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warreng88
02-01-2016, 08:44 AM
From the Journal Record:

Millionaire’s row: Developer to replace rental homes in Nichols Hills

By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record January 29, 2016

NICHOLS HILLS – Developer Tony Say started buying 1950s-era rental homes on Cumberland Drive in 2007. They sit between Avondale Drive and N. Western Ave.

“I saw an opportunity to maybe tear down the old houses and build new ones,” he said. “It sort of mushroomed into buying a lot of houses over the course of the first couple of years.”

By late 2008, Say had purchased 20 of the street’s 23 homes. Then the economy went south. Say continued to lease the homes until he thought the market was better.

In the time that Say has owned the homes, Nichols Hills and Oklahoma City have seen major retail changes near Cumberland Drive. A Whole Foods Market opened in 2011. WP Glimcher bought the Classen Curve, Triangle and Nichols Hills Plaza shopping centers, with new tenants opening or coming soon. Pops, based in Arcadia, opened a second location in Nichols Hills Plaza. Trader Joe’s will be its neighbor later this year.

Another developer approached Say about using his lots for a townhome project. But Say wanted to keep it as single-family structures.

“We decided the best thing would be to transform that street,” he said. “We really want to build something that will be a long-lasting, legacy-type project.”

The project, called Cumberland Court, required some cooperation between the city and Say’s team. The city granted a variance on how far the homes had to be set back from the streets and built walls on the development’s north, south and east sides, closing off Western Avenue.

The Avondale entrance will have stone signage. There will be a concierge’s hut, providing services to the residents.

The street will remain open, though, Say said.

“We’re not building a private, gated community,” he said. “We’re improving what’s out there. We’re taking something that’s not pretty and making it really beautiful.”

Nichols Hills Mayor Peter Hoffman said he is thrilled for the development. He said the block is being transformed from something that is OK to something spectacular.

“The city is so grateful that Tony stayed the course for the many years it took to acquire each lot one by one, never flinching and never stopping,” Hoffman said.

Say acquired the remaining three homes in 2015. When he first started purchasing on the block he paid about $200,000 per home. Last year it was $500,000.

The mid-century homes will be replaced by homes ranging from 3,500 to 6,500 square feet. Say said he expects the homes to cost $1 million to $2 million. Bruce Bockus, architect with Bockus Payne Associates, has done the initial design work, though residents can choose their own architects. Tim Johnson did the engineering work.

Say said there are four vacant homes, so he’s waiting on several other residents to vacate. The homes all have month-to-month leases. Former resident Logan Walcher and his wife, Kristen Walcher, moved into one of the homes shortly after getting married. He said he wasn’t surprised to have to move after living in his house for 10 months. He said it only took two weeks to find another home.

While the Walchers are one of 23 families that were displaced, in the end, Hoffman said the project is a step forward for the city.

“These homes will be pricey, but then at the same time, they’ll be beautiful and surrounded by other homes of high quality,” he said. “The whole neighborhood will represent the best of what there is in housing. It will be a beautiful living landmark for city of Oklahoma City and Nichols Hills.”

Plutonic Panda
02-01-2016, 04:28 PM
23 houses to be razed for new addition in Nichols Hills | News OK (http://newsok.com/23-houses-to-be-razed-for-new-addition-in-nichols-hills/article/5475696)

Very nice renderings and I like how they have the parking garages hidden. That is one thing I love about Dallas is the alleys for the parking garages. It makes the homes look so much better not having the huge aluminum or wood garage doors taking up 1/4 of the frontage.

Spartan
02-02-2016, 05:25 AM
I like it. This is higher and better use. I know that the condo market is back around the nation, with a lot of folks looking specifically for a for-sale product near their work that fits their taste and lifestyle. That said, are we sure that the oil crash hasn't affected the condo market in OKC?

It'd be cool if we could replace some of the affordability lost here with some decent affordable housing on Western. That could also be a strategy to chip away at the blight in Britton. Clear some shacks, build decent affordable housing, repeat. The whole Western Avenue corridor north of 63rd needs a good scrubbing, but there are some very good bones there. Add the light rail someday (which will run very close if not parallel to Western here), and you've got a very interesting redevelopment area.

traxx
02-02-2016, 09:19 AM
Why the need to tear everything down in OKC? These are fine, affordable homes being torn down. It's not like it's blighted. I used to rent a nice mid-century home not far from there. But sure, go ahead and replace it with a bunch of cookie cutter homes with tiny lawns. and no trees. Be sure to give all the homes granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances too while you're at it.

foodiefan
02-02-2016, 09:25 AM
don't disagree but, . . . location, location, location. . . and not a lot of "available" land for housing in that area.

Urbanized
02-02-2016, 09:41 AM
LOL...gated to keep out all of the Nichols Hills riff-raff I suppose...

sooner88
02-02-2016, 09:45 AM
LOL...gated to keep out all of the Nichols Hills riff-raff I suppose...

Not gated...

Urbanized
02-02-2016, 09:48 AM
Not gated...

Huh. So I guess the renderings in the article that have "Cumberland Court" on the wall and which clearly have gates in both directions and a guard shack at the entry must be for a different Cumberland Court, somewhere else?

Urbanized
02-02-2016, 09:50 AM
Looks gated to me:

http://alanandheatherdavis.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/107/2016/01/Screen-Shot-2016-01-30-at-7.51.28-AM.png

http://www.ooyuz.com/images/2016/1/1/1454326923305.jpg

sooner88
02-02-2016, 09:51 AM
Huh. So I guess the renderings in the article that have "Cumberland Court" on the wall and which clearly have gates in both directions and a guard shack at the entry must be for a different Cumberland Court, somewhere else?

Was going off of his quote.

The street will remain open, though, Say said.

“We’re not building a private, gated community,” he said. “We’re improving what’s out there. We’re taking something that’s not pretty and making it really beautiful.”

AP
02-02-2016, 09:51 AM
^I noticed that as well. The renderings show gates but I believe the article says not gated. Seems weird.

Urbanized
02-02-2016, 09:53 AM
If that's the way he feels, maybe don't build a gate and a guard shack? I mean, it's super-nice that they won't be closing the gate and all, but I don't think you can call that something other than a gated community. All you have to do is flip a switch and it's suddenly gated, right? I mean, there ARE actual GATES in the renderings.

Martin
02-02-2016, 10:06 AM
...and the renderings appear to show cumberland terminating before it reaches western. -M

sooner88
02-02-2016, 10:12 AM
...and the renderings appear to show cumberland terminating before it reaches western. -M

Mentioned in the article too that they got a variance to close off Western.

Urbanized
02-02-2016, 10:12 AM
^^^^
The article says that it does, but that there would be a pedestrian-only gate to Western.

Spartan
02-02-2016, 10:30 AM
Well that's a problem. That's unacceptable.


Why the need to tear everything down in OKC? These are fine, affordable homes being torn down. It's not like it's blighted. I used to rent a nice mid-century home not far from there. But sure, go ahead and replace it with a bunch of cookie cutter homes with tiny lawns. and no trees. Be sure to give all the homes granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances too while you're at it.

I don't disagree that they're decent mid century homes. That said, they're highly cookie cutter...millions more exist. Meadowbrook is a little more unique.

Martin
02-02-2016, 10:45 AM
Mentioned in the article too that they got a variance to close off Western.

gotcha... i saw the part where they requested a variance to the setback but somehow missed the part regarding the street closure. -M

jerrywall
02-02-2016, 10:54 AM
The newsok article has this quote which seems to contradict the journal record quote...


This exclusive development will offer residents an urban living experience, with the security of a private neighborhood...

Between that and the renderings...

Urbanized
02-02-2016, 10:55 AM
I'm ambivalent about putting a gated community up there; it's not such a big deal in my estimation because that area will always be suburban and exclusionary, no matter what. It just cracks me up to see gated communities in wealthy areas. The ultimate was/is in Oak Tree. When I was but a wee lad I delivered lumber and millwork for high-end homes, and was in Oak Tree almost daily. One of the under-construction homes to which I delivered was Scott Verplank's, in a garden home development deep inside the east side of Oak Tree.

So, you drove way out into the countryside, miles past the end of the bus lines (which we all know is how undesirables get around, other than on foot or on bicycles) - and even miles past other wealthy housing additions - rolled up to the gated fortress of the Oak Tree entrance on Kelley. Once there, you spoke with an armed guard in the guard shack, who either had your name on a list or called a builder or resident for permission to let you in. Once you were approved, he opened the big iron gate. THEN, you drove deep into Oak Tree, past multi-million dollar homes (a number of which were owned by other PGA tour pros), until you reached the garden home development, WHICH WAS ITSELF GATED. I can't remember if you entered a code, or rang from the gate, or whatever, but the point was there was a (closed) gate. I just remember wondering exactly who they were protecting themselves from...

Canoe
02-02-2016, 11:36 AM
Gate inception is pretty hilarious.

Filthy
02-02-2016, 02:16 PM
LOL...gated to keep out all of the Nichols Hills riff-raff I suppose...


Gate inception is pretty hilarious.


I just remember wondering exactly who they were protecting themselves from...

The comments above seem to denote a negative connotation towards gated communities/neighborhoods. Just curious to know if this is a popular sentiment? I hadn't seen too much discussion in regards to this topic anywhere before, but recently have seen it several times here on OKCtalk. I was marginally surprised to see it being portrayed in a somewhat negative light. Being as neutral as I can be on the subject matter, I was just curious to know, what.....if any reasons there were for it to garner such stigma.

Rover
02-02-2016, 02:37 PM
It is just easy to make fun of other people's choices...too poor..too rich....too young..too old...too private....to open...too religious...too much a heathen... and on and on and on. I find it pretty simple, if you don't want a style of life, don't live it. I doubt the critics of this development who criticize it as a lifestyle choice on this site would ever consider to move to NH or to this street. So snarky comments about people who do are unnecessary. While everyone had a good yuk about the stupid HH residents who thought that all apartment developments in midtown would breed tattoo parlors and sex shops, others must get a good yuk about the stereotyping done about their NH lifestyle. Trouble is, the "enlightened" criticizing each other are equally ridiculous.

jerrywall
02-02-2016, 02:41 PM
The comments above seem to denote a negative connotation towards gated communities/neighborhoods. Just curious to know if this is a popular sentiment? I hadn't seen too much discussion in regards to this topic anywhere before, but recently have seen it several times here on OKCtalk. I was marginally surprised to see it being portrayed in a somewhat negative light. Being as neutral as I can be on the subject matter, I was just curious to know, what.....if any reasons there were for it to garner such stigma.

I think you're reading too much into it. It's more a curiosity/observation I think. A gated community inside of a gated community does seem curious. And it's sort of funny to think of a gated community inside of NH (it just seems redundant). I'm not sure that folks really have a problem with gated communities (although someone can correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure). However, too many in an urban core could cause walkability and flow problems, I guess.

theanvil
02-02-2016, 02:48 PM
The comments above seem to denote a negative connotation towards gated communities/neighborhoods. Just curious to know if this is a popular sentiment? I hadn't seen too much discussion in regards to this topic anywhere before, but recently have seen it several times here on OKCtalk. I was marginally surprised to see it being portrayed in a somewhat negative light. Being as neutral as I can be on the subject matter, I was just curious to know, what.....if any reasons there were for it to garner such stigma.

The whole urban-suburban rivalry seems ridiculous to me. Am I supposed to feel ashamed because I enjoy living in a gated neighborhood in a suburb. On the other hand, I also enjoy downtown OKC's dining and shopping and spend lots of money there. It is possible to love both urban and suburban vibes. The biggest benefit to me of a gated neighborhood is much less traffic. I can send my young son out to ride his bike to friends' houses in the neighborhood and I don't worry about busy corners.

catch22
02-02-2016, 02:56 PM
Not a fan of gated communities...sends the message that only one type of person is welcome to your community.

I don't have a problem with gated houses though. If you want personal security, a gated house/property makes much more sense than a gated community. A gated community is just thumping your chest.

The more I live where I am....the more I can't wait to hit the lottery and buy about 250 acres of land in the middle of nowhere and never have to interact with another human being ever again in my life.

Filthy
02-02-2016, 03:01 PM
I think you're reading too much into it. It's more a curiosity/observation I think.

It was simple question, as I was also curious. As a casual observer/poster, I was just something that I have noticed being discussed, or atleast touched upon in numerous threads posted over the past few years. And the times that I remember it being touched upon it seemed to always be portrayed in a somewhat negative light. So, my post was also nothing more than a "curiosity/observation" type scenario as well.

jerrywall
02-02-2016, 03:03 PM
Not a fan of gated communities...sends the message that only one type of person is welcome to your community.

I don't have a problem with gated houses though. If you want personal security, a gated house/property makes much more sense than a gated community. A gated community is just thumping your chest.

The more I live where I am....the more I can't wait to hit the lottery and buy about 250 acres of land in the middle of nowhere and never have to interact with another human being ever again in my life.

I want a hybrid. I want to buy a large acreage, and get several friends and relatives to build houses, and we'll put the whole thing behind one large gate with high walls around....Call it the Wall Compound.

Filthy
02-02-2016, 03:05 PM
Not a fan of gated communities...sends the message that only one type of person is welcome to your community.

A gated community is just thumping your chest.



There it is.

Richard at Remax
02-02-2016, 03:11 PM
We're ripping on gated communities now? Must be a slow day.

Urbanized
02-02-2016, 03:21 PM
I think you're reading too much into it. It's more a curiosity/observation I think. A gated community inside of a gated community does seem curious. And it's sort of funny to think of a gated community inside of NH (it just seems redundant). I'm not sure that folks really have a problem with gated communities (although someone can correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure). However, too many in an urban core could cause walkability and flow problems, I guess.

Exactly. Since I'm the one making that comment, I can say with certainty that no ill will was intended. You know this about me Rover. I clearly also said in another post that I didn't really have a problem with it in this location as it is a suburban one, and always will be. I've also been pretty clear in my years on the site that I think suburban living can be a valid choice, depending on circumstances. It's one I have made myself in the past. I've even lived in a gated community.

My point was that it's a little funny because a gate in this location is a bit redundant. This is a neighborhood where people are known to leave their houses and cars unlocked. I was once pulled over there (while house hunting) in a brand new F-150 super crew Lariat 4x4, presumably because I was driving a pickup truck, aimlessly. As in, "can I help you folks find anything?"

Second, you MUST be kidding me if you say you can't see the humor in a gated community INSIDE the gates at Oak Tree. Lighten up on that one; it's funny.

Urbanized
02-02-2016, 03:26 PM
Also, BTW, pointing out the contradiction between what he pointedly described according to the article, and what appears in rendering. I would point that out if the contradiction worked the other way too.

catch22
02-02-2016, 04:30 PM
We're ripping on gated communities now? Must be a slow day.

I don't think anyone is ripping anybody. It's obviously a life style choice and there's no harm with that.

I personally feel like it is a false sense of security aimed at showing off, instead of a true secure home.

Except as in the case of what Urbanized laid out, where several friends or even a few family members have a small gated community.

We're all given limited time on the planet and we should live in whatever way brings you happiness; and that's different for everyone.

adaniel
02-02-2016, 04:49 PM
Don't really care what people do with their money. Just know that buying a home in a gated neighborhood is pretty much throwing your wallet to your HOA president and saying "Have fun!" Gated entrances are a pain to maintain and require constant upkeep. I had one in my condo when I was still in OKC and tbh it was probably broken more than it actually worked. They also really don't prevent most crime...multiple articles about this.

Much more effective security measures exist, but most will be attached directly to the house. A gated entrance is a real estate tactic, not really any sort of safety deterrent. Hell, a big dog, mace, or a pistol will do you far better than a gate at a fraction of the cost.

FWIW I went on a mission trip to the Domincan Republic back in HS and met up with a church member who was living in a fairly upscale ex-pat neighborhood in the middle of Santo Domingo. THAT was a gated neighborhood. Barbed wire, 7 foot concrete walls, 24-7 manned entranced guarded by mean dudes with semiautomatic weapons. These people would laugh at what we have in the states.

Rover
02-02-2016, 04:53 PM
A gated community is just thumping your chest.

Really? smh

And it really is true, if you live in an apartment you must have tatoos and frequent sex shops. LOL

Plutonic Panda
02-02-2016, 05:02 PM
It is just easy to make fun of other people's choices...too poor..too rich....too young..too old...too private....to open...too religious...too much a heathen... and on and on and on. I find it pretty simple, if you don't want a style of life, don't live it. I doubt the critics of this development who criticize it as a lifestyle choice on this site would ever consider to move to NH or to this street. So snarky comments about people who do are unnecessary. While everyone had a good yuk about the stupid HH residents who thought that all apartment developments in midtown would breed tattoo parlors and sex shops, others must get a good yuk about the stereotyping done about their NH lifestyle. Trouble is, the "enlightened" criticizing each other are equally ridiculous.
+1

Filthy
02-02-2016, 06:58 PM
I think suburban living can be a valid choice, depending on circumstances

That's an interesting caveat for sure.



Just know that buying a home in a gated neighborhood is pretty much throwing your wallet to your HOA president and saying "Have fun!"

I would think that anyone being part of a HOA, would want to contribute funds to upkeep of the surroundings of their neighborhood.


They also really don't prevent most crime...multiple articles about this.

If you would like to link to one of those articles, or point me in that direction I would like to see what statistics were used and what control/variables were stated. Only reason, I even bring this up, (And honestly, the main reason I even posted in this thread) is that I just recently attended a neighborhood watch patrol class, with the OKC police dept. This very topic came up, and for the most part, someone stated word for word what you just did. The officer conducting the class disagreed. Stating, that gated communities of single family homes in a given area, were much less likely to be vandalized, have property stolen, or burgled. He did however say, that most of their data showed for crime/burglaries within gated communities was significantly higher in multi family complexes, such as condos and apartments within the metro that were gated. Stating, that when you have a large number of tenants in one location, not only do you have exponentially more people coming and going, but you also have a large amount of turnover in number of renters with access to the gates. Compound that with nobody knowing who is who, just about anyone can pull in that gate at any time, without causing any suspicion. Somewhere in there, was also a sneer that in a gated multi family/apartment complex, you were also much more likely to have your car/condo/apartment burgled, and or robbed by someone living within your gated complex. So, I would assume that whatever articles you can site are lumping these statistics together, even though they should be viewed differently when trying to paint a true picture, of tracking crime. I am in no way disputing your claims..moreso just sharing what was discussed by the Sgt. that was conducting the class. (But it clearly could have just been propaganda being spread by the OKC PD)



Much more effective security measures exist, but most will be attached directly to the house. A gated entrance is a real estate tactic, not really any sort of safety deterrent. Hell, a big dog, mace, or a pistol will do you far better than a gate at a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure anyone who lives in a gated community feel as if the gates are a safety deterrent. I would agree that most would focus more on those "directly attached to the house" kind of items when it comes to security. What it does do, however is create some privacy/seclusion in keeping people OUT that don't belong. I 100% agree, that if a true criminal wanted to put forth the effort to commit a crime, in said neighborhood...that he could in fact find a way to make it happen...Gates or no gates. He did however finish up the conversation with this, in stating that you are correct...a closed gate at a neighborhood entrance cannot prevent all crime, however it is in fact a deterrent, because the MAJORITY of criminals/burglars/meth-crack heads are lazy by nature. The path of least resistance, will be their 1st, 2nd and 3rd option.


So, I will give this tidbit. I do live within a gated community. (Consisting of 41 houses) The neighborhood was established in 2011, and has been gated since inception. We are bordered by another neighborhood to our North and another Neighborhood entrance is another 1/4 mile to the West. Between the other two neighborhoods, consisting for the most part the same type of homes, with approx. the same demographics, square footage, age of home etc.. (but NOT Gated) There have been several home invasions in that 5 year span, as well as countless petty crooks/teenage kids that rummage thru unlocked cars, steal stereos etc..... Yet, in that same 5 year span, there had been zero home invasions in our neighborhood. Well.....until this last summer that is. We had a neighbor that had their back door kicked in. Alarm went off, and the responsible individuals were in and out of the house in less than 90 seconds. Typically, this is where the story would end, except for the fact that we live in a gated community. And yes...you are correct in the fact that those gates did not keep a motivated criminal out of the neighborhood, but unbeknownst to that motivated criminal, every single car that enters and exits that gate has its license plate photographed/recorded by an HD license plate reader. Suspect was subsequently arrested within about 6 hours of committing said crime.

So, although you might consider it a real estate tactic, or throwing away your wallet to your HOA. I consider it a piece of mind.

Spartan
02-02-2016, 10:22 PM
You need peace of mind in order to live in Nichols Hills (I think that's what you're trying to say)? Do you think it's filthy or something?


We're ripping on gated communities now? Must be a slow day.

No, but somebody proposed one at 63rd and Western, right behind Nichols Hills Plaza. You don't think that's a big deal?

mugofbeer
02-02-2016, 10:29 PM
Not a fan of gated communities...sends the message that only one type of person is welcome to your community.
I
I don't have a problem with gated houses though. If you want personal security, a gated house/property makes much more sense than a gated community. A gated community is just thumping your chest.

The more I live where I am....the more I can't wait to hit the lottery and buy about 250 acres of land in the middle of nowhere and never have to interact with another human being ever again in my life.

I live in a nice 1970s suburban community in the S Denver metro. It has a homeowner association but no gates. It has several entrances from busy streets or other neighborhoods. It is surrounded by other nice neighborhoods of both higher and more moderate income. After living there 20 years and watching it kept up nicely by the owners, the neighborhood gets its share of buglaries and especially, car break-ins. My wife caught a girl nosing around my car last summer trying to open the door about 2am in my driveway. Someone drove thru and shot at a resident out walking her dogs. People walk into the neighborhood about the time the high schools let out wearing hoodies and backpacks to look like teenagers. They ring doorbells then walk around to the back yard and break-in the house when no one answers. Car break-ins are very common in the summer . Teens vandalized port-o-potties put out for some street projects a while back.

Its not smug keep-out-the-riff reasons for gates, but a desire to keep people out who dont belong there. We aren't considering gates but cameras. Pretty sad it seems to me.

Spartan
02-02-2016, 10:39 PM
Why are we debating the concept of gated communities? That's one thing, and to each their own. It's very different when you propose to gobble up an existing street, with connectivity, and remove that connectivity. Debate the street closure at Western Avenue, not gated communities in general.

I would have no problem if this were proposed in Edmond and they wanted an even bigger gate. This involves actually undoing a street grid, which is a totally different thing. We are just now starting to get some walkable density around 63rd and Western, which could mature into a great asset for OKC, if we don't screw it up.

Spartan
02-02-2016, 10:41 PM
Mentioned in the article too that they got a variance to close off Western.


They already received this variance?

Eddie1
02-02-2016, 10:46 PM
Don't really care what people do with their money. Just know that buying a home in a gated neighborhood is pretty much throwing your wallet to your HOA president and saying "Have fun!" Gated entrances are a pain to maintain and require constant upkeep. I had one in my condo when I was still in OKC and tbh it was probably broken more than it actually worked. They also really don't prevent most crime...multiple articles about this.

Much more effective security measures exist, but most will be attached directly to the house. A gated entrance is a real estate tactic, not really any sort of safety deterrent. Hell, a big dog, mace, or a pistol will do you far better than a gate at a fraction of the cost.

FWIW I went on a mission trip to the Domincan Republic back in HS and met up with a church member who was living in a fairly upscale ex-pat neighborhood in the middle of Santo Domingo. THAT was a gated neighborhood. Barbed wire, 7 foot concrete walls, 24-7 manned entranced guarded by mean dudes with semiautomatic weapons. These people would laugh at what we have in the states.

Yeah, people with means live like this is South Africa too, huge walls, barbed wire, it's crazy

zookeeper
02-02-2016, 10:54 PM
...I can't wait to hit the lottery and buy about 250 acres of land in the middle of nowhere and never have to interact with another human being ever again in my life.

Hear, Hear!

http://i.imgur.com/qbYIqaK.jpg

mugofbeer
02-02-2016, 11:01 PM
Why are we debating the concept of gated communities? That's one thing, and to each their own. It's very different when you propose to gobble up an existing street, with connectivity, and remove that connectivity. Debate the street closure at Western Avenue, not gated communities in general.

I would have no problem if this were proposed in Edmond and they wanted an even bigger gate. This involves actually undoing a street grid, which is a totally different thing. We are just now starting to get some walkable density around 63rd and Western, which could mature into a great asset for OKC, if we don't screw it up.

Its not an urban neighborhood. Its an older suburban neighborhood.

Spartan
02-02-2016, 11:09 PM
Its not an urban neighborhood. Its an older suburban neighborhood.

And? It's 1 block from a retail town center, 2 blocks from a major headquarters. It's an emerging area, no?

Urbanized
02-03-2016, 02:14 AM
That's an interesting caveat for sure...

Really? How so? I'll be interested to see what kind of words you try to put into my mouth here.

sooner88
02-03-2016, 07:31 AM
They already received this variance?

I assume they have.

"The project, called Cumberland Court, required some cooperation between the city and Say’s team. The city granted a variance on how far the homes had to be set back from the streets and built walls on the development’s north, south and east sides, closing off Western Avenue."

Filthy
02-03-2016, 07:45 AM
Really? How so? I'll be interested to see what kind of words you try to put into my mouth here.

I'm not sure if this was meant for me, as I can't ever remember doing such. Like....ever. So, I'm actually pretty taken aback by the overall tone of the statement itself. I know sometimes its tough to keep on track, and only discuss the topic at hand, but there is no need to fabricate an issue that does not exist. I will do my best to keep that in mind if ever quoting you again, to make sure that even if I quote your post word for word, that I should not do so in such a manor that could be interpreted in a negative light.

hoya
02-03-2016, 07:50 AM
So, I will give this tidbit. I do live within a gated community. (Consisting of 41 houses) The neighborhood was established in 2011, and has been gated since inception. We are bordered by another neighborhood to our North and another Neighborhood entrance is another 1/4 mile to the West. Between the other two neighborhoods, consisting for the most part the same type of homes, with approx. the same demographics, square footage, age of home etc.. (but NOT Gated) There have been several home invasions in that 5 year span, as well as countless petty crooks/teenage kids that rummage thru unlocked cars, steal stereos etc..... Yet, in that same 5 year span, there had been zero home invasions in our neighborhood. Well.....until this last summer that is. We had a neighbor that had their back door kicked in. Alarm went off, and the responsible individuals were in and out of the house in less than 90 seconds. Typically, this is where the story would end, except for the fact that we live in a gated community. And yes...you are correct in the fact that those gates did not keep a motivated criminal out of the neighborhood, but unbeknownst to that motivated criminal, every single car that enters and exits that gate has its license plate photographed/recorded by an HD license plate reader. Suspect was subsequently arrested within about 6 hours of committing said crime.

So, although you might consider it a real estate tactic, or throwing away your wallet to your HOA. I consider it a piece of mind.

I live in Del City, in an older neighborhood. I have never been a victim of any kind of crime there. No home invasions, no auto burglaries, nothing. Our neighborhood has had zero problems. Other neighborhoods in Del City, not so much. You don't need gates to live in a safe place.

And I consider this a piece of mind:

https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/12/9/1386578184880/b5003da1-40f4-4271-bcaa-12b7157e09f8-460x276.jpeg

Spartan
02-03-2016, 07:50 AM
I assume they have.

"The project, called Cumberland Court, required some cooperation between the city and Say’s team. The city granted a variance on how far the homes had to be set back from the streets and built walls on the development’s north, south and east sides, closing off Western Avenue."

Sounds like a done deal.

Wow that is so myopic. Since OKC maintains Western Avenue, I would if they have any say.

They're going to put a freaking cul de sac in front of the Hideaway Pizza there. Ugh

jerrywall
02-03-2016, 08:07 AM
Sounds like a done deal.

Wow that is so myopic. Since OKC maintains Western Avenue, I would if they have any say.

They're going to put a freaking cul de sac in front of the Hideaway Pizza there. Ugh

I assume from the description there will be a wall along western avenue. Technically a cul de sac on the west side of the wall, but it's not like cumberland is a major artery of the grid system. It's a one block street between Avondale and Western. Not sure how many folks will be walking from NH to Western anyways.

Filthy
02-03-2016, 08:35 AM
I live in Del City, in an older neighborhood. I have never been a victim of any kind of crime there. No home invasions, no auto burglaries, nothing. Our neighborhood has had zero problems. Other neighborhoods in Del City, not so much. You don't need gates to live in a safe place.

Thank you for your input. As well as bringing to light a grammatical error that I have carried with me, my entire adult life.

adaniel
02-03-2016, 09:15 AM
If you would like to link to one of those articles, or point me in that direction I would like to see what statistics were used and what control/variables were stated.

An interesting if not lengthy study done by USF about this:

http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5184&context=etd

Some tidbits, emphasis mine:


More specifically, this study was driven by two research questions: first, whether community gating leads to decreased, equivalent, or increased property crime victimization risk compared to non-gated communities. Second, whether community gating exhibits an interactive effect with other forms of guardianship. Analyses suggested that community gating does not appear to decrease victimization risk based on the current data. Generally speaking, results for community gating were statistically indistinguishable from zero, indicating that there was no efficacious guardianship effect. This conclusion is tempered by the findings for theft and fraudulent use of personal information, in which respondents living in gated communities exhibited an increased likelihood of victimization.

and


For example, smaller households in gated communities may exhibit higher likelihoods of theft/fraud victimization as a product of the community’s ambience. Romig (2005) observed that gated communities often popularize a false sense of security among residents. This belief is in part due to the physical, monolithic presence of the gate, which is expected to protect residents and their belongings. In addition, the gated community often promotes a sense of exclusion from the outside, where the internal workings of the community are relatively unaltered by outside forces. As a result, residents in gated communities may incorrectly assume that their homes are safe and subsequently become lackadaisical about protecting their personal information physically as well as digitally


So, although you might consider it a real estate tactic, or throwing away your wallet to your HOA. I consider it a piece of mind.

And to be honest, that's fine. We all do things that help us sleep at night that may seem nonsensical to others. Just understand that it is more of a mental placebo more than anything.

Richard at Remax
02-03-2016, 09:19 AM
You need peace of mind in order to live in Nichols Hills (I think that's what you're trying to say)? Do you think it's filthy or something?



No, but somebody proposed one at 63rd and Western, right behind Nichols Hills Plaza. You don't think that's a big deal?

No I don't think it's a big deal at all. This will be a small concentrated area. That being said to some buyers having an opportunity to live in Nichols Hills, in a new modern home, walking distance to all these great places, AND have it be gated, creates a very desirable situation for a lot of people, like it or not.

Also there is a big difference between a guard gate where every visitor has to stop and check in VS a coded gate where many outsiders can have access at any time. Just wanted to point that out.

TheTravellers
02-03-2016, 09:49 AM
There are also the psychological factors of gated communites - they enhance separation, inequality, and divide society even more than it already is, along with other undesirable consequences.

Imprisoned by the Walls Built to Keep 'the Others' Out - latimes (http://articles.latimes.com/2003/dec/19/opinion/oe-low19)

http://www.gammathetaupsilon.org/the-geographical-bulletin/2010s/volume54-1/article2.pdf

Spartan
02-03-2016, 10:28 AM
No I don't think it's a big deal at all. This will be a small concentrated area. That being said to some buyers having an opportunity to live in Nichols Hills, in a new modern home, walking distance to all these great places, AND have it be gated, creates a very desirable situation for a lot of people, like it or not.

Also there is a big difference between a guard gate where every visitor has to stop and check in VS a coded gate where many outsiders can have access at any time. Just wanted to point that out.

This is really crazy for me. We don't care because it's just a small concentrated area in the grand scheme of things.

Every mistake OKC has made was just in small concentrated areas here and there. Really that's all downtown is. That's also all that 63rd/Western is.

And it's not a small concentrated area. Cumberland Drive is part of the neighborhood fabric around 63rd and Western which is actually a very important area. It's sort of becoming OKC's "Uptown."

There are two ways this can go: 1, public and private sectors can work together to improve this area and transform it into a walkable urban node with Classen Curve, the Triangle, Glimcher, Chesapeake's HQ, NH Plaza, and more. This could be a great district, a lot like Upper Kirby in Houston. OR 2, myopia prevails and we go out of our way to disconnect these pieces, and keep this area locked in an identity crisis and underwhelming condition.

Does anyone have a vision for this area? If not, therein lies the problem. People in this town want to make big public investments in this area, including a streetcar all the way up Classen. I may get involved to make sure that doesn't happen if there is no vision for this area. The south side could put a transit system to better use anyway. I see no reason to invest in a part of town where residents hide behind gates and cul de sacs.

Also when this project goes belly up here's what we'll have - an entire street of urban prairie, with a cul de sac blocking off Western Avenue. This will make for a difficult failed project rescue. At least Rainey Williams didn't cul de sac Walker while he was at it.

Urbanized
02-03-2016, 01:22 PM
I'm not sure if this was meant for me, as I can't ever remember doing such. Like....ever. So, I'm actually pretty taken aback by the overall tone of the statement itself. I know sometimes its tough to keep on track, and only discuss the topic at hand, but there is no need to fabricate an issue that does not exist. I will do my best to keep that in mind if ever quoting you again, to make sure that even if I quote your post word for word, that I should not do so in such a manor that could be interpreted in a negative light.

You quoted something I said, made bold a portion of it, and said "that's an interesting caveat for sure..." So I will ask again, what makes the quoted/bold caveat interesting?

Filthy
02-03-2016, 02:55 PM
An interesting if not lengthy study done by USF about this:

http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5184&context=etd

Some tidbits, emphasis mine:

and

And to be honest, that's fine. We all do things that help us sleep at night that may seem nonsensical to others. Just understand that it is more of a mental placebo more than anything.

Thanks for providing the link. It took me this entire time to read the study in full, and try to digest. There is a ton of information there. A lot of different variables used, and conclusions met. It seems as if a lot of it is open to interpretation as the variables used do more to emphasize: race, financial stability, demographics, education level, and family size as the main determining factors of being "victimized" vs. comparing victimization of "gated vs. non gated" in comparable neighborhoods that are proximal to one another. The entire study was a nation wide study, using tons of different variables that somewhat convoluted a clear picture. In my eyes, its comparable to (ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE) taking Oak Tree in Edmond as a gated community, and then using some random crack head apartment complex down on SW 29th that just happens to have a gate, so now they're using an average of the crime statistics of the two...and publishing that as fact.

Their Variables- a.) Oak Tree Country Club gated community had 0 murders in last 10 years. b.) Random crack head apartment on SW29th had 8 murders in last 10 years.
Their Conclusion- Gated communities have an average 4 murders every 10 years

That really doesn't tell me anything. Because of different demographics making up the landscape of a city the crime results vary. This is evident on any crime tracker map you pull up for any given city. I would think that a more accurate way of getting an accurate feel, would be to run the same tests/variables, and only compare those variables within a certain section of a given city or pre determined quadrant. 2 to 4 square mile sections? I don't know. As I understood/interpreted it, the only real definitive statistic that really showed in favor of higher victimization in gated communities, was in regards to financial/identify theft as it pertains to someone having their digital personal information stolen. (Online protective behaviors.)

So, basically its saying...that if you are a well educated white family of 4+ living within a gated community in a affluent/suburban area, that you are much less likely to be victimized than a non white, low income, uneducated family living in a gated community of a not so great/urban area. <---- Which pretty much goes without saying.

Either way, I am not disputing/disagreeing with the information provided, and appreciate the input. I have however printed off this study, and will be taking it with me March 1, to show Sgt. Skalla, and pose the question as to why their data contradicts this, and or why there would be inconsistencies in our area specifically.

Filthy
02-03-2016, 03:28 PM
I think suburban living can be a valid choice, depending on circumstances.



You quoted something I said, made bold a portion of it, and said "that's an interesting caveat for sure..." So I will ask again, what makes the quoted/bold caveat interesting?

It was interesting in the fact, that you felt the need to include it at all. I mean, obviously it was not by accident. But It was just something that struck me as a disingenuous and/or backhanded comment. I guess I found it to be more humorous than anything. Clearly it would have been better not to mention it at all, and I apologize for bringing it to your attention.

Jeepnokc
02-04-2016, 06:40 AM
We live in a gated community which started as a non gated community until we voted to install gate. Before installing the gate, we had a lot of people that would drive through the neighborhood just looking. This causes additional wear and tear on the road which we pay for as well as increasing the danger tour kids riding bikes. Since the gate, we don't have all the looky loos driving through. The only crime we have had is one house was burglarized which incidentally was the house that is closest to the main road just inside the gate. We have had one vehicle stolen but through the camera system at gate, we were able to determine it was an employee of the guy who lived here and thus, had the code to get in.

Gates are a pain in the ass, expensive and do give a false sense of security as someone truly bent on committing a crime will still get in but they do prevent opportunity crime and provide for more privacy in your neighborhood. My experience with criminals (extensive as have been practicing criminal law for 18 years) is that most criminals are looking for the easy target with quick undetected entry and getaway and a gate does deter that somewhat.

What is attractive about Cumberland Drive is the closing of one end of Western to keep people from just driving through and thus, decreasing traffic on the street in front of the residence.

Spartan
02-04-2016, 08:05 AM
What is attractive about Cumberland Drive is the closing of one end of Western to keep people from just driving through and thus, decreasing traffic on the street in front of the residence.

If you don't want to live near Western Avenue, you shouldn't build near Western Avenue. It doesn't give me confidence that an intelligent person is developing this property.