New CVS coming to the NW corner of NW 150th and MacArthur.

Just filed a $1.4 MM building permit application.

New CVS coming to the NW corner of NW 150th and MacArthur.

Just filed a $1.4 MM building permit application.

This area between 122nd and 164th between Portland and Council is really about to start seeing a lot more retail growth. The residential growth has been happening for some time but retail had not followed much beyond memorial but seems to be changing quickly.

^

It's all the continued flight to the Deer Creek school district.

I thought there was talk about a grocery store at NW 192nd/Danforth & North May a while back, any new information on that?

^

It's all the continued flight to the Deer Creek school district.

My best friend just moved out there for that reason. I hate it.

My best friend just moved out there for that reason. I hate it.

Where does this craziness end?

I hear people in Edmond now saying, "Edmond schools have gone downhill and we are moving to Deer Creek".

Same argument when people left OKC schools for Putnam City, then PC for Edmond.

Where does this craziness end?

I hear people in Edmond now saying, "Edmond schools have gone downhill and we are moving to Deer Creek".

Same argument when people left OKC schools for Putnam City, then PC for Edmond.

Run away from our problems. That's the Oklahoma way.

I hear people in Edmond now saying, "Edmond schools have gone downhill and we are moving to Deer Creek".


US News and World Reports begs to differ with these people.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/oklahoma

I think it's mainly the west Edmond schools people are now complaining about.

Many have [gasp] *apartment dwellers*!

I think it's mainly the west Edmond schools people are now complaining about.

Many have [gasp] *apartment dwellers*!

I think the complaint is *somewhat* valid, not because apartment dwellers are bad but because apartments create a sudden influx of students into the school that might not be able to handle that sudden growth.

Of course fleeing to a new district just moves the problem there, and now you are the cause.

Where does this craziness end?

I hear people in Edmond now saying, "Edmond schools have gone downhill and we are moving to Deer Creek".

Same argument when people left OKC schools for Putnam City, then PC for Edmond.

White flight.

White flight.

Corwin,
My family participated in "White Flight" inadvertantly. Simple reason, we were ready to build a new home and the available areas being developed on the South side were South of 89th (Cleveland county). We lived on S. W. 80th and built on S. W. 92nd. We weren't really aware of the term white flight until we move into our new home and people mentioned it to us. We had no kids in school at the time.
C. T.

US News and World Reports begs to differ with these people.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/oklahoma


Those that are concerned, and have been pretty vocal as of late, are not concerned with College Readiness, and/or AP scores of the area High Schools. I would guess that most are more concerned with the overall learning environment. The very visible change that has caused the concern within the Edmond districts over the past 3-5 years is really being seen at the grade school level. (No different than what was seen in the Putnam City district 8-10 years ago.) Parents are not the only ones concerned as there are a good number of Edmond teachers who are also trying to head west to the Deer Creek district. I am purely speculating, but I would guess that in 8-10 years from now..this list provided will look somewhat different.

This same link you provided doesn't list Deer Creek High School as one of the "Top" High schools, in Oklahoma.....yet, they list Deer Creek HS as having the exact same graduation rate, and same percentage for College Readiness as the #1 Rated HS, and Deer Creek ranks higher than the #2 and #3 HS on this list as well in both of those categories (that supposedly make up said rankings.)
Using that same website/article from US News, looking at school districts as a whole (and not individual schools) Deer Creek ranks #1 in college readiness.

Deer Creek 44.0
Edmond 42.7
Norman 38.5
Jenks 36.2


I think you'll find, and many Deer Creek administrators would agree, that these 3rd party/media School and District ratings, use student "diversity" as part of the equation in their overall ratings. And well, lets face it......Deer Creek probably won't measure up very well in that regards. <---- I'll leave that open for individual interpretation.

But at the end of the day, I'm certain you can get a good "public" education at any of the aforementioned schools....but there is a legitimate reason why just about everyone with school aged children are flocking to Deer Creek schools.

What does Deer Creek offer from Edmond aside from less racial and socioeconomic diversity? Unfortunately, this just seems like typical white flight migration patterns that actually have little to do with school/teacher quality... I'm sure Deer Creek's academic profile will continue to improve as those with the most means separate themselves from others. That's kind of how education, and specifically education rankings, in this country have worked for a while now...

Yep.

There is really no reason for these public school ratings at all. Just refer to the socioeconomics of an area as there is a complete and total correlation, apart from the aberration provided by a few magnet schools.

In regards to this CVS, and more importantly the Super WalMart at Memorial/Rockwell......will the Deer Creek school district reap the benefits of tax revenue? I'm uncultured swine, and do not know the specifics of such complicated subject matter. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

In regards to this CVS, and more importantly the Super WalMart at Memorial/Rockwell......will the Deer Creek school district reap the benefits of tax revenue? I'm uncultured swine, and do not know the specifics of such complicated subject matter. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Yes.

The benefit will be property tax and not sales tax. Sales tax funds city, county and state but not school districts.

I know it's just a CVS but it's pretty exciting as it's the first major retail development north of Kilpatrick and west of 74 (outside of the feed store and a snow cone stand). I live in the hood behind this and while there are NIMBYs who don't want to see anything like this, I'm frankly thrilled that I can walk to grab a gallon of milk if needed.

The benefit will be property tax and not sales tax. Sales tax funds city, county and state but not school districts.

Right, that is correct. Which is why TIF's -- which re-direct property taxes -- have such an impact on schools.

^

It's all the continued flight to the Deer Creek school district.

We live out there. Moved out there for the school district. I live in Lone Oak which connects directly to Deer Creek Elementary School. That was one of the selling points in buying our home. We liked being able to walk down the short side walk directly to the school. Had looked at Edmond, but it was just too crowded....didn't care for the traffic. Being a graduate of OKC Public Schools, I just didn't want my kids to go there. I am a survivor of the battle. Graduated from Northeast High School. I wasn't trying to participate in white flight. We were just looking for our first house and wanted to be in a good school district. Plus it's quiet out there...but I don't expect that to last.

nm

We live out there. Moved out there for the school district. I live in Lone Oak which connects directly to Deer Creek Elementary School. Had looked at Edmond, but it was just too crowded....didn't care for the traffic. Being a graduate of OKC Public Schools, I just didn't want my kids to go there. I am a survivor of the battle. Graduated from Northeast High School. I wasn't trying to participate in white flight. We were just looking for our first house and wanted to be in a good school district. Plus it's quiet out there.


It's a sad day and age, when you have to be somewhat apologetic for taking action on the betterment of your own children.

We live out there. Moved out there for the school district. I live in Lone Oak which connects directly to Deer Creek Elementary School. That was one of the selling points in buying our home. We liked being able to walk down the short side walk directly to the school. Had looked at Edmond, but it was just too crowded....didn't care for the traffic. Being a graduate of OKC Public Schools, I just didn't want my kids to go there. I am a survivor of the battle. Graduated from Northeast High School. I wasn't trying to participate in white flight. We were just looking for our first house and wanted to be in a good school district. Plus it's quiet out there...but I don't expect that to last.

You do what you have to do. Even though we live right in the downtown core and I walk a block every day to work, leaving my car in the garage, I spend 45 minutes in the morning and at least 30 minutes in the afternoon commuting my kid up north and back to private school. There are at least two very good elementary school options down here, but once she hits middle school (next year) all bets are off. I've heard Classen SAS is fantastic but there's no guarantee she'd get in. My understanding is that the feeder middle/high school for where we live is Northeast. So we stay with the commute. It's the choice we've made.

Edited to add sorry for continuing the derailment of this thread. It'd be nice if our closest CVS to here got a major overhaul. It's like a third-world country in there. They have the restroom key attached to an orange frisbee so it won't get stolen. Really bad.

Those that are concerned, and have been pretty vocal as of late, are not concerned with College Readiness, and/or AP scores of the area High Schools. I would guess that most are more concerned with the overall learning environment. The very visible change that has caused the concern within the Edmond districts over the past 3-5 years is really being seen at the grade school level. (No different than what was seen in the Putnam City district 8-10 years ago.) Parents are not the only ones concerned as there are a good number of Edmond teachers who are also trying to head west to the Deer Creek district. I am purely speculating, but I would guess that in 8-10 years from now..this list provided will look somewhat different.

This same link you provided doesn't list Deer Creek High School as one of the "Top" High schools, in Oklahoma.....yet, they list Deer Creek HS as having the exact same graduation rate, and same percentage for College Readiness as the #1 Rated HS, and Deer Creek ranks higher than the #2 and #3 HS on this list as well in both of those categories (that supposedly make up said rankings.)
Using that same website/article from US News, looking at school districts as a whole (and not individual schools) Deer Creek ranks #1 in college readiness.

Deer Creek 44.0
Edmond 42.7
Norman 38.5
Jenks 36.2


I think you'll find, and many Deer Creek administrators would agree, that these 3rd party/media School and District ratings, use student "diversity" as part of the equation in their overall ratings. And well, lets face it......Deer Creek probably won't measure up very well in that regards. <---- I'll leave that open for individual interpretation.

But at the end of the day, I'm certain you can get a good "public" education at any of the aforementioned schools....but there is a legitimate reason why just about everyone with school aged children are flocking to Deer Creek schools.
Deer Creek is a good school district. No doubt. I've been aware of how good of a district it is for the last 15 or so years. But don't know that I would say that people are leaving Edmond and flocking to Deer Creek schools. In the not too distant future Edmond will open up a 4th high school. That will be 4 6A high schools in what used to be a little bedroom community. There's a disconnect somewhere if people are proclaiming that there's a mass exodus from Edmond and they're all flocking to Deer Creek yet Edmond is having to build another high school.

I graduated from PC North. At the time, a lot of the same things were said about the PC district as are being said about DC now. PC was of the best school districts in the metro, people moved out toward PCN because it was quiet out there and not so crowded. Now look what's left behind. Another poster on here once described it as the rolling ghetto - what was once the place to be is now the forgotten and run down. It continuously happens as people move further out to get away from it all and live in a nice quiet area. I hope that DC doesn't become the next PC.

It's a sad day and age, when you have to be somewhat apologetic for taking action on the betterment of your own children.

Did someone ask for an apology in this thread or anywhere else? White flight is a huge problem in our society that we need to deal with, but decisions about where/why to live are also complex. No one is, or should be, castigating people... And I'm sure Patrick and others make decisions based on many factors. I would never point a finger of blame at someone I don't know for a large, multifaceted social problem.

The biggest point I (and others) made in this thread is that school rankings and quality are just reflections of higher SES demographics. A teacher or school could actually be of better quality and would still show up as worse by almost all metrics the public accesses. Of course, the very existence of these rankings then pulls lots of people with means to that area. It's cyclical and the end result is SES and racial segregation, which is very bad for our society at large. Anyway...

This issue isn't about where people choose to live...

It's where and how municipalities choose to allow new construction.

Unfortunately, it looks like I will be making a similar move in the next couple of years. Though, I have gotten my wife to compromise on location in Edmond. Closer in to the core in older neighborhoods is where I want to be. I've struggled with feeling super guilty about contributing to the cycle, but unfortunately, my opinions and desires are not the only ones that matter in my marriage.

No one is, or should be, castigating people...

Hey, whoa. No one's talking about cutting someone's testes off.

Hey, whoa. No one's talking about cutting someone's testes off.

lol

Did someone ask for an apology in this thread or anywhere else? White flight is a huge problem in our society that we need to deal with, but decisions about where/why to live are also complex. No one is, or should be, castigating people... And I'm sure Patrick and others make decisions based on many factors. I would never point a finger of blame at someone I don't know for a large, multifaceted social problem.

The biggest point I (and others) made in this thread is that school rankings and quality are just reflections of higher SES demographics. A teacher or school could actually be of better quality and would still show up as worse by almost all metrics the public accesses. Of course, the very existence of these rankings then pulls lots of people with means to that area. It's cyclical and the end result is SES and racial segregation, which is very bad for our society at large. Anyway...
What are you going to do? Tell white people they can't move so they can't be around a lot of other white people?

What are you going to do? Tell white people they can't move so they can't be around a lot of other white people?

No, obviously not. But there are numerous efforts that can be made towards convincing people to integrate schools, not telling them they can't move somewhere (which would be absurd).

A starting point is actually engaging people in a conversation about the issue. A lot of parents don't even consider looking at more diverse schools specifically because they look at rankings that just reflect SES status, not necessarily school/teacher quality. Most people do not understand how these issues are addressed. On a larger scale, the way school and district lines are drawn should be discussed.

HERE (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/563/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-two) is a good two part This American Life series on how some districts have promoted integration. Part 1 details integration problems and part 2 works towards solutions.

Numerous research studies have shown that integration is maybe the most proven measure for improving overall student outcomes.

No, obviously not. But there are numerous efforts that can be made towards convincing people to integrate schools, not telling them they can't move somewhere (which would be absurd).

A starting point is actually engaging people in a conversation about the issue. A lot of parents don't even consider looking at more diverse schools specifically because they look at rankings that just reflect SES status, not necessarily school/teacher quality. Most people do not understand how these issues are addressed. On a larger scale, the way school and district lines are drawn should be discussed.

HERE (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/563/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-two) is a good two part This American Life series on how some districts have promoted integration. Part 1 details integration problems and part 2 works towards solutions.

Numerous research studies have shown that integration is maybe the most proven measure for improving overall student outcomes.

A starting point would be to engage conservation on the issue? What do you want them to talk about? To justify why they do what they are free to be able to do in a free country?

A starting point would be to engage conservation on the issue? What do you want them to talk about? To justify why they do what they are free to be able to do in a free country?

Did you read my post or just skip it and go back to your already planned response?

Did you read my post or just skip it and go back to your already planned response?I read it. So you just want to present that link and what do you expect them to say?

I read it. So you just want to present that link and what do you expect them to say?

Who? The people that just moved to Deer Creek? I don't know. How about you take them the information, get a reaction, and report back? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but quit beating around the bush and make it. I've clearly articulated that this is a large scale problem that needs to be addressed on multiple levels. I also specifically said that I'm not pointing fingers at any specific people.

On a personal level, I think most people lack information on how schools are rated and how segregation effects our society. I am in favor of increasing dialogue. At the community, district, and state levels there are fixes in the ways district lines are drawn and schools are assessed and funded. Long term, I hope people pursue those legislative solutions.

You seem to want to make some point about individual freedom, but I've never challenged people's right to make personal or family decisions. But public schools, by their very existence, exist for the common good (see Thomas Jefferson's arguments in the Virginia legislature from the 1700s for more on that). That's why we have public schools. So, there's obviously a communal concern in schooling decisions. Otherwise, every family would just hire personal tutors. ;)

Who? The people that just moved to Deer Creek? I don't know. How about you take them the information, get a reaction, and report back? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but quit beating around the bush and make it. I've clearly articulated that this is a large scale problem that needs to be addressed on multiple levels. I also specifically said that I'm not pointing fingers at any specific people.

On a personal level, I think most people lack information on how schools are rated and how segregation effects our society. I am in favor of increasing dialogue. At the community, district, and state levels there are fixes in the ways district lines are drawn and schools are assessed and funded. Long term, I hope people pursue those legislative solutions.

You seem to want to make some point about individual freedom, but I've never challenged people's right to make personal or family decisions. But public schools, by their very existence, exist for the common good (see Thomas Jefferson's arguments in the Virginia legislature from the 1700s for more on that). That's why we have public schools. So, there's obviously a communal concern in schooling decisions. Otherwise, every family would just hire personal tutors. ;)The point I'm making, dankrutka, is that parents should not have to attend a meeting and basically defend why they do what it is they do without being accused of being racist. Yeah, I'll be that guy and pull the race card here because that is exactly the kind of vibe I'm getting that you're pushing but don't want to say.

If that is not what you're alluding to, than my apologies. But these parents should be able to located where they feel is best for their kids. If the city schools are failing, then the city should do something and take initiative to fix it. 600,000k people live in OKC. Why is a city the large failing behind a city of less than 100k like Edmond. You would think a larger city would have more resources to make for better schools.

If you are going to blame it on sprawl and resources spread thin, then that is something else the city can vote on. Raise taxes, which it seems they are doing for new developments further from the core. What is the reason schools within the core aren't anything below top notch? Why is Edmond North the best school in Oklahoma and not any highschool inside the I-40/I-235/I-44 loop? I'm asking genuine questions here, not trying to be snarky. Surely these schools can be made good without having to point fingers at those who choose to live in Deer Creek.

Almost nothing you said responds to anything I've said.

And I've already explained why Edmond or Deer Creek schools are considered better. Go back and re-read the posts in this thread. Pete said it one sentence.

Almost nothing you said responds to anything I've said.

And I've already explained why Edmond or Deer Creek schools are considered better. Go back and re-read the posts in this thread. Pete said it one sentence.

What makes them better?

What makes them better?

School ratings almost exactly correlate with socioeconomic status. A poorer school could have better teachers and teaching, and come out with lower metrics. It's cyclical and self-reinforcing. Anyway, if we'd like to continue discussing this we should probably find a different thread.