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Jersey Boss
03-24-2016, 12:47 PM
Tipped employees receive the balance between $2.13/hour and $7.25/hour from the employer if the balance isn't made up by tips, they do not make just $2.13/hour if they suck and don't get any tips.

Do you know of any tipped employees that have had the balance made up by their employer? While this is the way it is supposed to be I doubt the reality is such. Any servers here to comment? How do you differentiate the good servers from bad if you are expected to tip before service is rendered? Do you endorse the concept of tipping for counter service? What is the justification?

sooner88
03-24-2016, 12:55 PM
It's always interesting to me how restaurants decide to add the tip line on receipts. I've noticed places like Freebirds even do.

OkiePoke
03-24-2016, 01:17 PM
It's always interesting to me how restaurants decide to add the tip line on receipts. I've noticed places like Freebirds even do.

Why wouldn't they? It is free money.

TheTravellers
03-24-2016, 02:20 PM
It's always interesting to me how restaurants decide to add the tip line on receipts. I've noticed places like Freebirds even do.

Probably the default for their software, might as well leave it and make some free money (as OkiePoke said).

Urbanized
03-24-2016, 02:24 PM
If there is a tip line, it would be against the law for the restaurant to keep the money. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it would be breaking federal labor law.

That said, I also am completely irritated by being prompted for a tip for counter service. If someone waits on me, I am a generous tipper. If someone rings me up, I fetch my own drink, fetch my food when it's ready, and bus my own table? Why in the hell am I being asked for a tip again?

Pete
03-24-2016, 02:27 PM
^

I feel exactly the same way and hate feeling bad for having to line out the tip line while the person taking my money is standing right there.

They even do the tip line thing at Dominos and other pizza places where the whole point is you are going way out of your way to pick something up and save them time and money.

Urbanized
03-24-2016, 02:37 PM
^

I feel exactly the same way and hate feeling bad for having to line out the tip line while the person taking my money is standing right there...

Which is totally part of the reason they do it.

Anonymous.
03-24-2016, 03:17 PM
I have had a bartender place my change from a $20 (I got one drink) UNDERNEATH a tip jar. Like they lifted up the jar/vase and set it back down on top of my money, whilst having my hand out to receive it. I was so taken back, I looked at her to see if she was joking/smiling - and she went about the next order like it was normal routine.

I was so offended that I continued to go to that specific bartender the rest of the night and proceed to tip nothing each time.

Tipping has gotten out of control, and it is the government's fault for letting restaurant/bar owners get away with it.


Anyways back to topic, I am enjoying reading the reviews, can't wait to check this place out this summer.

dankrutka
03-24-2016, 04:46 PM
I post this every time the tipping discussion comes up: Should Tipping Be Banned? - Freakonomics Freakonomics (http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/)

It convinced me. I'm in favor of banning tipping.

Pete
03-24-2016, 04:53 PM
I post this every time the tipping discussion comes up: Should Tipping Be Banned? - Freakonomics Freakonomics (http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/)

It convinced me. I'm in favor of banning tipping.

Very interesting stuff.

I hate the whole idea behind tipping. There are tons and tons of jobs where service is provided and tipping has never been in the equation.

Why not just pay people in restaurants and bars fairly and train and reward them to provide good service, which is exactly happens in every other type of job in the U.S.?


I've never felt waiters and bartenders provide better service than anyone else and they are typically paid -- if you include tips -- way better than most others in service jobs.

BBatesokc
03-24-2016, 04:55 PM
Correct on the old school way of thinking. TIPS = To Insure Proper Service. Originally, tips were given up front to make sure you got taken care of.

To be fair, the practice of tipping was imported from Europe and was often considered a reinforcement of the separation of classes - offered by the wealthy to the socially inferior. Not to mention, 20% was certainly not the 'norm' for a very long time. I worked as a bartender for several years. While I can see where To INSURE Prompt Service (TIPS) might imply paying in advance, I don't believe I've every actually seen it described in that order in anything I've ever read. I guess I could Google it, but its hard enough to type this on my phone.

Plutonic Panda
03-24-2016, 06:43 PM
Man, I just don't understand this kind of stuff. If you don't like tipping, fine, don't tip. But you want to go and ban it for everyone? Let's ban tips and smoking inside of a CIGAR bar. lol okay.*(Not referring to a single poster just more towards what I have seen on OKCTalk in general so that includes me)* I'm going to start to keep a list and adding to it every time I hear someone wanting to ban something that they could simply just not participate in. It's a person freedom thing. If I own a business and want my coworkers who have worked their asses off to be able and have the opportunity to make a tip I should be able to. But you want to ban that so I can't choose to have that system in my business? A business I own in a supposedly free country?

I haven't read that article and honestly probably won't because this isn't a big issue to me in this single instance but it just gets annoying seeing people wanting to ban everything they like.

ctchandler
03-24-2016, 09:25 PM
I don't know anybody that works for tips, so can't answer this, but I'd be surprised if people went home after work and only got paid $2.13/hour, it's against the law (and yes, I know wage theft violations happen all the time, everywhere, but do you think anybody would work for someone for long if all they got was $2.13/hour?)
TheTravellers,
What is against the law? Waitstaff is exempt from minimum wage law if that's what you are referring to. Just curious what you meant.
C. T.

Uptowner
03-25-2016, 01:16 AM
So you think the service would be just as good as if the servers made ohh say $10/hr vs tipped up to $25 at high end establishments or bars? Let's look at some jobs that pay the same per hour no matter how fast they work COMBINED with the fact that to keep the prices where you're satisfied and "getting a jolly good bargain" they have to reduce staff.

Home Depot
Sam's club
Fast food in general
The mother freaking postal service

Now if you think $14.99 for the enchilada platter was a lot with a $3 tip on top. How about the enchiladas cost $20 to pay everyone's labor + they're no longer motivated to hustle via a "harder work = higher pay" model.

I've been to all sorts of countries with no tipping. And the service sucks!! With the exception of France. Where there actually IS tipping, just not at a percentage rate. I.e. If your server was impressive you leave him a euro or two. He took excellent care of your medium sized party and paired all the wines, a tenner.

And the reason it doesn't work like 8-5 jobs is it takes a lot of abuse from customers and many hours of behind the scenes scrubbing and scraping gum from under tables, polishing silverware hours on end, getting yelled at because the kitchen read the order wrong and put onions on the Jack Daniels glazed sirloin and now it has to be remade because they can't stand the taste of onions and they're demanding a free meal. Children are screaming. What do you mean it's not gluten free??? Hell they deserve it. It only gets worse when alcohol is involved.

You think the average person with a bachelors in applied science wants to put up with that anywhere until 11pm-3am AND work every single holiday, you think they'd want to work the weekends for the same $/hr that they'd make coasting on a Monday lunch? Missing all the parties, all the sporting events, all the concerts? It takes a special breed.

I know I tend to get a little ranty but after working everything from grocery to burger flipper to auto parts to bartending before getting my career off the ground. I definitely throw my hat into the "tipping is good and ensures quality service" ring. I drop a couple bucks in the jar for Mongolian BBQ or burrito bars. A buck for counter service if the teller is polite and helpful.

PS at cultivar today our cashier came and dropped the food and asked if we wanted anything from the bar. That's a step forward! On a sad note the quality had dropped. Someone forgot to toss the lamb in the adobo sauce. Hopefully an isolated incident.

TheTravellers
03-25-2016, 10:28 AM
TheTravellers,
What is against the law? Waitstaff is exempt from minimum wage law if that's what you are referring to. Just curious what you meant.
C. T.

This is what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States says:

The American federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 per hour be paid to employees that receive at least $30 per month in tips. If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour during any pay period, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate.

ctchandler
03-25-2016, 03:50 PM
This is what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States says:

The American federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 per hour be paid to employees that receive at least $30 per month in tips. If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour during any pay period, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate.

TheTravellers,
I believe this only applies to restaurants doing business across state lines (inter-state commerce). Places like Cultivar are covered by state laws, not federal laws. A good example would be Ted's Cafe Escondido, they started with one store on 68th and N. May, expanded in Oklahoma and the federal law didn't apply, now they are in Kansas and Missouri so the federal law does apply in all locations. I stand to be corrected, but I'm fairly sure I am correct on this.
C. T.

TheTravellers
03-25-2016, 05:32 PM
TheTravellers,
I believe this only applies to restaurants doing business across state lines (inter-state commerce). Places like Cultivar are covered by state laws, not federal laws. A good example would be Ted's Cafe Escondido, they started with one store on 68th and N. May, expanded in Oklahoma and the federal law didn't apply, now they are in Kansas and Missouri so the federal law does apply in all locations. I stand to be corrected, but I'm fairly sure I am correct on this.
C. T.

Tipped employee labor law doesn't have anything to do with interstate commerce (I don't think), just that different states have different requirements for tipped employees and credits and all the other weirdness that goes into that. Here's some info that backs me up on this, I believe (I can't find anything from OK's Dept of Labor - their website sucks, none of their statues/rules/laws are online there, and the state statutes don't appear to address tipped employees):

Some FAQs About Tipped Employees and the Minimum Wage - Hasbrook & Hasbrook (http://www.oklahomalawyer.com/some-faqs-about-tipped-employees-and-the-minimum-wage/)

Relevant part of that link is this:

2. What is the minimum wage for a tipped employee? The minimum wage for almost all Oklahoma workers under both federal and state law is $7.25/hour. Employers are required to make sure their tipped employees are receiving that minimum wage.

That is supposed to be accomplished in two ways:

a. Oklahoma employers are required to pay tipped employees base pay of $3.625/hour. That’s half the required minimum wage. That is Oklahoma’s requirement, which exceeds the federal required base pay for tipped employed of $2.13/hour. Oklahoma employers must meet the state requirement.

b. If an employee earns enough tips to cover the other half of the minimum wage, an employer is allowed to treat those tips as a “tip credit” and consider the minimum wage as met. However, if the tips are not enough to cover the remaining half of the minimum wage, the employer must pay the remainder, so that the tipped employee ends up earning the minimum.

For example, Jo, an excellent waitress at an upscale restaurant, makes $15/hour in tips. Janeen, an average waitress at a burger joint, makes $7/hour in tips. Jim, who really needs to find another line of work, makes $2/hour in tips.

Jo’s, Janeen’s and Jim’s Oklahoma employers pay each of them base pay of $3.625/hour. Jo’s and Janeen’s tips are enough to cover the remainder of their minimum wage as a “tip credit.” Joe is still coming up short; his employer must pay an additional $1.625/hour to bring Joe’s wage up to the minimum.

Fact Sheet - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - U.S. Department of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.htm)

So I'm curious as to what Ted's situation was - was the employer only paying employees $3.63 (apparently the OK tipped employee minimum wage because of the 50% tip credit?) and not the full wage if they didn't make enough tips? Or something else? If the former, then I believe the employees may have had a case they could've filed against Ted's with the OK DOL.

Uptowner
03-25-2016, 06:02 PM
Ok state law says employers must make up the difference if a $2.13/hr employee is not tipped up to $7.25. I would imagine that follows the federal minimum wage act.

ctchandler
03-25-2016, 06:45 PM
Ok state law says employers must make up the difference if a $2.13/hr employee is not tipped up to $7.25. I would imagine that follows the federal minimum wage act.

Uptowner,
If it is in fact a state law (and I have no reason to doubt you), that's a completely different ballgame. My only question to TheTravellers was whether the federal government had the right to enforce labor laws on restaurants that didn't do business outside of Oklahoma. And to answer TheTravellers question about Ted's, I was only using it as an example of a company that started out in OKC and then expanded into other states. They would be under state laws until the expansion and then federal laws would apply. So, now we don't have to "duke it out"! I was going to ask my friend at Old Chicago's but then it dawned on me that they have always been multi-state while they were in Oklahoma. And of all things, my granddaughter works at Cool Greens, an OKC restaurant(s) but I didn't think to ask her. Now, I don't need to.
C. T.

ctchandler
03-25-2016, 06:54 PM
Since we have totally gone off topic with this "Tip" thing, a couple of things come to mind. Somebody said that at one time you would tip in advance "To insure proper service". Well, what if your wait person doesn't care, you tip and they burn you with lousy service. Reminds me of a fellow worker at Hertz that was lazy. He wondered why he didn't advance and got poor reviews/raises. I told him to work harder and they would pay him more and his response was "If they would pay me more, I would work harder". I have done a lot of traveling and eaten at places that I will never go to again. Why tip? They will never see me again. I tip to show appreciation for good service. It doesn't matter that I will never be served by the server again. I don't know if how I do it is good or bad, but I do know that at the places I frequent, I am treated like royalty.
I think I'm done!
C. T.
p.s My opinion has to do with the tenth amendment to the constitution and my 72 years of living in this country. Of course, the 72 years could be all baloney, but I have picked up a few things along the way.

Uptowner
03-25-2016, 07:07 PM
Uptowner,
If it is in fact a state law (and I have no reason to doubt you), that's a completely different ballgame. My only question to TheTravellers was whether the federal government had the right to enforce labor laws on restaurants that didn't do business outside of Oklahoma. And to answer TheTravellers question about Ted's, I was only using it as an example of a company that started out in OKC and then expanded into other states. They would be under state laws until the expansion and then federal laws would apply. So, now we don't have to "duke it out"! I was going to ask my friend at Old Chicago's but then it dawned on me that they have always been multi-state while they were in Oklahoma. And of all things, my granddaughter works at Cool Greens, an OKC restaurant(s) but I didn't think to ask her. Now, I don't need to.
C. T.

Under no circumstances anywhere are you allowed to let someone work for less than $7.25. Supplemented by tips or not. That's a federal law that kicked in around 2010. I think the states have to add it as part of their elaborated Dept of labor statutes that include various immigrant labor laws, age restrictions, etc.

I remember this from a restaurant I invested in a few years ago where the poor kids working lunch the first few weeks weren't making enough tips to meet minimum wage. So the accountant supplemented hourly to get up to minimum and within a few weeks they we're humming along and happy.

Uptowner
03-25-2016, 07:08 PM
Since we have totally gone off topic with this "Tip" thing, a couple of things come to mind. Somebody said that at one time you would tip in advance "To insure proper service". Well, what if your wait person doesn't care, you tip and they burn you with lousy service. Reminds me of a fellow worker at Hertz that was lazy. He wondered why he didn't advance and got poor reviews/raises. I told him to work harder and they would pay him more and his response was "If they would pay me more, I would work harder". I have done a lot of traveling and eaten at places that I will never go to again. Why tip? They will never see me again. I tip to show appreciation for good service. It doesn't matter that I will never be served by the server again. I don't know if how I do it is good or bad, but I do know that at the places I frequent, I am treated like royalty.
I think I'm done!
C. T.
p.s My opinion has to do with the tenth amendment to the constitution and my 72 years of living in this country. Of course, the 72 years could be all baloney, but I have picked up a few things along the way.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/09/what-is-the-origin-of-the-word-tip-as-in-leaving-a-tip/

This is the first thing Google pulled up on etymology for "tip" but I assure its not an acronym for "to insure proper service" that actually a little aggravating to let people think you get bad service of you don't tip up front. The people at jimmy's egg make the same hourly as mahogany. The difference is tips and professionalism. Harder work, better service, higher ticket prices, better tips. The waiters in fine dining make upwards of 50k a year.

So T.I.P.S. > I alway pay cash in bars. And I usually tip big up front followed up by a buck a round, this does make the service come faster and the pours a little heavier. But I'd never apply this to a restaurant.

TheTravellers
03-25-2016, 07:27 PM
... My only question to TheTravellers was whether the federal government had the right to enforce labor laws on restaurants that didn't do business outside of Oklahoma.....
C. T.

I'm pretty sure that yes, they do have that right, and almost all states adhere to/defer to federal labor law for the most part.

ctchandler
03-25-2016, 08:30 PM
I'm pretty sure that yes, they do have that right, and almost all states adhere to/defer to federal labor law for the most part.

Then my question is, what gives the states right to the federal government to control wages? I would like to know what "loophole" they found to dictate wages to the states. I will do some research.
C. T.

2Lanez
03-25-2016, 09:17 PM
Harder work, better service, higher ticket prices, better tips. The waiters in fine dining make upwards of 50k a year.

If you're a good waiter or bartender with a good gig, you are making well above this. Even here in OKC.

Urbanized
03-26-2016, 09:35 AM
^^^^^^^^^
This is true. I know a number of servers and bartenders who make $60K, $75K and more. And anybody who thinks a restaurant could support dozens of people at that wage by banning tips and raising prices has rocks in their head.

TheTravellers
03-26-2016, 04:01 PM
Then my question is, what gives the states right to the federal government to control wages? I would like to know what "loophole" they found to dictate wages to the states. I will do some research.
C. T.

I'm guessing this decision has something to do with the Fed Gov't being able to enforce the FLSA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Darby_Lumber_Co.

And from what I saw in perusing OK labor law is that there are a lot of references that "defer to" the FLSA or Federal law, they basically say "We follow the FLSA" or "We follow the Federal law with regard to blahblahblah", so that's probably how companies that are only in one state are subject to the FLSA or state laws/statutes/rules that are the same as or defer to the FLSA.

ctchandler
03-26-2016, 08:41 PM
I'm guessing this decision has something to do with the Fed Gov't being able to enforce the FLSA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Darby_Lumber_Co.

And from what I saw in perusing OK labor law is that there are a lot of references that "defer to" the FLSA or Federal law, they basically say "We follow the FLSA" or "We follow the Federal law with regard to blahblahblah", so that's probably how companies that are only in one state are subject to the FLSA or state laws/statutes/rules that are the same as or defer to the FLSA.

TheTravellers,
I have no problem if our elected officials choose to follow the federal guidelines.
C. T.

dankrutka
03-29-2016, 02:27 PM
I haven't read that article and honestly probably won't because this isn't a big issue to me in this single instance but it just gets annoying seeing people wanting to ban everything they like.

First, it's not about "banning everything," but making wise policy decisions for our society. There's no big legal difference between banning tips and requiring safe working conditions, overtime pay, and minimum wage. Or from preventing child labor. Do you think those are instances of "banning everything" also? Anyway, if you don't believe there should be pragmatic labor laws at all then that's fine, but just understand that it is totally within legal norms to ban tipping. We're just so socially used to tipping that we accept it.

Anyway, since you won't listen to the fact-filled podcast I posted, here's a shorter video from the new, great show Adam Ruins Everything:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k&index=25&list=PLuKg-WhduhkksJoqkj9aJEnN7v0mx8yxC
'

Plutonic Panda
03-29-2016, 02:30 PM
First, it's not about "banning everything," but making wise policy decisions for our society. There's no big legal difference between banning tips and requiring safe working conditions, overtime pay, and minimum wage. Or from preventing child labor. Do you think those are instances of "banning everything" also? Anyway, if you don't believe there should be smart labor laws at all then that's fine, but just understand that it is totally within legal norms to ban tipping. We're just so used to tipping that we accept it.

Anyway, since you won't listen to the fact-filled podcast I posted, here's a shorter video from the new, great show Adam Ruins Everything:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k&index=25&list=PLuKg-WhduhkksJoqkj9aJEnN7v0mx8yxC
'

Listen man, I get that there are probably some good points that support banning tips. But unless it is physically hurting people or the like, if I want to tip, I should be able to. It makes me feel better to reward someone for doing a good job and it is just not something that needs to be banned because a group of people don't like it. I'll check out that video though later. I'm at the library and I forgot my headphones.

dankrutka
03-29-2016, 02:38 PM
Listen man, I get that there are probably some good points that support banning tips. But unless it is physically hurting people or the like, if I want to tip, I should be able to. It makes me feel better to reward someone for doing a good job and it is just not something that needs to be banned because a group of people don't like it. I'll check out that video though later. I'm at the library and I forgot my headphones.

Watch the video, one of the biggest things research has shown is that people do not tip for better service (it accounts for less than 2% of tip differences), but instead tip far more based on factors like the race of their server (whites get more than black people when factoring in service) or physical appearance (women considered attractive make more than women considered less so). For servers, tipping encourages discriminatory pay, unstable income, and very few people reward good service. While you may think it's strange to take tipping away, do tip the employee who helped you find a great pair of jeans or the person at the DMV who helped with a problem? Not tipping is actually thr norm for you and all of us.

Plutonic Panda
03-29-2016, 02:40 PM
Watch the video, one of the biggest things research has shown is that people do not tip for better service (it accounts for less than 2% of tip differences), but instead tip far more based on factors like the race of their server (whites get more than black people when factoring in service) or physical appearance (women considered attractive make more than women considered less so). For servers, tipping encourages discriminatory pay, unstable income, and very few people reward good service. While you may think it's strange to take tipping away, do tip the employee who helped you find a great pair of jeans or the person at the DMV who helped with a problem? Not tipping is actually thr norm for you and all of us.I have never tipped based on race, sexual orientation, or anything like that.

dankrutka
03-29-2016, 04:05 PM
I have never tipped based on race, sexual orientation, or anything like that.

I am sure for most people this is subconscious. But that was also only one of many points. The main one being that people don't tip based on the quality of service, so why not just pay a set wage like other comparable service professions?

Uptowner
03-30-2016, 02:33 PM
I'm seeing the opening scene of reservoir dogs here. And dantrutka it totally Mr. Pink.

I don't think he realizes it's a skilled trade and it's extremely hard work to do it well. Why do mostly young people do it? Because it's extremely hard work. And it can chip away at your dignity by offering a sultan's service to jerks who don't tip on principle.

I think he's also is oblivious to the fact the those jeans he mentioned at the gap would cost about 15 bucks if it were the norm to tip retail.

A rough template for a Restraunt cost runs 30/30/30(net after tax) food/booze overhead and labor. And you hope to Christ by the time you pay for maintainence and improvements you keep a nickel on the dollar. Obviously for prime steak the wine and steak costs are astronomical but the price per person makes up for it. At McDowell's(coming to America reference, boom) food cost would be under %10 but they're always fighting the labor beast because it takes a lot of $1 cheeseburgers to fulfill the payroll. But your average joint is 30/30/30.

Now let's say at your 30/30/30 store, server labor jumps from 2.13 to $12 an hour (WHICH btw no good server in town would work for btw, they would use their college degrees and go get an office job) that's a %560 increase in floor labor. 8 people on the floor x13 hours a day to operate 11am to 10pm with an extra hour each end for daily duties. That's $1,024 a DAY increased cost...well over 400,000 by the time you pay employee matched FICA. Let's say you sell 2,000,000 a year in food n drink. That's a %20 increase in cost which will represent at LEAST %20 increase in retail price. If you're counting along that's THE SAME PRICE AS A TIP! HOLY SH!T why not leave a %20 tip for good service?!!?!?? At least you won't be getting served by scrubs making $12/hr that don't give a rat's if your fajitas werent sizzling or your iced tea wasn't refilled. And if that's happening in a tipping environment A) leave no tip and B) let the manager know. They'll soon fall in line or be replaced by someone who is VERY concerned that your fajitas are sizzling and your iced tea is topped off...but not before asking if it will mess up your mix of lemons and sweet & low. Jesus!


I'm done having this stupid conversation. Let's talk about cultivar instead.

I saw they got into a little trouble with the city over the size of their patio. But people were dining on it Saturday and hopefully this is resolved and they got that planter moved so peds can use the sidewalk. I had my first quesadilla there and it was killer, toasty, just the right amount t of filling and they will now substitute any protein you want inside. I did barbacao and it was really nice. I would love to see these guys add al pastor on the trombo spit eventually.

dankrutka
03-30-2016, 03:04 PM
I'm seeing the opening scene of reservoir dogs here. And dantrutka it totally Mr. Pink.

I don't think he realizes it's a skilled trade and it's extremely hard work to do it well. Why do mostly young people do it? Because it's extremely hard work. And it can chip away at your dignity by offering a sultan's service to jerks who don't tip on principle.

I think he's also is oblivious to the fact the those jeans he mentioned at the gap would cost about 15 bucks if it were the norm to tip retail.

A rough template for a Restraunt cost runs 30/30/30(net after tax) food/booze overhead and labor. And you hope to Christ by the time you pay for maintainence and improvements you keep a nickel on the dollar. Obviously for prime steak the wine and steak costs are astronomical but the price per person makes up for it. At McDowell's(coming to America reference, boom) food cost would be under %10 but they're always fighting the labor beast because it takes a lot of $1 cheeseburgers to fulfill the payroll. But your average joint is 30/30/30.

Now let's say at your 30/30/30 store, server labor jumps from 2.13 to $12 an hour (WHICH btw no good server in town would work for btw, they would use their college degrees and go get an office job) that's a %560 increase in floor labor. 8 people on the floor x13 hours a day to operate 11am to 10pm with an extra hour each end for daily duties. That's $1,024 a DAY increased cost...well over 400,000 by the time you pay employee matched FICA. Let's say you sell 2,000,000 a year in food n drink. That's a %20 increase in cost which will represent at LEAST %20 increase in retail price. If you're counting along that's THE SAME PRICE AS A TIP! HOLY SH!T why not leave a %20 tip for good service?!!?!?? At least you won't be getting served by scrubs making $12/hr that don't give a rat's if your fajitas werent sizzling or your iced tea wasn't refilled. And if that's happening in a tipping environment A) leave no tip and B) let the manager know. They'll soon fall in line or be replaced by someone who is VERY concerned that your fajitas are sizzling and your iced tea is topped off...but not before asking if it will mess up your mix of lemons and sweet & low. Jesus!


I'm done having this stupid conversation. Let's talk about cultivar instead.

You clearly didn't read my posts, listen to the podcast, or watch the videos I posted. I would never not tip in our current system. In fact, I believe in tipping generously for good service and I always tip. Long term and systematically, I believe that employers should provide full wages to their employees who should not have to rely on the whims and (subconscious) biases of customers. As for the argument that employers couldn't afford to pay their employees for their work, there is a lot of evidence that this is incorrect. There are places all over the world that have ended tipping for full wages and are succeeding. In the end, customers can pay the same amount and if an employee is worth keeping then an employer will pay her/him as such. Of course there could be legal and social adjustments required in making this system work, but that's not a good reason to keep a bad system.

Roger S
03-30-2016, 03:16 PM
Some high end restaurateurs have already started taking steps towards this... Tom Colicchio and Danny Meyer have both been vocal about ending tips in their restaurants.

Uptowner
03-30-2016, 03:34 PM
Dinner for four will run you about $500 at a colicchio restaurant before wine. I took the wife to heritage steak in Vegas and dinner for 2 was $500 with 2 bottles of upper tier California cab. Tipping $100 on 500 isnt exactly the same as $12 at red lobster is it?

And I don't need to listens to podcasts or YouTube vloggers to understand that people who regularly take abuse for a low paying, non-variable wage don't give a **** about their jobs. It's universal.

AP
03-30-2016, 03:38 PM
^You seem like a really fun person, tbh.

Roger S
03-30-2016, 03:50 PM
Dinner for four will run you about $500 at a colicchio restaurant before wine. I took the wife to heritage steak in Vegas and dinner for 2 was $500 with 2 bottles of upper tier California cab. Tipping $100 on 500 isnt exactly the same as $12 at red lobster is it?

I would have to say yes it is exactly... Tipping 20% is tipping 20% regardless of the setting..... Colicchio wants to add 22% to his menu price... If I was a server I would be acceptable to that... A guaranteed 22% against a variable % from a good tipper to nothing from a disgruntled diner.... Either way the consumer still pays for the service and knows exactly what they are paying up front without the anxiety of "How much should I tip this person?"...... It's really not much different than places that charge an automatic gratuity for parties larger than X in my opinion.

Now if the server isn't getting that 22% menu price increase... Then they know exactly who to take up the issue with rather than hoping the diner comes back at a later date so they can spit in their food.

dankrutka
03-30-2016, 03:56 PM
^You seem like a really fun person, tbh.

Right? I also appreciate the apology for a long attack directed at me for ideas I didn't express and views I don't hold. Goodness.

There's an interesting trend I've noticed lately from some posters who are openly hostile to research-based contributions. There's certainly no expectation that everyone needs to read everything posted on an internet forum or even that research should be privileged over experience or opinion. But two different posters have openly responded angrily to being presented with evidence on this thread as they emphatically explained no need to learn anything new on the topic!

If someone is not interested in new information or opinions then why even post on a topic?

Uptowner
03-30-2016, 04:30 PM
Now if the server isn't getting that 22% menu price increase... Then they know exactly who to take up the issue with rather than hoping the diner comes back at a later date so they can spit in their food.
I sincerely hope that's the case but not always. It doesn't work that way in construction. A lot of industries. I did fancy fine caterings toward the end of school. It was all weekend gigs but I was good at it so I got my pick of the parties, council persons, high profile doctors, lawyers, etc. the company charged $25/hr for my services but paid me $15. Luckily I regularly was tipped $100 for my "you sit back and enjoy your party, let me do everything." Service.

NOW of were talking about adding a %20 gratuity onto all checks and doing away with tipping. Okay. Sure. But that requires homogeneity. And then why would we still be arguing about servers making the same hourly as the people at the gap?

dankrutka
03-30-2016, 04:41 PM
NOW of were talking about adding a %20 gratuity onto all checks and doing away with tipping. Okay. Sure. But that requires homogeneity. And then why would we still be arguing about servers making the same hourly as the people at the gap?

First, including "gratuity" in all checks is the only thing I've seen proposed in this thread. Of course, it wouldn't be gratuity anymore, but just the cost of the meal that the employer puts towards server salary.

Second, who is arguing about servers making the same as GAP employees? Did someone suggest that somewhere?

Urban Pioneer
03-30-2016, 09:10 PM
^You seem like a really fun person, tbh.

lolz

pickles
03-30-2016, 09:11 PM
First, including "gratuity" in all checks is the only thing I've seen proposed in this thread. Of course, it wouldn't be gratuity anymore, but just the cost of the meal that the employer puts towards server salary.

Second, who is arguing about servers making the same as GAP employees? Did someone suggest that somewhere?

Some people are just hysterical. No biggie.

Anonymous.
03-31-2016, 08:27 AM
You clearly didn't read my posts, listen to the podcast, or watch the videos I posted. I would never not tip in our current system. In fact, I believe in tipping generously for good service and I always tip. Long term and systematically, I believe that employers should provide full wages to their employees who should not have to rely on the whims and (subconscious) biases of customers. As for the argument that employers couldn't afford to pay their employees for their work, there is a lot of evidence that this is incorrect. There are places all over the world that have ended tipping for full wages and are succeeding. In the end, customers can pay the same amount and if an employee is worth keeping then an employer will pay her/him as such. Of course there could be legal and social adjustments required in making this system work, but that's not a good reason to keep a bad system.

It isn't worth it, dank. People (especially this board) equate the stance of 'tipping is bad' as 'this person doesn't tip'. To them, just the entire notion that you are against tipping, means you are an a$$hole. The irony is that banning tipping would almost certainly benefit everyone involved in the service industry.


edited: thread moved.

Richard at Remax
03-31-2016, 09:21 AM
I am sure some of you have seen those ridiculous receipts from athletes and such in Vegas that are 100-200K cause they ordered the most expensive of everything. I remember one where the group was only there a few hours but the tab was was around $200K and the guy only left their server like ~$5K and that server went bonkers on social media saying that person was cheap and they should have received at least $40K in tip. I know some will say if they can afford that then they can afford to give that server more. C'mon now. Do you really think you did $40K worth of service?

I'm all for ending tips and making everything salary based and I don't mind paying a bit higher prices. Now if you are still inclined to tip on top of that it's on you.

dankrutka
03-31-2016, 09:39 AM
If there is a tip line, it would be against the law for the restaurant to keep the money. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it would be breaking federal labor law.

That said, I also am completely irritated by being prompted for a tip for counter service. If someone waits on me, I am a generous tipper. If someone rings me up, I fetch my own drink, fetch my food when it's ready, and bus my own table? Why in the hell am I being asked for a tip again?

Coffee places always get me. I just feel like I'm supposed to tip for some reason. Maybe it's because I often spend several hours at a time there or I feel like coffee shops are community spaces, but I always feel like I'm supposed to tip... I certainly wouldn't feel as obligated at Dominoes or even Cultivar. Anyone else feel that way?

checkthat
03-31-2016, 10:32 AM
Chef's perspective:


David Chang: The Restaurant Business Is About to Implode | GQ (http://www.gq.com/story/david-chang-resturant-business-challenges)

March 29, 2016
Food’s too cheap, tipping makes no sense, cooks are broke, and it’s damn near impossible to earn a living in this effed-up business. Chef Chang explains the coming restaurant apocalypse—and how we can all survive it.

...

So we must find a way to pay our cooks a living wage—which probably means we need to get rid of tipping.

At my newest place, Nishi, there’s no tipping; service is included in the prices on the menu. This allows restaurant owners to remix the way their “service” charges are distributed to their staff, which we gotta do if we’re going to hang on to the best kitchen talent.

TheTravellers
03-31-2016, 12:34 PM
As I've mentioned before - how do restaurants in Europe have really good servers and service and meals are still affordable, yet they don't tip (in general) over there? "Service charge" is added to the bill, yep, know about that, but do the servers just work for lower wages and are OK with it compared to servers here in the USA? How does it work over there yet it just can't ever work over here (according to a huge amount of people) or you'll have astronomically high food prices and/or really crappy servers?

Pete
03-31-2016, 01:07 PM
^

Not to mention there are dozens and dozens of other service jobs in the U.S. where people aren't tipped and it all seems to work out just fine.

It's not that you get crazy great service in restaurants and bars that you never get anywhere else.

If anything, I get worse service at bars than just about any other type of business. And yes, I'm polite and a good tipper.

sooner88
03-31-2016, 01:25 PM
I've always been told to tip when getting my haircut... I'm not sure if that is customary, but pretty much everyone I know does. It's another service where tipping seems unnecessary.

Pete
03-31-2016, 01:34 PM
I've always been told to tip when getting my haircut... I'm not sure if that is customary, but pretty much everyone I know does. It's another service where tipping seems unnecessary.

It wasn't customary until somewhat recently.

Don't know how that industry operated for so long and the workers didn't starve to death until this changed.:p

Jersey Boss
03-31-2016, 01:41 PM
It wasn't customary until somewhat recently.

Don't know how that industry operated for so long and the workers didn't starve to death until this changed.:p

I wonder if this changed at the same time that men were abandoning the traditional barbershop for stylists. It is also my understanding that the owner of the salon is not tip eligible.

TheTravellers
03-31-2016, 01:42 PM
I've always been told to tip when getting my haircut... I'm not sure if that is customary, but pretty much everyone I know does. It's another service where tipping seems unnecessary.

I go to the same place to get my hair cut, generally get the same guy, tip him decently since he can hold a conversation and does a good job (neither of which always happen when I get someone else, so I generally don't tip when I get someone else and they don't do as good as he does).

Jersey Boss
03-31-2016, 01:44 PM
As I've mentioned before - how do restaurants in Europe have really good servers and service and meals are still affordable, yet they don't tip (in general) over there? "Service charge" is added to the bill, yep, know about that, but do the servers just work for lower wages and are OK with it compared to servers here in the USA? How does it work over there yet it just can't ever work over here (according to a huge amount of people) or you'll have astronomically high food prices and/or really crappy servers?
Your post makes me think of those who argue that universal healthcare "just won't work in this country", regardless that the rest of the industrialized world has it. Nor is any other country with universal care looking at the USA system as worthy of implementation in their country.

Roger S
03-31-2016, 01:46 PM
I've always been told to tip when getting my haircut... I'm not sure if that is customary, but pretty much everyone I know does. It's another service where tipping seems unnecessary.

Considering it takes them longer to put on the apron than it does to buzz my head... Pretty much every $ I hand them should be considered a tip..... And I still go to an old school barber that does $5 haircuts..... He's making a monster profit on me! ;)

sooner88
03-31-2016, 01:49 PM
Considering it takes them longer to put on the apron than it does to buzz my head... Pretty much every $ I hand them should be considered a tip..... And I still go to an old school barber that does $5 haircuts..... He's making a monster profit on me! ;)

I've gone to the same barber for 15 years until recently. I thought the jump to $25 from $15 was still pretty good, but not compared to $5!

TheTravellers
03-31-2016, 01:51 PM
Your post makes me think of those who argue that universal healthcare "just won't work in this country", regardless that the rest of the industrialized world has it. Nor is any other country with universal care looking at the USA system as worthy of implementation in their country.

"American exceptionalism" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

Which to me is BS, we're not that unique, except that we have so much political nastiness/idiocy, and are an oligarchy/plutocracy basically run by corporate money right now, which a ton of other first-world countries aren't. If we could get over our stupid, horrible, divisive politics and get out from under our corporate rule, we might have a chance for things that work for other countries to work here, but the corporations will not allow it.

Roger S
03-31-2016, 02:00 PM
I've gone to the same barber for 15 years until recently. I thought the jump to $25 from $15 was still pretty good, but not compared to $5!

Well I was going to a place on May that had $8 haircuts. Then when they raised to $10 for my two minute haircut I started looking for an alternative and found a brother and sister owned shop on Capitol Hill that do $5 cuts.

AP
03-31-2016, 02:21 PM
I post this every time the tipping discussion comes up: Should Tipping Be Banned? - Freakonomics Freakonomics (http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/)

It convinced me. I'm in favor of banning tipping.

Btw, there is a more recent Freakonomics episode (March 9th) that should be listened to alongside this episode. The No-Tipping Point - Freakonomics Freakonomics (http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-meyer/)