View Full Version : Why stay in Oklahoma?



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Eddie1
02-03-2018, 11:38 PM
As the father of a three year going to soon be living this "education hell", what, specifically, makes this state terrible on school? Not enough teachers, no materials, substandard test scores, etc? Just curios as to why its a nightmare.

C_M_25
02-04-2018, 06:36 PM
I'm a born-and-bred Oklahoman. As is my wife. All my family is from here as well, and I've never lived out of the state. My demographic is upper-middle class, less than 40 years old, and I have a growing family with two small kids. I have never had any aspirations to leave this state; however, with age, experience, and changing priorities, I find myself asking: Why stay in Oklahoma??

Politics (I'll keep it brief here as I don't want this to turn into a political thread): The politics in our state are a joke. Honestly, most of our problems start here. Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter. We are starting the legislative session for 2018; yet, we are starting a concurrent legislative session for 2017. Seriously?? We are broke. We have no plan for the future. Kids are pawns to gain political advantage rather than the focus for improving our future. Etc Etc

Lack of Industrial diversity: The oil and gas industry is strong here. If you are working in the industry, you are doing very well. We also have Tinker, which is huge. Other than that, it seems like everything else is small potatoes. We tried to bring in Amazon, but it was almost a cruel joke comparing our state/cities with the others on the list. What future does this state have when the oil/gas industry disappear in the next generation or so?

Flailing Infrastructure: Our roads are a joke. Public transportation is very limited. It seems like our strategy for improving our roads is non-existent. Just keep patching the old patches and kick the can down the road.

Schools: Our school systems are failing. My wife was teacher, and her pay was abysmal with long hours. Luckily her boss was very nice and supportive. Unfortunately, few of the parents were supportive. She worked in a booming school district; yet, she had the bare minimum in the classroom. Our state currently has no budget for 2018, so all the extra curricular activities (after school events, math/science clubs, etc) are on the chopping block. Unless it is football related, it is likely to be cut. It doesn't help we are losing teachers like crazy to nearby states. How can anybody be excited to move their family here? How can anybody be excited to stay here?

I can go on-and-on. Our state has so much potential. We have beautiful landscapes across the state. We have a wonderful distribution of natural resources. There are so many intelligent kids that may never get a voice because they will not get the support they need growing up. It is painfully clear that our legislature is like putty. Bring in enough money and jobs, and you can get them to do whatever you want. We still struggle to draw large businesses though. The really sad part is that people like me, who would have never ever considered moving from this amazing place, are starting to wonder whether to stick around. Changing priorities tend to do that. Looking around, there are so many more opportunities in all directions next door. I'm not saying that I'm going to move, but I worry about the future of our state unless we can make changes soon.

bradh
02-04-2018, 06:57 PM
Our situation was a bit different, as we had no family in OKC, but when a local "booming" district straight up told us if they were us they'd move, we left and didn't look back. Our move was strictly education related. We would have stayed if that piece worked for us.

dankrutka
02-04-2018, 07:19 PM
I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.

SOONER8693
02-04-2018, 07:28 PM
I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.
You get a standing ovation from me for that post Dan.

mugofbeer
02-04-2018, 07:31 PM
You overdo it a bit but I will agree with you on the state of politics and education. Until peoe stop electing far rightist, evangelical hristians. Mind you, I 100% support people's right to practice their religion as they want, but I do have a problem when the practice is brought to politics. Yes, there can be a basic overlap but when politicians refuse to allow tax revenues to provide decent public services then its clear change is needed. Yoj lament about some things, such as roads. This has been discussed ad nauseum on here. As someone wbo has lived in multiple other cities, in general, OMCs roads are pretty normal for a large city. They are certainly no worse than here in De ver. The highway system i OKC are superior. Traffic backups in OKC are nothing compared to most large cities.

bradh
02-04-2018, 07:37 PM
Dan, I agree with most of what you said, great post. OKC has so much accessible great food and entertainment. One question though, I know you're and educator and an advocate for better public schools, but do you have kids? Things change a lot when it's your blood's future on the line.

C_M_25
02-04-2018, 07:44 PM
I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.

I think that is all well said, and I don't disagree with any of it. I'm sure most states have their issues politically.

The diversity thing doesn't affect me directly; however, I know the ups-and-downs of commodities, and this state runs into huge problems when oil/gas crashes. Industrial diversity would help buoy our state budgets by having other things that can provide tax revenue during down times in the oil industry. While we may be diverse across Oklahoma, we're still predominantly tied to the success of oklahoma's oil and gas. It would be nice to have another big-time company or two in the state (Amazon would have been nice but not realistic) to help balance us out a bit.

C_M_25
02-04-2018, 07:48 PM
You overdo it a bit but I will agree with you on the state of politics and education. Until peoe stop electing far rightist, evangelical hristians. Mind you, I 100% support people's right to practice their religion as they want, but I do have a problem when the practice is brought to politics. Yes, there can be a basic overlap but when politicians refuse to allow tax revenues to provide decent public services then its clear change is needed. Yoj lament about some things, such as roads. This has been discussed ad nauseum on here. As someone wbo has lived in multiple other cities, in general, OMCs roads are pretty normal for a large city. They are certainly no worse than here in De ver. The highway system i OKC are superior. Traffic backups in OKC are nothing compared to most large cities.

I think our highway network is good. It is actually very well laid out. I also agree that congestion is non-existant and that is fine with me. I do enjoy the commute times. However, these aren't the problems I have with our infrastructure. It is mostly a maintenance/quality issue. I've driven in enough cities/states to see that we are drastically behind them in these regards.

BG918
02-04-2018, 07:48 PM
One very big thing that Oklahoma has is a low cost of living. And I realize that is tied to the lack of a dynamic economy that drives up costs (supply and demand) in larger cities. But if you do have a higher paying job then you can live in a very nice house something you can’t do in many other places. You might be able to have a pool or country club/golf membership. And not sit in traffic for over an hour every day. And you have built-in babysitters for your kids (grandparents).That is a good reason to stay IMO. Just take vacations to larger cities and beaches/mountains.

dankrutka
02-04-2018, 07:51 PM
Dan, I agree with most of what you said, great post. OKC has so much accessible great food and entertainment. One question though, I know you're and educator and an advocate for better public schools, but do you have kids? Things change a lot when it's your blood's future on the line.

Well, I made the point in my post that education is the one major problem in Oklahoma. I wouldn't blame any teacher, parents, or anyone else for leaving the state for that reason. Having said that, there are still a lot of incredible Oklahoma educators who are presisting through the lack of support. It's not like staying in Oklahoma will guarantee your children some kind of poor education. I can guide you to plenty of great schools and teachers. But, the longer Oklahoma takes to start funding education comparative to surrounding states, the worse things will get. It needs to get fixed.

dankrutka
02-04-2018, 07:56 PM
Here's how I'd rank the driving experience in the states I've lived:
1. Kansas: There's no traffic, even in Wichita. It's kind of unreal.
2. Oklahoma: Traffic is genearlly fine outside of a few bad spots at rush hour, but that's predictable.
3. Texas: The risk of being caught in awful traffic is so much higher than anywhere in OK or KS. I regularly will sit in standstill traffic at 10pm at night. I once sat on the highway for 20 straight minutes at 4am on my way to the airport and almost missed my flight. It deters you from even going places. It's often because DFW has grown so much that there's constantly construction to catch up with both the growth and the sprawl. When construction finishes in one place they just start the next place. In most areas, it never ends, but there are exceptions. And, while DFW has a variety of public transportation, most of it is not very useful as it's built around a suburban park-and-ride model (A-Train/DART Green Line) or it just takes too long to get places because of vast sprawl.

bradh
02-04-2018, 07:57 PM
Well I tried last summer but your PM inbox was full :)

C_M_25
02-04-2018, 08:08 PM
Well, I made the point in my post that education is the one major problem in Oklahoma. I wouldn't blame any teacher, parents, or anyone else for leaving the state for that reason. Having said that, there are still a lot of incredible Oklahoma educators who are presisting through the lack of support. It's not like staying in Oklahoma will guarantee your children some kind of poor education. I can guide you to plenty of great schools and teachers. But, the longer Oklahoma takes to start funding education comparative to surrounding states, the worse things will get. It needs to get fixed.

This is probably my main reason for starting this. There are things wrong with our state. We all know that. The big question is, how long can we endure times like we are in now before we lose enough young talent/young families to really impact our state? What happens if Devon (one of our crown jewels) ever leaves or sells? There are a lot of "what if's" that could happen, and I know it's all very speculative. I just worry about my children's future growing up in a state that seems to be on a razor's edge. I want to live here long-term. I want this state to be one of the best in the country, but we will never move in that direction if we start losing our best talent.

bradh
02-04-2018, 08:11 PM
I will say this, if your kids need a special education plan (on either end of the spectrum), you won't get what you need in Oklahoma sadly.

bchris02
02-04-2018, 08:43 PM
This is a good question.

I moved back to Oklahoma from Charlotte NC in 2012 and I didn't really want to. However, I was working in a dead-end job in Charlotte, the recession was dragging on, and the economy here was much better. The biggest reason is that my family was pressuring me to move back to this part of the country. While I lived in OKC as a child and a teenager, I had not lived here as an adult and had been away for 10 years so in many ways I was like a transplant in my (sort of) hometown. It was a rough adjustment initially, but not all of that was Oklahoma's fault (I was dealing with some serious personal issues around that time as well).

Why do I stay? Currently I have a decent job that I like, am close to family, and am not in a financial situation where I could leave without doing something very risky. If one of those three things were to change, I would probably leave. In the meantime I am comfortable here, especially since I moved downtown. OKC's entertainment options have improved many times over since I moved back here. While the roads are in very poor condition comparative to other places I've lived or spent significant time in, traffic flows much smoother here than in a big city. A lot of exciting things are on the horizon for OKC over the next few years as well, especially with the streetcar and the new convention center coming online. OKC in 2020 is going to look significantly different from 2018 with everything currently in the pipeline. While I really prefer larger cities (cities like Charlotte, Portland, Denver, and Kansas City are my ideal size), OKC offers a lot more than it used to.

If I was to leave it would be for the following reasons.

1) Politics - this has been covered enough and yes other states do have their nutty legislators, but Oklahoma is among the worst of the worst. I would prefer to live in a blue state or a more moderate red one. Oklahoma's education problem ties back to this larger issue. This state's legislature seems to only exist to serve two special interest groups; the oil & gas lobby and the fundamentalist churches. While Oklahoma's public education system is racing to the bottom, the legislature is concerned about things like "school choice" and freedom to homeschool without accountability. Also don't forget about the big deal that was made a couple of years ago about AP courses not being pro-America or pro-Christian enough.

2) Weather - In terms of my own preferences, I can't think of very many places in North America that have a worse climate than central Oklahoma. The best way to sum it up is I don't like the crazy extremes and really don't like the spring severe weather season, especially after 2013. While some places may have more extreme seasons such as Minnesota in the winter or Arizona in the summer, those places are very nice for a large portion of the year.

3) Too many bad memories/negative emotions associated with this place. Not going into specifics on this forum.

emtefury
02-04-2018, 09:24 PM
I have lived in Pennsylvania, Mississippi, Nebraska, South Carolina, California, and now Oklahoma. I have found the grass is not always greener on the other side. Every state has issues. Every state does things well and not well. For example, California spends a ton on education, but the schools where we lived were not good. South Carolina has terrible zoning. Pennsylvania has really high property tax. I could go on. Every state I lived in is trying to improve and Oklahoma is no different.

dankrutka
02-04-2018, 10:30 PM
I will say this, if your kids need a special education plan (on either end of the spectrum), you won't get what you need in Oklahoma sadly.

Why do you say this? These are IDEA federal guidelines that you can/should sue if they’re not met. Every Oklahoma school I have ever worked with has taken special-education seriously. On the other hand, the state of Texas is actually facing serious allegations of not providing special education services. Anyway, I’d appreciate a little more explanation. It’s really important to provide context especially when you seem to be implying that many special educators are not doing their job in the state. But, of course, I empathize and support your family and children if they did not receive the services they have a right to.

Celebrator
02-04-2018, 10:48 PM
I really appreciate the tone of this thread. Honest talk without extremes in negatives or turning a blind eye to the opportunities for improvement. If only all public discourse these days could be this respectful and honest. I have lived in all four corners of the nation (OR, CA, NH, FL, and now OK) and I can say that I love this place the most (our reasons why have pretty much already been mentioned above) but each place has its strengths and you just have to decide which state has strengths that best match what's most important to you in life, so that you can accept the trade-offs.

We are home schooling our children, so the education aspect doesn't affect us on a day-to-day basis as of yet. However, the longer the lack of commitment to educational funding goes on, the more quality of life will go down--affecting EVERYONE--whether they have kids in the schools or not. And we would be home-schooling even if we lived in Massachusetts where the public schools are supposedly the nation's best--just our choice and there are lots of great opportunities for home-schoolers around here, so it works great for us. But I fully understand I have a stake in the education system simply because I live here and want to see the public education situation turn the corner now.

jerrywall
02-05-2018, 06:56 AM
Oklahoma has been great to me and my family. Both of my kids needed an IEP in school and the schools were great with it. There are jobs a plenty. Cost of living is great. There's a great culture. There are so many nerd and art opportunities that it's nuts. Some of the best medical professionals in the world operate out of here. The surgeon who didy son's heart surgery did so a day after doing the same for a Saudi Prince who flew in. Our Indi music scene is small but still there. We have this thriving craft brewery industry. Education needs work of course and politics is about as annoying as everywhere else. I love the weather, the traffic, and the people. No place is perfect but I'm as happy here as I'd be anywhere b

BBatesokc
02-05-2018, 07:31 AM
I don't get the need to "flee Oklahoma." I've lived here all my life and visit other states on a regular basis. Been married for almost 20 years and we have zero desire to leave. Raised one son here who's now 25 and he has no desire to leave either. As for education - I think a lot of it is what you make of it. Most of our closest friends have young adult children that were educated here and are doing great. In fact, only a couple have any desire to leave the state at all. Our son is a product of Del City High School and we couldn't be prouder of him. He gave college a try and it wasn't for him - he's always been a get your hands dirty kind of kid. So, he went to welding school in Tulsa and is now a supervisor making over $60K a year at only 25 years old and no degree.

He stays for the same reason we do; plenty of land/housing to be had for a relatively low price. He wants a small acreage like we have. You can live in the burds but be in the city within 20 minutes. Cost of living is low, employment is low, and there is plenty to do if you enjoy the outdoors. He could take his skills to most any state he wanted to. Yet, as a young adult he prefers to see his dollars go further here.

Timshel
02-05-2018, 08:27 AM
I am in the group of late 20-somethings that left for a few years (New York) and decided to come back. While this is somewhat industry specific and I'm sure there are people who may not agree but I believe the quality of life in OKC, on the whole, is better here than in NYC. I went from working 12-15 hour days six days a week to generally an 8-6 schedule while taking a slight, if any, pay cut after factoring in cost of living, etc. Living in a "cooler" city doesn't mean much if you don't have the time or disposable income to enjoy what the city has to offer. In OKC, the day-to-day entertainment options are just as good as anywhere else and for me at least, I have substantially more time and flexibility to travel to other places. While some of OKC's issues are severe, I'm generally in "the grass isn't always greener" camp - every city has its issues but overall I believe OKC is headed in the right direction, despite our state's political leadership.

To be sure, the political and education issues are huge concerns and will quickly, if they haven't already, create systemic and long-lasting consequences for our state. Hopefully we will see positive momentum on this front in this year's elections. Also, it is significantly easier to get involved in OKC compared to larger cities. One of my goals for this year is to try and be more involved, on a micro and macro level, to try and improve OKC's educational prospects. Also - and I completely understand they are not for everyone - I would encourage parents to look into OKC's private schools. While it's not an answer to our city and state's education issues, it could make sense for your family. I grew up in a very middle-class single parent home, and while my mother definitely had to sacrifice so that I could grow up going to a private school, we would both say it was worth it. In my experience, there are a number of OKC private schools that are more socioeconomically, racially, etc. diverse (though not as much as they should be) compared to the stereotype that provide a very good education for a reasonable cost. While private schools are not without issues and do not solve the larger problems, they are an option.

All-in-all Oklahoma has serious issues but also has a lot going for it - like anything, our experience here is what we make of it. Though I agree with bchris that the weather is pretty crappy!

dankrutka
02-05-2018, 08:45 AM
I'll also just add something my father told me when I went to college, you'll get out of it what you put into it. Almost no matter where you live, if you get involved local organizations, attend local events, and invest in your local community, you're likely to find that community worth your time and energy. The size of Oklahoma makes it easier in some ways to feel like you can make a difference too.

bradh
02-05-2018, 08:47 AM
Why do you say this? These are IDEA federal guidelines that you can/should sue if they’re not met. Every Oklahoma school I have ever worked with has taken special-education seriously. On the other hand, the state of Texas is actually facing serious allegations of not providing special education services. Anyway, I’d appreciate a little more explanation. It’s really important to provide context especially when you seem to be implying that many special educators are not doing their job in the state. But, of course, I empathize and support your family and children if they did not receive the services they have a right to.

Dan, clean out your private message inbox and I'll shoot you a message. I'm well aware of what IEP's are, but in Oklahoma they are only required on the lower end.

dankrutka
02-05-2018, 08:51 AM
Dan, clean out your private message inbox and I'll shoot you a message. I'm well aware of what IEP's are, but in Oklahoma they are only required on the lower end.

Messages are cleared out. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I am not an IDEA expert, but I've never heard of differences between applications in states. However, if you or others are not receiving services you should then I will reach out to experts in IDEA law to find out more.

corwin1968
02-05-2018, 10:31 AM
Dan, clean out your private message inbox and I'll shoot you a message. I'm well aware of what IEP's are, but in Oklahoma they are only required on the lower end.

As a person who works in special education in Oklahoma, I would be interested in hearing your experiences, as well.

bradh
02-05-2018, 10:58 AM
As a person who works in special education in Oklahoma, I would be interested in hearing your experiences, as well.

Sent, and to clear this up, I mixed up two different topics in my earlier post. Those families with kids who have special education needs are leaving the state because of medicare/health department issues, not the special education. That was my bad for mixing up the two.

bombermwc
02-05-2018, 11:01 AM
I would disagree with a lot of the "end of the world" statements being made here. I'm a product of Oklahoma public education, and i had a good experience. We're still complaining about the same issues the teachers complained about when i was a kid....pay and budget. I dont think that will ever go away and we continue to pile more responsibilities on the teacher with the parents wanting to take less and less responsibility themselves for their "precious angels".

While i haven't lived in other states, i have family in several and some of my employees do live in other states, so i get a chance to throw questions to those folks. Let me tell you, we're far from the oddity in the U.S. in all of the issues listed above. There really is no "greener grass" across the state line, the problems are just different. Even in TX, where everyone LOVES to say things are so much better, teachers and staff dont get raises either. Their tax structure is totally different, but last time i checked, they still had under performing districts, budget issues, etc. as well. Don't think for a second that the TX legislature doesn't hear the same complaints ours does. They're cutting money to activities just like any other state. Heck, even in Austin schools right there next to the capital, band is a good example of funding being almost totally gone. There was a good piece on a HS Band discussing this very thing and the "creative" ways they have to use to make up for the state not funding them well enough....like paying for bus gas to go to games/contests.

Besides all that, funding isn't the end-all solution. Throwing money at a problem doesn't magically make it better. Look to Mississippi for an example. It has one of the lowest per-student spending rates in the region...no surprise. But some of the small towns have fought against that and exceed the state average by double digits. However, the economy in those towns is still terrible. I'll have to dig, but there's a good story on that out there in the interwebs...... So the question would be what did you get for that extra spending? In these towns, the students aren't leaving town, there just isn't a good economy for a good job after. So remember that education is only one piece to the puzzle of what the GOAL of education is. If you got a good education from school, but the only job you can get is minimum wage, was it worth it?

Our economy in OK is more diverse than it once was, but dont kid yourself, we are still an energy economy. If you don't think that's true, just look at the job loss after gas prices tanked. Its not just oil, its oil service, midstream, drilling, transport, etc. But i think you'd be surprised at HOW diverse its become compared to where it WAS. There's plenty of health there, but the politics on how things are taxed is keeping us from realizing some of those benefits.

And politics are screwed up all over the country, especially at the top.

I 10000% agree with the statement said above that you'll only get out of it, what you put in. So if you move to a 'burb and think that your kid's got a free ride to a full ride scholarship, you're kidding yourself. It takes work no matter what district you're in, no matter what state you're in. YOU, as the parent, are what is going to help decide what the outcome is going to be. It's not always fun, in fact a lot of the time it isn't. But being a parent isn't about just having fun. Again, what's the end goal here? Sometimes i wanna scream when im doing homework with my kids, but it pays off.

bchris02
02-05-2018, 11:44 AM
In terms of living elsewhere, I would say it's definitely a good experience and can really give a person perspective, even if its just temporary and they eventually move back. Living in another city/state is a lot different than something like spending a weekend in Dallas or a week in California. When it comes to the "grass is greener" mentality, everywhere has its problems but those problems are different. Some people may not be cut out for the hectic, fast pace life of major cities like Los Angeles or New York. Others might love it. Spending some time away from Oklahoma can help a person get that perspective. A lot of people move away and then move back. Some do not. It comes down to what a person values and what problems they can tolerate vs what they cannot.




Besides all that, funding isn't the end-all solution. Throwing money at a problem doesn't magically make it better. Look to Mississippi for an example. It has one of the lowest per-student spending rates in the region...no surprise. But some of the small towns have fought against that and exceed the state average by double digits. However, the economy in those towns is still terrible. I'll have to dig, but there's a good story on that out there in the interwebs...... So the question would be what did you get for that extra spending? In these towns, the students aren't leaving town, there just isn't a good economy for a good job after. So remember that education is only one piece to the puzzle of what the GOAL of education is. If you got a good education from school, but the only job you can get is minimum wage, was it worth it?


One thing that hurts Mississippi is that other than the gulf coastal area heavily reliant on tourism, it doesn't really have any major economic centers. Much of the state is within the Mississippi river delta region which is one of the poorest areas of the country. Brain drain is a huge problem there, especially with cities like Memphis, New Orleans, and Birmingham pretty much right on Mississippi's doorstep. Mississippi doesn't have any major cities of its own. Oklahoma has some of this with DFW being such a powerhouse, but I would say OKC and Tulsa hold their own economically much better than Jackson does and are more of a draw.



And politics are screwed up all over the country, especially at the top.


I started a thread on this in the politics subforum, but one of the most frustrating thing to me about Oklahoma is the religious authoritarianism. Oklahoma politics have actually pushed me away from religion. Most of the problems with issues like the budget and education can be tied back to this very problem. While this is a problem across the Bible Belt, it stands out in Oklahoma simply because the state is so red, even in the cities. Social change typically doesn't come to Oklahoma until decades after the rest of the country has moved on, unless mandated by the federal government like same-sex marriage was. Nearly all progressive political capital here (what little there is) has to go into fighting religiously-motivated reactionary legislation.

I want to say that I have nothing against religious people or people practicing their faith. However, it's exhausting that fundamentalist Christianity plays such a prominent role in politics in this state. To be fair, a lot of this is caused by voter apathy among younger voters and straight-ticket voting. Still, I often find myself wishing I lived somewhere a little more libertarian.

Scott5114
02-05-2018, 12:35 PM
I started a thread on this in the politics subforum, but one of the most frustrating thing to me about Oklahoma is the religious authoritarianism. Oklahoma politics have actually pushed me away from religion. Most of the problems with issues like the budget and education can be tied back to this very problem. While this is a problem across the Bible Belt, it stands out in Oklahoma simply because the state is so red, even in the cities. Social change typically doesn't come to Oklahoma until decades after the rest of the country has moved on, unless mandated by the federal government like same-sex marriage was. Nearly all progressive political capital here (what little there is) has to go into fighting religiously-motivated reactionary legislation.

I want to say that I have nothing against religious people or people practicing their faith. However, it's exhausting that fundamentalist Christianity plays such a prominent role in politics in this state. To be fair, a lot of this is caused by voter apathy among younger voters and straight-ticket voting. Still, I often find myself wishing I lived somewhere a little more libertarian.

Agreed. I'd add that I think that having a more-or-less political monopoly in Oklahoma is doing us a disservice. We have the same old problems year after year because other ideologies and fresh ways of thinking about the problem can't break into the Legislature. I'm not asking for Oklahoma to become a west-coast blue state, but I'd like there to at least be some competing voices to moderate the debate and present an alternative to just cutting everything ad nauseum as a panacea.

The religious political culture definitely puts a dampener on that because it establishes religion as almost a pre-requisite for running. I would very much like to run for office and see if I could help tackle our state's problems, but one thing that holds me back is that I'm not religious, and if my opponent decided to try to campaign on out-religioning me, they'd probably win. I think that's probably the case for a lot of potential candidates, and so we're probably missing good leadership we didn't know we had because they simply don't want to fight against that environment.

I'm hoping that in the long run the investments we've made in the city will draw people to move here, and we'll see a healthy mix of viewpoints in the future. That hope is what keeps me sticking it out here in Oklahoma instead of fleeing to another state.

Bunty
02-05-2018, 12:38 PM
Lack of Industrial diversity: The oil and gas industry is strong here. If you are working in the industry, you are doing very well. We also have Tinker, which is huge. Other than that, it seems like everything else is small potatoes. We tried to bring in Amazon, but it was almost a cruel joke comparing our state/cities with the others on the list. What future does this state have when the oil/gas industry disappear in the next generation or so?

Flailing Infrastructure: Our roads are a joke. Public transportation is very limited. It seems like our strategy for improving our roads is non-existent. Just keep patching the old patches and kick the can down the road.



Oklahoma's economy has diversified some from oil. During the oil depression of the early 1980s the state unemployment rate peaked out at nearly 9%. With the most recent oil depression, unemployment rate briefly got up to 5%.

While I don't drive over much of the state, I do find the highways from Stillwater to Tulsa and Oklahoma City to be in generally good shape. An exception to that is that short stretch from the Highway 18/51 junction east to Yale. There it meets your definition of "Just keep patching the old patches and kick the can down the road." Anyway, the highways that run through the metros are bound to be in poorer condition from having much more traffic. They should be taken care of better.

Being complacent about Oklahoma's problems, because other states also have problems isn't helpful. Oklahoma's problems are extra bad. OSU president Burns Hargis complains about Oklahoma being at or near no. 1 on lists of things that are bad. One problem Hargis is dealing with is the decline of students at OSU. It's probably a symptom of Oklahoma's problems.

bchris02
02-05-2018, 01:02 PM
Agreed. I'd add that I think that having a more-or-less political monopoly in Oklahoma is doing us a disservice. We have the same old problems year after year because other ideologies and fresh ways of thinking about the problem can't break into the Legislature. I'm not asking for Oklahoma to become a west-coast blue state, but I'd like there to at least be some competing voices to moderate the debate and present an alternative to just cutting everything ad nauseum as a panacea.

The religious political culture definitely puts a dampener on that because it establishes religion as almost a pre-requisite for running. I would very much like to run for office and see if I could help tackle our state's problems, but one thing that holds me back is that I'm not religious, and if my opponent decided to try to campaign on out-religioning me, they'd probably win. I think that's probably the case for a lot of potential candidates, and so we're probably missing good leadership we didn't know we had because they simply don't want to fight against that environment.

I'm hoping that in the long run the investments we've made in the city will draw people to move here, and we'll see a healthy mix of viewpoints in the future. That hope is what keeps me sticking it out here in Oklahoma instead of fleeing to another state.

I agree with this completely and it's unfortunate. Elections in this state almost come down to who can out-Jesus their opponent. Religious conservatives will almost always vote primarily based on religious wedge issues like abortion and LGBT rights and the state lawmakers know this. They can pretty much do whatever they want as long as they maintain an anti-choice and anti-gay platform. Unfortunately, I think it's going to be a generation before there is any hope of change on this front. People aren't moving here at fast enough rates, especially from blue states, to really have an effect at moderating the politics. Younger people, even those of faith, are rejecting the Moral Majority culture but they aren't the majority of people in this state who vote. If it wasn't for various things currently preventing me from leaving Oklahoma, I doubt I would want to stick around to wait for things to change.

One thing is that Oklahoma is a very low-turnout state. I wonder how the state political map would look with increased turnout and also if straight-ticket voting was eliminated. There is a reason the medical marijuana initiative was moved to June. Republican lawmakers are worried about that state question driving progressive-minded people to the polls who wouldn't otherwise vote.

MadMonk
02-05-2018, 02:16 PM
This is a good question.

I moved back to Oklahoma from Charlotte NC in 2012 and I didn't really want to. However, I was working in a dead-end job in Charlotte, the recession was dragging on, and the economy here was much better. The biggest reason is that my family was pressuring me to move back to this part of the country. While I lived in OKC as a child and a teenager, I had not lived here as an adult and had been away for 10 years so in many ways I was like a transplant in my (sort of) hometown. It was a rough adjustment initially, but not all of that was Oklahoma's fault (I was dealing with some serious personal issues around that time as well).

That's interesting. I spent many years in and around the Charlotte/Mecklenburg county area. I hated nearly everything about it, especially those awful humid summers. About the only redeeming factor was that you had both mountainous areas and beach areas all within a pretty reasonable driving distance. You have to drive a bit further in Oklahoma to get to those kind of places.

I've been back a few times since I left because I still have family there, but each visit reaffirms my determination to never live in that area again.

BG918
02-05-2018, 02:23 PM
I will say that Oklahoma has some very good private schools for kids, likely because of the general lack of funding for public schools. Some people I know moved to OK from more expensive states and used part of the money they used to spend on housing for private education for their kids. I'm not saying that's what everyone should do and increasing funding is an absolute necessity (which I hope gets accomplished this legislative session) but there are other good options out there if that is your main sticking point.

As far as universities go OU has made huge strides and is a well-respected public university, considered to be in the Top 50 in the U.S. OSU is also respected for many of its programs and TU is one of the best private colleges in the region. Certainly lots of room for improvement but compared to other states with similar populations we have a pretty good higher education system with a growing number of graduate and research opportunities.

bchris02
02-05-2018, 02:48 PM
That's interesting. I spent many years in and around the Charlotte/Mecklenburg county area. I hated nearly everything about it, especially those awful humid summers. About the only redeeming factor was that you had both mountainous areas and beach areas all within a pretty reasonable driving distance. You have to drive a bit further in Oklahoma to get to those kind of places.

I've been back a few times since I left because I still have family there, but each visit reaffirms my determination to never live in that area again.

Interesting that you disliked that area. I absolutely loved it out there and still miss it even though I haven't been back in almost six years now. I actually almost bought a house, not knowing that literally a year later I would be moving back to Oklahoma (something I told myself at the time that I would never do). I agree that the summers can be brutal (though I actually think the dry Oklahoma summers are worse) but the springs and falls are especially nice out there. I miss not really having to worry about tornadoes. I miss the greenery and general lushness of the region and the tree-lined streets. The only place in central Oklahoma that looks anything like it is the Heritage Hills neighborhood.

stlokc
02-05-2018, 03:20 PM
Interesting that you disliked that area. I absolutely loved it out there and still miss it even though I haven't been back in almost six years now. I actually almost bought a house, not knowing that literally a year later I would be moving back to Oklahoma (something I told myself at the time that I would never do). I agree that the summers can be brutal (though I actually think the dry Oklahoma summers are worse) but the springs and falls are especially nice out there. I miss not really having to worry about tornadoes. I miss the greenery and general lushness of the region and the tree-lined streets. The only place in central Oklahoma that looks anything like it is the Heritage Hills neighborhood.

While it wouldn't be a reason for me to move or not move anywhere, you're not wrong about the "lushness" and "greenery" in Charlotte and in most places east of OKC. I've never understood why OKC neighborhoods and other districts don't insist on robust tree planting when they develop. It's not going to look like Charlotte overnight, but trees do grow in Central Oklahoma. I looked recently at an aerial photo of that area where they are building the Aloft south of Quail Springs Mall and I thought "If they had lined that boulevard (the one that circles around from Memorial to Penn) with trees when they built it in the 1980s, and maybe put them in the median as well, it would look so beautiful now and I would bet it would have developed long before now." Same thing with the bridge supports on the highways and even landscaping of shopping centers, etc. OKC doesn't have a lot of hills and the section line roads being ramrod-straight are awfully boring, but there are things that can be done to make the city look nicer.

tfvc.org
02-05-2018, 03:37 PM
I was born and raised in Denver, stayed until my early 20s have lived in Lexington/Norman off and on throughout the years and lived in St Pete for almost 10. Denver's roads are bad because of the salt/brine they put on them every winter, Oklahoma has started doing this but even before they did this the roads have been bad and in disrepair, and I think that is mostly because of the have to pay for it upfront law that the state has implemented. I do want to move out of the state, but mostly because I don't do well with the cold, and miss Florida's warmer winters and being close to the beach and water. I do miss the mountains in Denver though, and if I had it my way I would move to Spain where I could have the best of both worlds, warm temperate climate, warm water, beaches, and pretty mountains to explore. I have always been told by people that this state is usually 7-20 years behind the rest of the country, and in a lot of ways it is, but with the internet in a lot of ways this gap has closed in. As an example I have been a vegan since I was 22 and when I lived here in the late 90s there wasn't much choice and had to explain what a vegan was too many times to wait staff. Luckily stores like Dodsons and that now defunct grocery store on 12th and E Lindsay. Now we have 4? natural grocery chains all over the metro, 2-3 fully vegan restaurants and a lot of menus caters to my kind, in beef country. I think that OKC really needs to start bringing in more entertainment, I am tired of having to drive to Dallas or Tulsa to see a show, (I like that industrial music) and there are fewer places to see one than in the 90s. The main reason why I am back here is because my dad talked me into moving back, and I regretted moving within a month of being here, and here I am 7 years later.

bchris02
02-05-2018, 03:37 PM
While it wouldn't be a reason for me to move or not move anywhere, you're not wrong about the "lushness" and "greenery" in Charlotte and in most places east of OKC. I've never understood why OKC neighborhoods and other districts don't insist on robust tree planting when they develop. It's not going to look like Charlotte overnight, but trees do grow in Central Oklahoma. I looked recently at an aerial photo of that area where they are building the Aloft south of Quail Springs Mall and I thought "If they had lined that boulevard (the one that circles around from Memorial to Penn) with trees when they built it in the 1980s, and maybe put them in the median as well, it would look so beautiful now and I would bet it would have developed long before now." Same thing with the bridge supports on the highways and even landscaping of shopping centers, etc. OKC doesn't have a lot of hills and the section line roads being ramrod-straight are awfully boring, but there are things that can be done to make the city look nicer.

I definitely agree. Take a trip down to Dallas or even Norman to get examples of things that the city could do to look nicer even in this climate. I think the first part of it is that landscaping/beautification is simply not something OKC does well (and never has in at least the post-urban renewal era). The second part of it is the type of trees they typically plant are faster growing softwoods which don't survive Oklahoma's ice storms and summer droughts. The 2007 ice storm in particular was especially devastating to central Oklahoma's tree canopy. The tall, mature trees in Heritage Hills are slow-growing post oaks and elms which are much more resilient.

C_M_25
02-05-2018, 05:09 PM
This is really great conversation. I'm impressed everyone has remained civil as I have seen many of these discussions turn the other way. When I posted this question yesterday, I was hoping to hear different points of view and opinions regarding the state of the State of Oklahoma. More importantly, I was curious if anybody else was or has contemplated this very thing.

Now, my second question/topic focuses a little less on the bad around Oklahoma. "Why do I stay in Oklahoma?" Sometimes I wonder why I hang around here given the problems, but here are the reasons I stay (other than family of course):

1) People: This is absolute #1! There are good people here in Oklahoma. I've traveled all over the US and you have to look really hard to find people as nice as what you come across here. People really rally to help you out in a time of need. It is really something special.

2) Being an outdoorsman, I love the variation in our landscape across the state. Show me a place that has "mountains," beautiful mesa's, desert environments, green country, beautiful lakes, and deep river-filled canyons. It is really quite amazing! I wish it didn't take so long travel to some of these places.

3) The Weather: This is a love/hate relationship. It is exciting yet dangerous. I've seen some of the most amazing storm clouds across the plains. The sunsets are amazing as well! I just don't like the unpredictability and destruction our weather can bring.

4) Property values: While this is often over-played relative to many other cities, housing is very affordable here. I want to own land some day, and this is achievable here.

5) Potential: This state and the people within it has amazing potential. Will we ever be a tourist destination like Colorado? No. Of course not. However, if we can get our priorities in line, we have the potential to make this state a place people want to re-locate to.

You all have mentioned a lot of these points already. I just wanted to share with you why I stick around this place even though re-locating pops into my mind from time to time.

poe
02-05-2018, 05:26 PM
This is really great conversation. I'm impressed everyone has remained civil as I have seen many of these discussions turn the other way. When I posted this question yesterday, I was hoping to hear different points of view and opinions regarding the state of the State of Oklahoma. More importantly, I was curious if anybody else was or has contemplated this very thing.

Now, my second question/topic focuses a little less on the bad around Oklahoma. "Why do I stay in Oklahoma?" Sometimes I wonder why I hang around here given the problems, but here are the reasons I stay (other than family of course):

1) People: This is absolute #1! There are good people here in Oklahoma. I've traveled all over the US and you have to look really hard to find people as nice as what you come across here. People really rally to help you out in a time of need. It is really something special.

2) Being an outdoorsman, I love the variation in our landscape across the state. Show me a place that has "mountains," beautiful mesa's, desert environments, green country, beautiful lakes, and deep river-filled canyons. It is really quite amazing! I wish it didn't take so long travel to some of these places.

3) The Weather: This is a love/hate relationship. It is exciting yet dangerous. I've seen some of the most amazing storm clouds across the plains. The sunsets are amazing as well! I just don't like the unpredictability and destruction our weather can bring.

4) Property values: While this is often over-played relative to many other cities, housing is very affordable here. I want to own land some day, and this is achievable here.

5) Potential: This state and the people within it has amazing potential. Will we ever be a tourist destination like Colorado? No. Of course not. However, if we can get our priorities in line, we have the potential to make this state a place people want to re-locate to.

You all have mentioned a lot of these points already. I just wanted to share with you why I stick around this place even though re-locating pops into my mind from time to time.

As a person who was born in Oklahoma and would like to one day settle in the OKC area, this post made me very happy.

dankrutka
02-05-2018, 06:30 PM
I would disagree with a lot of the "end of the world" statements being made here. I'm a product of Oklahoma public education, and i had a good experience. We're still complaining about the same issues the teachers complained about when i was a kid....pay and budget. I dont think that will ever go away and we continue to pile more responsibilities on the teacher with the parents wanting to take less and less responsibility themselves for their "precious angels".

While i haven't lived in other states, i have family in several and some of my employees do live in other states, so i get a chance to throw questions to those folks. Let me tell you, we're far from the oddity in the U.S. in all of the issues listed above. There really is no "greener grass" across the state line, the problems are just different. Even in TX, where everyone LOVES to say things are so much better, teachers and staff dont get raises either. Their tax structure is totally different, but last time i checked, they still had under performing districts, budget issues, etc. as well. Don't think for a second that the TX legislature doesn't hear the same complaints ours does. They're cutting money to activities just like any other state. Heck, even in Austin schools right there next to the capital, band is a good example of funding being almost totally gone. There was a good piece on a HS Band discussing this very thing and the "creative" ways they have to use to make up for the state not funding them well enough....like paying for bus gas to go to games/contests.

Besides all that, funding isn't the end-all solution. Throwing money at a problem doesn't magically make it better. Look to Mississippi for an example. It has one of the lowest per-student spending rates in the region...no surprise. But some of the small towns have fought against that and exceed the state average by double digits. However, the economy in those towns is still terrible. I'll have to dig, but there's a good story on that out there in the interwebs...... So the question would be what did you get for that extra spending? In these towns, the students aren't leaving town, there just isn't a good economy for a good job after. So remember that education is only one piece to the puzzle of what the GOAL of education is. If you got a good education from school, but the only job you can get is minimum wage, was it worth it?


I disagree with your take on Oklahoma's education situation. The grass is greener for teachers in Texas. Let's compare two comparable cities: Norman, Oklahoma and Denton, Texas. Both are college towns of about 125,000 people that are only a 2 hour drive apart. The demographics are very similar. The difference in starting teacher pay is around $15-20,000 per year, which is astounding. This situation is the same for surrounding districts. Oklahoma's 2016 Teacher of the Year, Shawn Sheehan shared his paychecks so you can check for yourself: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/former-teacher-of-the-year-s-net-pay-in-oklahoma/article_b79d1066-cb30-5fba-bb2f-e7f73ef5e5ad.html

Of course, Texas schools have their own problems and issues. But Texas teachers are not moving to Oklahoma to work. Oklahoma is losing an incredible number of exceptional teachers to Texas and every year Oklahoma's pay situation stays like this they lose more. It's an absolute crisis. And I'll go further and say that Oklahoma's education is worse than any other state in the country. I attend national conferences and people constantly ask me, what's going on in Oklahoma?!? False equivalencies are very dangerous. This situation will cause long term harm to the state if not fixed soon.

dankrutka
02-05-2018, 06:37 PM
5) Potential: This state and the people within it has amazing potential. Will we ever be a tourist destination like Colorado? No. Of course not. However, if we can get our priorities in line, we have the potential to make this state a place people want to re-locate to.

Kudos for starting an interesting thread. :)

I'd like to add that part of what keeps me interested in OKC is the potential. I lived in Midtown in 2010-2011 and it's been a blast to see the ways it's grown since then. And there is still so much untapped potential in the empty lots and other areas for creating a really special neighborhood. Again, there are a lot of good people striving to do good things and it's not hard to be a part of real change in OKC.

Bunty
02-05-2018, 07:54 PM
The religious political culture definitely puts a dampener on that because it establishes religion as almost a pre-requisite for running. I would very much like to run for office and see if I could help tackle our state's problems, but one thing that holds me back is that I'm not religious, and if my opponent decided to try to campaign on out-religioning me, they'd probably win. I think that's probably the case for a lot of potential candidates, and so we're probably missing good leadership we didn't know we had because they simply don't want to fight against that environment.


Probably depends on district. My Dem. state rep is pro-choice, and wasn't afraid to say at a Jan. 2016 town hall meeting that he didn't believe that the Ten Commandments monument belonged outside the state capitol. In 2016, he didn't draw any opposition for reelection. However, his first election and first reelection were close. The results explained why he chose not to run for state senator when the position was wide open. The Senate district has more stronger Republican precincts.

More people should run as legislators, especially if they don't want to serve as an echo for what is already there. After the 2018 session, the Republican incumbents may be even more unpopular than they were in 2016. It won't help Republicans, if Trump's popularity declines under 50% in Oklahoma.

rte66man
02-06-2018, 04:18 AM
More people should run as legislators

I worked as a Fiscal Analyst at the OK Legislature for 6 years back in the mid 90's so I know how the sausage is made. I would love to run, but I am lacking 2 things: time and money. If you have a full time job, you can't be an effective legislator. And no, being one isn't part time. While they may only be in session from February through May, they can't just ignore emails and calls from constituents the other 8 months. The base pay is around $38k. That would be a large pay cut for me. Since I already have State health benefits, there's no gain there. IMO, those 2 factors are what prevent many potential candidates from running. That and the cost of campaigning every 2 years.

stlokc
02-06-2018, 06:29 AM
This is counter-intuitive to a lot of people’s gut sensibilities, but raising the legislators’ pay to $100K and setting up a situation where it really is a full-time job might be an approach that brings more serious people into the picture.

MadMonk
02-06-2018, 06:56 AM
Interesting that you disliked that area. I absolutely loved it out there and still miss it even though I haven't been back in almost six years now. I actually almost bought a house, not knowing that literally a year later I would be moving back to Oklahoma (something I told myself at the time that I would never do). I agree that the summers can be brutal (though I actually think the dry Oklahoma summers are worse) but the springs and falls are especially nice out there. I miss not really having to worry about tornadoes. I miss the greenery and general lushness of the region and the tree-lined streets. The only place in central Oklahoma that looks anything like it is the Heritage Hills neighborhood.

I guess we've had very different experiences in both places. I've never lived anywhere else in the state so maybe other areas have a different vibe/experience. To each their own. :)

You have a point about the greenery and trees, though that's being devastated by Kudzu in a lot of areas (its still green I suppose!). I haven't been back for about 8 years now, but even then it had changed so much since I was there a couple years before. Still, there are a lot of forested areas that are much better than you'll find in central Oklahoma, though NE OK can be pretty nice too. Even so, I prefer the "long/wide" landscape views you can get here vs in that area (unless you're on top of a mountain). The sunrises and sunsets can't be beat here. When I first came to OK, tornadoes terrified me. I guess I'm used to them now and they don't really bother me so much. I just stay as prepared as possible. Driving in Ch/Mk was the worst. Not just traffic, but finding stuff in the crazy, antebellum-era street layouts was frustrating. You get used to it like anything else I suppose, but it's so much better here for me. Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like people there were just obnoxious and annoying, even those I counted as friends. Rude, condescending, and downright asshole-ish people were in abundance and the few incredibly kind people I met didn't' make up for it to me. Hands down, there are no friendlier, kinder people (even to strangers) than in OK.

But if we're talking just visiting, I definitely love the outer banks and all along the coasts of both Carolinas. Just not during hurricane season. :D

HangryHippo
02-06-2018, 06:59 AM
Hands down, there are no friendlier, kinder people (even to strangers) than in OK.
I've lived all over and this is true.

TheTravellers
02-06-2018, 08:47 AM
.... Hands down, there are no friendlier, kinder people (even to strangers) than in OK.

...

But deep down, they can still be incredibly racist and homophobic (personal experience from speaking with a lot of "nice" people (co-workers, etc., not friends because I don't count as friends people that are racist and homophobic) here).

u50254082
02-06-2018, 09:37 AM
Are the assertions about our politics being overly religious actually true?

Or to frame it within the idea that context matters, is the religious influence in our politics any worse than a nearby Bible belt state that some of you would consider more progressive?

I'm not religious myself and it hasn't been hard to live my life that way in OK. We do have blue laws but they are slowly going away and it's not like a law has been passed for mandatory Bible class in public school so someone will have to clue me in.

And to counter some opinions stated so far, I love that we are a red state. I'll leave it at that since I'm sure that alone is enough to trigger some folks.

Bellaboo
02-06-2018, 09:40 AM
But deep down, they can still be incredibly racist and homophobic (personal experience from speaking with a lot of "nice" people (co-workers, etc., not friends because I don't count as friends people that are racist and homophobic) here).

There are racists and homophobic folks everywhere. Oklahoma does not OWN the market in this regard.

stjohn
02-06-2018, 09:48 AM
Are the assertions about our politics being overly religious actually true?

Or to frame it within the idea that context matters, is the religious influence in our politics any worse than a nearby Bible belt state that some of you would consider more progressive?

I'm not religious myself and it hasn't been hard to live my life that way in OK. We do have blue laws but they are slowly going away and it's not like a law has been passed for mandatory Bible class in public school so someone will have to clue me in.

And to counter some opinions stated so far, I love that we are a red state. I'll leave it at that since I'm sure that alone is enough to trigger some folks.

Yeah, I think it's fair to say they are.

http://www.newsweek.com/oklahoma-teachers-are-not-too-pleased-about-bill-ban-ap-us-history-308129

There are crazy examples from other states too, but Oklahoma is as bad as any.

chuck5815
02-06-2018, 09:50 AM
But deep down, they can still be incredibly racist and homophobic (personal experience from speaking with a lot of "nice" people (co-workers, etc., not friends because I don't count as friends people that are racist and homophobic) here).

He's got all the good buzzwords in there. Nice work, dude.

bchris02
02-06-2018, 10:22 AM
Are the assertions about our politics being overly religious actually true?

Or to frame it within the idea that context matters, is the religious influence in our politics any worse than a nearby Bible belt state that some of you would consider more progressive?


I would say it is true in terms of the legislature. Low voter turnout among the general population but high turnout among fundamentalists and a lower minority population than other Southern states allow religious conservative candidates to punch above their weight in this state. In terms of the overall culture, I would say from my experience Arkansas, parts of rural Texas, and eastern Tennessee are more hardcore religious than Oklahoma.

jerrywall
02-06-2018, 10:23 AM
There are racists and homophobic folks everywhere. Oklahoma does not OWN the market in this regard.

I was gonna say this. If someone can point out somewhere in the US, much less the world, where this isn't true please tell me an I'll move there. Even some of the most liberal states in the US have extreme race and LGBTQ issues.

Bunty
02-06-2018, 12:50 PM
This is counter-intuitive to a lot of people’s gut sensibilities, but raising the legislators’ pay to $100K and setting up a situation where it really is a full-time job might be an approach that brings more serious people into the picture.

Instead, legislators deserved a pay cut and actually got it. $100K would be too attractively high, and make legislators worry too much about what to do to keep their seats. $50K would be more like it.

Why give legislators more to do, like have longer sessions to come up with stupid, oppressive laws? It's already bad enough how the state capitol has been described as a place where solutions are running around in search of a problem.

Bunty
02-06-2018, 12:52 PM
This is counter-intuitive to a lot of people’s gut sensibilities, but raising the legislators’ pay to $100K and setting up a situation where it really is a full-time job might be an approach that brings more serious people into the picture.

Instead, legislators deserved a pay cut and actually got it. $100K would be too attractively high, and make legislators worry too much about what to do to keep their seats. $50K would be more like it.

Why give legislators more to do, like have longer sessions to come up with more stupid, oppressive laws? It's already bad enough how the state capitol has been described as a place where solutions are running around in search of a problem.

Zuplar
02-06-2018, 02:48 PM
Pretty much only reason I've stayed is family. With the recent passing of my father I've debated about having the conversation with my wife about moving. Her family is still here so I know that's going to be a big thing to overcome, but if we are going to do it would like to while my daughter is still young.

The weather here is downright atrocious. In the fall you get maybe a couple weeks of decent weather before it gets bitter and spring you have to worry about storm season, but again a couple weeks. I feel as though you get about a month to at most 2 months of decent weather. Other than that it's too hot, too cold, too windy, or some combination.

Horrible roads. Overall where I live 90% of the roads I drive on day to day are absolute garbage. I rarely go even the speed limit unless on the interstate.

Education as many have point out is bad. I know there are great teachers to some extent in every district, but overall I worry about sending my child to public school. I went to Mustang and it was a joke, didn't even remotely prepare kids for college. I can think of one teacher that had any impact in my life while there. I will say it was a safe environment.

I do enjoy the outdoors here though, especially when I escape the metro. Lots of variety like someone else said which makes it nice. I really enjoy the lakes as well.

People here generally tend to be nice, but with the exception of my travels to NYC most people have been fairly nice.

Affordability is also a major plus. I've been able to buy me a nice house in the City and still able to buy acreage out in the country. Best of both worlds.

Familiarity also keeps me here. Lived here my whole life. I know where I'm going most of the time, and there is something to be said about that.


In general if my wife is okay with us moving I'm gone. Growing up I always wanted to leave, and while I may change my mind if and when I do, I think for me it' s the experience of living somewhere different that's appealing. I'd like to get it out of my system while I can and not have a regret that I should have moved.

BBatesokc
02-06-2018, 04:11 PM
I never really get all the hoopla and negativity regarding Oklahoma's weather. Oklahoma isn't a mild weather state like say California, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as some people portray it.

A quick Google search shows that only 3 months out of the year is our average low below freezing - and only 2 months out of the year is the average high over 90 degrees.

Sure, we experience all the seasons in Oklahoma. Its gets really hot at it's peak in the summer and can get really cold briefly in the middle of winter. But neither lasts very long. Personally, I like to experience all the seasons.

The wife and I are very outdoors people and love working our 2.5 acres. We enjoy our large fruit/vegetable garden, our pollinator garden, our bee hives, our wild berry patches, pond, chickens and wild tree areas. We get a season pass every year to the river sport area and the zoo. We couldn't enjoy any of those things with much frequency if Oklahoma's weather was as bad as some people like to claim it is.

bradh
02-06-2018, 04:16 PM
I'll miss storm season. I love winter, in doses, and I'm getting a full dose in MN right now, but I'm going to freaking love summer here.

Also, as a golfer, the wind gets super old in Oklahoma.

bchris02
02-06-2018, 04:33 PM
Pretty much only reason I've stayed is family. With the recent passing of my father I've debated about having the conversation with my wife about moving. Her family is still here so I know that's going to be a big thing to overcome, but if we are going to do it would like to while my daughter is still young.

The weather here is downright atrocious. In the fall you get maybe a couple weeks of decent weather before it gets bitter and spring you have to worry about storm season, but again a couple weeks. I feel as though you get about a month to at most 2 months of decent weather. Other than that it's too hot, too cold, too windy, or some combination.

Horrible roads. Overall where I live 90% of the roads I drive on day to day are absolute garbage. I rarely go even the speed limit unless on the interstate.

Education as many have point out is bad. I know there are great teachers to some extent in every district, but overall I worry about sending my child to public school. I went to Mustang and it was a joke, didn't even remotely prepare kids for college. I can think of one teacher that had any impact in my life while there. I will say it was a safe environment.

I do enjoy the outdoors here though, especially when I escape the metro. Lots of variety like someone else said which makes it nice. I really enjoy the lakes as well.

People here generally tend to be nice, but with the exception of my travels to NYC most people have been fairly nice.

Affordability is also a major plus. I've been able to buy me a nice house in the City and still able to buy acreage out in the country. Best of both worlds.

Familiarity also keeps me here. Lived here my whole life. I know where I'm going most of the time, and there is something to be said about that.


In general if my wife is okay with us moving I'm gone. Growing up I always wanted to leave, and while I may change my mind if and when I do, I think for me it' s the experience of living somewhere different that's appealing. I'd like to get it out of my system while I can and not have a regret that I should have moved.

I agree with most of these and can relate. Like I said in an earlier post, if you've never lived anywhere else I would definitely recommend it. It really helps give perspective even if you eventually move back. I also agree that you can't put a price on family. That's a big part of why I stay here. While my relationship with my family is definitely pretty tense at times, I worry that if I was to move off to either coast (which I would prefer) I would regret not being able to see my family more than once per year or so, especially since they are getting older and my sister is also currently fighting cancer.

On the other side of that, I can see myself regretting not having left. I really didn't want to move back here in 2012 but was pressured into doing so by my dad. Nowadays I would consider myself in a comfortable place. I still don't really want to be here yet I have certain things going for me here that I am reluctant to just throw away. Amenities have improved to the point where I don't find this place nearly as lacking as it used to be. As of now my plan is to stick around another couple of years until my finances are in a better place but I don't see myself still here in five years.


I'll miss storm season. I love winter, in doses, and I'm getting a full dose in MN right now, but I'm going to freaking love summer here.

Also, as a golfer, the wind gets super old in Oklahoma.

This is something I've never understood. I can understand being accustomed to storm season and not fearing it, but it's hard for me to understand anybody missing it. Yet, I've talked to many people who actually like the severe weather. In my opinion, the extremely destructive, dangerous spring weather is one of the biggest negatives about living here.