View Full Version : A difficult poll to make us all happy and grateful



Teo9969
01-10-2016, 10:52 AM
So I got to thinking while I was at Rockford last night just how far along 23rd in is on that stretch. I had dinner at Gusto that night, went home with no particular plans and then talked to some friends and thought to go to Rockford. So I came to the same area twice in one night and both experiences were great!

Then I thought: Between Harvey and Dewey, 23rd might be as strong as any single place in the city in terms of Food and Beverage options. Perhaps I'll do like a tournament bracket in the future if this thread gets a good response and good conversation about how wonderful many F&B establishments in this city are. But for now, I want to pit this section of Uptown vs. the same Harvey to Dewey section in north Midtown (mainly 10th St., but up Walker to 12th as well).

Here are your lists:


Savings and Loan*
Bunker Club*
Rockford
Pump Bar
Drake
Backdoor BBQ
Gusto
Cheever's
Tucker's
Pizza 23
Orange Leaf
Big Truck
Old School Bagel
Thai House
Subway

*Not yet open

======================


Bleu Garten
Fassler Hall/Dust Bowl
R&J Lounge & Supper Club
Louie's Midtown
O Bar
Waffle Champion
Irma's
1492
Stella
Cafe do Brasil
Go Go Sushi
Kaiser's
Gigglez
The Viceroy

bchris02
01-10-2016, 12:02 PM
This is a tough one. Both have their pluses and minuses. I am going to say the more complete urban fabric in Uptown gives it the edge, and as more redevelopments happen it will get better. The view from the top of Guyutes is fantastic. Fassler Hall, in contrast, has great skyline views but you are mostly looking out over empty grass lots.

I would really like to see a similar development to the Rise with the strip between Lee and Dewey. I really wonder what is hidden beneath the metal awning there.

gopokes88
01-10-2016, 03:29 PM
Mines just a personal preference but I like the fabric of bars being built along 10th and into AA soon. Uptown is still pretty spaced out. (for now)

I like the food in midtown more. Pizza 23 is meh, gusto isn't my preference of pizza. (pepperoni pizza imho is perfection. There is nothing better then pepperoni pizza. Sorry gusto, you'll lose my business to empire 10/10.) I thought it was some sort of joke when I ate at backdoor. Tasted like it was brought from the store and microwaved, also the venue has no soul to it. A big part of bbq is atmosphere. Never been a fan of big truck. Love Tuckers but can grab one in classen curve.

Midtown has Blue garten with the trucks, packards is awesome, Broadway 10 is fantastic, fassler is great for a meal and a game, mcnellies is classic, waffle champ is great for brunch, etc etc.

Also, why is subway listed on the food for uptown? And is ludivine not considered midtown?

bchris02
01-10-2016, 03:33 PM
Mines just a personal preference but I like the fabric of bars being built along 10th and into AA soon. Uptown is still pretty spaced out. (for now)

This is true. Uptown is more spaced out, but there is a lot more existing urban fabric to work with. For me, I think Midtown will beat Uptown once there is a street wall connecting Walker to Robinson. At that point, Midtown will feel more dense and urban and will be a lot more impressive.

Urbanized
01-10-2016, 03:37 PM
Why pit districts against one another?

gopokes88
01-10-2016, 03:37 PM
This is true. Uptown is more spaced out, but there is a lot more existing urban fabric to work with. For me, I think Midtown will beat Uptown once there is a street wall connecting Walker to Robinson. At that point, Midtown will feel more dense and urban and will be a lot more impressive.
True true. It's kinda like picking which kid is your favorite at this point. I'm just pretty excited we have 4 unique eating/drinking districts not including bricktown. Deep deuce, plaza, midtown, uptown. Each with their own flair. Plus film row and the farmers market will be marturing into great areas in the next 2 years as well. (They are fun now, but wait till '18 and it'll be crazy)

bchris02
01-10-2016, 03:45 PM
Why pit districts against one another?

It makes for interesting discussion. I also prefer to refer to them as neighborhoods, not districts. Automobile Alley in particular is a corridor. I think the neighborhoods competing with each other and trying to one up each other is good for OKC.

bchris02
01-10-2016, 03:50 PM
True true. It's kinda like picking which kid is your favorite at this point. I'm just pretty excited we have 4 unique eating/drinking districts not including bricktown. Deep deuce, plaza, midtown, uptown. Each with their own flair. Plus film row and the farmers market will be marturing into great areas in the next 2 years as well. (They are fun now, but wait till '18 and it'll be crazy)

It should be expected for a city the size of OKC. It was lamented a few years ago that OKC didn't have as good of a bar scene or as many urban neighborhoods as Tulsa. That has now changed, just in the past few years. In '18 when Film Row and the Farmers Market area are added to the mix, plus new development in Uptown, Midtown, and what is probably certain to come in the area around the Metropolitan, this will start feeling like a real "big league city." Hopefully the possible apartment tower on the former Stage Center site is also part of the equation. The competition between the areas also really helps. The quality of projects being proposed in Bricktown today are far above those that were happening a decade ago when Bricktown was all that OKC had.

I also hope the Paseo becomes part of the story and that the proposed developments there happen. I also hope that the lot north of the Pump gets developed, as that will bridge the gap between Uptown and the Paseo.

Urbanized
01-10-2016, 04:01 PM
It makes for interesting discussion. I also prefer to refer to them as neighborhoods, not districts. Automobile Alley in particular is a corridor. I think the neighborhoods competing with each other and trying to one up each other is good for OKC.

Not when it comes at the expense of putting a district down or being negative toward it. These areas are not competing with one another so much as they are TOGETHER mending and repairing the inner city.

There is no end game to that line of thinking. Nobody is going to spend all of their time in one district, nor should they. Improvements in one district helps others not by competing with them but by drawing and keeping the audience in one part of the city, and by providing new and fresh entertainment options in one district for those who already live/work/play in another.

They don't compete with one another; they FEED one another. If they compete with anyone, it's the suburbs.

bchris02
01-10-2016, 04:10 PM
Not when it comes at the expense of putting a district down or being negative toward it. These areas are not competing with one another so much as they are TOGETHER mending and repairing the inner city.

There is no end game to that line of thinking. Nobody is going to spend all of their time in one district, nor should they. Improvements in one district helps others not by competing with it but by drawing and keeping the audience in one part of the city, and by providing new and fresh entertainment options in one district for those who already live/work/play in another.

They don't compete with one another; they FEED one another. If they compete with anyone, it's the suburbs.

I don't believe there has been anything negative said in any of these threads against any of the neighborhoods. Some are farther along than others but they are all working towards the same goal. I agree that they all feed off one another and all of them work together to make for a stronger downtown. But there is also some competition and that can be healthy. One can only look at some of the more recent proposals in Bricktown compared to what was being proposed a decade ago to see that. That's also why each neighborhood has its own brand and identity, and why things like placemaking are needed to support that identity.

In terms of the suburbs, right now there really isn't anything there to compete with what downtown offers. Campus Corner is far enough away from downtown OKC I don't really consider it competition. Memorial has lost its luster as a popular nightlife corridor. Chisholm Creek may be competition, we will have to wait and see.

Urbanized
01-10-2016, 04:15 PM
Of course there are other entertainment options elsewhere that the urban core is competing with. It includes the good (places like Top Golf) and the "meh", like Red Lobster or whatever. There is plenty to compete with, but currently not much of it is compelling! which benefits the core.

Urbanized
01-10-2016, 04:23 PM
Regarding the latest round of developments in Bricktown, those improvements are NOT because of competition from other districts; they are because a new and more enlightened (and better-funded) generation of developers has taken over. And also because the development in those other areas has caused the entirety of downtown to be ready-hot for developers and lenders. A high tide floats all boats.

So while you are correct that districts have a positive influence on one another, it has zero to do with "competition".

bchris02
01-10-2016, 05:30 PM
Regarding the latest round of developments in Bricktown, those improvements are NOT because of competition from other districts; they are because a new and more enlightened (and better-funded) generation of developers has taken over. And also because the development in those other areas has caused the entirety of downtown to be ready-hot for developers and lenders. A high tide floats all boats.


Good point, but why is the current generation of Bricktown developers more enlightened and competent? It isn't like Randy Hogan didn't have plenty of examples to look to (in other cities) in terms of developing a proper urban entertainment district and he could have got the financing if he would have wanted to do it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but my perception is that it was because quality urban development was a foreign concept in OKC back when Lower Bricktown was being developed. Slowly but surely the standard is getting higher. There are still areas that developers here need to work on, like street interaction and massing at the corner, but each round of development is bringing about a higher standard, not just in Bricktown but downtown wide. Quality development started happening elsewhere in OKC (Deep Deuce, Midtown, etc) before anything of the sort was proposed in Bricktown.

Urbanized
01-10-2016, 06:22 PM
That's fine and completely accurate to say that each round of development informs the next. Talk with someone like Gary Brooks and he'll tell you that each of his developments is better than the last, because he learns something new each time. But that has precious little to do with competition. It's just an example of developers and the community learning how best to do these things.

For better or worse Bricktown was the urban redevelopment laboratory for a city that at the time could not have been more culturally removed from urbanism and placemaking. Every district since has benefitted from its pioneering effort, and even Bricktown of today now has the benefit of hindsight to see what works and what does not, going forward.

The Lower Bricktown point is a bit of a red herring and detour in this discussion, because unlike almost everything else it was a massive piece of land, and the development was driven by OCURA. I think what ended up there is far more the result of lax guidelines and direction from that agency, especially considering how little experience local developers had in this area at the time. And of course I maintain that LB could still be very good (or at least far better) with structured parking and infill.

And, by the way, your timing is off to some extent. There are a number of Bricktown developments that were announced or undertaken essentially simultaneous to similar projects elsewhere but simply took more time due to factors like environmental remediation, design review, financing and other reasons. Again, it has been high tide for ALL downtown dustricts.

And again, this is not about Bricktown. I'm taking issue with the notion that dustricts in the urban core are competing with one another. That type of talk is more destructive than it is beneficial. Nobody need "choose sides" here.

Teo9969
01-10-2016, 10:20 PM
My hope is rather than pitting districts against each other for why the other one is worse, this is a chance to really highlight the good things about the district and provide positive criticism for what could be better about each individual district through comparison and contrast.

For me, this is a hard decision because there are so many good things about each area:

[This section of] Uptown has the best seafood restaurant in the city (state?). [This section of] Midtown has arguably the nicest bar in the entire city, and certainly the bar with the best view. Uptown has lots of "cheap eats" options but conversely few mid-range options (Cheever's and Drake are on the high side of routinely affordable for most people). Midtown has lots of mid-range options and conversely few "cheap eats" options.

If I had to do a Top 5 from these listed establishments I think it would be like this (the order could easily shift by mood):

1. Bleu Garten (During appropriate months) because Biergartens are life!
2. R&J because cheap good cocktails
3. Gusto because pizza & great wine
4. O Bar because great cocktails
5. Big Truck because tacos

6/7 would be Drake and Cheever's because they're just great restaurants…that would tip the balance toward Uptown for me, but it's great to see that both districts have such strong anchors.

Pete
01-11-2016, 05:50 AM
A few things left off the Midtown list:

* AGE Mexican concept in Swanson's Tire
* Nic's Diner and Lounge
Garage
Packards
McNellie's
Subway
Prairie Thunder
Brown's Bakery
Starbuck's
Organic Squeeze

And even though technically in Auto Alley, these are all on 10th in close proximity:

*Twisted Spike
Broadway 10
Sidecar
Kamps 1910

Pete
01-11-2016, 05:52 AM
Both are great but I tend to favor Midtown because I can walk everywhere from my apartment.

Tower Theater and the related events will be a game-changer for Uptown.