View Full Version : Historical Neighborhoods Discussion



BradF
11-05-2015, 02:54 PM
I'm a huge fan of the historical neighborhoods OKC has to offer. There's really a great architectural diversity in our city from bungalows, tudors (lots of these north and south of 23rd), all the way to the four square homes in Mesta and elsewhere. Here's an interesting Facebook page about our neighborhoods:

https://www.facebook.com/okchistorical

Having said that, my personal favorite is probably Lincoln Terrace because it's HIGHLY underrated and home to some rich history and prestigious homes.

We have many great historical neighborhoods: Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Lincoln Terrace, Putnam Heights, Gatewood, Las Vegas, Shepherd Historic, Jefferson Park, Paseo, Crestwood, Miller, Cleveland, Denniston Park, etc.

Spartan
11-05-2015, 10:54 PM
I don't think Lincoln's Terrace is price undervalued. It's one of the most expensive historic districts.

I think neighborhoods immediately west of Classen are undervalued, except for "Epworth" (OCU) which brings down everything else so it can be undervalued.

Uptowner
11-06-2015, 02:20 AM
None of my windows work and the floors are warped, gables too for that matter, it's too small and a fortune to heat/cool. If I want to fart in the backyard I need HP commision certificate of appropriateness, but even then my neighbors rat me out. It's all about location my friend. Given the chance: I'd demo the 3 neighboring lots and build a 3 story concrete masterpiece in a heartbeat.

BradF
11-06-2015, 07:57 AM
I don't think Lincoln's Terrace is price undervalued. It's one of the most expensive historic districts.

I think neighborhoods immediately west of Classen are undervalued, except for "Epworth" (OCU) which brings down everything else so it can be undervalued.

The prices have certainly gone up the past several years - and rightly so. But ask a commoner in the city about Lincoln Terrace. I'd be willing to bet most of them haven't even heard of it - at least not on the same scale as Mesta Park or Edgemere.

OSUFan
11-06-2015, 08:32 AM
None of my windows work and the floors are warped, gables too for that matter, it's too small and a fortune to heat/cool. If I want to fart in the backyard I need HP commision certificate of appropriateness, but even then my neighbors rat me out. It's all about location my friend. Given the chance: I'd demo the 3 neighboring lots and build a 3 story concrete masterpiece in a heartbeat.

Why did you buy it?

PhiAlpha
11-06-2015, 09:14 AM
None of my windows work and the floors are warped, gables too for that matter, it's too small and a fortune to heat/cool. If I want to fart in the backyard I need HP commision certificate of appropriateness, but even then my neighbors rat me out. It's all about location my friend. Given the chance: I'd demo the 3 neighboring lots and build a 3 story concrete masterpiece in a heartbeat.

Well in that case, I'm glad HP exists haha.

LakeEffect
11-06-2015, 09:16 AM
I don't think Lincoln's Terrace is price undervalued. It's one of the most expensive historic districts.

I think neighborhoods immediately west of Classen are undervalued, except for "Epworth" (OCU) which brings down everything else so it can be undervalued.

It is? What data are you using?

sooner88
11-06-2015, 09:21 AM
I think HP is really valuable. Neighborhoods that don't have it, like Nichols Hills, are seeing a lot of the original houses torn down in favor of newer style houses that look like they're from an Edmond subdivision.

Spartan
11-06-2015, 06:31 PM
It is? What data are you using?

No data, just anecdotal memory.

But here is some data:
Lincoln Terrace - Oklahoma City OK Real Estate - 7 Homes For Sale | Zillow (http://www.zillow.com/homes/lincoln-terrace-oklahoma-city_rb/)

Uptowner
11-07-2015, 01:26 PM
None of my windows work and the floors are warped, gables too for that matter, it's too small and a fortune to heat/cool. If I want to fart in the backyard I need HP commision certificate of appropriateness, but even then my neighbors rat me out. It's all about location my friend. Given the chance: I'd demo the 3 neighboring lots and build a 3 story concrete masterpiece in a heartbeat.

HP is valuable to an extent. But in neighborhoods like paseo it ends up hurting. Houses just get more and more run down until A: some fool like me buys with the money to fix it and live in a Cracker Jack box with fresh paint and plumbing. Or B: it goes beyond repair and gets destroyed. It's worth mentioning that most of the houses here are under 1000ft.

There's not much opportunity for a house flip or even making cute inexpensive rental homes. All the renters in the hood I know rent from the previous owner/resident who dumped too much money into too small of a home then couldn't bare to sell it, so they lease it.

Every time I've been to HP there's some sorry SOB who's unknowingly put color matching double planed efficient vinyl windows and inexpensive scalloped wood siding under the gables to flip it or lease it. Well guess what buster? Your neighborhood code warrior snuck into your back yard and took anonymous photos, you're caught red handed. It all has to be torn out and replaced with outrageously expensive boutique junk only a handful of contractors know how to do well. Can't afford it? We'll just plop a lien on it until you can. Bye, and thanks for trying to invest in our neighborhood!

I guess maybe part of its function is to keep those filthy renters out. But there's TONS of multi family in the area.

I speculate the result will be upside down money pits left by aged out or deceased residents that end up empty lots.

PhiAlpha
11-08-2015, 05:32 AM
HP is valuable to an extent. But in neighborhoods like paseo it ends up hurting. Houses just get more and more run down until A: some fool like me buys with the money to fix it and live in a Cracker Jack box with fresh paint and plumbing. Or B: it goes beyond repair and gets destroyed. It's worth mentioning that most of the houses here are under 1000ft.

There's not much opportunity for a house flip or even making cute inexpensive rental homes. All the renters in the hood I know rent from the previous owner/resident who dumped too much money into too small of a home then couldn't bare to sell it, so they lease it.

Every time I've been to HP there's some sorry SOB who's unknowingly put color matching double planed efficient vinyl windows and inexpensive scalloped wood siding under the gables to flip it or lease it. Well guess what buster? Your neighborhood code warrior snuck into your back yard and took anonymous photos, you're caught red handed. It all has to be torn out and replaced with outrageously expensive boutique junk only a handful of contractors know how to do well. Can't afford it? We'll just plop a lien on it until you can. Bye, and thanks for trying to invest in our neighborhood!

I guess maybe part of its function is to keep those filthy renters out. But there's TONS of multi family in the area.

I speculate the result will be upside down money pits left by aged out or deceased residents that end up empty lots.

I agree that they go overboard at times, but you moved into a historic preservation district, just as I did and it goes with the territory. HP guidelines were put in place to protect the history of the urban housing districts...the same history that many posters on OKCtalk are upset about losing to urban renewal downtown. I haven't had near that negative of experience with HP and of everyone I know that owns rent houses in the paseo or Jefferson (or has flipped houses there), don't know of anyone that has had that big of problem with them. I know people that have made money flipping houses there and who live in houses that they renovated and are very happy with.

In your backyard example, it shouldn't be an issue if the Windows can't be seen from the street. As it was explained to me and from what I've read in the guidelines, they only have jurisdiction over what can be seen from the road or the primary facade of the house. If those cheap windows were in the front the house, then those sorry SOBs you mentioned got what they deserved. They should've read the regulations and followed them before tearing out the historic Windows that those guidelines are meant to protect. Replacing historic Windows in the front of the house, especially the decorative ones, with cheap vinyl Windows can quickly ruin the character and curb appeal of a historic home. Restoring wood windows is not that difficult and with the addition of a storm window and some weatherproofing, can be close in efficiency to newer double pane windows.

It's hard to feel too bad for you when you knowingly moved into a craftsmen bungalo style neighborhood (which by definition is made up of houses that are around 1000 sq ft) that is a historic preservation district and are upset that you can't tear down or drastically alter a historic house inside of it. Prior to purchasing my home, I read through the HP guidelines to make sure I could handle them. Did you not research them before you purchased your house?

Canoe
11-08-2015, 08:30 AM
HP is valuable to an extent. But in neighborhoods like paseo it ends up hurting. Houses just get more and more run down until A: some fool like me buys with the money to fix it and live in a Cracker Jack box with fresh paint and plumbing. Or B: it goes beyond repair and gets destroyed. It's worth mentioning that most of the houses here are under 1000ft.

There's not much opportunity for a house flip or even making cute inexpensive rental homes. All the renters in the hood I know rent from the previous owner/resident who dumped too much money into too small of a home then couldn't bare to sell it, so they lease it.

Every time I've been to HP there's some sorry SOB who's unknowingly put color matching double planed efficient vinyl windows and inexpensive scalloped wood siding under the gables to flip it or lease it. Well guess what buster? Your neighborhood code warrior snuck into your back yard and took anonymous photos, you're caught red handed. It all has to be torn out and replaced with outrageously expensive boutique junk only a handful of contractors know how to do well. Can't afford it? We'll just plop a lien on it until you can. Bye, and thanks for trying to invest in our neighborhood!

I guess maybe part of its function is to keep those filthy renters out. But there's TONS of multi family in the area.

I speculate the result will be upside down money pits left by aged out or deceased residents that end up empty lots.

Buy empty land or run down house (tear down) and build new. If you have the resources. If you don't then you have the option of buying a poorly flipped house. You can also buy a house properly fixed, but it will cost you more than building new.

Uptowner
11-09-2015, 02:03 PM
Oh yes yes yes. I knew what I was getting into going HP. I've death with commercial projects inside the zones for years. I haven't had any issues with my house. I do however think the code goes too far in that it prevents practical upgrades(many contractors won't work in hp) and results in deterioration and in some cases, houses rotting into the ground. I will applaud Katie Friddle though as the director of the department she's doing a great job in a difficult position of staff recommendations around code that was piecemealed and written by laymen.

okatty
11-09-2015, 02:34 PM
I have no experience with HP, but am curious about thoughts on these houses that you see which were taken "down to the studs" and re-done. I assume that lessens some of the problems you see in old houses but not all. I'd appreciate some perspective on this as we have looked at a few of them from time to time but don't feel i have the insight to evaluate them.

Teo9969
11-09-2015, 03:09 PM
PhiAlpha,

I don't think comparing HP in downtown is the same as comparing HP to urban core neighborhoods. OKC does not have wide-spread dense and urban development history to draw from so every piece that is extant is incredibly valuable.

This is not true of single-family residences from before WWII. There are houses that simply aren't worth preserving, and there are houses that are absolutely worth keeping. Only in the best of OKC's historic neighborhoods (HH, MP, CH) can you say that a vast majority of the homes are of high enough quality that all should submit to HP guidelines.

In other nice neighborhoods like Putnam Heights, there are many houses that are unquestionably beautiful and worthy of preservation, but there are also many houses that just aren't quite there. It wouldn't be killer for some of those homes to be modernized or in the case of new build, to be built in a modern style in order to make the neighborhood more eclectic.

Certainly I think any neighborhood should strive for quality architectural aesthetics, but only certain areas, IMHO should be subjected to the super intense requirements of HP.

Uptowner
11-09-2015, 08:07 PM
^^^^^ I gues that's what I was trying to say the whole time. Some, no plenty of houses in these overlays are pure crap. There were tons of cowboy home builders in un-incorporated neighborhoods just building to sell. I'm not sure where the word "craftsman" comes into play. There's 2x4" gables on 30' spans, 6" floor joists that bow into bowl shaped floors. My neighbor has a 1929 home that we just discovered has newspaper, NEWSPAPER for insulation.

Urbanized
11-09-2015, 08:14 PM
Do you mean cellulose? Or actual wadded up newspapers? Blown-in cellulose was pretty common, and in fact is still widely used today. It's made of ground up recycled newsprint, treated with a flame retardant. If it's just wadded up newspapers that is something different, of course.

Tundra
11-09-2015, 08:17 PM
Do you mean cellulose? Or actual wadded up newspapers? Blown-in cellulose was pretty common, and in fact is still widely used today. It's made of ground up recycled newsprint, treated with a flame retardant. If it's just wadded up newspapers that is something different, of course.

I have seen many projects that newspaper was used for insulation , and it was not blown in cellulose. Newspaper was a poor mans alternative to the real thing.

Uptowner
11-09-2015, 08:24 PM
It looked a bit like cellulose, except minimal fiber, it went up like tinder, and 80% of it had print still on it. It looked like something a vendor made with a wood chipper. It wasn't blown in. Looked stuffed. Probably bought at the 1929 equivalent of harbor freight...

PhiAlpha
11-09-2015, 09:47 PM
PhiAlpha,

I don't think comparing HP in downtown is the same as comparing HP to urban core neighborhoods. OKC does not have wide-spread dense and urban development history to draw from so every piece that is extant is incredibly valuable.

This is not true of single-family residences from before WWII. There are houses that simply aren't worth preserving, and there are houses that are absolutely worth keeping. Only in the best of OKC's historic neighborhoods (HH, MP, CH) can you say that a vast majority of the homes are of high enough quality that all should submit to HP guidelines.

In other nice neighborhoods like Putnam Heights, there are many houses that are unquestionably beautiful and worthy of preservation, but there are also many houses that just aren't quite there. It wouldn't be killer for some of those homes to be modernized or in the case of new build, to be built in a modern style in order to make the neighborhood more eclectic.

Certainly I think any neighborhood should strive for quality architectural aesthetics, but only certain areas, IMHO should be subjected to the super intense requirements of HP.

I agree to a point, but if you become more lenient with it, where do you draw the line between what is demolishable and what isn't? Sure some houses probably aren't worth restoring, but I would argue that most in the historic preservation districts are:

Teo9969
11-09-2015, 11:03 PM
I don't know how you draw those lines. I also like to think that people know when something is worth saving and when something isn't.

I own two homes on the same street. One I will make a genuine effort to keep standing for decades to come. The other I wouldn't think twice about razing if the right opportunity presents itself even though it's a nice enough looking house. On my street there are 17 houses. I would say that 6 or 7 are definitely worth keeping, 6 or 7 that are good enough to keep, but if the right thing were to come around they're disposable, and 3 or 4 that need to be razed yesterday.

I would say if 38th street between Shartel and Walker is in the 98th percentile of Urban Core homes (With the 99th-100th being the nicest streets in Heritage Hills), then my street is probably between the 55th and 60th percentile. I'd say that my street could easily fit in with Jefferson Park, Paseo, Gatewood, or Putnam Heights even if it's on the slightly crappy end for some of those neighborhoods.

But that's the point, there are lots of areas within a lot of these neighborhoods that just don't have it.

At the least, one should be able to apply for an inspection approved variance if a home just doesn't have the craftsmanship involved in the original build to justify its preservation.

And who knows…maybe with some of these homes we could eventually even get Braniff quality improvements if we relax the standards a bit.

Canoe
11-10-2015, 04:36 AM
What would keep a clever man from buying a property, gutting the interior, neglecting the exterior (like main street) then letting nature demolish the property? I fear if you relax the standards or open a loophole then that is exactly what would happen to Uptowners crack jack bungalows.

If this was an acceptable method it would drag down the neighborhood as much as the current California landlords that rent neglected houses in the core. Externalities by outside enties is a real threat.

Teo9969
11-10-2015, 08:26 AM
What would keep a clever man from buying a property, gutting the interior, neglecting the exterior (like main street) then letting nature demolish the property? I fear if you relax the standards or open a loophole then that is exactly what would happen to Uptowners crack jack bungalows.

If this was an acceptable method it would drag down the neighborhood as much as the current California landlords that rent neglected houses in the core. Externalities by outside enties is a real threat.

If it's in a prime area like HH/MP/CH, the fact that they will have to build something that matches the guidelines anyway is a pretty good reason not to, especially given that the majority of those homes are of a high quality and are big enough anyway.

In other neighborhoods, if the home is already of a quality enough mold, then why wait for mother nature to ravish a home over 2 to 4 years, risk penalties, etc. when you could easily buy and flip or buy and use. If it already possesses quality features, highlight those features and get on with your day. You're not going to make oh so much more money by demolishing something you will have had to pay a higher price for anyway, and then build something marginally bigger from scratch and come out much ahead. That's just the nature of the beast these days.

If you applied for a variance, these are the types of properties that would certainly have a chance at being granted a variance:

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R046602720
http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R046606520

These are the type that likely wouldn't:

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R046601940
http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R046606000

The first 2 are made with cheap exterior materials, there is little distinctive about them, they don't represent even the good of the era from which they come. Both are under 1,500 sq.ft. (not saying that should be a cut-off point…but they are at least *more* obsolete than a home that is over 1,500 sq.ft.) Major architectural changes would have to be made to bring them up a category or two in terms of quality.

The second 2 are made with more expensive exterior materials, they have distinctive features that establish them as representative of quality architecture of the era from which they come. Neither of those are high-quality homes, but they are large enough to be plenty marketable in today's real estate environment, and they can easily be made to look fantastic, just by investing in what is already there.

Canoe
11-10-2015, 10:29 AM
I thought it was a good idea to have 1000 sq. ft. Houses so the neighborhood could have a mixed income. Isn't that a strength of OKC that we have rich people living close to poor people? I believe there is a place for marble countertops and vinyl countertops in the same neighborhood.

You are right no one is going to tear down the Hefner Mansion in Hertigage Hills to build a modern equivalent. All they would do is tear down 1000 ft^2 houses and build new 2600 ft^2 houses for the upper income professionals. By losing the smaller houses we lose a piece of what the neighborhood was historically.

If you want to tear down and build new there is a 600 ft^2 charmer for 30k on NW 15th just south of the plaza. Classen Ten Penn is not HP.

Spartan
11-10-2015, 01:06 PM
HP is valuable to an extent. But in neighborhoods like paseo it ends up hurting. Houses just get more and more run down until A: some fool like me buys with the money to fix it and live in a Cracker Jack box with fresh paint and plumbing. Or B: it goes beyond repair and gets destroyed. It's worth mentioning that most of the houses here are under 1000ft.

There's not much opportunity for a house flip or even making cute inexpensive rental homes. All the renters in the hood I know rent from the previous owner/resident who dumped too much money into too small of a home then couldn't bare to sell it, so they lease it.

Every time I've been to HP there's some sorry SOB who's unknowingly put color matching double planed efficient vinyl windows and inexpensive scalloped wood siding under the gables to flip it or lease it. Well guess what buster? Your neighborhood code warrior snuck into your back yard and took anonymous photos, you're caught red handed. It all has to be torn out and replaced with outrageously expensive boutique junk only a handful of contractors know how to do well. Can't afford it? We'll just plop a lien on it until you can. Bye, and thanks for trying to invest in our neighborhood!

I guess maybe part of its function is to keep those filthy renters out. But there's TONS of multi family in the area.

I speculate the result will be upside down money pits left by aged out or deceased residents that end up empty lots.

You need some education on how to competently care for historic windows:

Windows - Preservation Leadership Forum (http://www.preservationnation.org/information-center/sustainable-communities/buildings/weatherization/windows/)

This isn't hard, and I hope the above link helps.

Teo9969
11-10-2015, 01:32 PM
I certainly won't argue that it's nice to have diversity within neighborhoods. But you can construct a quality 900 sf home and a trash 2100 sf home. Nevertheless, the spectrum of "should absolutely be razed" to "should absolutely be preserved" correlates strongly with the spectrum of small to large.

Of course, I'm not saying that I want people to come in and raze houses indiscriminately, and I would certainly hope that there are many safe-guards in place to keep owners from damaging the character of our urban core neighborhoods whether through gentrification or through new development, but it's also important to remember that the present is history as well, and it is okay for old neighborhoods to gain new faces.

If OKC were to figure out the perfect solution, they'd beat every city in the history of the world to the punch. It's an impossibly complex issue. So I'm not by any means saying that my proposition is fool-proof. It's a genuine effort to find out where boundaries are to determine best practices for our city.

Uptowner
11-10-2015, 01:56 PM
Sounds like that 600ft charmer is just the kind of place you're talking about for low income. I don't know what you're talking about when you mention this utopian OKC where the rich live among the poor. Neighborhoods rise, and neighborhoods fall. Paseo fell for about 35 years. The arts district combined with fact that there are big plush homes kept high income families in the area while the multi-plexs and small homes deteriorated into flop houses and in the worst cases, squats, and drug/trap houses. Paseo is now on a big rise, in many cases the dirt far exceeds the value of the house, and the question being raised here is what houses can be razed, and what houses benefit more from inexpensive improvements that DO open a gap for modest incomes, and would we rather just let them rot waiting for rare opportunities for people to make less than stellar investments by fixing them out of love, nostalgia, or long term fixer-uppers. These are the same kind of people who dump money into the wrong kinds of classic cars...like a tricked out '78 4 door grand am.

Like I mentioned before there are TONS of multi family in the HP between 36th and 23rd. So many quality duplexes also. And tons of young singles occupy them and add a lot of youth and energy to the hood.

Bad duplexes: like teo's top link to the assessors site- many of the homes on my street, including mine. Were built as microscopic duplexes then converted to singles in the 60s and 70s. The bicycle tree house was actually built as 5 or 6 units. Some consisting of a single bedroom and a shared common area with bathroom for the entire floor. My house was built as mother-in-law with shared bathroom and kitchen. My neighbor's has a converted carriage house that the tennent had to shower in the big(1000ft) house, and sh** in the garage next to the washer/dryer hookups.

Despite the junky houses, the development in the core is causing the paseo properties rise. At the behest of my agent I made an offer on mine sight unseen, for $120 a foot, agent said she could have gotten $150 since it's such a big lot. It was on the market for 2 hours and had 18 showings scheduled for the next day. Not cheap, but compare it to the average price of $500 in MP, but there's an example of a neighborhood that needs the stringent HP code.

Now on to the subject of letting properties rot: the news on the block between 25-24th Dewey-Walker has gone dark for about 2 years now. Does anyone know anything? I'm so tired of looking at them like that. There's actually a gem Of a duplex on Dewey. Which after looking it up, to my surprise it's not owned by the sieber people. http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R047242975

Teo9969
11-10-2015, 11:26 PM
Sounds like that 600ft charmer is just the kind of place you're talking about for low income. I don't know what you're talking about when you mention this utopian OKC where the rich live among the poor. Neighborhoods rise, and neighborhoods fall. Paseo fell for about 35 years. The arts district combined with fact that there are big plush homes kept high income families in the area while the multi-plexs and small homes deteriorated into flop houses and in the worst cases, squats, and drug/trap houses. Paseo is now on a big rise, in many cases the dirt far exceeds the value of the house, and the question being raised here is what houses can be razed, and what houses benefit more from inexpensive improvements that DO open a gap for modest incomes, and would we rather just let them rot waiting for rare opportunities for people to make less than stellar investments by fixing them out of love, nostalgia, or long term fixer-uppers. These are the same kind of people who dump money into the wrong kinds of classic cars...like a tricked out '78 4 door grand am.

Like I mentioned before there are TONS of multi family in the HP between 36th and 23rd. So many quality duplexes also. And tons of young singles occupy them and add a lot of youth and energy to the hood.

Bad duplexes: like teo's top link to the assessors site- many of the homes on my street, including mine. Were built as microscopic duplexes then converted to singles in the 60s and 70s. The bicycle tree house was actually built as 5 or 6 units. Some consisting of a single bedroom and a shared common area with bathroom for the entire floor. My house was built as mother-in-law with shared bathroom and kitchen. My neighbor's has a converted carriage house that the tennent had to shower in the big(1000ft) house, and sh** in the garage next to the washer/dryer hookups.

Despite the junky houses, the development in the core is causing the paseo properties rise. At the behest of my agent I made an offer on mine sight unseen, for $120 a foot, agent said she could have gotten $150 since it's such a big lot. It was on the market for 2 hours and had 18 showings scheduled for the next day. Not cheap, but compare it to the average price of $500 in MP, but there's an example of a neighborhood that needs the stringent HP code.

Now on to the subject of letting properties rot: the news on the block between 25-24th Dewey-Walker has gone dark for about 2 years now. Does anyone know anything? I'm so tired of looking at them like that. There's actually a gem Of a duplex on Dewey. Which after looking it up, to my surprise it's not owned by the sieber people. http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R047242975

Those are all Landrun properties aren't they? IIRC they are trying to figure out plans for that whole block, including the empty land fronting Walker and 25th. I think the delay on the Rise probably set them back financially coupled with the fact that they are getting involved with several areas downtown.

Uptowner
11-11-2015, 03:56 AM
Sold to Floyd Simon in 2013. Landrun used to own them, I've also heard rumor they hold the note on them still. Most all of the block has been zones commercial. Which opens up all kinds of options. IF the owner was able to raze the homes. But at current rate, they'll fall down soon enough.

OKC62
11-13-2015, 10:03 PM
I would like to defend my HP neighborhood Putnam Heights against homes being worthy of tearing down. I am new to Putnam Heights. We are empty nester who have been waiting to finish paying for college and move back to OKC from Edmond. When we left OKC in 1992 we lived in Crown Heights. We did look in Crown Heights, but ultimately ended up in Putnam. The lots here are much larger than Crown Heights and we found a house we fell in love with a large beautiful yard. I thought maybe the comments about tears downs was due to the fact that perhaps the boundaries of Putnam HP are unknown. It is 38th, 37th, 36th, 35th and McKinley encased by Georgia, Blackwelder and Classen Blvd. If the home has a Classen, Georgia or Blackwelder address it is not in Historical Putnam Heights.

There is so much history here. When we first moved in we were found a wonderful treasure trove of papers left behind for us. They belonged to Judge Vaught. We have telegrams written to Chief Justice William Howard Taft Concerning Judge Vaught's nomination to the Federal Court. Judge Vaught lived in Putnam.

3825 McKinley was used as the Governor's Mansion for Governor J.B.A. Robertson.

Although some of these homes are not as stunning, the neighborhood has several architectural styles including English Colonial, Spanish Colonial, Tudor, Mission, Classical Revival, Prairie and Craftsman. We do have a few homes that could use some repair, but none that you would consider tear downs.

Everything west of Georgia and Blackwelder is not Putnam Heights Historical and it is full of rentals and landlords who do not care about the state of their properties. There are several homeowners west of Georgia and Blackwelder trying to take that area back. Please buy all these rental house and put in Mid-Century homes. I love them, but leave this little historical gem I live in as it is.

ljbab728
11-15-2015, 11:31 PM
An interesting article by William Crum.

Does Oklahoma City's appeal target historic homes? | Oklahoman.com (http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5460722&headline=Does%20Oklahoma%20City%27s%20appeal%20tar get%20historic%20homes%3F)


Every month, the Oklahoma City Council votes to tear down decrepit houses.

Owners seldom show up.

When they do, most likely it's to plead for time to make repairs.

That changed this fall when James Matherly's house at 2900 N Harvey Parkway made the list.

Matherly came to the council and all but said, “Tear down my house — please.”

Ward 6 Councilwoman Meg Salyer said in an interview she was concerned houses "can be picked off and allowed to deteriorate until they have to come down."

The city helped historic district property owners to act years ago to protect property values and the council has to respect that, she said.

LakeEffect
11-16-2015, 07:50 AM
An interesting article by William Crum.

Does Oklahoma City's appeal target historic homes? | Oklahoman.com (http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5460722&headline=Does%20Oklahoma%20City%27s%20appeal%20tar get%20historic%20homes%3F)

Really good reporting here. Demolition by neglect is a big problem.

Also, the City worked to stem this tide w/ their vacant and abandoned building ordinance, but they were overridden by the State Legislature...

Plutonic Panda
11-16-2015, 08:54 PM
This home is for sale

2218 N Indiana Ave, Oklahoma City, OK 73106 | Zillow (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2218-N-Indiana-Ave-Oklahoma-City-OK-73106/21858584_zpid/)

Teo9969
11-16-2015, 11:43 PM
This home is for sale

2218 N Indiana Ave, Oklahoma City, OK 73106 | Zillow (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2218-N-Indiana-Ave-Oklahoma-City-OK-73106/21858584_zpid/)

Perhaps one of the best arguments to save historical homes is that the living rooms were built without the TV in mind. There's always this cognitive dissonance I experience walking through pre-WWII homes because more often than not, I intrinsically realize the TV doesn't quite fit.

Urbanized
11-17-2015, 12:15 AM
^^^^^^^
If you really want to be authentic about it, you'd place an upright piano underneath the piano window that almost every pre-war house possesses, but which most homeowners today cannot identify as such. Screw mustaches and vinyl and fixed-gear bicycles; true hipsters should be gathering friends around the piano and singing Scott Joplin and Fats Waller tunes.

OSUFan
11-17-2015, 08:21 AM
This home is for sale

2218 N Indiana Ave, Oklahoma City, OK 73106 | Zillow (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2218-N-Indiana-Ave-Oklahoma-City-OK-73106/21858584_zpid/)

They would have good neighbors (my in-laws).

adaniel
11-17-2015, 09:16 AM
Ugh I am so jealous of that house, and only for 200K. A similar home that style in Dallas would probably be in M Streets or Lakewood and be well over 500K.

Canoe
11-17-2015, 12:16 PM
Really good reporting here. Demolition by neglect is a big problem.

Also, the City worked to stem this tide w/ their vacant and abandoned building ordinance, but they were overridden by the State Legislature...

I am familiar with this property and owners. It will be interesting to see what she builds on that lot. She works for a respectable firm.

Spartan
11-17-2015, 02:03 PM
Very good reporting by Steve.

The problem with demo by neglect is that it's difficult to pin down and do something about it. I am not surprised that it looks like the HP Commission finally pinned somebody down who is obviously demo'ing by neglect, after they knew what they were buying into with a historic district, and the non-accountable city councilors (those who owe nothing to voters inside historic districts) let them off the hook, while those councilors who are accountable to historic neighborhoods made an unsuccessful stand.

Now we can all turn the page on yet another chapter in the demise of historic OKC... a few more decades and we get to our goal where more of OKC will look like James Greiner's ward, less like the wards of Meg and Ed.

The argument that should be making a difference (but isn't) is the dollars and cents/sense. These historic homes in OKC are selling for $200-300 per SF due to market differentiation. You will never recreate a cute old bungalow no matter how hard you try and how much you spend. Homes in the OKC metro typically sell for... as sad as it is to say, probably not even $100 per SF. The reality is that there is just no value in most of our real estate.

Back when my parentals were home shopping while I was in high school it seemed like $130,000 was going rate for 2,000 SF. In order for these homes to be at all helpful in allowing middle class families to build equity, they need to be worth at least $100 per SF. We need to stop pretending that the low cost of housing is a perk. It's a huge liability and a major economic detriment that is holding OKC back. The only systematic way I can think of to combat that and build equity within our communities is to embrace market differentiation and really protect these historic neighborhoods. They are all worth so much more as an in-tact whole than as a disparate collection of some houses here and there. If we allow that asset to whither, just think of all of the dollars we are flushing down the drain in Central Oklahoma. For a low-income region, we can't afford our mistakes to be that expensive and irreversible.

Buffalo Bill
11-17-2015, 07:49 PM
I am familiar with this property and owners. It will be interesting to see what she builds on that lot. She works for a respectable firm.

More than that, it will be interesting to see what she is allowed to build on that lot.

turnpup
11-18-2015, 06:42 AM
This home is for sale, in Linwood Place:

Tudor on the Boulevard - 3139 NW 19th, Oklahoma City, OK 73107 (1458083) (http://tours.tourfactory.com/tours/tour.asp?t=1458083)

Uptowner
11-19-2015, 04:06 AM
Anyone else seeing a lot of "for sale by owner" signs popping up in mesta? I called on one out of curiosity and after 10 minutes of being told about how they made two bedrooms into a master suite and added a bathroom downstairs, took out a wall here and made the kitchen bigger, etc. They were firm on half a million for 2,000 ft. Kinda felt like they were just fishing.

It brought up the thought though that improvements like that, like dumping cash into a classic car, will never realize their investment. Any thoughts? For instance, you bought a mesta home in need of mucho resto, so you do the floors the way you want, the kitchen redo, the bathroom remodel, you paid 200 put in 200. Is it now worth $400? In flipping the answer is yes plus hopefully around 20-25% profit. But does that apply to a high end historic home? Let's stay in the context of the high end homes because I stand by my statement that half or more of the 20-30's houses are Junkers, or good flippers for starter homes/low income.

Canoe
11-19-2015, 06:09 AM
There are alot of houses in Hertigage Hills and Mesta Park that sell without realtors. The buyers are either baby boomers downsizing from Edmond, family money, or people moving in from out of state.

These homes are not selling to the middle of the middle class. They are selling to dual income families and above.

They are still a deal compared to the houses in SOSA or deep duece. Really there is a shortage of houses/housing available near the core.

turnpup
11-19-2015, 06:24 AM
Yeah, HHE, I'm thinking that right now it's better to get that non-fixer-upper that's already got everything done on it. It's amazing how fast improvements add up, at least those done to a person's personal satisfaction. If you were to really add up all the improvements made on one's house over a decade, you probably wouldn't recoup that, dollar for dollar, when you sell. I try not to think about it too much so my head won't explode.

Canoe
11-19-2015, 06:47 AM
Honestly there are places in the market for fixer uppers and completed houses.

If you are young and without children then taking a second job fixing up an old house maybe profitable when you sell it in 8 years. For alot of young men fixing an old house is more rewarding than call of duty or halo.

If you are an established family with more wealth than free time then the best bet is probably to pay a premium for a fixed house.

Uptowner
11-20-2015, 03:20 AM
It's amazing how fast improvements add up, at least those done to a person's personal satisfaction. If you were to really add up all the improvements made on one's house over a decade, you probably wouldn't recoup that, dollar for dollar, when you sell. I try not to think about it too much so my head won't explode.

More to my point. the market value might not reflect the Victorian wallpaper job and the gaudy plaster molding. I saw a $750,000 home in HH with a full on southwestern kitchen complete with chargrilled pine cabinets, wrought irons hardware, and roosters in the tile backsplash.

I just wonder if it's possible to ever see that returned in equity. I can see market value in a sprinkler system or a full pvc plumbing overhaul with a tankless water heater, central air, etc. But it an $80,000 nightmare of a kitchen? That bathroom you added to the basement to turn it into a man cave? Well that last one maybe, so I can play my call of duty and halo in peace :)

Plutonic Panda
01-17-2016, 02:44 PM
Another cool home for sale. 350k

732 NE 20th St, Oklahoma City, OK 73105 | MLS #715297 | Zillow (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/732-NE-20th-St-Oklahoma-City-OK-73105/21844359_zpid/)

Plutonic Panda
01-18-2016, 04:55 PM
Bungalow for sale in Putnam Heights for 140k

https://www.facebook.com/okchistorical/posts/1129760677048612