We could fix some of that with the 5 cent gas tax. Best to get it in now, while prices are low, so it's not as noticeable later when they rise again. By then, we'll have had a nice push into ODOT to help get some crap done.

The problem with that would be that it might not help ODOT's budget whatsoever. Current monies budgeted for ODOT could just dry up (like (IIRC) educational funding that was basically supplanted by the lottery). I also wouldn't be for ODOT getting ANY extra money until they showed a committment to something other than highways.

I may be entirely wrong on this, but I believe it may be a state constitutional issue. I know all the double-speak that's gone into the MAPS projects has been due to constitutional prohibitions on long-term municipal debt and logrolling. Said then, and I'll repeat - someone needs to attack that particular issue, although I certainly understand and laud the desire to keep the state and its cities free of long-term debt. We've saved ourselves from going down the ugly path trod by other cities not so cautious.

You'll need debt controls that doesn't allow the debt to exceed a certain percentage of state GDP. Put a limit on it so it doesn't spiral out of control.

However, building highways and roads this way simply makes no sense. Maybe a temporary gas tax to fund specific highway improvements could get passed. Then sell off the rights to said tax dollars to investors to fund it immediately and start construction.

The problem with that would be that it might not help ODOT's budget whatsoever. Current monies budgeted for ODOT could just dry up (like (IIRC) educational funding that was basically supplanted by the lottery). I also wouldn't be for ODOT getting ANY extra money until they showed a committment to something other than highways.

Well it's all in how your write the thing. The legislature failed with the lottery in that they allowed lottery to not be supplemental and tried to treat it as a replacement....which was the major thing we were all against happening. The same would need to be true here. The increase should be supplementary income to the budget, not a replacement for something already in place.

And im not sure what you think ODOT should be focusing on instead of highways. If you mean other modes like rail, wouldn't that need to be more of a city/state partnership or even be more city?

Well it's all in how your write the thing. The legislature failed with the lottery in that they allowed lottery to not be supplemental and tried to treat it as a replacement....which was the major thing we were all against happening. The same would need to be true here. The increase should be supplementary income to the budget, not a replacement for something already in place.

And im not sure what you think ODOT should be focusing on instead of highways. If you mean other modes like rail, wouldn't that need to be more of a city/state partnership or even be more city?

Why should rail be more of a city/state partnership or even more city thing than highways?

Exactly. "Transportation" covers many modes - vehicles, rail, aircraft, and water - all of which were incorporated in ODOT's old logo. Though I know there is already some support there, it would be nice to see ODOT's rail programs division show more interest in inter-city passenger rail, or growing our freight rail network by offering assistance with rehabilitating a few derelict rail corridors (the state-owned former Rock Island line from Weatherford to Bridgeport comes to mind, as does the Union Pacific-owned former Rock Island line from Shawnee to McAlester).

That said, I'm getting a bit off topic here. I'm glad ODOT is putting money into rebuilding interchanges that have been broken for decades... I just wish they could do it faster. I'd definitely be in support of changing state law to allow ODOT to take on a limited amount of debt to fund projects in their entirety, instead of piecemeal like we do it now.

Has any concrete date been set for the start of construction on Phase I?

Has any concrete date been set for the start of construction on Phase I?

I see what you did there.

One problem ODOT has is many projects are put on hold pending funding for years after design plans are approved. Then by the time they are finally completed in phases that span a decade or longer, they are already out of date and in need of further expansion. For example, I35 between OKC and Moore was in need of yet a 4th lane on each side of traffic the moment crews finally opened the last segment of the 6-lane expansion!

Definitely agree on I35, but I'm not sure the state could have guessed how much the area south of 240 would grow. Moore saw unprecedented growth that basically doubled the city's population, not to mention the OKC area outside of the Moore lines. Norman's population has increased as well. Both of those have caused a lot more vehicles to need I35 than before and both city's growth came VERY quickly. There's FAR more traffic there than on Broadway Ext. because far North OKC has multiple access points to get there...Kilpatrick, 44, 35, Broad Ext. And on the south, we've got 35 and Sooner...that's it. And basically everything goes down 35. What would be helpful is to get that loop on both sides going so we can get some pressure off 35!!!

Definitely agree on I35, but I'm not sure the state could have guessed how much the area south of 240 would grow. Moore saw unprecedented growth that basically doubled the city's population, not to mention the OKC area outside of the Moore lines. Norman's population has increased as well. Both of those have caused a lot more vehicles to need I35 than before and both city's growth came VERY quickly. There's FAR more traffic there than on Broadway Ext. because far North OKC has multiple access points to get there...Kilpatrick, 44, 35, Broad Ext. And on the south, we've got 35 and Sooner...that's it. And basically everything goes down 35. What would be helpful is to get that loop on both sides going so we can get some pressure off 35!!!

I dunno, bomber...Moore has been growing pretty rapidly since I was a kid growing up in SW OKC 40-some years ago...although, in fairness, a lot of that growth has been in the near-west/SW OKC part of town, not *Moore proper*, so maybe that's been the hesitancy on the development of better access points in the area. As an aside, I notice that the first section of the "New Portland" has opened up between SW 104th and SW74th, and it's REALLY nice!!

I was just basing that off Moore's population growth numbers. It had a HUGE jump around 2000 compared to the steady growth it has always had.

A builder friend of mine says that Moore has slowed tremendously this year, and his target price is the 150 k range.

A builder friend of mine says that Moore has slowed tremendously this year, and his target price is the 150 k range.

For the first time I can remember in a LONG time, many if not most of the elementary schools in Moore - particularly around tornado-affected areas - are either holding steady or *declining* in enrollment numbers, especially in the early grades. Now, in all fairness, that *might* be a misleading stat, because they're also ramping up full-day kindergarten, so perhaps there's at least a bit of a numbers shell-game going on. But a teacher acquaintance of mine indicates the elementary enrollment drop is real.

The last census estimates showed a respectable level of growth, but that was for last year.

Do you think people are too spooked from the perceived tornado threat to move Moore right now?

The last census estimates showed a respectable level of growth, but that was for last year.

Do you think people are too spooked from the perceived tornado threat to move Moore right now?

Moore has been hit by two smaller tornadoes since the big F5. The immediate Moore area also received some of the worst of this May's severe weather. I would say its more than just a perceived threat. While I understand scientifically its supposed to be random, over the past 20 years Moore has seen far more than its fair share of tornadoes.

For the first time I can remember in a LONG time, many if not most of the elementary schools in Moore - particularly around tornado-affected areas - are either holding steady or *declining* in enrollment numbers, especially in the early grades. Now, in all fairness, that *might* be a misleading stat, because they're also ramping up full-day kindergarten, so perhaps there's at least a bit of a numbers shell-game going on. But a teacher acquaintance of mine indicates the elementary enrollment drop is real.

Births have been down since 2007, so it is not surprising that is showing up in school enrollment. Nationally the reduced number is at least partially attributed to the economy, though it also seems to fall in line with the normal cycle of peaks which echo back to the post WW2 baby boom.

http://www.odot.org/newsmedia/press/2015/I35_I240_plan_map.jpg

Is there anything new in that depiction that wasn't proposed previously?

It is a little odd they label every road Ultimate, I could maybe see Ultimately since that would more imply what it will be (plus they have the space for the addition letters) but it ends up looking like they are trying to sell a premium version of an interstate, realistically unless there are temporary roads on the map it probably should just be left off.


http://www.odot.org/newsmedia/press/2015/I35_I240_plan_map.jpg

It is a little odd they label every road Ultimate, I could maybe see Ultimately since that would more imply what it will be (plus they have the space for the addition letters) but it ends up looking like they are trying to sell a premium version of an interstate, realistically unless there are temporary roads on the map it probably should just be left off.
More than likely there are going to be temp roads to keep traffic flowing. Just like they have done on the I-35 project in Norman. They built temp roads and are using the service roads to keep closures to a minimum.

It is a little odd they label every road Ultimate, I could maybe see Ultimately since that would more imply what it will be (plus they have the space for the addition letters) but it ends up looking like they are trying to sell a premium version of an interstate, realistically unless there are temporary roads on the map it probably should just be left off.

In this case they are using ultimate as an adjective - which makes it a synonym for words like "final". What they're saying is that when it is finished, the interchange will conform to the drawing.

ODOT has posted the plans for one of the initial phases of this project - the ramp reconfiguration/move to Santa Fe from Shields.

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/contracts/a2016/plans1601/540_2116_ACNHPPI-2400(004)SS_0903220/A%20FULL%20FILE%20W%20XS.pdf (WARNING: 23MB PDF!)

ODOT has posted the plans for one of the initial phases of this project - the ramp reconfiguration/move to Santa Fe from Shields.

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/contracts/a2016/plans1601/540_2116_ACNHPPI-2400(004)SS_0903220/A%20FULL%20FILE%20W%20XS.pdf (WARNING: 23MB PDF!)

So they're letting this out to bid this month as well? I hope that is the case.

I'm totally unfamiliar with how they list the dates on these... It's listed with a let date of 16/21, whatever that means...

I'm totally unfamiliar with how they list the dates on these... It's listed with a let date of 16/21, whatever that means...

If I was going to guess, I would think that is short for 2016/2021.

21St week of 2016?

Some federal stuff is done that way

Appears it was a misprint as it now says 21/01 and it is on the approved January bid list and they have a bid opening on the 21st of January.

Excellent, thanks for the info! :)

Had not seen this posed anywhere:

https://www.ok.gov/odot/I35andI240meeting.html

https://www.ok.gov/odot/images/I35_I240_plan_map_forweb.jpg

https://www.ok.gov/odot/images/Crossroads-%20View%202-After_forweb.jpg

12152

http://www.okctalk.com/transportation/24469-i-240-i-35-interchange-rebuild-7.html

http://www.okctalk.com/transportation/37475-i240-i35-interchange.html

It would probably be a good idea to merge these threads - if possible. :)

I agree.

I believe there is also a duplicate of the 44 and the 235 interchange thread.

The 8 year project is going to begin in 4 months.

http://m.newsok.com/major-south-okc-interchange-to-get-multilevel-makeover/article/5477666

Hopefully some of the phases will get pushed up and it won't take 8 years.

Hopefully some of the phases will get pushed up and it won't take 8 years.
I lean more towards being hopeful that it won't take more than 8 years. LOL

Yeah lol... I am probably getting ahead of myself. :p

I'm glad I moved such that I no longer drive through this every day.

Of course, I still drive through 44 & 235 every day, but one major construction project to go through daily is at least better than two.

The six phases are expected to be completed one right after another, unless there is an interruption in funding, he said. The federal government is expected to pay about 80 percent of the cost.

This quote from the linked article makes it sound like they're going to be pushing to get this done relatively quickly. Since I live nearby... here's hoping!

Wondering if anybody knows if any of the interchange-fixing projects that have been done in the OKC metro have actually finished on time? I wasn't here for a while when the I-35/I-40 one was being worked on, but I don't think I remember one that finished on time (or had any kind of reasonable schedule - 8 years for this one? Absolutely ridiculous, and yes, I know the reasons why, but still absolutely ridiculous)

Here's a link to a detailed map of the project from the ODOT website: http://www.odot.org/newsmedia/press/2015/I35_I240_plan_map.jpg

Any chance we could merge the three threads on this topic?

Yay! Thank you, omnipotent Forum Gods! :D

Wondering if anybody knows if any of the interchange-fixing projects that have been done in the OKC metro have actually finished on time? I wasn't here for a while when the I-35/I-40 one was being worked on, but I don't think I remember one that finished on time (or had any kind of reasonable schedule - 8 years for this one? Absolutely ridiculous, and yes, I know the reasons why, but still absolutely ridiculous)

IIRC both the Dallas and Fort Smith interchange rebuilds were way behind due to funding shortfalls. There was a large energy recession in 83-84 (shocker) and I'm sure State road funds were cut. I will have to do some research on that.

Yay! Thank you, omnipotent Forum Gods! :DAgreed lol. This is something that bothers me for some reason just OCD I guess. :p

Oklahoma Department of Transportation (http://ok.gov/triton/modules/newsroom/newsroom_article.php?id=277&article_id=18479)

Work on this project begins in earnest today, according to the portable electronic message signs. This will be Phase 1a, reconstructing the ramps between Shields and Santa Fe on I-240, as well as relocation of the south-west service road.

it sure would be nice if they didn't block one of the lanes on 240 during rush hour where we're now down to 1 lane. It backed up traffic from 35 back to sunnylane today as they started putting up barrier. it actually could have been handled WAY better if they put the cones west of the junction since the work is after that. It would allow the 35 traffic to get out of the way and still keep 2 lanes flowing east of 35. keep 1 lane closed west of the junction for the work, but that still leaves 2. Instead, they made 240 traffic have one lane and then dedicated the other lane to traffic coming from 35 north, to 240 west....all 4 cars of it.

ODOT tweeted this morning that the eastbound I-240 off ramp to Shields is now closed for reconstruction. The eastbound service road is also narrowed to one lane for this project.

Yup. They've taken out quite a bit of the concrete sides, taken out the guardrails, lights, etc. It's sort of an odd location to choose as the start of the whole project since it's so far away from the junction, but i guess it makes sense to cut off those ramps that will be gone so they aren't in the way. It would be nice to see the east bound shields to 240 ramp go next. It's dangerous enough on a normal day, but with limited merging next to temporary concrete barriers its going to be a lot worse and there's NO room for anyone to get away from an accident there.

Looks like they're making progress on the new walls for the lane expansion under Shields. The temporary road is now active on westbound and it looks like they'll be ready for the new temp lanes on east bound soon. Couple of things though....

1 - keeping the east bound on-ramp to 240 from shields doesnt make any sense because of the mess that there is with the lane closure. Although i think it's oddly caused there to be fewer wrecks because people are moving more slowly. And then they've kept the off-ramp from 240 west. Both of these are in the plans to be taken out so im curious why they didnt just take them out to begin with???

2 - The big one! - The routed traffic to the temporary lanes on 240 west today and did it by closing the inside lane. Guess what that did? Caused a traffic backup....duh. They had been land shifting so far and it kept the flow going. I'm not sure what idiot decided this plan, but with 35 traffic merging EXACTTLY at the same spot, it's squeezing more traffic in there than it can handle. I've already emailed ODOT to ask that someone re-evaluate the way this was done to allow for better flow. It looks like someone took the easy way out by just throwing up cones and a sign...but it's not the right way. shave up the lane markers and put some temporary reflectors up with the cones to direct traffic.....come on people, think flow!

Well no replied from ODOT...no surprise there. But i basically saw something that would tell me there's no chance in hell that they'll change it. They left the inside lane "open" because that's the path the construction vehicles are taking to get into the area. Hopefully this phase dooesnt take as long since they dont have all that wall shoring up to do.

When i left on Friday, the west bound traffic was backed up from the Shields bridge all the way to the Sunnyland bridge. COME ON!!!!! There really has to be a better way to do this.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i35i240a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i35i240b.jpg

Someone with better eyes and understanding of road construction plans *please* help me. It looks like the phase currently under construction is depicted on that diagram as having I-240 go *OVER* Shields Blvd, but as I drive that stretch of road twice a day I see that's obviously (?) not what they're building right now. Am I just being a dunderhead and colossally misreading or misinterpreting that map?? Or is there a secondary part of this construction to elevate I-240 that I'm just missing??????

I think that the purple highlighting just went outside the lines. It's hard to tell with such a low-res map, though. There wouldn't be much of a point in switching the two.

The layout of this interchange reminds me a lot of the I-35/I-435 Johnson County Gateway interchange in Lenexa, Kansas, before the recent upgrades. It'll be a huge improvement over the cloverleaf, for sure.

I think that the purple highlighting just went outside the lines. It's hard to tell with such a low-res map, though. There wouldn't be much of a point in switching the two.

The layout of this interchange reminds me a lot of the I-35/I-435 Johnson County Gateway interchange in Lenexa, Kansas, before the recent upgrades. It'll be a huge improvement over the cloverleaf, for sure.

Oh, absolutely. I've been driving that route (i-240) nearly every work day for the last 30 years (gulp) and I'm delighted to see a rebuild start. It's a little disheartening to see that the next phase won't come for four more years, but at least it's on the map. It's heartbreaking to see accidents in that area nearly *every day* for all these years. I hope perhaps the reconfiguration of the ramps in this first phase will help at least some.

http://m.newsok.com/article/5529733


One of the most dangerous interstate on-ramps in all of Oklahoma is about to get a major upgrade under a contract awarded Monday by the state Transportation Commission.
A $10.6 million contract to revamp the southwest corner of the Interstate 35/Interstate 240 interchange in South Oklahoma City was awarded Monday to Duit Construction/TTK Construction of Edmond. The contract includes about $500,000 in additional incentives for early completion of the project.

http://m.newsok.com/article/5529733

Great news - especially work starting in 60-90 days. I'm guessing it will dovetail with the (near?) completion of the new ramps/paving going on right now.

Great news - especially work starting in 60-90 days. I'm guessing it will dovetail with the (near?) completion of the new ramps/paving going on right now.

Good news the work will be done, but yet another fleecing of the taxpayer and unnecessary traffic disruption with this project taking 4 years. The idea that this type of project takes 48 months to complete is complete and utter BS.

Good news the work will be done, but yet another fleecing of the taxpayer and unnecessary traffic disruption with this project taking 4 years. The idea that this type of project takes 48 months to complete is complete and utter BS.
I thought the NewsOK article said the total reconstruction would take 8 years, which is utter horse****!