OKC councilman says it's time to have discussion about legalizing prostitution | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/okc-councilman-says-its-time-to-have-discussion-about-legalizing-prostitution/35049034)

You don't have to have a ten foot pole (no pun intended) to discuss the merits of this 'thought provoking' question; many posters won't discuss the pros & cons about this debate.

Let's get serious!

Legalized Prostitution Debate | Debate.org (http://www.debate.org/legalized-prostitution/)

Time to sound off...

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You've got to be kidding me.

Decriminalize protitutes, increase penalties for John's and Pimps. Many of those girls are victims and sex slaves. They're not the criminals.

Complete legalization is a bad idea though.

Would love to hear Brian Bates give his opinion.

Nothing wrong with having a conversation about how best to respond to adult sexual behavior and the consequences of policy thus far. While not exactly the same issue, the legalization of marijuana was once regarded in the same manner.

Just an opinion, if it was regulated it would more than likely be safer in more ways than one. It's a big question though.

I'm probably for the legalization of prostitution.

But as a politician, being aware of your standing in the community and acting in a regard to try and raise that standing is of the utmost priority. Councilman Shadid is an asset to this community only if people take him seriously. He can have valid points and even be right about every single issue he raises, but that doesn't mean that every cross he chooses to die on is a wise one. And not that commentary during an interview is generally "dying on a cross", but when you're in Oklahoma, some subjects are just more prohibitive.

This was a poor political choice that, had this transpired before the most recent round of council elections, would have cost him a seat.

Just so you know, I seriously doubt Shadid will run for re-election.

Ok......seems like we have other things to focus on right now though.

Just so you know, I seriously doubt Shadid will run for re-election.

Even if we're not talking government, the politics of social figures matters, and I hope that Shadid continues to lend his voice in the community. But the community will only respect his voice on their grounds, however flawed those grounds are.

Anyway, it's not the end of the world…just unfortunate…this coming from someone who largely agrees with him.

I agree that this was not politically smart for Ed Shadid. This is a subject that is so taboo that I don't think most people are ready to have a grown-up conversation about it. I agree with jerrywall in that prostitution shouldn't be fully legalized, but it should be decriminalized and the crackdown should be on the pimps.

It isn't taboo with me. With some guys being too homely and boring to get a date, I have nothing against legalizing prostitution. And some men into their 80s or older want sex. What attractive woman would want anything to do with them? Few to none.

If prostitution can be legalized and regulated so it can be removed from streets and out of the hands of pimps and human trafficking , that's additional reasons going for it to legalize it.

Maybe legalizing could mean a run down motel could be remodeled into a big whorehouse. Customers walking by could pick out the whore they want by seeing them posing in the room windows. More likely to happen, though, would be Republicans at the state capitol passing a bill to ban towns and counties from legalizing prostitution.

It's a difficult topic to have a serious conversation about because so many people have made up their mind using totally anecdotal 'evidence' (for and against), bring a heavy religious slant to their perspective or are so far removed from the reality as to have nothing really to contribute to the discussion. FYI - Being a 'John' or watching HBO's Cathouse does not make you a scholar on this topic.

Personally, I'd love one of the colleges to have a class (maybe an intersession) where you discussion the topic of legalization (pros/cons), have members of law enforcement, city government and even former sex workers provide guest speaker input and then the class go through the steps to do a mock legalization and actually see everything that would be involved and the ramifications. Its not as easy as changing the speed limit on I-35.

Its no secret, I've openly said for decades I'd personally support a level of decriminalization of certain forms of prostitution. Specifically, prostitution that is 100% private, consensual, AND unorganized. I would not however ever support legalization under any model I can currently conceive.

The problems with legalization are many. To start with, most people take a very narrow view when it comes to prostitution. They either see all prostitutes as victims or they see them all as consensual adults. Neither is true and you have to acknowledge and accept that to even begin the discussion.

I talk to public groups on a regular basis (colleges, church groups, civic groups, political groups, community organizations, etc.) and the issues brought up by Shadid are the same that are often thrown around with little regard to reality...

It will be 'safer' from a physical violence and sexual transmitted disease perspective.

You will find studies, articles and interviews that provide proof for whichever side of the fence you fall on in this regard. I read about this topic a lot and I've spoken to several women in this country and in foreign countries that work in a legalized system. What I've learned is that the prostitution industry is full of violence regardless if you work on the street or in a regulated brothel. Several countries with legalized prostitution have admitted to this fact and it is one of a handful of reasons over 40% of the previously open brothels in Amsterdam's red light district have been closed by the government. If you think pimps don't work girls in brothels, then you are sadly mistaken.

From a disease perspective you first have to realize that in the USA there is no real health concern, as the instances of STD's are the same as or even lower within prostitution circles as they are in the general population - with the occasional outbreak being reported in some cities. That being said, a large number of street prostitutes report being positive for various STD's.

Furthermore, there is nothing fair or safe about current legalization models when every form of legalized prostitution only requires that the prostitute be tested for disease. The male customer is never tested nor required to be disease free.

Lastly, most people don't realize that in Nevada STD tests are limited to weekly checkups for gonorrhea and Chlamydia and only monthly for HIV and syphilis. Both the prostitute and the John are open for exposure to disease within the windows of opportunity between tests and many STD’s like venereal warts and Herpes are not even tested for.

Don't criminalize the women, go after the 'Johns' and pimps

I see several problems with that stance. For one, it takes at least two to commit the act so why would one co-conspirator not be as legally culpable as the other as long as both are engaging in the act of their own free will? That's like saying drug dealing is legal, but buying it would not be legal (oversimplification - but you get my point). Many people forward this position and then point to what is often referred to as the "Swedish or Nordic Model."

The problem is, very few people have actually studied this policy stance beyond mere headlines and very biased statistics. Studying the Swedish/Nordic Models has its own problems as there is very little real evidence to back up any of the positive claims. For one, most of their numbers are limited to street walkers only and only those within certain recognized zones of prostitution. Additionally, in 2011 the Stockholm police only had 8 officers that made only 42 attempts in an entire year to provide counseling and other help to prostitutes that 'might' consider leaving the profession. In 2009 you could speak to 42 prostitutes on S. Robinson alone in a matter of 4-5 days. I have video evidence of as many as 32 prostitutes working a 10-block area of S. Robinson all at the exact same moment in 2007.

Additionally, how do you want to "be fair" to women choosing to work as a prostitute and then support targeting their customers.

As far as targeting pimps.... Exactly how do you target pimps and human traffickers (there is a difference) without targeting the sex workers themselves in stings?

Even my stance of decriminalizing 100% private, consensual and unorganized prostitution would be tremendously difficult to implement. Exactly how would law enforcement know who is working consensually and unorganized without conducting stings targeting everyone? How would law enforcement uncover forced and child prostitution without simply responding to Backpage ads and targeting everyone?

I could go on for pages and pages, but honestly, this is one of those topics most people have already made their mind up about.

Another sad reality is the fact that our local DA's office has a very hug-a-thug mentality when it comes to pimps and human traffickers.

I document the lax attitude of DA Prater's office often on my website....

You can read several examples of the reality of how pimps and child sex traffickers are dealt with in Oklahoma County at this link (http://johntv.com/tag/okco-pimps-let-go/).

Full on legalization would surely GROW the industry, not shrink it. Prostitutes would move here from other places and local people who wouldn't otherwise consider being prostitutes would be more likely to be drawn in to the industry, and customers would travel here from places where it is illegal (nearly everywhere else). Normally I'm in favor of growing tourism, but that is the wrong kind of tourism. I also think you'd have more locals engaging as customers, which could victimize non-participants such as families and spouses.

Philosophically I'm not completely against the idea, which as has been pointed out basically involves consenting adults, etc. (though as mentioned can impact families), and could be taxed and regulated. But the actual practicality of doing it is suspect at best, and the unintended consequences would be enormous.

I think it's much more likely that we'll see weed legalized in my lifetime.

Will need to do more research on this. Brian Bates has a wealth of knowledge about the subject. Occasionally see him working out at the Downtown YMCA. He was my instructor at Cimarron College (bartending school) here in OKC. I got a chance to know more about the real Brian Bates, a genuine individual, family man who is a valuable asset to our community.

Legalization would have to include both women & men prostitutes to avoid discrimination.

As a Roman Catholic, it's sometimes difficult to remain focused on everyday teaching of my church & faith which sometimes conflict/clash when so much of the world and community revolves like musical chairs as individual rights hit the spotlight.

Not so sure that legalization would grow the industry to the point that there would be a significant impact with an influx of people moving to Oklahoma City; just wonder if there have been any impact studies completed since Clark County, Nevada's legalization of prostitution?

Don't criminalize the women, go after the 'Johns' and pimps

I see several problems with that stance. For one, it takes at least two to commit the act so why would one co-conspirator not be as legally culpable as the other as long as both are engaging in the act of their own free will?

Brian, I'm not even going to claim I have a 100th of the knowledge on this as you do. But, my answer to this is based on so many accounts of stories that interviews I have read from current and former prostitutes, the abuse and life that led them there, and while I know they're not ALL victims, it sure seems like so many of them are. Don't get me wrong, I agree you still would have to get the prostitutes off the street, but why are the ones who are the most abused and victimized the ones who seem to get the harshest penalties? As you pointed out, we seem to do a very poor job of punishing the pimps and the traffickers.

I read a great article from a legal prostitute from Nevada, and she talked about how many of the girls who worked as prostitutes there who were sexually abused from a very young age, passed around by their fathers, and other such horror stories. So while technically those girls are doing if of their own free will, it's more a result of their life that they are trapped in.

I think legalized prostitution will continue to add to the culture that women are property and can be treated as such. And if the strip club culture is any sign of what the culture would be like in legal brothels, it would be absolutely toxic for the women. I know someone who is a bartender at a strip club, and they've mentioned to me that it's not a matter of "if" a new stripper would end up doing drugs and such, but "when". The girls steal from each other, they're abused by the strip club owners, taken advantage of financially, and get no benefits. And the fact of the matter is the average person doesn't care, because "they're just strippers". I can't imagine people caring any more about the welfare of prostitutes.

Ed loves to push the envelope, provoke thought and discussion on fiery topics. This is not going to be "legalized" in our lifetimes in Okla. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it and consider the very good points which can be made in terms of the possible benefits which might flow from a change in the way our society sees this issue. Enjoyed reading Brian's take.

Where would the De Wallen district (Amsterdam) be in OKC?

In the end, there's still a state law against prostitution in Oklahoma. Even if the city eliminated any regulations against it, you'd have to get the state legislature involved to really make it legal. I don't see that happening.

I honestly love to debate this and similar topics. It gets my mind going, forces me to re-evalute my stance and educates me as to all perspectives.

To address a couple of the thoughts so far...


Full on legalization would surely GROW the industry, not shrink it. Prostitutes would move here from other places and local people who wouldn't otherwise consider being prostitutes would be more likely to be drawn in to the industry...

Would it 'grow the industry'? Most likely it would - to a degree. It would certainly entice individuals into the sex industry whom otherwise probably would not have. However, its obviously not too big of a draw because Nevada only has a few hundred legally licensed prostitutes in the entire state. Plus, the last time I checked there were only just around two dozen legal brothels operating (and the number tends to shrink each year, not grow). The negative impact on the state would depend on the level of legalization - Do we have large organized brothels and red light districts or do we only allow unorganized one-on-one commercial transactions in the privacy of one's home or motel room?

As far as the state's reputation and tourism.... Being known as the place to buy women is also a reason Amsterdam's legalized brothels are shrinking in number as opposed to expanding.

Having legalized prostitution in rural parts of Nevada certainly hasn't resulted in people clamoring to populate those areas because they see them as a financial mecca or a place to raise a family or retire.


I also think you'd have more locals engaging as customers, which could victimize non-participants such as families and spouses.

True. But the naysayers will point to alcohol, gambling, strip clubs, etc. and say those can be just as devastating on a family.


I think it's much more likely that we'll see weed legalized in my lifetime.

I agree. And, I'd vote for it!


Legalization would have to include both women & men prostitutes to avoid discrimination.

Absolutely. I tend to just speak of females engaged in prostitution only because I don't have nearly as much knowledge of male prostitution. Additionally, its been shown that male prostitution (servicing other males or females) is a tiny fraction of female prostitution. But it happens - both consensually and by force.


...just wonder if there have been any impact studies completed since Clark County, Nevada's legalization of prostitution?

Prostitution is illegal in Clark County (Las Vegas). Measuring the impact on the rural counties where it is allowed is hard to judge. Keep in mind, brothel owners only pay taxes to their county. The states only receives a tiny yearly licensing fee. Even the largest well known brothels report not paying that much in fees to their county. Its been awhile since I looked, but I can recall The Bunny Ranch only paying less than $80,000 to the county and maybe $20,000 to health officials. I recall some study that claims a county does make about 18-28% of its revenue from brothel fees. But, you have to put that into perspective (these are small rural counties). I'd guess a county may make no more than $500,000 per year if there are several larger brothels in their area.

Considering you don't see these counties expanding and growing at a rapid rate, I'd say the impact is modest.

Nevada though is a very good example of why legalization as a solution is a myth. Even with legalized brothels accessible in the state, illegal prostitution flourishes and grows annually.


...why are the ones who are the most abused and victimized the ones who seem to get the harshest penalties? As you pointed out, we seem to do a very poor job of punishing the pimps and the traffickers.

Well, I don't know if that's really true on average. I can point to individual cases where very abused girls did seem to get harsh penalties while others do not. On average I find that if you don't have a prior criminal record the worst you are looking at (as a prostitute or a John) is a deferred sentence and a small fine. Repeat offenders or those with priors tend to get a slightly harsher penalty (suspended sentences as opposed to deferred). It is almost unheard of for a prostitute to be sentenced to jail when her only offense is prostitution. When I do see jail sentences it is usually an attempt to zero out time already served because they couldn't or didn't make bond and simply stay in jail waiting to go before a judge.

That said, in rare instances, the system can still be very unfair towards victims.

I work very closely with two girls right now. One, "Stacey", was federally convicted of crimes related to being a child sex trafficker and the other, "Nicole", is a young woman who has 4 felony and 3 misdemeanor state cases for prostitution.

Stacey is 100% a victim. She lost her mother to cancer at a young age and was introduced to prostitution and drugs by the age of 12. She was handed off to pimp after pimp until just a couple of years ago (in her 20's) when she was busted in a sting. She was prosecuted federally for trying to lure a 17 year old female into prostitution. The 17yr old was an undercover cop. Court records clearly show Stacey was simply doing as she was told by her coward pimp who waited around the corner. Despite that fact she was still forced to plead guilty. The judge took pity on her and she received 10 years probation, while her pimp was sentenced to prison. However, she forever has a criminal record for being a human trafficker. I reached out to Stacey after her conviction through Facebook (did not know her previously). She accepted my offer to help and I introduced her to No Boundaries. From there we tried to show her the respect and love that she has never had before. I'm so proud of her. She got a job at a local sandwich chain, got her own apartment and I helped her to secure the funds to get a car - she had been walking and taking the bus to/from work, which took 2 hours each way. She recently got an even better job. While she is a fighter, the legal system has forever placed a burden upon her she will never shed.

Nicole was in her early 20's when her pimp was arrested and sent to prison. She used that opportunity to move out of state and go to college. She was trained in a health related field but later told by a school counselor her criminal record would mean she may never find a job in her desired field. She reached out to me because she knew me from Robinson and knew she didn't have to be embarrassed to speak to me about her situation. I told her about HB1058 and found her a lawyer that agreed to work on her behalf for free. I then secured the money needed to cover the fees to have her record expunged and sealed under HB1058 as a human trafficking victim. This is a case where recent changes in state law allowed for her to get a second chance - something Stacey will not qualify for because she was prosecuted federally. Nicole will hopefully soon be a single mom making $50,000 plus a year. Something she never before thought she could do legally. While HB1058 is great, there are still issues with it. Most victims don't know about it and are never told by prosecutors. When they do learn of it they often cannot afford it. You have to secure a lawyer, and even if you get a cheap or free one, there are the court fees. In Nicole's case the fees added up to over $3,000.


I read a great article from a legal prostitute from Nevada, and she talked about how many of the girls who worked as prostitutes there who were sexually abused from a very young age, passed around by their fathers, and other such horror stories. So while technically those girls are doing if of their own free will, it's more a result of their life that they are trapped in.


This is a very difficult concept for many people to get. Being sexually abused from a young age and a lack of parenting is often the key factor that leads women into prostitution. While some appear to be consenting adults, they are very much victims of circumstance. How culpable should they be held for their prostitution crimes? Its a case-by-case basis. But I certainly don't think we should offer it as an actual choice for our young people.

Ed loves to push the envelope, provoke thought and discussion on fiery topics. This is not going to be "legalized" in our lifetimes in Okla.

I bet a lot of people said the same thing about casinos in Oklahoma during the 1990s. The church people would never allow such an immoral thing.

Surely, prostitution is against state law, so it's quite doubtful cities can fully legalize it. Even so, I won't be surprised if the state legislature would want to pass a law that would prohibit state cities and counties from legalizing prostitution.

I bet a lot of people said the same thing about casinos in Oklahoma during the 1990s. The church people would never allow such an immoral thing.

Surely, prostitution is against state law, so it's quite doubtful cities can fully legalize it. Even so, I won't be surprised if the state legislature would want to pass a law that would prohibit state cities and counties from legalizing prostitution.

Yes, but those came into existence as a result of the Federal gov't compact with the tribes. Diff deal here.

All good points here. With that in mind, even as someone who is socially moderate-to-liberal, I cannot in any way shape or form support legalized prostitution.

Last year, a 2nd cousin of mine was hanging out with the wrong crowd. We had warned her several times to drop these people but she didn't listen....19 year olds think they know everything. We have never gotten a straight story but it went something like this: she bummed some money off of these so called friends of her. When it came time to repay it back, she didn't have it. So what do these friends of her do? Basically kidnap her, drive her to a terrible part of Dallas, and expect her to turn tricks until she pays off her debt. We were able to locate her before she did anything, but I have a feeling this is far more common. THIS is the reality of prostitution: the desperate sacrificing their own bodies, usually by force, as a means to an end. It is most certainly not a "victim-less crime." I don't see how legalizing this is somehow going to change it. If anything, it will just encourage it.

Also, as an aside, why does Ed Shadid constantly pick these unwinnable battles? There are so many things a more socially liberal voice could be used in OKC and this is the hill he wants to die on? I have long since given up on Mr. Shadid being more that a pot-stirrer, but as someone with high hopes for him at first, its still disappointing. I feel like posting that Tyra Banks clip here (We were all ROOTING for you!!).

Ed loves to push the envelope, provoke thought and discussion on fiery topics. This is not going to be "legalized" in our lifetimes in Okla. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it and consider the very good points which can be made in terms of the possible benefits which might flow from a change in the way our society sees this issue. Enjoyed reading Brian's take.

Where would the De Wallen district (Amsterdam) be in OKC?
We as citizens can, but Ed is an elected official and I'd rather him not waste time on things that simply aren't going to happen. There's only so much time people will pay attention to local politics, and this is empty calories.

A good debate on what should be in MAPS 4 vs. GO bond is a better use of time.
How to form a private/public partnership to fund HSR from downtown okc to downtown tulsa is a better use of time.

One of the best threads I've read in awhile. Very thought provoking about a subject most folks don't want to even acknowledge.

...Would it 'grow the industry'? Most likely it would - to a degree. It would certainly entice individuals into the sex industry whom otherwise probably would not have. However, its obviously not too big of a draw because Nevada only has a few hundred legally licensed prostitutes in the entire state. Plus, the last time I checked there were only just around two dozen legal brothels operating (and the number tends to shrink each year, not grow). The negative impact on the state would depend on the level of legalization - Do we have large organized brothels and red light districts or do we only allow unorganized one-on-one commercial transactions in the privacy of one's home or motel room?

As far as the state's reputation and tourism.... Being known as the place to buy women is also a reason Amsterdam's legalized brothels are shrinking in number as opposed to expanding.

Having legalized prostitution in rural parts of Nevada certainly hasn't resulted in people clamoring to populate those areas because they see them as a financial mecca or a place to raise a family or retire...

I think the difference is that those brothels are barely driveable from anywhere. If you are going to travel to Nevada to frequent prostitutes you pretty much have to fly. Sure, some folks do that, but probably most of their business consists of people visiting Vegas for Vegas, who then seek the novelty of the brothels outside of town while they are there.

The X factor in the discussion is Dallas and the large population in North Texas. There is a reason why WinStar has the largest casino floor in the entire world, and it has precious little to do with Oklahomans. Dallas-to-OKC is not even a day trip. Someone could take the morning off, drive to OKC and be back at their desk in DFW by noon. Beyond that there are millions more people in all directions, an easy drive from here.

The other thing that probably keeps the number of legal sex workers down in Nevada is that ILLEGAL prostitution is in many ways decriminalized. There is certainly apparently no shortage of escorts in Vegas; walk down the Strip and see how many thinly-disguised solicitations are shoved in your hand in the form of flyers. If it were actually LEGAL in Vegas I'm sure the number would be in the thousands, not in the hundreds, and those are the people already working there.

I honestly believe if you made OKC an island of legal prostitution in the central U.S. you would have a pretty huge industry very quickly. And those aren't the kind of jobs and economic development we are looking for.

Got to admit, I've learned more from the voices on this thread about prostitution than I ever wanted to know.

Brian Bates is someone who understands what many of these women have endured as well as many of the legal aspects. He has compassion for the vice grip placed upon many young women who became victims trapped in this tapestry; he has been there--also reached out to them.

If you don't think that Brian hasn't put his own health & life in danger or been scrutinized by our own OCPD because he happen to catch one of their own; then, you need to re-evaluate the work he has done for our community.

The videos that are in his collection would allow anyone to retire (live off the interest) if he so chose to sell out for a documentary to a national telecast network--you know he has had offers. He has been featured on MSNBC's 'Caught on Camera' for those of you who are unaware of his national exposure.

Hope many posters on this board have a new perspective of Mr. Bates as a result of the work he has done for our community.

We as citizens can, but Ed is an elected official and I'd rather him not waste time on things that simply aren't going to happen. There's only so much time people will pay attention to local politics, and this is empty calories.

A good debate on what should be in MAPS 4 vs. GO bond is a better use of time.
How to form a private/public partnership to fund HSR from downtown okc to downtown tulsa is a better use of time.

Hell empty calories are my middle name!!:p

Whatever your take you gotta admit Ed took a bold stand on this one. I freely admit I don't know squat about prostituion. It seems to me though no amount of criminalization will ever stop it so why not figure out the best way to manage it as a society.

^^^^^^^
Don't disagree, but not sure City Council is the correct venue for that discussion. As has been mentioned things would REALLY have to change at the state level first, and the national discourse would have to change even before that. If we know one thing about our state government, it's that it doesn't lead when it comes to innovation OR the decriminalization of vice.

I honestly believe if you made OKC an island of legal prostitution in the central U.S. you would have a pretty huge industry very quickly. And those aren't the kind of jobs and economic development we are looking for.
The chronic lack of support for education in Oklahoma, leading to not enough qualified workers, isn't going to support the decent kind of jobs and economic development we are looking for. However, it does work to make Oklahoma no. 3 for minimum wage jobs. At least most prostitutes would surely make a lot more than minimum wage.

All good points here. With that in mind, even as someone who is socially moderate-to-liberal, I cannot in any way shape or form support legalized prostitution.



Then what do you want done to better fight prostitution? Impose mandatory jail sentences of at least one year or two for every john and prostitute convicted?

I freely admit I don't know squat about prostituion. It seems to me though no amount of criminalization will ever stop it so why not figure out the best way to manage it as a society.

Humanities attempts at legislating morals have all been failures. Laws don't stop people from making poor personal decisions. They just place a financial burden on those of us that live our lives responsibly in an attempt to enforce them.

So I agree with this line of thought 100%. Create ways to help those that want to find a way out of the lifestyle, whether they have been forced into it or entered into it of their own free will, but understand that no amount of legislation will ever stop it or rescue everyone from it.

Then what do you want done to better fight prostitution? Impose mandatory jail sentences of at least one year or two for every john and prostitute convicted?

And this is why something never gets done. Someone always jumps in with "what's you magic solution". Guess what? There isn't one. Complex social issues require complex solutions. People need to accept this.

1. You have to change the culture. Boys need to be brought up to understand that women aren't property, they aren't "owed" sex, and that sex isn't something you buy. This will take time. Read "rape culture".

2. We have to make progress in the social conditions that force women into prostitution. Rape, abuse, slavery, etc. This has to be address.

3. Yes, penalties should be addressed. Especially for johns, pimps, traffickers, and yes, repeat prostitution offenders.

Public shaming also works well. I'm sure there are other pieces to the solution and probably better ones, that someone like Brian could provide. But demanding a bumper sticker solution to complex problems is why nothing ever gets accomplished.

Humanities attempts at legislating morals have all been failures. Laws don't stop people from making poor personal decisions. They just place a financial burden on those of us that live our lives responsibly in an attempt to enforce them.

So I agree with this line of thought 100%. Create ways to help those that want to find a way out of the lifestyle, whether they have been forced into it or entered into it of their own free will, but understand that no amount of legislation will ever stop it or rescue everyone from it.

While some people (a lot actually) take this as a 'moral issue', it goes way beyond that. I couldn't define morality if I wanted to - it means different things to different people.

It's not as simple as "creating ways to help those what want out...." Those ways already exist and have for some time. We have multiple shelters in this state that will take a prostituted woman in and take care of her. That's the Lifetime Movie script to solving prostitution.

In reality some of our legislation very much makes a positive impact on women victimized by prostitution. Mandatory sentencing and HB1058 are two unbelievable advances in helping to fight this problem.

I also don't get why people feel that since "you're never going to end it" that that means we just have to throw our hands up and legalize it.

While some people (a lot actually) take this as a 'moral issue', it goes way beyond that. I couldn't define morality if I wanted to - it means different things to different people.

True but the laws are based on someones morality. Someone at some point in time deemed a human selling their body to be immoral and voila... The law was created to try and stop it.


It's not as simple as "creating ways to help those what want out...." Those ways already exist and have for some time. We have multiple shelters in this state that will take a prostituted woman in and take care of her. That's the Lifetime Movie script to solving prostitution.

I never said it would be simple. There is absolutely nothing simple about it. If there was it would not be a problem. If there are already options in place they could be enhanced or increased. As I said... Not all the victims can be saved.


In reality some of our legislation very much makes a positive impact on women victimized by prostitution. Mandatory sentencing and HB1058 are two unbelievable advances in helping to fight this problem.

I am not familiar with what that Bill does but if it defends a humans freedom. Then it is a good law.


I also don't get why people feel that since "you're never going to end it" that that means we just have to throw our hands up and legalize it.

I didn't say throw anyones hands up. I said that legislating morality has never worked to end the behavior that society deems to be immoral.... Prostitution, slavery, and murder have been around since the dawn of humankind on this planet... I'm guessing they will be around until we finally screw up and eradicate ourselves from existence. Despite any laws we pass attempting to stop them.

The funny thing about laws is they don't stop any kind of behavior. They just define how we deal with those that choose to exhibit that behavior.... We can pass a law making human trafficking a capital offense but there will still be people willing to break that law.

Opposition to legalization for many is a moral issue, but not what you're stating. For many, like myself, it's not about opposing anything sexual, or folks using their own body. But I sure as hell am morally opposed to sex slavery, human trafficking, and abuse. And that's what legalization would increase.

As you mention, murder and slavery still happen despite laws. Should we legalize those too? Let's just regulate murder better?

As you mention, murder and slavery still happen despite laws. Should we legalize those too? Let's just regulate murder better?

Well I find that to be an absurd question.... As I said... Laws define how society deals with people that exhibit a certain behavior..... Slavery and murder both deprive a human of their freedom and should be punished severely.

Capital punishment is about as severe a punishment as a law can provide yet it doesn't stop murder... It stops one murderer from ever doing it again.

Well, I may have misread your post, but it seemed to imply since the laws don't prevent it, legalize it. I agree, laws don't stop anything. We don't create laws to prevent crimes, we create laws to punish crimes.

That's why laws have to be combined with social reforms.

We don't create laws to prevent crimes, we create laws to punish crimes.

Yes... That is what I was saying.

This is 5 years old now but deals with issue you guys are discussing.

http://sentencingproject.org/doc/Deterrence%20Briefing%20.pdf

Got to admit, I've learned more from the voices on this thread about prostitution than I ever wanted to know.

Brian Bates is someone who understands what many of these women have endured as well as many of the legal aspects. He has compassion for the vice grip placed upon many young women who became victims trapped in this tapestry; he has been there--also reached out to them.

If you don't think that Brian hasn't put his own health & life in danger or been scrutinized by our own OCPD because he happen to catch one of their own; then, you need to re-evaluate the work he has done for our community.

The videos that are in his collection would allow anyone to retire (live off the interest) if he so chose to sell out for a documentary to a national telecast network--you know he has had offers. He has been featured on MSNBC's 'Caught on Camera' for those of you who are unaware of his national exposure.

Hope many posters on this board have a new perspective of Mr. Bates as a result of the work he has done for our community.

I appreciate the conversation and the contribution of Brian Bates on this thread but this post conflicts with my recollection of events. Wasn't Mr. Bates arrested and convicted on felony conspiracy to engage in prostitution charges after hiring prostitutes to entrap men into soliciting prostitution while Mr. Bates filmed. I thought that there was an agreement with a national television show to buy the film and the disruption of that arrangement among other issues led to retribution against Police Chief Citty where Mr. Bates posted his private info such as address and phone number online etc...
My concern is that shame in this case is not just being used as a deterrent but as a means to profit and more recent efforts to film encounters with a drone may breach the same issues in addition to any potential violation of FAA/city rules.

This topic will be a tough one to discuss, at almost any level. But, from the posts above I believe everyone is already looking at it all wrong. Whether you are morally "for"......or morally "against" prostitution, it seems as if it is still seen as a taboo trade. Even those that seem to possibly be in favor of said trade, seem to still want to have the "brothels" in certain locations. Or make sure, that the business itself is well marked, and/or "designated" within the community. I guess those in favor would also want there to be some kind of "licensing" of sorts, for those in the profession. In my eyes however, in the true spirit of "Prostitution," a legalized "FREE MARKET" should be just that. Everyone is so Debbie Downer on prostitutes, saying that they were abused at a young age..or that they are enslaved. What if a chick just like the D? Why shouldn't she be able to profit from that? In a new and improved "legalized" World, what would stop a 25 year old married mother of 2, working at Chesapeake during the day, going to church on Sundays...feeling the need to make some extra cash? She should be able to make a quick buck on the way home from work. Maybe she is at the mall, and sees a pair of $400 shoes that she really wants..but instead of taking money out of her families pocket....and spending their hard earned money on shoes....she can pick out some random guy there at the mall, and solicit him. Take him to the parking lot....get banged.......make a few hundred dollars, and get some new shoes....all the while, making some random guy happy as well. No harm...no foul. Yet...Everyone wants to cast judgement upon a prostitute, and say that she must have been abused as a child? Or that she is enslaved? That's a crappy mindset. In a Free Market..anyone that wants to buck, should be able to buck...and if they're good at what they do, they can make a buck. There is just a price to pay.

There shouldn't be any labels. There shouldn't be "pimps," or "johns" or "brothels" or "corporations." There shouldn't be any "titles" It should be a free market...and individuals should be their own LLC's.... just walking around asking random people if they wanna buck.

Well, that's certainly one way to look at it.

I appreciate the conversation and the contribution of Brian Bates on this thread but this post conflicts with my recollection of events. Wasn't Mr. Bates arrested and convicted on felony conspiracy to engage in prostitution charges after hiring prostitutes to entrap men into soliciting prostitution while Mr. Bates filmed. I thought that there was an agreement with a national television show to buy the film and the disruption of that arrangement among other issues led to retribution against Police Chief Citty where Mr. Bates posted his private info such as address and phone number online etc...
My concern is that shame in this case is not just being used as a deterrent but as a means to profit and more recent efforts to film encounters with a drone may breach the same issues in addition to any potential violation of FAA/city rules.

Your recollection of events is absurd to say the least......

The charges were dropped (3x actually) - First when the judge threw them out. They were refiled and then the DA himself dropped them. Then they went to a grand jury and were eventually dropped all together after the mother and sister of the accuser came forward to testify in my defense because she had admitted to them she had made it all up thinking she could sue and make money. On the day of the hearing they agreed to drop all the charges if I would plead guilty to any misdemeanor of my choosing. I literally had to provide the misdemeanor because the DA (from another county) couldn't come up with one and was told by his boss they couldn't drop the charges without some sort of concession on my part. After recessing for some time, the only thing I could come up with was that I sometimes don't turn the tapes in from the busts. The DA agreed to call that misdemeanor obstruction of justice. For whatever reason it didn't fit the elements of the crime so they changed it to obstruction of a police officer. Even the judge questioned the validity of that being an actual offense (would be like charging the cashier of a 7-11 with a crime for not turning over a tape of a shoplifter). Regardless I agreed to it because its true - so true in fact that I intentionally still don't turn some tapes over. And I do it with the full confidence they will never charge me with it. The case was later expunged and deleted from all court and police records.

So, yeah, your assertions of felony conviction is a bit off to say the least. You have also choose to not recollect that the DA at the time was chomping at the bit to find anything to charge me with because of the police beating I taped and my very public negative stance towards the DA's office for sometime thereafter. Even a ADA who left the DA's to work out of state publicly acknowledged to the media it was a witch hunt and far too many resources were spent on a personal vendetta. DA Lane paid for a study out of his re-election fund to find out why he lost the election. I have a copy of that study (provided to me by someone friendly to me in his campaign). The study found that the charges he brought against me (and my wife) were a major contributor to why he was not re-elected.

As for "an agreement with a national television show to buy the film" - not sure what you are talking about. I do and have licensed my footage to nationally and internationally productions companies for almost 20-years. A national film crew is coming to OKC later this month in fact. DA Lane eluded to my contracts with national and internationally media and even claimed to have an audio recording of me making these deals and making deals with hookers. I went on the news and told him to release those tapes if he had them, because I knew he was lying. During the discovery part of the case prosecutors admitted that there was no tape.

As for posting Police Chief Citty's address etc. - I've never known his home address or phone number - so, yeah. That never happened.

Its amazing how far off your 'recollection' is - I'm guessing its been tainted by some pretty heavy bias.

I've been using shame because its been shown to work to a measurable degree with the Johns and its one of the few things a citizen can do on their own. However, its really not so much shame as simply shinning a light on the reality of what goes on, raising public awareness, moving the social conscious and keeping the discussion going.

The fact I've been doing this to the degree I have without so much as suffering a scratch, never loosing a lawsuit and only being targeted once by prosecutors (and coming away better for it) is a pretty stellar record if you ask me.

@Filthy,

The first part of the problem is, it appears you are talking about 100% consensual prostitution and the reality is that a measurable amount of prostitution is not 100% consensual. So, make your 100% consensual prostitution legal if you want, but don't do it thinking this "FREE MARKET" is going to positively impact non-consensual prostitution. And, because it won't positively impact non-consensual prostitution I'd never support it.

Also, keep in mind, I follow every single prostitution arrest in Oklahoma County. The overwhelming bulk of those arrests come from street prostitution, massage parlors, phone book, craigslist and Backpage (with Backpage being by far top on that list). There are literally dozens of 'higher end' websites that never experience any busts at all and are well known and monitored by local and state law enforcement. Those sites are member driven and are overwhelmingly the exact scenario you mention above (professional female by day, prostitute by night). You almost never even get hints of non-consensual prostitution happening (the members would report it in their 'reviews' and that sort of prostitution is frowned upon).

So, in reality, police already have decriminalized prostitution to some extent by allowing this higher end version to go unchallenged.

Regardless, the idea that it should be legal to simply solicit in public and then "get banged" in the mall parking lot is pretty out there.

@Filthy,

And, because it won't positively impact non-consensual prostitution I'd never support it.

So, in reality, police already have decriminalized prostitution to some extent by allowing this higher end version to go unchallenged.

Regardless, the idea that it should be legal to simply solicit in public and then "get banged" in the mall parking lot is pretty out there.

Now, please understand that I don't have a leg to stand upon, when discussing this subject matter. I obviously don't know the "ins and outs," of prostitution like yourself, but just throwing out ideas, suggestions, and/or theories for the sake of discussion. I guess I don't understand how or why this wouldn't impact the "non-consensual" prostitution. I would think that it would immediately make it a profitless endeavor for your typical "street" pimps. But once again...I have NO idea how the inner workings of all of this really goes.

I would just guess that the market value/and or the profit margins to be made off of a washed up crack whore, would all but disappear if your cliental can just go legally bend over some Edmond soccer mom for a few hundred bucks anytime they so choose.

Man, you're really earning your handle in this thread, Filthy...

Man, you're really earning your handle in this thread, Filthy...

I aim to please

Now, please understand that I don't have a leg to stand upon, when discussing this subject matter. I obviously don't know the "ins and outs," of prostitution like yourself, but just throwing out ideas, suggestions, and/or theories for the sake of discussion. I guess I don't understand how or why this wouldn't impact the "non-consensual" prostitution. I would think that it would immediately make it a profitless endeavor for your typical "street" pimps. But once again...I have NO idea how the inner workings of all of this really goes.

I would just guess that the market value/and or the profit margins to be made off of a washed up crack whore, would all but disappear if your cliental can just go legally bend over some Edmond soccer mom for a few hundred bucks anytime they so choose.

The evidence of legalizations failure to solve the problem of non-consensual prostitution is everywhere when people stop listening to the anecdotes and start looking at the reality. Amsterdam has closed over 40% of its previously legal brothels because of the infiltration of pimps, human traffickers, and violence. A 2012 study from the London School of Economics and Political Science found that countries with legalized prostitution had a higher rate of human trafficking than countries where prostitution is largely prohibited. In 2013 Der Spiegel did an excellent 5-part investigative piece on how Germany's attempt to make prostitution safer through legalization failed. Switzerland in 2011 had to severely tighten its legalized prostitution laws because of growing citizen complaints and out of control infiltration of pimps, traffickers, and organized crime. And then there was the 2014 Washington Times feature on how the Swedish Model was mostly a myth when measuring its success.

Even with legal brothels about an hour away from Vegas, Vegas itself is still overrun with illegal prostitution.

All of this supports my belief that legalization as a solution is a myth.

All of this supports my belief that legalization as a "solution" is a myth.

I guess that depends on what you personally want the solution to be.



-Amsterdam has closed over 40% of its previously legal brothels because of the infiltration of pimps, human traffickers, and violence.

-A 2012 study from the London School of Economics and Political Science found that countries with legalized prostitution had a higher rate of human trafficking than countries where prostitution is largely prohibited.

-Vegas itself is still overrun with illegal prostitution.

-All of this supports my belief that legalization as a solution is a myth.

Well of course "designated areas" of legal prostitution, will see significant increase in these illegal/violent activities. I would assume, that they would quickly be overrun with Pimps, Playas, Scally Hoos, or Rooty Boos. No different than a hole in the bottom of a boat..the water is going to find the path of least resistance...and every bit of water than can possible go to that one area of the boat...will get there in a hurry.

Hypothetically Speaking.....If I'm in Dallas...and I'm a Pimp...and I find out OKC is going to legalize prostitution, you better GD believe that I'm loading up all the womenz in the back seat of my Caddy, and headed that way pronto! I'd have shop set up within 24 hours. But, if you globally legalize prostitution....I'm probably staying put in Dallas...and going back to selling weed, and working at Burger King to pay my beeper bill.

In other words......"The game still remains.......but the game just ain't the same!"

All jokes aside, I do realize that this is a real issue, and it's somewhat distasteful to make lite of the situation. So, I will let the grow ups continue to discuss this one if need be.

I'm still all for prostitution being legalized in some way. Homely guys ought to have the right to counter their lack of sex appeal with money. And women who choose to, fully deserve just compensation for having anything to do with a guy they wouldn't, otherwise, touch with a 10 ft. pole.

I'm still all for prostitution being legalized in some way. Homely guys ought to have the right to counter their lack of sex appeal with money. And women who choose to, fully deserve just compensation for having anything to do with a guy they wouldn't, otherwise, touch with a 10 ft. pole.

Its that already available via sites like SugarDaddy and AshleyMadison?