/index.html

Sorry, but your post just sounded a little bit too much like Trump's Water Tanker/Must Act Quickly tweet.

Jeepnokc
04-17-2019, 07:16 PM
Did not realize that Notre Dame is actually owned by the French government as is all churches in France built before 1905.

mugofbeer
04-17-2019, 09:21 PM
I wondered that from earlier when Macron vowed to rebuild and the Vatican pledged financial support. It made me stop because l assumed the Catholic church owned it.

I'm curious what people think because it is apparently up in the air...... replace it all as before or redesign the roof and tower?

mugofbeer
04-17-2019, 09:23 PM
Sorry, but your post just sounded a little bit too much like Trump's Water Tanker/Must Act Quickly tweet.

But didn't they have a firefighting 747 on standby at the airport? I thought l saw one over on the west side of Will Rogers once. :)

Rover
04-18-2019, 06:14 AM
I wondered that from earlier when Macron vowed to rebuild and the Vatican pledged financial support. It made me stop because l assumed the Catholic church owned it.

I'm curious what people think because it is apparently up in the air...... replace it all as before or redesign the roof and tower?
It is owned by the Catholic Church, but it is a French historical and cultural treasure and a part of its identity. About 1 million tourists a month visit it.

mkjeeves
04-18-2019, 06:20 AM
It is owned by the Catholic Church, but it is a French historical and cultural treasure and a part of its identity. About 1 million tourists a month visit it.

It's owned by the French government, who has an agreement with the Catholic Church that that they can use it. The Catholic Church has been paying for some upkeep and some previous restoration.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1114869/Notre-dame-cathedral-fire-owner-history-who-owns-notre-dame

https://heavy.com/news/2019/04/notre-dame-renovation/?fbclid=IwAR0kEA8ADThK4yTJRCIsx4eTWWhxxIfeP_hvpN9C CfaHifwOSUOGianY94w

jn1780
04-18-2019, 07:26 AM
I wondered that from earlier when Macron vowed to rebuild and the Vatican pledged financial support. It made me stop because l assumed the Catholic church owned it.

I'm curious what people think because it is apparently up in the air...... replace it all as before or redesign the roof and tower?

I'm sure it will look exactly what it did before but maybe with a little bit more modern roof trusses and fire protection(obviously).

amocore
04-18-2019, 11:59 AM
in France, Cathedral are owned by the government, Churches are owned by the cities. That was the archbishop of Paris was saying on Tuesday.

mugofbeer
04-18-2019, 12:39 PM
Donation commitments exceed $1 billion.

Jersey Boss
04-18-2019, 01:05 PM
Not to downplay the firefighting efforts, but it looks like the fire went out when it ran out of 900 year old wood to burn. If it wasn't for the spire crashing through the stone ceiling, this wouldn't have been bad at all. Repairing the stone ceiling will be the most difficult aspect of the restoration. I imagine they first need to set up interior support to hold up what's left of the stone ceiling while they clean up the debris laying on top of that ceiling. Then they have to match up the stone the best they can or just use all the stone laying on the floor.

While the stone held up it was compromised in the heat of the fire. Testing will need to be done as to how compromised the stone was.
http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/generalnews/2019/04/16/notre-dame-fire-extinguished-but-controversy-on-security_9329d428-17fe-40f6-845d-5a8d2bc9cb1d.html
In addition to the destroyed wood and fire damage, high temperatures may have compromised the stability of the stone and marble, which experts said tend to calcify and crumble

mugofbeer
04-18-2019, 01:30 PM
Thus the $1 billion and higher cost. Macron needs to take back his pledge of repair within 5 years and replace it with a pledge to do it right.

Plutonic Panda
01-07-2020, 03:41 PM
Sadly, this beautiful structure isn’t out of the woods yet:


Notre Dame de Paris is not yet saved, the military general overseeing the restoration of the landmark after April's devastating fire warned on Sunday.

There is still a risk that the cathedral's vaulted ceilings might collapse.


General Jean-Louis Georgelin said Notre Dame is "still in a state of peril" after the fire that destroyed its roof and its spire on April 15.

"Notre Dame is not saved", he said on French television. "There is an extremely important step ahead, which is to remove the scaffolding that had been built around the spire", he said.

The scaffolding had been in place before the fire, as the cathedral was undergoing renovations.

Georgelin is not the only one to worry. Notre Dame's rector, Monsignor Patrick Chauvet, told the Associated Press last month that the landmark building is still so fragile there's "a 50% chance" that the scaffolding may fall on the vaulted ceilings, which would threaten the structure.


- https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/05/notre-dame-cathedral-not-saved-yet-warns-restoration-chief

Another article: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/notre-dame-too-fragile-be-saved-180973878/

Some information on the restoration project and possible timeline:


A former chief of staff of France's armed forces, Mr Georgelin was named by French president Emmanuel Macron to lead the cathedral’s reconstruction.

The scaffolding should be removed by mid-2020 and the restoration work should start next year, he said.

Mr Macron has said he wants the 12th-century cathedral rebuilt by 2024, when Paris hosts the Summer Olympics but experts say that time frame is not realistic.

- https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/news/notre-dame-cathedral-still-in-state-of-peril-after/