View Full Version : Bass Pro a success



Patrick
09-09-2004, 09:57 PM
So far Bass Pro has been a success in downtown OKC. And, you remember all of those smaller businesses that complained about Bass Pro. Well, all but a couple are now saying that Bass Pro has increased interest in the area for hunting and fishing merchandise and have actualyl led to increased sales at their businesses. They've just had to adjust some. OKC Bass closed, but in my opinion, they were going ou tof business long before Bass PRo came to town, and were just looking for a someone to blame their bad business on.

Anyways, bass Pro is exceeding all expectations.

This is great news for retail in Bricktown.

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"Bass Pro meeting sales goals


By The Associated Press

Bass Pro Shops' 10-month-old store is meeting or exceeding sales goals set under an agreement that paved the way for the city to fund construction of the $19 million building, company and city officials said.
The company pays the city $449,000 a year in rent, after operating expenses are deducted, for the store, but part of the rationale for city's investment was the expectation that the business would provide hefty increases in city sales tax revenue.

While the city and the privately held sporting goods company would not reveal sales tax figures for Bass Pro, the store contributed to an overall sales tax picture that has seen revenue grow 3.76 percent between July 2003 and June 2004.

Retail sales make up about half of the city's sales tax collections, said Jane Abraham, management and budget specialist for the city.

City councilors who voted in favor of paying for the 110,000-square-foot Bass Pro building, complete with wall murals and a giant tank of bass, believe the store has spurred economic development in the Bricktown entertainment district.

"We needed something to kick-start development in Bricktown," said Mayor Mick Cornett, who was a councilor at the time of the vote.

The city had already invested in the area through the Metropolitan Area Projects, but Bricktown still didn't have an anchor tenant.

Bass Pro acts as a tourist destination, drawing visitors in the same way Oklahoma RedHawks baseball games do, Cornett said.

Cornett does not expect the city to initially pay for buildings for other retailers as it did for Bass Pro.

In the case of Bass Pro, Cornett saw a lack of momentum in Bricktown and a need to extend the city's tax base. Bass Pro planned to come to the area, and Cornett wanted to make sure Oklahoma City benefited from the store.

He and other councilors attribute recent downtown development to Bass Pro.

Two hotels, a movie theater, restaurants and condominiums are planned for the Bricktown area.

"I think Bass Pro is the engine that drove all of this development to take place," said Council member Larry McAtee. "It has far exceeded my expectations."

Opening new stores is a big part of Bass Pro's growth, said Larry Whiteley, Bass Pro spokesman.

As part of its deal with Oklahoma City, Bass Pro agreed not to build another store within 75 miles of the store in Bricktown. In March, the company announced it would build a store in Broken Arrow, about 110 miles from Bricktown. Whiteley does not expect the stores to hurt each other's sales.

The company has 23 stores, and it will open three more in November and about 14 next year, he said.

"We're not the big bad guy coming in and running people out of business," he said. "We get more people involved in the outdoors."

Sporting goods competitors have had mixed reactions to Bass Pro.

Miles Hall, founder and president of H&H Gun Range in Oklahoma City, has seen a 30 percent increase in sales since Bass Pro came to town.

H&H set a record for sales in December, just after Bass Pro opened. The gun range and retailer topped December's sales in July, Hall said.

"From H&H's perspective, it's been wonderful," he said. "They created a buying frenzy."

However, H&H had to adapt to the competition quickly. The store stopped selling clothes and hunting scents, which Bass Pro could sell for less. H&H expanded its gun and ammunition offerings, Hall said, and it focused on customer service.

Academy Sports and Outdoors, with five stores in Oklahoma City, easily adapted because of its size, said President David Gochman. The Katy, Texas-based company has sales even with last year's, he said.

"We are larger than most and can take care of ourselves," he said. "It's the family-owned businesses that take a real hit."

Gochman questioned the wisdom of a city paying for a facility in the volatile sporting goods industry, and he called for Bass Pro to be accountable to the public for upholding its end of the deal with Oklahoma City.

Councilman Brent Rinehart, who voted against funding the building, believes the deal gave Bass Pro an unfair advantage over other retailers.

"The city's responsibility is infrastructure, providing services, not going into the development and retail business," he said.

Mike Brown, an owner of Outdoor Outfitters, has seen sales go down since Bass Pro opened. The store also hasn't hired as many part-time seasonal workers as it normally would because of lower profits, he said.

He has trouble matching the deep discounts of larger competitors and must look for products they don't have.

"When a big competitor comes into town, you evaluate," he said. "

Keith
09-10-2004, 09:09 AM
I'm glad that Bass Pro is a success. I've been in there many times, and each time I have been in there, the store has been packed. I could spend half a day in that store shopping, and still wouldn't see everything I wanted to see.

It looks like OKC made the right decision. :D

mranderson
09-11-2004, 02:05 PM
Although I am not a hunter or fisherman, I have made a mini hobby out of visiting the Bass Pro's in other cities. Each has their unique flavor.

Yes. It is a success. However, knowing there are more companies with the same demographic target, Oklahoma City should have gone into a bidding war with Cabel's. The other "tourist" sports store.

okcpulse
09-13-2004, 08:02 AM
I knew Bass Pro would be a success. I knew it would be a boon to Bricktown, and has jump-started a lot of private development in Lower Bricktown. Although some of that development was planned before Bass Pro was proposed, I'm sure that the store's traffic has pushed some of those projects into fast-forward. To those nay-sayers out there, and to those who were part of these "Taxpayers against ripoffs" groups, I only have one thing to say....Ha! Who's enjoying the last laugh now? I told you so!

Continue the Renaissance!!!

Patrick
09-13-2004, 12:42 PM
Although I like Cabel's, I just don't think they have the same national reputation as Bass Pro. I think we did good with Bass Pro. You have to remember....Bass Pro has only been open about 10 months. Give them a few years and let's see how many tenants they attract to the Bricktown area. Seems like Toby Keith gave more consideration to the Bricktown area with Bass Pro being there, as he was looking at other sites as well.

I still personally think PF Chang's made a mistake.......they're going to find that Memorial and Penn isn't the upscale area they thought it was. Although it has a lot of traffic, it's mostly families, not professionals.

Nuclear_2525
09-13-2004, 11:19 PM
It's Cabela's...just to educate you guys!!!! And I think it would have been a better idea to try and attract a Cabela's...not because its name is bigger around the U.S. than Bass Pro, because it's not. BUT Bass Pro is soon going to be in every city, making it less of a tourist attraction. Every city it spreads too means more people have easy access to go to it means less people will travel to go to it or go in to one in a city they are visiting...for instance OKC. Cabela's is not spreading like BP is...they are staying smaller, therefore being more of a unique thing. On top of being unique, OKC really could have used their position of being close to Springfield, BP headquarters, and could've had a much larger store. Cabela's wouldve wanted to move in and blow the regional BP's away. Take the Cabela's in KC. It is a huge store...much larger than any BP, other than the Springfield one. Anyway, too little too late. BP has still done some good things for DT OKC.

Patrick
09-14-2004, 12:33 AM
I still don't think the main purpose of attracting Bass Pro to Bricktown was for it to be a tourist attraction. I think it was to try to jump start retail and other development in the area.

mranderson
09-14-2004, 02:58 PM
Nuclear: I stand corrected on the name. I have passed many in my travels, however, it is still difficult to remember the actual name.

Tourist? Maybe not. Howver, knowing there were alternatives, I bet Bass Pro would have bought the building if the city had said "either pay your own way or we go to the competition." They also could have "jump started" the area.

Midtowner
09-15-2004, 08:46 PM
I'm still not happy with the way Bass Pro was built. As good as it is for Bricktown, c'mon folks, we got screwed. They're building a new Bass Pro in the Tulsa area without city money.

Not to mention the fact that the way they did it is just plain unconstitutional according to the Oklahoma State Constitution -- at least before the Supreme Court ruled that it didn't say something that it plainly says (what I mean is that they pledged our tax revenue to something that it originally was not supposed to go to without another vote of the people).

Why? Possibly because Gaylord Entertainment owns about 1/3 of Bass Pro.

Who knows?

It has been good for Bricktown, a person I graduated from college with works there. But I'll always wonder if OKC could have done it without making the tax payers give them a free building.

Patrick
09-15-2004, 09:20 PM
I guess you didn't read my other thread, because that's just not true. The city of Broken Arrow is forking over $20 million and the developer is forking over the rest.

And no, OKC couldn't have done it without tax payers putting up money. That's the way Bass Pro does business every where. Check my other thread for the article from OKC Business!

I'd be curious to know what the State Consitution stated on this issue. Can you provide excerpts from it?

I also was one to question using public funds to finance Bass Pro, but the way I look at it, after all we invested in MAPS, we had to do something to get the retail sector jumpstarted in Bricktown. And Bass Pro is definitely doing just that.

Personally, I don't see what any difference between this and the Bricktown Ballpark situation. We as taxpayers paid for the ballpark, which is being leased by a private corporation (Express Sports). What's the difference? And we built he Ford Center, which is being leased by a private company.....again, Express Sports. We refurbished the Civic Center, which is leased by private organizations.

I guess what you're probably saying is that you would've been more in favor of Bass Pro has it been brought up to a vote of the people???

Midtowner
09-15-2004, 09:24 PM
Here you go pal:

Section X-19: Specification of purpose of tax - Devotion to another purpose.

Every act enacted by the Legislature, and every ordinance and
resolution passed by any county, city, town, or municipal board
or local legislative body, levying a tax shall specify distinctly
the purpose for which said tax is levied, and no tax levied and
collected for one purpose shall ever be devoted to another
purpose.


As you may recall, the MAPS revenue was originally for certain projects. Some of that money was diverted AFTER THE VOTE to go to Bass Pro.

And no, for the record, Bass Pro built their own store in Tulsa. That is not how they always do business. That's just the way things happen in OKC.

Midtowner
09-15-2004, 09:25 PM
Oh, and if you can find me in the original MAPS proposal where it mentioned Bass Pro, I'll eat my words.

Don't spend too much time on that though. I'll give you a hint: It isn't there.

Nuclear_2525
09-15-2004, 10:46 PM
Broken Arrow is paying out the...for the Bass Pro shops. They are paying more than OKC did. BA is paying 20 mil for the store and 4 mil for infrastructure improvements. OKC only paid 19 mil. BA's mayor is glad it is happening this way so if BP ever leaves, the city will own the building to lease out to someone else. And yes...Bass Pro gets every single city to pay for their building. They haven't paid for one yet.

Patrick
09-15-2004, 11:30 PM
Thanks for the information from the Oklahoma State Constitution. Before I speak anymore on this issue (I like to try to think before I speak), I'm going to try to get the actual court dockets and do a little research on the acutal case.

Now, to the Broken Arrow issue. Well, unfortunately the information you provide it not accurate. Originally it was thought that Broken Arrow wasn't going to have to spend anything on the Bass Pro project when it was announced in March. But, it was too good to be true, as most things are.

Broken Arrow was given the land by Phil Roland with Stone Wood Hills development. But, once the land was donated, it was up to Broken Arrow to provide financing. It's important to note that this was a similar situation with OKC......Hogan gave the land back to the city and the city was responsible for building the Bass Pro store.
Broken Arrow owns the building and land that Bass Pro will be located in, not Phil Roland and not Bass Pro.

Broken Arrow is investing close to $20 million in the building itself and $4 million in site improvements. This is greater than the $18 million OKC spent, but it's also going to be a larger building. Broken Arrow assumed an already existing loan for $20 million from Bank of America. BA will pay this loan back in a similar fashion as OKC is recouping their money: through rent monies and tax revenue. The city is making a 20 year lease with Bass Pro. Again, Broken Arrow will own the building.

Okay, okay, okay....you may be asking....where's my proof?

Sure, I always like to back up what I say with proof.

My proof comes from 3 main sources (I've the listed the links below each one):

1. The minutes from the actual Broken Arrow city council meeting where funding was approved (this by itself proves Broken Arrow forked over the money). The link is from the BA council meeting on May 17th, 2004. Section 10D, Resolution No. 378 provided city funding from Bank of America for the $4 million in site improvements. Section 10E, Resolution No. 379 provided the city the land donated by Phil Roland with Stonewood Hills, LLC., and gave the city all the responsibilities associated with the building and completion of the Bass Pro Project....including the lease, the construction contracts, AND the $20 million promissory note with Bank of America to fianance the project, in addition to making a sales tax pledge earmarking much of the sales tax earned off Bass Pro for repaying the debts incurred by the city. It's important to note that the promisory note was already worked out by Stone Wood Hills, LLC, and the city of Broken Arrow simply "assumed" the loan. Thus they're responsible for paying it back and the property belongs to the city of Broken Arrow.

http://www.brokenarrowok.gov/our-citizens/docs/council-agendas/agendas_04/c051704m.pdf


2. A press release summing all of this up, posted on Broken Arrow's City Hall website:

http://www.brokenarrowok.gov/our-citizens/information/news/bass%20pro/bass_pro_progress.pdf


3. Durocher's OKC Business Newspaper, one of the most respected business papers in the state.

http://www.okcbusiness.com/news/news_view.asp?newsid=4525

Patrick
09-15-2004, 11:35 PM
Hey nuclear, thanks for backing me up. If anyone knows Tulsa, it's definitely you.
Anyways, I've backed us both up by providing the sources above. The Broken Arrow council minutes speak for themselves.

And there are a few places where the city doesn't finance Bass Pro....but in all of those places someone else has provided financing, namely a mall. Take Opry Mills Mall in Nashville, Tennessee, for instance. Opry Mills Mall is providing the space there, so the city didn't have to step in.

But, in all of these situations, Bass Pro is not financing the building. Either the city is (in the majority of cases) or the owner of the retail development is. Ha! To sit there and think that Bass Pro would shell out money to build a building! Wishful thinking!

Midtowner
09-16-2004, 06:06 AM
Pat, if you're looking to see the court cases against Bass Pro, they happened. However, the Oklahoma Supreme Court in too many cases has instead of following the Constitution decided to reinterpret it to fit their friends' political and economic agendas. I think in a case like this, they'd place the "welfare of the state" ahead of some silly clause in our silly constitution.

BA might have actually levied a tax specifically for that purpose. But MAPS sure as heck didn't.

For the record, I love MAPS and what it's done for the city. I moved downtown because it's starting to be a pretty cool place to be. I really enjoy seeing my hometown grow and prosper. I just wish it could happen the right way (following the law, etc.)

Patrick
09-16-2004, 10:18 AM
Hey Midtowner, I don't dispute at all what you state in regards to what the Oklahoma State Constitution says. In fact, I find it quite interesting. You also bring up good points about MAPS and how the money way used for Bass Pro. I appreciate you for bringing that up, because it has brought up a lot of controversy. At the time the city decided to use the "use tax" money from the MAPS Program for Bass Pro, Carl Sullivan, one of the former members of the MAPS Citizens oversight board, questioned the mone. He still does to this day.

I also realize that the Supreme Court cases occurred, so I hope you didn't take me the wrong way.

Anyways, you've brought this to the spot light, and definitely presented some useful information, so much, that I'd like to view the dockets and see exactly how the Supreme Court actually interpreted the law. They're public record so they shouldn't be hard to get.
You're right in what the Constitution states.

The city probably should've gone the route of Broken Arrow. They aquired a loan from Bank of America for the project, which will be paid back through lease payments and sales tax revenues. So, unlike us, they aren't using taxpayers money that was set aside from a penny sales tax, dedicated for specific projects. That's why no one is really questioning the legality of Broken Arrow's move.

Anyways, after listening to Carl Sullivan, I've always questioned the legality of the Bass Pro deal. In a way, the city has actually left us in a vulnerable position, because the money they used was actually set aside to maintain the MAPS Projects, not to be used to build Bass Pro.

I'm thinking that I read somewhere that "use tax" money wasn't designated for specific uses though, and could be used for anything, but I may be mistaken. Do you have any knowledge on that?

Midtowner
09-16-2004, 11:37 AM
None, sorry.

Patrick
09-16-2004, 11:54 AM
Oh well...I'll try to get in contact with Carl Sullivan. I'll let you know what I learn. I'm sure he'll be outspoken on this. Tha'ts what I'm looking for.

HOT ROD
09-19-2004, 06:21 PM
Guys,

while I agree that BP was a nice jump start to retail downtown, I have to say OKC got screwed (or at least screwed itself). Not because we should have gone for another store. Not because taxpayer money built the facility.

The reason OKC got screwed is the exact reason Nuclear alluded to in an earlier post; BPs are popping up everywhere!

We should have extended our "exclusion clause" to be 150 mile radius from the bricktown store, or better yet - no new stores in the six state region. You think these exclusions are a hard sell, well - we could have done it. We are practically giving BP the building, as the rent isnt anywhere near market value (even market rate for the rest of dt is higher than BP).

Now we will have competition some 90 miles NE. While OKC may be a better attraction than Tulsa, OKC should have thought bigger-time to protect its investment; ensuring it would remain a bricktown tourist attraction.

Like Nuclear said, it would have been nice to have something unique; it would have ensure its "tourist appeal."

Nuclear_2525
09-19-2004, 10:39 PM
That is exactly what I was alluding to Hot Rod. Now OKC has something that is not special to OKC anymore.

I disagree with OKC's being more of an attraction than Tulsa...simply because Tulsa is surrounded by large lakes. Also, there are the hills around Tulsa that are very good for hunting. Overall...a Bass Pro is a better fit for the Tusla area.

okcpulse
09-20-2004, 08:18 AM
It was my understanding that use tax money has no designation since use taxes are not payed by the citizens of a municipality, but by the construction comanies that use land to store construction equipment, etc. Use taxes in Oklahoma City are equal to our total sales tax rate, at 8.375 %. 4.5 % of course, goes to the state of Oklahoma, the remainder goes to Oklahoma City, which can be designated at the municipal government's discretion. I could not find any clause that stipulated the use taxes would go specifically for MAPS maintenance, although I may have missed it.

I'm not sure what specific statutes in the constitution outline the purpose of use taxes, although I can compare this case to a similar case, that being the GARVEE case, which was recently resolved in the Oklahoma Supreme Court. The judge ruled that GARVEE funds, or Grant Anticipated Revenue VEhiclE funds are constitutional in Oklahoma since GARVEE money does not incur public debt. GARVEE money allows states borrow against anticipated federal transportation dollars to speed up highway maintenance and reconstruction projects, namely the Broadway Extension widening and the widening of I-44 in Tulsa. The projects were delayed for several years because the GARVEE funds were disputed by a lawmaker, saying that the funds were unconstitutional since raising any taxes requires a vote of the public and that it would incur public debt. I guess the same could be said of use tax money, it does not incur public debt. Although federal transportation dollars comes from federal gax taxes, it is a tax rate paid nation-wide.

Regardless of the legality surrounding use tax funds, and although I enjoy having Bass Pro in Oklahoma City, Bass Pro has demonstrated poor business practices by getting the government directly involved with company expansion. Since Bass Pro repeats this practice in city after city, the company has managed the cheat its way into success, being the first known company in the nation as publicly subsidized retail, and its public perception will be forever split.

Nuclear 2525, we have shared many thoughts on the TulsaNow forum, you of course remember me as TStorm. I agree that Tulsa is surrounded by large lakes, hills and plenty of natural recreation which makes it a good fit for Bass Pro. I believe Oklahoma City is just as good of a location, but for different reasons. Although Tulsa is surrounded by large lakes, there are no reasonable sized reservoirs within Tulsa city limits. There is the Arkansas River, of course, and Lake Yahola. However, Oklahoma City has three decent sized reservoirs within its city limits and another three within the immediate metro area, all with plenty of fishing. Add the new Oklahoma River, quail hunting north of Oklahoma City and a lot of hunting just east of Oklahoma City, all of which allows our city to offer plenty of natural recreation as well. I feel both Tulsa and Oklahoma City offer plenty of natural recreation, but on different aspects.

Midtowner
09-20-2004, 09:59 AM
The Supreme Court's logic has me confused. How can you borrow and not simultaneously incur debt?

That's rhetorical of course. The Supremes have definitely managed to rip our Constitution to shreds. We really need a new one that the state is capable of following.

Patrick
09-20-2004, 11:17 AM
Well, they're not incurring debt because they're borrowing their own money...namely, use taxes. And I did ask around, and OKC Pulse is right.....use tax money isn't designated for a specific purpose. So that's probably how the city of OKC got around the State Constitution's statement.

Regardless, I agree with what you guys have said about Bass Pro. Although I'm glad to see it spurring development in Lower Bricktown, I'm not sure it will be much of a tourist attraction after Bass Pro gets their expansion plan completed.

But hey, look at it this way....is the RiverCenter Mall on the San Antonio Riverwalk really a unique tourist type attraction? Not really...it just has mall stores like Dillards, Foley's, Express, American Eagle, The Gap, Chicos, Victoria Secret, etc.

Here's a link to the beautiful RiverCenter Mall: http://www.shoprivercenter.com/

http://www.shoprivercenter.com/images/images/newrc_03.jpg

Nuclear_2525
09-20-2004, 05:21 PM
Yes...the RiverCenter may have typical mall stores, but look at it. OKC would be hitting it big time if they could get a developer to put a large mall on the canal like that. It wouldn't even have to be a typical mall...it could be a three or four story outdoor mall.
'

downtownguy
09-20-2004, 07:13 PM
OKCpulse is correct about the use tax; it's not the same tax that was approved by voters on December 14, 1993, when they said yes to MAPS. It's a companion tax that was created by the council itself, free of a public ballot, and can be spent on whatever purpose they choose (Moshe Tal had a lot of trouble understanding this). Elected officials aren't very upfront about this tax, and it would have been interesting to see what the county, with its troubled reputation, would have done with a use tax if voters had approved Sheriff Whetsel's sales tax last year. (To back up; a use tax can only be created to match a sales tax approved by voters).
Those of you in Tulsa might want to see how your leaders are spending the use tax matching the Vision 2025 tax (I'm almost certain they created one).

As for a canal mall, the trade publications are full of stories about how malls are gasping for life. They're rapidly losing touch with today's consumers. The newest rage is a town center, though good luck defining what that is. Some say it's what is being pitched by architect Anthony McDermid for the Flatiron area, others say Lower Bricktown qualifies.

- The Downtown Guy
www.downtownguy.blogspot.com

Nuclear_2525
09-20-2004, 11:33 PM
Yes malls are going out...thats why OKC should be the first to build a multi-story outdoor mall along the canal. It could be on both sides of the canal on a large section of the canal and people could get across from side to side using numerous sky bridges...it would be very cool!

Luke
09-21-2004, 05:30 AM
Something like the outdoor style mall, which I am a huge supporter of, might should be reserved for the Oklahoma River where there is more room. I feel like if there is a huge building on the canal it wouldn't fit the current style of smaller buildings on the canal.

Put something like this on the river:

Disney's Downtown Disney
http://www.wdisneyw.co.uk/ddmap.html

Universal's CityWalk
http://www.floridasfun.com/universal/citywalk_map.jpg

An entertainment, shopping and dining mecca overlooking the Oklahoma River.

Save the smaller buidlings for the canal. The big stuff, put it on the rivah!

:)
Luke

Midtowner
09-21-2004, 07:46 AM
I'm not sure if a mall could be successful there. Actually, the only way that I think it'd work is if free parking was part of the deal. Why go to the riverwalk mall and pay $5+ to park when you can go to Penn Square/Quail Springs and park for free?

$5.00 Parking is why even though I work downtown, I won't eat lunch in Bricktown and never have.

Luke
09-21-2004, 09:03 AM
I have never paid for parking in Bricktown when I didn't want to. For example, last Friday night Bricktown was packed. After driving down Main Street and not finding a spot, I drove to Broadway and parked in front of the Devon building. It's a nice walk that saved me $5.

I can't imaine a 5 minute walk or a $5 parking fee would keep anyone out of Bricktown. Plus, keep in mind that parking in most major cities cost a lot more than $5 or $6 to park in their downtowns.

mranderson
09-21-2004, 09:17 AM
I have been to both Universal City Walks more than one time each.

They both have covered parking lots and whack you for around $6.00 to park. Of course, that is also for the theme parks.

These concepts are the one's I have been writing about for Oklahoma City for years. Yes. They WILL work.

Here is another thing. Park someplace and take the Trolly. Or when they are launched, take the river boats. I would like to see Ferry's and southern type paddle ships along side the canal boats.

The fare for the trolly is only a buck. In some areas of downtown to brictown it is free with paid parking.

Has parking stopped me from going to bricktown? Yes. However, I am not one for loud, nightlife type entertainment either.

Luke
09-21-2004, 09:27 AM
You know what would solve this? Rail transit. More in another thread.

Patrick
09-21-2004, 08:35 PM
Amen Luke! I'm personally sick of seeing all of this surface parking in downtown. Fortunately, it's not as bad as Tulsa (they're putting in surface parking left and right), but it could be better. Why not build surface lots outside of downtown, and use rail tansit to bring people in???? That's how Europe and other civilized places do it.

HOT ROD
09-22-2004, 04:58 PM
Park N Ride (aka Kiss and Go, Kiss and Ride)

HOT ROD
09-22-2004, 05:07 PM
That is exactly what I was alluding to Hot Rod. Now OKC has something that is not special to OKC anymore.

I disagree with OKC's being more of an attraction than Tulsa...simply because Tulsa is surrounded by large lakes. Also, there are the hills around Tulsa that are very good for hunting. Overall...a Bass Pro is a better fit for the Tusla area.

Nuclear:

When I said OKC was more of an attraction than Tulsa, I meant an overall attraction. OKC has more than Tulsa, as it is the biggest city.

I do agree with you that Tulsa has more natural beauty but I do remember that Tulsa planted lots of trees a while back (i forget the program but they were vERY SMART DOING THIS). The same could be done in OKC and within 20years maturity, OKC could be even greener than it is.

Then perhaps, we could talk about OKC having more natural beauty than Tul, but for now - I meant OKC has more overall urban offerings. It just happens when you are the largest and most diversified city.

[Just wish OKC was as beautiful as Tulsa, the pop here would be double its current easily!] No argument there! :)

Patrick
09-22-2004, 07:41 PM
Hot Rod, the program you're referring to is "Up With Trees". They're a private organization, similar to Oklahoma City Beautiful. I know many on the Tulsa Now site have criticized Up with Trees (UWT) but personally I think the overall mission of the group is good, and it does seem like they have planted a lot of trees around Tulsa. Sure, they've planted smaller trees, but it doesn't take trees that long to grow. Just look at the trees that were planted on the Bricktown canal......it's been 5 years since the canal opened, and many of those trees are close to being full size.
Anyways, you have to start somewhere. I applaud the work Oklahoma City Beuatiful does. Their gardens around town are nice. But, flowers are expensive and they cover so little ground.....I tend to wonder if the money wouldn't be better spent on trees.

One of the problems I have around here is that we install nice street scaping, and then we just let it go. I went down NW 23rd just west of Broadway Extn. the other day, and it just doesn't seem like the city is maintaining the street scaping they installed there.
In contrast, Edmond completed a street scape project on 15th St., west of Broadway, and they've maintained it. Our city Park's Dept. does a good job for the most part, but I think in regards to street scaping, they do a poor job maintaining it.

I'm thinking that's the same complaint Tulsa has had with UWT though....they plant trees but then don't maintain the area around them.

Luke
09-22-2004, 10:10 PM
I drive down NW 23rd everday and you're right, Patrick. That street could use some fixin' up.

Patrick
09-23-2004, 12:08 PM
It's a shame too, because the city spent a lot of money on the street scaping project between Western and Broadway on NW 23rd. If they weren't going to maintain it, what was the use of putting all of those planters in? What frustrates me about our city isn't that they don't try, it's that they don't maintain things after they build them.