View Full Version : Christopher Columbus Day in okc may be over



Pages : [1] 2

Tydude
09-14-2015, 09:15 PM
OKC activists to request that city council replace Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples' Day | Red Dirt Report (http://www.reddirtreport.com/red-dirt-news/okc-activists-request-city-council-replace-columbus-day-indigenous-peoples-day#st_refDomain=m.facebook.com&st_refQuery=)

dankrutka
09-14-2015, 10:49 PM
If you've never read Howard Zinn's chapter on Columbus then give it a read: Columbus, The Indians, and Human Progress (http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html)

Columbus is incredible important historically for several reasons, but we shouldn't celebrate such brutality.

LakeEffect
09-15-2015, 09:08 AM
OKC doesn't "celebrate" the day in any way now, does it? Do schools get off? I know it's not a paid holiday for City of Oklahoma City staff; it's a regular work day.

Jersey Boss
09-15-2015, 09:15 AM
County workers celebrate with a paid holiday. Parking meters do not need to be fed that day either.

trousers
09-15-2015, 11:09 AM
I don't think its a county holiday.
http://countyclerk.oklahomacounty.org/files/cob/holidays.pdf

zookeeper
09-15-2015, 04:34 PM
Purging America's Heroes on Creators.com (http://www.creators.com/conservative/pat-buchanan.html)

Snowman
09-15-2015, 04:53 PM
Purging America's Heroes on Creators.com (http://www.creators.com/conservative/pat-buchanan.html)

Ironically it may have been the British having actively tried to downplay his significance that may have been behind him being honored with several prominent land areas/cities/etc in the us and the capital having Colombia attached to them shortly after the revolution.

Jersey Boss
09-15-2015, 04:54 PM
I don't think its a county holiday.
http://countyclerk.oklahomacounty.org/files/cob/holidays.pdf

Good find. The celebration is observed in some counties and not others. As you can see, Cleveland County does give it as a holiday. It is still a universal holiday as far as Federal Government is concerned as there is no mail delivery.

http://clevelandcountyok.com/documentcenter/view/797

dankrutka
09-15-2015, 05:04 PM
Purging America's Heroes on Creators.com (http://www.creators.com/conservative/pat-buchanan.html)

You can't make this stuff up. This is actually part of the case for keeping Columbus as a hero:


Acting on a belief in their racial, religious and cultural superiority, they created the greatest nation on earth. And people who got in their way were shoved aside, subjugated, repressed and ruled.

I'll never forget hearing Pat Buchanan (author of the article) complain on TV years ago about the loss of the good ol' days and someone asked him, are you talking about during segregation? He just kind of sat there for a second. He clearly hadn't thought about it from a different perspective and he clearly wasn't that interested in the point of view of others. His mind is still stuck in a time when white, male supremacy was accepted culturally and legally. Most people do not go after George Washington and Thomas Jefferson despite their status as slave owners because of the systemic issues (but it's an important discussion), but human rights abusers like Columbus and Andrew Jackson have no place as heroes in a society that values everyone. Their crimes were not minor. Times have changed and that requires reflection. As Faulkner said, the past isn't dead. It isn't even past.

dankrutka
09-15-2015, 08:04 PM
Good article on Anadarko making the change and OKC being pushed to do so: OKC City Council hears Native American request to replace Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples' Day | Red Dirt Report (http://www.reddirtreport.com/red-dirt-news/okc-city-council-hears-native-american-request-replace-columbus-day-indigenous-peoples)

zookeeper
09-15-2015, 11:22 PM
Double post. Sorry. See below.

zookeeper
09-15-2015, 11:25 PM
You can't make this stuff up. This is actually part of the case for keeping Columbus as a hero: "Acting on a belief in their racial, religious and cultural superiority, they created the greatest nation on earth. And people who got in their way were shoved aside, subjugated, repressed and ruled."

Remember how Sears used to advertise their products as Good/Better/Best? Do you throw out the good because it wasn't the best? It's only the greatest country ever built in modern times! That's what Pat is saying here. No, it wasn't ideal. In fact, let's just put it into context of his column - which you did NOT do.

What did all those named above, who would be Class-A war criminals at the Southern Poverty Law Center, have in common?

All were white males. All achieved greatly. All believed that the people whence they came were superior and possessed of a superior faith, Christianity, and hence fit to rule what Rudyard Kipling called the "lesser breeds without the Law."

Acting on a belief in their racial, religious and cultural superiority, they created the greatest nation on earth. And people who got in their way were shoved aside, subjugated, repressed and ruled.

As for the Confederates of the Lost Cause, they yielded to superior force only after four years of fighting, but their battle flag has ever after been seen as a banner of rebellion, bravery and defiance.

And those tearing down the battle flags, and dumping over the monuments and statues, and sandblasting the names off buildings and schools, what have they ever accomplished?

They inherited the America these men built, but are ashamed at how it was built. And now they watch paralyzed as the peoples of the Third World, whom their grandfathers ruled, come to dispossess them of the patrimony for which they feel so guilty.

The new barbarians will make short work of them.


That's the context. Since it was done the way it was done, let's retroactively rectify the sins of the ages old cultural icons and erase them to make ourselves "feel" better. Let's airbrush on a whim and wipe the "evil" out of history. And in so doing, turn a blind eye while we lose that country they built. Pat has been spot-on when it comes to our jobs being shipped away, to the PC social leftism that turns the world upside down to "feel better" (notably the "white guilt" BS - pseudo social science actually taught in our universities!), to the illegal immigrant invasion that will completely change the culture of Europe and the USA (already has, but it's getting ready to be completely unrecognizable.) Damn the White Male! Oh, the humanity! The Guilt! Hand it all over to those who seek to ruin this country from La Raza to Black Lives Matter to radical Islam. But, by golly, we got rid of Christopher Columbus and all those evil white men.

Absurd. And political correctness runs amok thanks to cultural leftists teaching this crap in universities. Shame(!) We are, I am afraid, witnessing the last days of the Republic as we welcome in the mob rule of pure democracy. Complete with the whitewash of our history.

mugofbeer
09-16-2015, 12:28 AM
Since we all know Christopher Columbus was only the first RECORDED discoverer of America, perhaps the Holiday should celebrate all of the Founders-- from the Native Americans who crossed the land bridge from Asia to the Vikings to the various other groups who made it here that DNA testing is starting to uncover. Lets just celebrate our diverse heritage and not focus on one individual who lived in a time that people had flaws some cant accept as part of the culture of the time. I am sure that flaws can be found in every society worldwide over every century. Call it Founders Day and teach about them all.

Ginkasa
09-16-2015, 12:29 AM
Remember how Sears used to advertise their products as Good/Better/Best? Do you throw out the good because it wasn't the best? It's only the greatest country ever built in modern times! That's what Pat is saying here. No, it wasn't ideal. In fact, let's just put it into context of his column - which you did NOT do.

What did all those named above, who would be Class-A war criminals at the Southern Poverty Law Center, have in common?

All were white males. All achieved greatly. All believed that the people whence they came were superior and possessed of a superior faith, Christianity, and hence fit to rule what Rudyard Kipling called the "lesser breeds without the Law."

Acting on a belief in their racial, religious and cultural superiority, they created the greatest nation on earth. And people who got in their way were shoved aside, subjugated, repressed and ruled.

As for the Confederates of the Lost Cause, they yielded to superior force only after four years of fighting, but their battle flag has ever after been seen as a banner of rebellion, bravery and defiance.

And those tearing down the battle flags, and dumping over the monuments and statues, and sandblasting the names off buildings and schools, what have they ever accomplished?

They inherited the America these men built, but are ashamed at how it was built. And now they watch paralyzed as the peoples of the Third World, whom their grandfathers ruled, come to dispossess them of the patrimony for which they feel so guilty.

The new barbarians will make short work of them.


That's the context. Since it was done the way it was done, let's retroactively rectify the sins of the ages old cultural icons and erase them to make ourselves "feel" better. Let's airbrush on a whim and wipe the "evil" out of history. And in so doing, turn a blind eye while we lose that country they built. Pat has been spot-on when it comes to our jobs being shipped away, to the PC social leftism that turns the world upside down to "feel better" (notably the "white guilt" BS - pseudo social science actually taught in our universities!), to the illegal immigrant invasion that will completely change the culture of Europe and the USA (already has, but it's getting ready to be completely unrecognizable.) Damn the White Male! Oh, the humanity! The Guilt! Hand it all over to those who seek to ruin this country from La Raza to Black Lives Matter to radical Islam. But, by golly, we got rid of Christopher Columbus and all those evil white men.

Absurd. And political correctness runs amok thanks to cultural leftists teaching this crap in universities. Shame(!) We are, I am afraid, witnessing the last days of the Republic as we welcome in the mob rule of pure democracy. Complete with the whitewash of our history.


Politics is leaking.

mugofbeer
09-16-2015, 12:30 AM
Politics leaks from those who want to erase our history, too.

dankrutka
09-16-2015, 01:36 AM
In fact, let's just put it into context of his column - which you did NOT do.

The quote I posted was consistent with Buchanan's article and message... and even the passage you posted. No one is saying all white males should be stricken - in fact, I actually made that exact point in my previous post. But Columbus literally ordered men to put other human beings to death, cut off parts of their bodies, and all in the name of gold and God. Is that who we should celebrate and honor? This has nothing to do with being "PC," and everything to do with evaluating the historical record and our values. If you agree with genocide - literally, the Arawak people are gone from planet earth - then that's your call, but that's not in line with my values. Is being anti-genocide (i.e., elminating a people because of their race) in line with your values? The details are pretty horrifying if you'd like to read them (http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html).

There are few calls to completely be rid of the legacies of Jefferson, Washington, or Franklin (who actually condemned American slavery and the inequality of the Constitution at the Constitutional Convention). It's funny you speak of "whitewashing history" because that's what has been taught in schools for most of our history. Our history and country can stand on it's own two feet... we don't need to avoid the blemishes to be proud of what America was and is.

dankrutka
09-16-2015, 01:44 AM
Politics leaks from those who want to erase our history, too.

Absolutely. And that's kind of the point. Some people want to continue to suppress historical perspectives that have traditionally been suppressed (e.g., indigenous, black, women...). Again, you'll never see me argue that Columbus shouldn't be taught. He has to be taught. But the telling should be complex, multifacted, and from multiple perspectives. I'm not hear to bash Columbus. He's long gone. I just want the historical record set straight.

Jeepnokc
09-16-2015, 06:53 AM
County workers celebrate with a paid holiday. Parking meters do not need to be fed that day either.

Actually, if it isn't a city holiday....meter maids will ticket you. We made this argument to the great late Judge Manger a few years before his passing and he just chuckled and grinned as he told us to go pay the $15. Wasn't worth the effort to take up to higher court and not enough people being ticketed on the once or twice a year this happens to make it class action worthy.

Jersey Boss
09-16-2015, 11:07 AM
Actually, if it isn't a city holiday....meter maids will ticket you. We made this argument to the great late Judge Manger a few years before his passing and he just chuckled and grinned as he told us to go pay the $15. Wasn't worth the effort to take up to higher court and not enough people being ticketed on the once or twice a year this happens to make it class action worthy.

Jeep, I stand corrected. I am a victim of the dreaded syndrome of "back in the day..." The agency I work for used to provide services in OKC which we no longer do. I remember how that used to be a free day at the meters and thought that it still was. Any idea when that changed?

Edgar
09-16-2015, 02:34 PM
'89 Day celcbrations need to go the way of Columbus Day. Our fellow native citizens don't find the history quaint. remember Fallin's hilarious speech at the gop convention about the land run participants proved ambitious people didn't need help from their government to succeed.

SouthSide
09-16-2015, 07:05 PM
My Oklahoma history class is but a distant memory but wasn't the 89 land run for the unassigned lands?

jerrywall
09-16-2015, 07:16 PM
My Oklahoma history class is but a distant memory but wasn't the 89 land run for the unassigned lands?

Yes. And the requirements to improve the land and work it in order to eventually obtain title to it were tough.

mugofbeer
09-16-2015, 08:29 PM
'89 Day celcbrations need to go the way of Columbus Day. Our fellow native citizens don't find the history quaint. remember Fallin's hilarious speech at the gop convention about the land run participants proved ambitious people didn't need help from their government to succeed.

I'm sorry. While there is no doubt Native Americans were screwed over in a big way across the nation, what you propose is just political correctness. History is choc full of wars and one group of people conquering another. If we drop 89er day then we should also drop the 4th of July. After all, our native citizens may possibly not find the history quaint. Maybe we'll also need to stop having turkey dinners at Thanksgiving because, after all, the native citizens offered the Pilgrims food and then found themselves a conquered people. I dont love how everything scripted out but I'm not going to be ashamed, either.

dankrutka
09-16-2015, 11:00 PM
I'm sorry. While there is no doubt Native Americans were screwed over in a big way across the nation, what you propose is just political correctness. History is choc full of wars and one group of people conquering another. If we drop 89er day then we should also drop the 4th of July. After all, our native citizens may possibly not find the history quaint. Maybe we'll also need to stop having turkey dinners at Thanksgiving because, after all, the native citizens offered the Pilgrims food and then found themselves a conquered people. I dont love how everything scripted out but I'm not going to be ashamed, either.

I think the point is to quit reenacting the land run, which is usually done without historical context or explanation, not quit teaching about it. Historical simulations done in schools are almost always terrible teaching that is historically inaccurate and serves little educational purpose.

I taught about the Land Run using multiple sources including primary documents, the end scene from Far and Away, maps of indigenous lands, the aims and methods of Boomers, etc. Going outside and inaccurately reenacting the Land Run would have added little to our understanding. I did take my students outside and talk about how the Land Run happened.

Also, these discussions remain far more productive and useful if we actually argue the merit of specific cases. The PC argument is a strawman because no one is arguing in this thread to get rid of Thanksgiving, the 4th of Juiy, and every celebration. If you understand the history around Columbus then changing Columbus Day is a no brainer. Columbus should be taught for his accomplishments, but also for his brutality and greed. He just shouldn't be turned into a hero. The Land Run similarly needs a complex telling, which reenactments rarely lead to.

dankrutka
09-16-2015, 11:02 PM
My Oklahoma history class is but a distant memory but wasn't the 89 land run for the unassigned lands?

Here's a good, short history of how the terms Boomer and Sooner came out of the Land Run: Better to be Okies than Boomers and Sooners - NonDoc (http://nondoc.com/2015/09/03/better-to-be-okies-than-boomers-and-sooners/)

mugofbeer
09-17-2015, 06:29 PM
8
If you understand the history around Columbus then changing Columbus Day is a nonbrainer. Columbus should be taught for his accomplishments, but also for his brutality and greed. He just shouldn't be turned into a hero. The Land Run similarly needs a complex telling, which reenactments rarely lead to.

If you look at my earlier posts, I pretty much agree with your final post. However, when people start to propose to change or eliminate American institutions, it usually boils down to concern over someone being "offended" or more far left self-loathing. The poster proposed doing away with 89er day which I totally oppose. If we want to make it a day to more stress the actual history, then fine. Elimination is to reduce the unique way our state came about for the sake of being PC.

hoya
09-18-2015, 07:41 AM
Columbus was a prick, but you also have to understand that in 1492, not only did Columbus sail the ocean blue, but Spain finally managed to drive out Muslim invaders after 500 years. They needed money and they were filled with religious fervor. That's the kind of thing that happens after being on the receiving end of a half-millennium of holy war. Was he a good guy? No, probably not. Do we need to make it "indigenous peoples day"? No, that name sucks and it's just more liberal hand-wringing. "Oh my! Someone was oppressed somewhere a long time ago! We should rename something to show the guilt we feel!" Judging historical figures by modern standards is really a waste of time.

Not all the natives were super nice people. Remember that there were still guys chopping people's heads off and ripping their hearts out on top of pyramids in Mexico. Those are some of the indigenous people you're wanting to name a day after.

Swake
09-18-2015, 08:25 AM
I'm sorry. While there is no doubt Native Americans were screwed over in a big way across the nation, what you propose is just political correctness. History is choc full of wars and one group of people conquering another. If we drop 89er day then we should also drop the 4th of July. After all, our native citizens may possibly not find the history quaint. Maybe we'll also need to stop having turkey dinners at Thanksgiving because, after all, the native citizens offered the Pilgrims food and then found themselves a conquered people. I dont love how everything scripted out but I'm not going to be ashamed, either.

But Columbus didn't "discover" the Americas and he was a particularly vile and evil person. Even for his time. The little story you were told as a child is a lie.

Edgar
09-18-2015, 09:20 AM
I'm sorry. While there is no doubt Native Americans were screwed over in a big way across the nation, what you propose is just political correctness. History is choc full of wars and one group of people conquering another. If we drop 89er day then we should also drop the 4th of July. After all, our native citizens may possibly not find the history quaint. Maybe we'll also need to stop having turkey dinners at Thanksgiving because, after all, the native citizens offered the Pilgrims food and then found themselves a conquered people. I dont love how everything scripted out but I'm not going to be ashamed, either. You don't think it's rather insensitive to glorify the land run with myopic celebrations knowing what it meant to the residents of Indian territory. as long as the grass grows and the water flows right? Thanksgiving started as a harvest celebration and peace between the Pilgrims and Wampanoag which actually lasted some years until the next wave of violent Europeans.

dankrutka
09-18-2015, 10:05 AM
Columbus was a prick, but you also have to understand that in 1492, not only did Columbus sail the ocean blue, but Spain finally managed to drive out Muslim invaders after 500 years. They needed money and they were filled with religious fervor. That's the kind of thing that happens after being on the receiving end of a half-millennium of holy war. Was he a good guy? No, probably not. Do we need to make it "indigenous peoples day"? No, that name sucks and it's just more liberal hand-wringing. "Oh my! Someone was oppressed somewhere a long time ago! We should rename something to show the guilt we feel!" Judging historical figures by modern standards is really a waste of time.

Not all the natives were super nice people. Remember that there were still guys chopping people's heads off and ripping their hearts out on top of pyramids in Mexico. Those are some of the indigenous people you're wanting to name a day after.

What would be your criteria for selecting which people deserve days of celebration? I have a hard time believing Columbus would top anyone's list who has actually thought about it. There are many more deserving people.

Bringing in traditions of totally different indigenous people's to justify that "well everyone killed everyone back then" is such a weak and inaccurate historical argument. This may come as a surprise, but all indigenous people are not the same. No no one here has made the suggestion that because of Columbus, no Europeans should ever be celebrated. Columbus' part in the complete genocide of the Arawak people is not standard history of the day... his brutality was exceptional and his justifications (i.e., money, God) were despicable.

You can always tell when someone has a weak argument because they start thowing "liberal" around in their posts instead of constructing an actual argument. I don't mind disagreement, but quit trying to label people because they don't agree with you.

dankrutka
09-18-2015, 10:10 AM
8

If you look at my earlier posts, I pretty much agree with your final post. However, when people start to propose to change or eliminate American institutions, it usually boils down to concern over someone being "offended" or more far left self-loathing. The poster proposed doing away with 89er day which I totally oppose. If we want to make it a day to more stress the actual history, then fine. Elimination is to reduce the unique way our state came about for the sake of being PC.

I agree that we mostly agree. I don't agree that all American institutions need to be maintained. The only constant is change, right? The U.S. has a lot of great traditions and holidays, but some that should be reassessed.

I think 89er day is complicated. How would you feel if you were a Native American student who understood the history of Boomers who aimed to push your people off their land, and then your teacher required you to participate in part of the historical destruction of your own people? There's a misunderstanding that just because there was unassigned land that it wasn't part of the broader movement to eliminate indigenous ways of life.

hoya
09-18-2015, 11:03 AM
What would be your criteria for selecting which people deserve days of celebration? I have a hard time believing Columbus would top anyone's list who has actually thought about it. There are many more deserving people.

We aren't creating Columbus Day today. It has been around for a long time. The standard of creating a new holiday is different from that of maintaining an existing one. At the least, Columbus is an incredibly important historical figure. I agree, if we were picking guys to get their own holiday today, he probably wouldn't get one. But we aren't.


Bringing in traditions of totally different indigenous people's to justify that "well everyone killed everyone back then" is such a weak and inaccurate historical argument. This may come as a surprise, but all indigenous people are not the same. No no one here has made the suggestion that because of Columbus, no Europeans should ever be celebrated. Columbus' part in the complete genocide of the Arawak people is not standard history of the day... his brutality was exceptional and his justifications (i.e., money, God) were despicable.

No, I think Columbus was about the same as everyone else back then. And when you're talking about "indigenous people day", I think the actions of other indigenous people should be taken into account. Plus it's still a stupid name.


You can always tell when someone has a weak argument because they start thowing "liberal" around in their posts instead of constructing an actual argument. I don't mind disagreement, but quit trying to label people because they don't agree with you.

It's a wholly liberal thing. I think anyone who reads my posts knows that I am very moderate, and rarely throw around those labels. But this is one of the big problems with the left wing. The Republican party has a lot of issues, but this kind of hand-wringing isn't one of them.

hoya
09-18-2015, 11:05 AM
I agree that we mostly agree. I don't agree that all American institutions need to be maintained. The only constant is change, right? The U.S. has a lot of great traditions and holidays, but some that should be reassessed.

I think 89er day is complicated. How would you feel if you were a Native American student who understood the history of Boomers who aimed to push your people off their land, and then your teacher required you to participate in part of the historical destruction of your own people? There's a misunderstanding that just because there was unassigned land that it wasn't part of the broader movement to eliminate indigenous ways of life.

How many Native American kids who complain to their teachers are being forced to participate in a Land Run re-enactment?

jerrywall
09-18-2015, 11:18 AM
If we're gonna replace Columbus day with something, then we should hold whomever we name it after to similar standards. Did they ever war with, wipe out, enslave, or kill others?

Hrm, indigenous people are out I guess.

mugofbeer
09-18-2015, 12:37 PM
You don't think it's rather insensitive to glorify the land run with myopic celebrations knowing what it meant to the residents of Indian territory. as long as the grass grows and the water flows right? Thanksgiving started as a harvest celebration and peace between the Pilgrims and Wampanoag which actually lasted some years until the next wave of violent Europeans.

No. I don't, because to accept your point then it would also be myoplic to celebrate the birth of the US. I think we all agree Native Americans have lost a way of life. That doesn't mean I'm going to not celebrate the unique way OK statehood came about. I'm fine with telling the truth but the truth is that it was the start of a pretty successful state.

While we're at it, go back and read the other recent posts. Others have correctly stated that Native Americans were not all peace-loving, friendly pacefists. There were violent, expansive tribes all over America that frequently attacked other tribes as well as Europeans.

Jersey Boss
09-18-2015, 12:49 PM
The Republican party has a lot of issues, but this kind of hand-wringing isn't one of them.

I would opine that based on the demographics of the Oklahoma GOP that there is not any empathy for the reasons people are seeking a change. And while Columbus day has been around a "long time", that is relative. It was not until the 1930's it was made a holiday. It was made a holiday at the behest of the Knights of Columbus and an influential Italian leader in NYC. As to your contention that this is "liberal handwringing" 2 of the 4 states that do not observe are Alaska and South Dakota. neither of which is a bastion of liberalism.

Personally I feel that "Custer" County is a bigger affront to the indigenous population of our state.

Martin
09-18-2015, 12:55 PM
let's just agree to move 'leif erikson day' a few days over and call it even steven. -M

jerrywall
09-18-2015, 01:03 PM
let's just agree to move 'leif erikson day' a few days over and call it even steven. -M

That's October 9th.

Jersey Boss
09-18-2015, 01:06 PM
"Americus Day " would be more appropriate as the United States is so frequently referred to as "America".

Martin
09-18-2015, 01:08 PM
That's October 9th.

hence we'll just move it a 'few days over' to match columbus day -M

Martin
09-18-2015, 01:13 PM
"Americus Day " would be more appropriate as the United States is so frequently referred to as "America".

in all seriousness, i don't have a problem with places that choose to celebrate "discoverers' day." that way those who feel that the holiday is too euro-centric can celebrate the discoverer of their choice. -M

mugofbeer
09-18-2015, 02:01 PM
"Americus Day " would be more appropriate as the United States is so frequently referred to as "America".

Sounds too much like Hannukwanzamas

dankrutka
09-18-2015, 02:14 PM
How many Native American kids who complain to their teachers are being forced to participate in a Land Run re-enactment?

How many don't? Do you know? I would suspect that there are plenty of Native Americans who are unhappy about it.

dankrutka
09-18-2015, 02:17 PM
If we're gonna replace Columbus day with something, then we should hold whomever we name it after to similar standards. Did they ever war with, wipe out, enslave, or kill others?

Hrm, indigenous people are out I guess.

There's a huge difference between someone responsible for starting a completed genocide of a people. And a people having warfare. Which it's worth pointing out that indigenous people's warfare was limited in scope. Tribal warfare is much more akin to gang territorial shifts. Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them.

dankrutka
09-18-2015, 02:21 PM
No, I think Columbus was about the same as everyone else back then.

I suspect you actually haven't studied Columbus much or you wouldn't make such ignorant claims. The things Columbus did were exceptional for his time. His brutality was incredible. He ordered the cutting off of the body parts of indigenous people's who could not find him gold. He stole money from his own crewmates. And he did it all in God's name. Columbus and the men under him were particularly brutal and led to the genocide of a people. There are almost no instances in the history of earth where a genocide was actually completed and those targetted people -- the Arawaks or Tainos -- ceased to exist. So no, Columbus was not "the same as everyone else back then." And that's why this discussion is happening.

jerrywall
09-18-2015, 02:27 PM
There's a huge difference between someone responsible for starting a completed genocide of a people. And a people having warfare. Which it's worth pointing out that indigenous people's warfare was limited in scope. Tribal warfare is much more akin to gang territorial shifts. Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them.

My point is, there's barely any person or people who will stand up to the retrospective passage of time. Standards and societal norms evolve. Now, that's not in defense of Columbus. Personally, if anything, just rename it to "Monday". I'm sick of all these non-holiday holidays.

Dubya61
09-18-2015, 03:20 PM
What would be your criteria for selecting which people deserve days of celebration? I have a hard time believing Columbus would top anyone's list who has actually thought about it. There are many more deserving people.

Bringing in traditions of totally different indigenous people's to justify that "well everyone killed everyone back then" is such a weak and inaccurate historical argument. This may come as a surprise, but all indigenous people are not the same. No no one here has made the suggestion that because of Columbus, no Europeans should ever be celebrated. Columbus' part in the complete genocide of the Arawak people is not standard history of the day... his brutality was exceptional and his justifications (i.e., money, God) were despicable.

You can always tell when someone has a weak argument because they start thowing "liberal" around in their posts instead of constructing an actual argument. I don't mind disagreement, but quit trying to label people because they don't agree with you.

Since I respect your opinions greatly, I would like to reply to this and leave you anonymous. I think that as long as we teach the truth when we teach history (and I think that's what you're advocating) that's enough. Make sure you teach it all and try to avoid opinionizing (I'll TM that word, thank you). I agree with your earlier posts (and some other articles I read on why it should be almost ANYTHING else besides "Columbus" day). Maybe it's time we go the English route and just call the federal holiday in October a generic bank holiday. (or Explorer day (wouldn't Ford love that one), Discovery day -- almost doesn't matter, really. We don't really celebrate the true meaning of most of the named federal holidays anymore).

Dubya61
09-18-2015, 03:26 PM
I think 89er day is complicated. How would you feel if you were a Native American student who understood the history of Boomers who aimed to push your people off their land, and then your teacher required you to participate in part of the historical destruction of your own people? There's a misunderstanding that just because there was unassigned land that it wasn't part of the broader movement to eliminate indigenous ways of life.

It's almost off topic, but one of my favorite books which I recommend like a Mardi Gras float occupant throws out beads is: Hal Borland -- When the Legends Die. A great read, even if directed towards a younger audience than most here.

Snowman
09-18-2015, 05:03 PM
'89 Day celcbrations need to go the way of Columbus Day. Our fellow native citizens don't find the history quaint. remember Fallin's hilarious speech at the gop convention about the land run participants proved ambitious people didn't need help from their government to succeed.

Outside of the 100 year anniversary, I do not remember 89 Day being celebrated.

Swake
09-18-2015, 05:37 PM
We aren't creating Columbus Day today. It has been around for a long time. The standard of creating a new holiday is different from that of maintaining an existing one. At the least, Columbus is an incredibly important historical figure. I agree, if we were picking guys to get their own holiday today, he probably wouldn't get one. But we aren't.



No, I think Columbus was about the same as everyone else back then. And when you're talking about "indigenous people day", I think the actions of other indigenous people should be taken into account. Plus it's still a stupid name.



It's a wholly liberal thing. I think anyone who reads my posts knows that I am very moderate, and rarely throw around those labels. But this is one of the big problems with the left wing. The Republican party has a lot of issues, but this kind of hand-wringing isn't one of them.

You need to read this. He was a monster even in his own time.
8 Myths and Atrocities About Christopher Columbus and Columbus Day - ICTMN.com (http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/10/14/8-myths-and-atrocities-about-christopher-columbus-and-columbus-day-151653)

SouthSide
09-18-2015, 06:18 PM
"Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them." No this has always been a part of human history. It is not unique to Europeans. Pretending all Native Americans and all other "indigenous" people are pure and without blemish is ridiculous.

Swake
09-18-2015, 06:44 PM
"Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them." No this has always been a part of human history. It is not unique to Europeans. Pretending all Native Americans and all other "indigenous" people are pure and without blemish is ridiculous.

Then there's this:


Several accounts of cruelty and murder include Spaniards testing the sharpness of blades on Native people by cutting them in half, beheading them in contests and throwing Natives into vats of boiling soap. There are also accounts of suckling infants being lifted from their mother’s breasts by Spaniards, only to be dashed headfirst into large rocks.
Bartolome De Las Casas, a former slave owner who became Bishop of Chiapas, described these exploits. “Such inhumanities and barbarisms were committed in my sight as no age can parallel,” he wrote. “My eyes have seen these acts so foreign to human nature that now I tremble as I write.”


and


Columbus forced the Natives to work in gold mines until exhaustion. Those who opposed were beheaded or had their ears cut off.

In the provinces of Cicao all persons over 14 had to supply at least a thimble of gold dust every three months and were given copper necklaces as proof of their compliance. Those who did not fulfill their obligation had their hands cut off, which were tied around their necks while they bled to death—some 10,000 died handless.

In two years’ time, approximately 250,000 Indians on Haiti were dead. Many deaths included mass suicides or intentional poisonings or mothers killing their babies to avoid persecution.


and


In the year 1500, Columbus wrote: “A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand.”


and


In the early years of Columbus’ conquests there were butcher shops throughout the Caribbean where Indian bodies were sold as dog food. There was also a practice known as the monterķa infernal, the infernal chase, or manhunt, in which Indians were hunted by war-dogs.

These dogs—who also wore armor and had been fed human flesh, were a fierce match for the Indians. Live babies were also fed to these war dogs as sport, sometimes in front of horrified parents.

Edgar
09-18-2015, 09:02 PM
Outside of the 100 year anniversary, I do not remember 89 Day being celebrated.

Norman has a parade, and the new bridge spanning I-35 is embossed with a land run frieze.

fromdust
09-19-2015, 05:30 PM
If you've never read Howard Zinn's chapter on Columbus then give it a read: Columbus, The Indians, and Human Progress (http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html)

Columbus is incredible important historically for several reasons, but we shouldn't celebrate such brutality.

Well, coming from Zinn we know it will be unbiased and historically accurate, lol

dankrutka
09-19-2015, 10:20 PM
"Europeans brought the idea of conquering and subjugating peoples with them." No this has always been a part of human history. It is not unique to Europeans. Pretending all Native Americans and all other "indigenous" people are pure and without blemish is ridiculous.

My point is more complicated. I'm not romanticizing indigenous peoples as more pure or perfect. I'm pointing out out that empire and large-scale imperialism is particular to European cultures until more recently. It's very complicated and my point isn't to point the finger as to good/bad. Anyway, that's another discussion for another day.

trousers
09-20-2015, 08:25 AM
My point is more complicated. I'm not romanticizing indigenous peoples as more pure or perfect. I'm pointing out out that empire and large-scale imperialism is particular to European cultures until more recently. It's very complicated and my point isn't to point the finger as to good/bad. Anyway, that's another discussion for another day.
Not so sure I agree with this.
Darius I/II, Genghis & Kublai Khan, Attila, the Incas.
To me there is a human propensity to empire building, generally only restrained by the resources available.

dankrutka
09-21-2015, 09:07 AM
Not so sure I agree with this.
Darius I/II, Genghis & Kublai Khan, Attila, the Incas.
To me there is a human propensity to empire building, generally only restrained by the resources available.

It's a complex discussion, but to not derail too far off topic, I'll just say I don't think it's simply human propensity because their are many, many human societies that showed little interest in expansionism that had the means to attempt it. Of course, history books highlight empires more than small-scale communities. Anyway, it's a another discussion.

dankrutka
10-13-2015, 12:26 PM
OKC City Council votes down recognizing Indigenous People's Day. Oklahoma loves branding the state as "Native America" and putting a statute on its domes, but ignores indigenous people who come and ask that the city not honor a psychopath who is responsible for starting the slave trade, torturing people for profit, and the genocide of the Arawak peoples. Particularly disappointed in Mick Cornett and Meg Salyer.

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okc/status/653994732603834368

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okc/status/653995127212388352

Pete
10-13-2015, 12:45 PM
How they voted:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12112373_10103499368509347_3121870639755263207_n.j pg?oh=1e9d61b2f01a0d059fa7c240f464e064&oe=56C5D1BE

dankrutka
10-13-2015, 12:54 PM
This is just kind of baffling to me. Again, Oklahoma touts it's indigenous history and culture. Columbus is as anti-indigenous as anyone in world history. His transgressions are indefensible. This was a no-brainer. Anadarko passed this resolution already. I just don't get it. Did any of the dissenters provide any defense? All 19 speakers spoke passionately for the resolution. What was their justification for ignoring their constituents?